Mini 944- Town Suav├® - TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANK!!!!! (over)

[DTMaster]

ITT people need to learn to read in context. Ken is specific about 2 scummies, and he joined in January. Newb-tell overflows in this game hence my question.

@Ken

Can anyone help me fully understand the possibilites of this type of game? Any number of mafia less than half the population? What type of town role possibilites are there? And what type of mafia roles are there?

This is a closed setup so there are lots of roles. As a good rule of thumb, there are 3 scum and 9 townies generally. Town and Scum can have power roles beyond the Doctor/Cop/Roleblocker setup you are used to. Those are the common roles but from experience you might have a :

Town Roleblocker, or a Mafia Doctor. You should

@Muzz
Early game gambit makes this unlikely, however you have very good points about verifying Nik's claim and the closed setup.

@Duck
a. Quick question: 4 pages in:

What is there to analyze outside of the Duck/Anon case and the Ken case ?

It's a bit of a stretch to call out your meta argument when we are at the early stages of this game.

b. Pana's questioning is legitimate. Take it into context. Pana was the first to address the Ken issue. I followed up with my newb question, and you guys did your votes. Um

I'm sorry but you obviously found this line of question valid and you are taking it back?

.

c.

Because, while I had rescinded my vote because of lessened suspicion and the danger of a quick-growing bandwagon, he is still the most suspicious in my eyes.

Oi. If you think Ken is the scummiest at the moment, why are you caring about the speed of the wagon? Also, you would need 7 votes on a wagon to force a speed lynch. You'd need to have at least 4 townies to force a speed lynch. If this goes to a mislynch, then you've pretty much outed most of the scum because town will not drive speed lynches, scum will.

Speed lynches = tonnes of good info. 3 votes = danger of speed lynch? Very weak.

d. What are you looking for in Ken's response? Usually if you want a response you question him, you don't wait around for him to post.

@Muzz

Whoa. Whoa. Scumdar alert:

As further evidence of Duck's scumminess, I'd like to present meta from DuckTown in Mafia 94:

Vote Spolium

Bandwagon FTW!

^^ The above has no reliance to this game. This above quote has no alignment attributed to duck based on his vote/wagon. This looks like blatant smearing. Epically scummy here. Game link, alignment information, etc.

Context is everything, and you sir did not provide any.

@Ken

I am not too sure how whether or not I was excited about the hider role makes me appear mafia or not.

This being my first game with this role, I would have brought it up regardless if I was town or mafia. But at least you are providing support and evidence for your claim.

I'm reading this but the bolded just reads all kinds of wrong. Are you trying to say that: you were excited because the Hider can investigate?

Unvote

Vote: Muzz

Duck is all sorts of scummy, but Muzz's quote is even more scummier and makes him look like he's aggravating the Duck wagon. I agree with Pam here.

[MrSuave]

Vote Count 2:

Nikanor
McZombie
Nobody Special
Nachomamma8
DTMaster
Locke Lamora
Parama
duckduck96 (5) CoheedCambria09, Nachomamma8, muzzz, ConfidAnon, Nikanor
CoheedCambria09
muzzz (2) DTMaster, Parama
ConfidAnon
Kenman

Not Voting:

McZombie, Locke Lamora, Kenman, duckduck96, Nobody Special

With 12 Alive It Takes

7

to lynch.

[Nikanor]

Large bandwagon is large.

Nobody put duckduck at L-1, please.

I like him at L-2, so I'm not going to unvote, but I don't want him to be hammered by some scumbag (or himself) pre-maturely.

[ConfidAnon]

I am not too sure how whether or not I was excited about the hider role makes me appear mafia or not. This being my first game with this role, I would have brought it up regardless if I was town or mafia. But at least you are providing support and evidence for your claim.

I believe duckduck is implying that if you are scum, then Nikanor looks suspicious to. He believes that your excitement sounds fake, as if Nikanor were faking a role as mafia and you (being his scumpartner in this scenario) are acting like you believe it.

I'm inclined to believe his claim

[/url][/area]

Yea, then I don't get it.

^^ The above has no reliance to this game. This above quote has no alignment attributed to duck based on his vote/wagon. This looks like blatant smearing. Epically scummy here. Game link, alignment information, etc.

Context is everything, and you sir did not provide any.

This is a good point. Doesn't make me want to move my vote off of duck right now, but muzzz should answer about this.

[muzzz]

@Nik: when I voted confid I figured that either both of them were scum, or my argument was flawed.

@Par: I'm voting Duck because he's, uncharacteristically, not voting. I think that not voting is

always

a problem. There's only one thing that townies absolutely

have

to do in a game of mafia, and that's vote.

@DTM: I gave you the name of the game (Mafia 94) and Duck's alignment there (town). I assumed that would be enough information for people to find the thread. But if not, you can find a linky to that game by clicking the "wiki" button beneath my posts.

While I understand if people who weren't there are unwilling to take my word for it, I stand by my meta argument. Duck seems significantly more careful with his vote than when I last saw him as town. And I intend to figure out why.

@Suave: Par's voting me, not Ken

[MrSuave]

My bad, it's all fixed now.

[Nachomamma8]

SuaveMod, prod McZombie XLOP

Umm... I don't really agree with the forming muzzz wagon; that quote wasn't all that scummy. In the game muzzz referred to, duck didn't hesitate in putting someone within scum quicklynching range for the sake of bandwagoning, while now, he's hesitating to put a first or a second vote on the wagon.

[ConfidAnon]

@Nik: when I voted confid I figured that either both of them were scum, or my argument was flawed

So do you now not believe both of us are scum?

[muzzz]

I'm still considering the possibility. The difference now is that I'm also considering the possibility that either of you could be scum on your own.

[CoheedCambria09]

Hey sorry for being absent i was away on a trip and though i would have been able to get to a computer more often.

Right now im happy with where my random (not anymore) vote went. Duck has become the most suspicious is my eyes. This is mainly for his indecision about his vote, yet he still continued to press a case. This does not makes sense to me at all, and comes off as scummy. Being the first, second and even third vote as this point is not dangerous.

A few of Kens actions have stood out to me as well. An apparent role fishing happened when he asked what roles/how many scum/town etc. It may just be a noob mistake, but only time will tell, and it stands out to me.

[Nikanor]

A few of Kens actions have stood out to me as well. An apparent role fishing happened when he asked what roles/how many scum/town etc. It may just be a noob mistake, but only time will tell, and it stands out to me.

tl;dr: I have no opinion on Ken.

Right now im happy with where my random (not anymore) vote went. Duck has become the most suspicious is my eyes. This is mainly for his indecision about his vote, yet he still continued to press a case. This does not makes sense to me at all, and comes off as scummy. Being the first, second and even third vote as this point is not dangerous.

tl;dr: I have nothing new to say.

I guess I wouldn't mind a duckduck lynch right now. Who wants to hammer?

[Nachomamma8]

I would, but I'm already voting him...

[DTMaster]

@Muzz
I disliked how you didn't provide the reasoning until

after this was called on

. The way you handled the argument = very bad. How? You provided a quote from outside a game saying:

Duck = bandwagoner in a game where he flipped town.

Then you spend every frequent point afterward elaborating how this is relevant. This isn't a pro-town way of handling the Duck case. This reads as someone taking the back seat.

If you read the argument in Iso it goes:

1. Duck is scummy, proof from other game!
2. Duck should be voting
3.

THEN WE GET THE REASONS

: Duck is scummy because he is careful with his vote, unlike the other game. Duck shows that he was reckless as town with his vote in Mafia 94, but this isn't reflected here.

Again: Why did it take for you to explain this meta call? It reads as if you were beating around the bush with this argument. Assuming that people will come to the same conclusions as you reads as lazy. This type of laziness = scummy.

I gave you the name of the game (Mafia 94) and Duck's alignment there (town). I assumed that would be enough information for people to find the thread. But if not, you can find a linky to that game by clicking the "wiki" button beneath my posts.

While I understand if people who weren't there are unwilling to take my word for it, I stand by my meta argument. Duck seems significantly more careful with his vote than when I last saw him as town. And I intend to figure out why.

^^This oozes with bad vibes here.

@Nacho

Why are you calling L-4 in mafia 94 quicklynchable? That means you accuse Duck for helping put Ken in L-4, which reads as the same in the wagon on Ken.

This argument reads as a lose-lose situation:
a. You can accuse Duck to be attempting to quick lynch -> scummy
b. In an unvote on someone who reads as a town, you are using: OMG YOU DIDN'T WAGON argument + meta -> scummy

In mafia 94:

We had 20 players and 6 people on said wagon

Vote Count as of Post 49
(6) Spolium (Cephrir, Spolium, Adel, populartajo, Simenon, inHimshallibe)
(2) Stef (elvis_knits, ekiM)
(1) Adel (muzzz)
(1) ekiM (duckduck96)
(1) dingoatemybaby (roflcopter)
(1) roflcopter (Darkstrike_11)

(8) Not Voting (Achilles, dingoatemybaby, Empking's Alt, Infection, Kison, Pyromaniac, Stef, The Red Severum)

With 20 players alive, it takes 11 votes to lynch!

Vote Spolium

Bandwagon FTW!

This makes it into a 7 vote in an 11 to lynch game right off the gate. This is

L-4

The latter of the argument is stronger, but I don't think you are correct in your statement of Duck. It looks like you are making the read on Duck more dramatic then it sounds.

@Nikanor
Um, We have big gaping holes in players and posts (aka Zombie, LL, etc). I'd be semi-annoyed if we went into N1 already when we don't have many good reads on said people.

[muzzz]

I did explain my Duck vote, immediately after making it. Post #8 in my ISO. Everybody but you and Par seems to have understood me just fine. If you want to excuse me of being unclear, fine, but saying I didn't explain until later is just not true.

^^This oozes with bad vibes here.

This isn't much of an explanation, either, BTW.

And yes, I do tend to be concise in my explanations. I always do that, regardless of my alignment. You might have noticed that Simenon made a similar accusation in Mafia 94. If you want some more details about why I play the way I do you can find them there.

---

I won't support a hammer until we've at least heard from McZombie.

[muzzz]

EBWOP:

If you want to

accuse

me of being unclear, ...

[Locke Lamora]

muzzz: context is everything. I've read the start of Mafia 94 and in the first three days of the game there's no discernable difference in Duck's eagerness to vote. You also knew the context of that vote you quoted (early game wagon on a self-voter, much like this early game wagon on someone with a potential scumslip) and you made no reference to that or your meta argument from the rest of the game. It looks to me exactly like an attempt to kick an easy target while he's down.

Unvote; Vote: muzz

[muzzz]

Sarcasm: yes, you're right. I forgot to mention that the wagon in 94 was much like this wagon. My bad. I totally should have announced that I'd be going against all tradition by bringing up meta from a situation that's, *gasp*, actually similar...

And if the difference between "bandwagon ftw" and "I don't really feel like voting for him again until we've heard more from him" is not discernable in your opinion, what is?

Just to be clear, that question isn't rhetorical.

[Kenman]

ITT people need to learn to read in context. Ken is specific about 2 scummies, and he joined in January. Newb-tell overflows in this game hence my question.

@Ken

Ken wrote:
Can anyone help me fully understand the possibilites of this type of game? Any number of mafia less than half the population? What type of town role possibilites are there? And what type of mafia roles are there?


This is a closed setup so there are lots of roles. As a good rule of thumb, there are 3 scum and 9 townies generally. Town and Scum can have power roles beyond the Doctor/Cop/Roleblocker setup you are used to. Those are the common roles but from experience you might have a :

Town Roleblocker, or a Mafia Doctor. You should

Thanks for the help, im glad you understand kinda where Im coming from. I think Im getting a general understanding of the game now. So you guys shouldn't expect anymore newb problems from my end(I hope).

@Ken
Ken wrote:

I am not too sure how whether or not I was excited about the hider role makes me appear mafia or not. This being my first game with this role, I would have brought it up regardless if I was town or mafia. But at least you are providing support and evidence for your claim.


I'm reading this but the bolded just reads all kinds of wrong. Are you trying to say that: you were excited because the Hider can investigate?

Basically, what I was saying was that I stated that it is really interesting that Nik had revealed a new role I have never seen before. Duckduck said that I was being "fake excited" about how he revealed his role. Which in turn could mean we could be both scum partners and I am trying to play along with his game. Far stretch if you ask me. I responded saying that, my previous post was not a scumtell because if I was excited about Niks role or pretending to be excited, I would have posted that either way.

[CoheedCambria09]

[quote="Nikanor"]
tl;dr: I have no opinion on Ken.
tl;dr: I have nothing new to say. [/quot

Just a question, what does tl;dr mean. i have not seen that term before

[Nobody Special]

tl;dr = Too Long; Didn't Read -- it's used as a summary tag. (See also teal deer.)

[ConfidAnon]

Thanks for the help, im glad you understand kinda where Im coming from. I think Im getting a general understanding of the game now. So you guys shouldn't expect anymore newb problems from my end(I hope).

So, is there anyone who really strikes you as scummy? (Same goes for all who haven't posted as much. I know it's early, but doesn't hurt to get opinions out in the open.)

[Parama]

SuaveMod, prod McZombie XLOP

Umm... I don't really agree with the forming muzzz wagon; that quote wasn't all that scummy. In the game muzzz referred to, duck didn't hesitate in putting someone within scum quicklynching range for the sake of bandwagoning, while now, he's hesitating to put a first or a second vote on the wagon.

Meta arguments are always terrible.
Muzzz posted the quote out of context as well, which only makes it look worse than it actually is.
Oddly enough, Mafia 94 was the first game I read when I was new to the site, and I don't remember duckduck being in that game at all. Odd.
Considering that the game is rather old now, muzzz - do you realize people change their metas? Players don't play exactly the same way a year ago as they do now. This is why context is important and why your reasoning to push the duckduck wagon is terrible.

Coheed appears to be active-lurking.
McZombie has already flaked. Not surprising. I'd already be searching for a replacement if I was the mod.

[Locke Lamora]

Sarcasm: yes, you're right. I forgot to mention that the wagon in 94 was much like this wagon. My bad. I totally should have announced that I'd be going against all tradition by bringing up meta from a situation that's, *gasp*, actually similar...

And if the difference between "bandwagon ftw" and "I don't really feel like voting for him again until we've heard more from him" is not discernable in your opinion, what is?

Just to be clear, that question isn't rhetorical.

As far as I can see, Duck jumped on a bandwagon in that game and unvoted in his next post after dingo challenged him about it. Sound familiar? You've actually pulled a quote which comes from a series of events that's very similar to this game, based on a game in which Duck was town. You basically grabbed a bandwagon vote you knew would look terrible and posted it here with no consideration of the wider context or properly assessing the two situations in comparison.

[muzzz]

@Par: if Duck wants to explain why he's a different player now, I'll listen. But until he does that I'm assuming my meta is still valid. And for the record, I'd be voting Duck even if I didn't have that meta.

---

Unvote

Seriously, Dingo. In the early stages of the game, I feel that a decent bandwagon can pressure someone into letting a tell slip. If I were to do this, say, on page 10, I would understand your concern. But this early? Please. Think of what could be learned from this in late-game analysis.

Adel, what is up with this alt thing? Bantering back and forth about that doesn't help at all. It seems like a scum tactic to distract us.

Vote: Adel

@Locke: this doesn't sound like Duck bending under Dingo's pressure. This sounds like Duck telling Dingo to stop whining. As for context, you conveniently forgot to mention that the Spolium wagon had completely broken down by the time Duck decided to unvote.

Also, you appear to have missed this:

And if the difference between "bandwagon ftw" and "I don't really feel like voting for him again until we've heard more from him" is not discernable in your opinion, what is?

[Nachomamma8]

Why are you calling L-4 in mafia 94 quicklynchable? That means you accuse Duck for helping put Ken in L-4, which reads as the same in the wagon on Ken.

It's quicklynchable because there were 4 scum in that game. Practical? No. Quicklynchable? Yes.

And, no. I wasn't accusing Duck of that... what?

In an unvote on someone who reads as a town, you are using: OMG YOU DIDN'T WAGON argument + meta -> scummy

I'd call of it more of a OMG YOU WERE AFRAID TO PUT A SECOND VOTE ON HIM --> scummy, wouldn't you? Note, I'm not using muzzz's argument myself. I'm just pointing out that I see it could be valid, thus why I'm not voting him.

I don't think you are correct in your statement of Duck.

Why not?