mini 943- Greek Mythology! (And the winner is... ?)

[DeathNote]

Vote Count

Shadow Dancer- Plum, Jack, VasudeVa, greenindirt (L-3)
MindGamer- Flava Flave (L-5)
VasudeVa- Bio Hazard (L-6)
Plum- Johoohno (L-6)
Johoohno- Mindgamer, Iecerint (L-5)
Iecerint- Snow_Bunny (L-6)
Snow_Bunny- Shadow Dancer (L-6)

With 12 alive, its 7 to lynch.

[Shattered Viewpoint]

Early read is Mindgamer -town (unless someone has meta on him which would indicate he's not very cautious, if at all, as scum).

I don't personally get a ring of scumminess/untruthiness/whatever with Green's first vote. That;s not reflective of Iec because that was before he got his Role PM; I also disagree that Jo was trying to frame his actions at scummy with the 34/36 thing. Read it as just trying to prod for any info that could be gotten in this stage.

Out of TWENTY players, you really expect to get away with only giving some info on one and some offhand quasi-analysis on another? Please. I've seen you play. Stop lurking. Now.

[Iecerint]

Um.

1. You are not very cooperative.
2. There are 12 players.
3. Why the focus on Plum?
4. That is only your 3rd post.
5. Carry on.

[Jack]

[Iecerint]

[Jack]

I'm laughing at "TWENTY players"...

[Plum]

Honestly, there wasn't that much I felt warranted commenting on in my previous post. Do you want me to try to lay out exactly why I think that Iec's opinion that GiD was lying about his reason for his random vote isn't correct? It simply doesn't read that way to me; and in that case, all the argument about why it would be scummy to do such a thing is theory discussion I don't find useful to the situation at hand.

It's clear, as it was two days ago. that SD's dice vote was not alignment-indicative.

Put simply, SV, I didn't see anything conclusively scummy and nothing had yet pinged my scumdar. Sorry to disappoint you (and by the way, don't think we've played, so since when have you been stalking me ?).

Although, looking back, my question ought to have been at you, SV - I agree that lying is inherently anti-Town, but GiD never admitted to lying about his reason for his random vote; he denied it while trying to understand Iec's logic for saying he did.

I'm confused by what you mean by effective writing. I get what you mean, that you think I voted for wagon A over B for reason X, but I give the reason Y, ie.

I give a different reason than what the real reason was.

I'm confused over the definition you are giving to Y and X.

Lying is inherently anti-town.

Why would you lie to us?

You used selective bolding there to insinuate that GiD admitted to lying. He didn't, as should be clear; in that post he was trying to confirm Iec's thought process.

Unvote; Vote: Shattered Viewpoint

.

Hm, and other people noticed it , too. Wonder why they didn't find it as scummy as I feel it is.

Vas, if you thought SD looked like predictable scum, why did you unvote and leave your vote on no one while saying that one more predictable thing from SD would've earned your vote? Who was your top suspect at the time? Nevermind, this got covered. Still. Odd.

Joh, I didn't have a suspect but ought to have noticed SV's misrep at that time. Taking another whole skim of the game, yeah. Otherwise there wasn't anything that bothered me, so I gave what I could.

Early read is Mindgamer -town (unless someone has meta on him which would indicate he's not very cautious, if at all, as scum).

I don't get having a town read at all at this stage, but where the heck in MG's

two

posts did you get a town read? How has he been "not cautious"?

He openly said he was Town-aligned. I know that it's WIFOMy - really, I do - but the way my gut read that WIFOM is that scum would be more cautious about doing that the way he did. It's an early-game read, but I think it's a legitimate thought.

I;m trying to go through the cogs of the long Jack/Iec(/Joh) debate about SD but I'm getting like nothing useful out of it.

Hey, SV, why no vote? You've not voted all game. If you're in a slight snit about me, what's keeping you from voting? And yeah, as Iec said, your argument that I'm lurking and not contributing is awfully, awfully hypocritical. You confirm, you misrep GiD to try to imply that he admitted to lying

but don't vote him

and then you pick me out, make some accusations

and don't vote me

. . . yeah.

[Shattered Viewpoint]

Regarding "TWENTY" versus 12, I don't suppose any of you have heard of hyperbole? No? Hadn't thought so.

@Plum: I am very careful with my vote. I don't believe that it should be thrown around willy-nilly; when I have a serious place to place it, you will see it.

[Jack]

I don't believe that was hyperbole. It makes much more sense for you to have just typed the wrong number by accident. Why say it was hyperbole?

[Iecerint]

Plum, I agree with you about SV, but I think Joh pretty much did the same thing in his iso 3 where he insinuated that my pre-PM actions made me scummy:

@ Iecerint: Explain what happened between post 34 to 36 to make you change your vote.

@ Jack: Would you say that Iecerint is following you or do you read his play between post 30 to 36 in another way?

The second bit is either a pretty silly question, or he thought the alleged following was scummy. So I don't think he was innocently trying to get more information as you prior indicated.

It also isn't probable that Joh just forgot that I hadn't gotten my PM at that time:

I'm a fan of being eager, however, I expect a new post from Iecerint very soon to help us read his role and not only his mood.

This earlier post indicates that he was aware that I did not have my PM during the relevant time.

So that's why I only indicated that SV was misrepresenting rather than going further before.

[Iecerint]

lol @ SV.

Unvote; Vote: SV

. That is scummy for the same reason that GiD's RVS rationale was scummy.

[greenindirt]

Hm, and other people noticed it , too. Wonder why they didn't find it as scummy as I feel it is.

I noticed and thought it did appear scummy, but I didn't want to make a vote that could be biased because he attacked me. So, I called him out on it, wanting him to respond. He didn't and still hasn't addressed the issue which I find to be interesting.

Out of TWENTY players, you really expect to get away with only giving some info on one and some offhand quasi-analysis on another? Please. I've seen you play. Stop lurking. Now.

Yes, you have been the paragon of posting and are in a position to comment on others activeness, or lack of. Also, as pointed out, not twenty.

Regarding "TWENTY" versus 12, I don't suppose any of you have heard of hyperbole? No? Hadn't thought so.

You know, saying twenty instead of twelve, isn't really hyperbole even if you had meant it. Did you mean it? Because it looks more like you made a mistake. If this is the case, why not just admit to making a mistake?

I am very careful with my vote. I don't believe that it should be thrown around willy-nilly; when I have a serious place to place it, you will see it.

With nobody near a lynch, I am not as cautious with my vote. However, I wish to see SD comment on events so: FoS SV

Going over the Jack/Iec dialogue now.

[greenindirt]

That is scummy for the same reason that GiD's RVS rationale was scummy.

I see this coming up again so I'll give my thoughts on it now instead of later.

I disagree and here's why.
The explanation of hyperbole doesn't make much sense. 20 instead of 12 isn't very effective hyperbole nor does it really fit the definition, so hyperbole as an excuse doesn't make sense.
My explanation does make sense. I checked the time difference between my post and Vas' and it was a difference of 9 minutes. It isn't illogical.
SV might come under fire for thinking that the game had 20 players so has a motivation (both as scum and town, though) to lie and say that it was hyperbole.
I do not have a reason to lie. I would not have come under fire for saying it was because MindGamer was called manipulative, so there isn't a great motivation to make up another reason.
Also for personal reasons since I know I'm telling the truth and I do not know if SV is.

[Iecerint]

I didn't say that the two actions are equally scummy. I said that they were scummy for the same reason. If I thought the actions were equally scummy, it would not be enough to supercede my Joh vote.

I agree that it is relatively likely that your circumstance was not a lie.

[Plum]

Regarding "TWENTY" versus 12, I don't suppose any of you have heard of hyperbole? No? Hadn't thought so.

@Plum: I am very careful with my vote. I don't believe that it should be thrown around willy-nilly; when I have a serious place to place it, you will see it.

You basically accused GiD of outright lying. If that's not enough for a vote . . . yar. Even if it's not traditional for you, what's the harm in voting your top suspect now? Who is your top suspect? Could you make it clearer and clarify this when it changes, if you're really not into voting? And, yeah, not quite buying your hyperbole explanation there either.

Iec - The second question does look a bit ugh, so I guess I see your point there; I still don't see the first question as suspicious; my first reaction to it was that he was trying to see if there was anything useful about GiD/SD which prompted the vote change, not try to see whether your change made you scummy. Is there something else I'm missing here?

[Iecerint]

I agree with you -- I think his post would normally have been fine -- but you're maybe forgetting that I didn't have my role PM at that time. So the question of whether the change "made me scummy" was not a meaningful question to ask.

Unless he either had acute. selective amnesia or was arguing that I was trying to buddy with Jack early on "just in case," something was up. The only reason this isn't a doubleplus huge deal (i.e. that SV maybe beats it) is that it would appear to be a significant miscalculation on his part. It's not as if I wouldn't notice. But poor scum play does not town play make.

I agree with Plum about SV's voting style. I think players should always try to have votes down to help town do rereads late game.

[Mindgamer]

Busy week. I apologize for my lack of participation.

@ Shadow Dancer
Why did you choose to roll a dice?

[...]

@ Jack
Dice rolling is completely useless? Do you not think that the decision to use a dice is in itself something from which we can substract information? I think scum is much more likely to use a dice than town.

What is more suspect in rolling a dice than doing some stupid reasoning like "vote greenindirt for having for his dirty nick" (or something like that). Very little information, most likely none, can be derived from it, anyways.

A scum will never be 100% random voting, since he has to choose between voting for a townie and voting for a scum. A dice roll ensures that the vote is 100% random, which makes it the perfect RVS strategy for scum.

And... to be honest I'm too tired to continue. I'll make my post tomorrow morning. But after a skimread I have to say that I find it strange how two people have a townread on me after a grand total of two miniposts.

[Iecerint]

MOAR SHADOW DANCERS AND JOHO PLZ. (Other people are allowed, too.)

I am very disappointed that no one is fascinated by my chat with Jackie. I will try to be more entertaining next time.

/drunkpost

[VasudeVa]

Yes, interestingly. He called you and greenindirt as town vs town after your argument, "mostly from gut". Vas, what was the part that wasn't from gut?

Mostly gut. I don't feel like they are scum yet. The part that wasn't from gut is that they are too comfortable with arguing aggressively against each other. I think that scum tend to be defensive in early arguments such as that. But that's just a small part of the equation. This read is 80% gut, 20% that.

I can see Vas as scumpartner with SD. His vote after I prodded him is odd, being willing to call so many people townie is odd, and his last post is wishy washy.

D1, I tend to play as the impartial observer. Primarily because I usually have no idea who to suspect, and my early game is baad, terribad. I tend point out arguments and take sides when it is convincing enough.

On another note:
SV is being too careless about the game to seem scum. Might be a bored townie. Scum usually have their thoughts in order because they aren't supposed to be doing any scum hunting but to mislead any attempt to scumhunt.

Be reading the metas now.

[Flava Flave]

Vote Mindgamer

Every random vote needs a reason, no matter how silly it may be. What is your reason?

Your reaction to being called a manipulative SOB. It feels off as it is that you call out buddying, but then the "haha" to indicate a joke triggers my vote.

You do something similar in this post too:

Not this game I'm afraid. I'm town aligned.

Stress that you are town and then the smiley. I just don't like it. Feels like trying to fit in. That's, ya know, the scum's job.

Votes on Shattered are as bad as votes on Shadow. Plum did both. Hmm.

[greenindirt]

SV is being too careless about the game to seem scum. Might be a bored townie. Scum usually have their thoughts in order because they aren't supposed to be doing any scum hunting but to mislead any attempt to scumhunt.

I would very much disagree that someone who is playing poorly is more likely to be town.

Votes on Shattered are as bad as votes on Shadow. Plum did both. Hmm.

Why are votes for SV and SD bad? What do you think about SV and SD?

[Flava Flave]

Why are votes for SV and SD bad? What do you think about SV and SD?

Very weak reasoning. And convenient timing for Plum, who Shattered was just going after.

I don't see anything scummy on either Shattered or Shadow's part so far.

Actually,

Unvote, Vote Plum, FoS Mind

[Johoohno]

On the language issue:

I disagree with Iecerint (here), however, I prefer hearing Shadow Dancer come back and defend himself. Nevertheless, this entire debacle has shown some interesting things. I’m curious why Jack keeps his vote on Shadow when he at the same time is attacking Iecerint in post 79.

@ Jack:

Is Shadow Dancer your top scum candidate right now?

@ Iecerint:

In my post 65 the last two lines weren’t in reference to you. And the reason I thought you meant Vas is due to his sig, where he states English isn’t his first language. And your last comment on SD in post 67 is unintelligible to me. And a note just to make it crystal clear: I loathe the idea of people playing without knowing their role, it may be used to seem town when they in fact aren’t. When you then, the way I see it, start following someone around you try to create yet another safety measure should you be scum (and then possibly dragging someone down with you). As you must have noted, I’m not voting you, since all those things were done before you got your role. But I still dislike that play style and it has made me more suspicious of you, waiting to see if it is play style only or might be role too.

On the topic of TWENTY:

I seriously don’t see the big fuss about SV saying twenty instead of twelve players. However, it seems as if he’s got previous experience playing with Plum, making him believe her to be scum in this one.

A Plum game link here would fit nicely

, either by Plum or Shattered Viewpoint.

@ Vas:

You really have to stop stepping in and defending other player’s action (like in post 118 where you defend Shattered Viewpoint), it is better if they defend themselves first and afterwards you can step in and agree or disagree. Also, I’m far more interested in who you think is scum (and why, of course) than town.

@ Mod:

Please prod Bio Hazard!

[Johoohno]

Addendum: on the issue of people playing without their role knowledge: It is against the game playing not knowing your win conditions. Most games, including this one, has a rule that you should play to win. How can you do that if you don't know your win condition?

[Mindgamer]

What's the case on Shadow Dancer (page 3)? I don't see it.
Greenindirt's 68 is weird seeing as he doesn't say what he likes about the Shadow Dancer wagon and adds his vote 'for pressure'. When you say your vote is just for pressure, it is useless obviously.

Iecerint
He voted because you specifically told him to make a non-diceroll vote. If you want to damn him for lack of creativity, fine, but it's irresponsible of you to ask him to non-diceroll vote and then whine about his choice. Dumb, not scummy.

Of course not. The whole point of a non-diceroll vote is that we can say something about the choice that is made.

------------

Iecerint vs Jack
I have a gut feeling Iecerint is a scum in this discussion. Sentences I don't like include 'more discussion won't change anything no matter what' and 'I like distancing on Day 1 as scum'.

Shattered Viewpoint
Out of TWENTY players, you really expect to get away with only giving some info on one and some offhand quasi-analysis on another? Please. I've seen you play. Stop lurking. Now.

I could say the same about you. You've been lurking quite hard yourself and in this post the only thing you do is attacking another lurker. That's hypocritical and hypocricy is a big scumtell.

Also, that '20 players' statement really looks like a mess up between large and mini games rather than a mistake. I don't like how you defend your mistake instead of admitting it.

VasudeVa
On another note:
SV is being too careless about the game to seem scum. Might be a bored townie. Scum usually have their thoughts in order because they aren't supposed to be doing any scum hunting but to mislead any attempt to scumhunt.

Being careless may not be indicative of being scum, but it certainly is anti-town. I wouldn't defend Shattered Viewpoint based on this.

Flava Flave
Feels like trying to fit in. That's, ya know, the scum's job.

I fail to see how posting ':P' and 'haha' make me fit in the town. Elaborate on this please.

----------

Btw, I have very little faith in meta. I would especially not trust on games that people give as examples of their 'alignments meta' because that is just what a scum wants you to think.

Time to get real with my vote. At this moment I think Shattered Viewpoint is the scummiest for reasons I gave earlier.

Unvote. Vote: Shattered Viewpoint