Pick Your Power II - Looks like the wine is gone (SCUM WIN)

[dramonic]

;_;

First to die by mafia... yeaz...

[Jack]

Reading your quicktopic you guys even talked about who you should kill to leave groups alone to be good targets for number lynching. I can't see how you can have participated in that quicktopic and think it's a good idea for town to make heavy use of number analysis.

I didn't think the number analysis was very valuable. Especially since scum are going to work around it.

)

Needless to say PLEASE LOOK HERE BEFORE YOU POST.

I screwed it up and RC not SC got killed.

"Oh"

I just read this. I mean, obviously my first reaction is anger. Then I feel as if, 'well people are human.'

Then I just feel sad. Like we lost the game on a fluke

We thought it was going to suck, but it turned out well for us.

RC would probably not have been scummy enough to lynch. But we would have done the same thing the last day, except we probably would have gone for a fifi lynch, or devotress.

It was fortunate that SC turned out so scummy, but I don't think the mixup had a huge effect on the game.

[bouncy.bouncy]

Bouncy: A role investigation on Jack would've ended it, on Socrates it would have let us know for sure he wasn't the vig, etc. Please, please don't do random.org next time.

You still want to argue this?

First, you don't know that scum would've had the same claims if I hadn't claimed.

Second,
An investigation on YOU would've confirmed Socrates as scum after he claimed bomb.
An investigation on FARADAY would've outed him.
An investigation on FIFI would've outed her and Jack.
An investigation on STRANGER would've eliminated him from vig.

I've already admitted that I was wrong about not investigating the top picks, but I had no other reason on D1/N1 to investigate any of the 6 people on our combined list above.

[The1fifi]

Awesome game! Good game Fate, you rock. And elli was funnie like hell.


Hoopla is just genious =)

Thanks for modding Spyrex, i loved this game.

[Ellibereth]

I fucked up really bad.
I'll explain what happened with the Socrates "confirmed town" thing after an ongoing game is over...

[StrangerCoug]

Yeah. Fate summed it up, basically. He himself admits to stuff that cost us. But Fate, I'm not claiming I didn't know what I did (that'd be a lie), but I feel that more helpful advice to give me post-game would be to be more careful what I'm doing. I generally play as I go and generally go back only when I feel it necessary.

[farside22]

I think allowing the scum to talk about roles and numbers pregame hurt the town a lot. There has to be a middle ground on this issue.
I really liked the idea of trying to figure out which scum may have picked number wise but the scum got the best roles do to communication.

[Hoopla]

I think allowing the scum to talk about roles and numbers pregame hurt the town a lot. There has to be a middle ground on this issue.
I really liked the idea of trying to figure out which scum may have picked number wise but the scum got the best roles do to communication.

Do you think if it were run again, the town would be able to expect or predict what the scum were doing a bit better? I don't think pre-draft scum-talk would be a problem if the role list was altered a little bit to add some stronger potential town powers and take away a few good scum roles. Because things like cop, watcher, tracker, doctor, weak doctor etc. are all mostly useless for scum. Then watering down the vig to X-shot or removing things like governor/vengeful. Would that justify keeping the pre-draft planning? Because I think that is one of the best parts of the game.

[Jack]

I was going to pick (15,1) before we talked about it (would have been third overall). We got the best roles largely due to chance. If socrates had been one spot lower, we probably wouldn't have gotten vig.

[Faraday]

I still feel the set-up was pretty balanced. Town happened to pick badly in terms of numbers. No one took empowerer, no doc or rb'er either and we killed off their power roles early. Watcher/Tracker are a big worry for the scum. And then during the day game town played fairly poorly too.

Pre-draft planning is a great idea imo, and if you run another game the strategies would be interesting to see. You might get scum doubling up, or something like that.

[Pomegranate]

Hi guys. GG scum. Maybe more comments later.

Pom

[Pomegranate]

Also, I think the fact that scum had a chance to coordinate like that gave them a real advantage that IMO hindered the town enough that I don't see it as balanced.

[RedCoyote]

Like Fate said, give the scum credit. I would've never fingered a Hoopla/Socrates scumteam I don't think. I would've liked to had stuck around, because I think I was just getting into my stride at the end of Day 2.

Thanks to our Mod. I like the concept of the game. It's a simple premise, yet it goes a long way in changing up the way the game is played.

[Fate]

Because things like cop, watcher, tracker, doctor, weak doctor etc. are all mostly useless for scum. Then watering down the vig to X-shot or removing things like governor/vengeful. Would that justify keeping the pre-draft planning? Because I think that is one of the best parts of the game.

Definitely. The problem was, as I said earlier, this game was basically "let scum choose their PR while town gets a random assortment" If Ellie hadn't picked up Governor there would've been literally nothing town could have done except lynch scum correctly each day they could.

If the roles available offer less "combo" potential for scum, and the "random PRs" the town receives are stronger, then it would equal out.

[SpyreX]

I probably, after seeing how this went, will limit the discussion beforehand.

However, 17-5 means if the vig isn't scum there is a lot of room for a scripted plan to implode - that was the key swing.

I don't think the town played badly but I do think the scum played well on top of having an arsenal.

[SpyreX]

"Oh"

I just read this. I mean, obviously my first reaction is anger. Then I feel as if, 'well people are human.'

Then I just feel sad. Like we lost the game on a fluke

Mistakes do happen and that is definitely the biggest I've made modding. That said - the net result was the town coming out fast and hard on Soc which was good. But, then you got caught up in the cop scenario which (especially in this setup) really shouldn't have taken as much weight as it did.

It's a bit of a stretch to say the game was lost on a fluke - the biggest threat would have been them nailing the bomb with the vig but they had you pretty solidly pegged early.

[SpyreX]

Note: I do need to find the right balance to limit because watching the scum strategize pre-game was one of the better parts in my opinion.

I'm just not sure what the right balance is - part of it still that gets me is vig slipping that low; I consider that a first tier ability that should have been double-picked (like cop in a setup with no counters) before 7. Definitely over role cop and probably over tracker as well.

[Hoopla]

Note: I do need to find the right balance to limit because watching the scum strategize pre-game was one of the better parts in my opinion.

I'm just not sure what the right balance is - part of it still that gets me is vig slipping that low; I consider that a first tier ability that should have been double-picked (like cop in a setup with no counters) before 7. Definitely over role cop and probably over tracker as well.

It's hard to imagine scum going this well next time if A) you change the amount of beneficial scum roles to beneficial town roles, and B) town having a better handle on number analysis and knowing what the scum optimum strategy is. I seriously think knowledge of how scum played this game would influence the scum next game, and may even pressure scum into doubling up on an X number - and if that is the case it's already a benefit for town.

I think the town played well overall, but failed to recognise important patterns, what the best scum strategy was, and how to break it. We all know the town were hampered by scum getting good scum roles, but some of this could have been prevented by intelligent town play. For example,

nobody

went for vig or cop which I found amazing - I daresay cop/vig vanillas in this set-up would have been quite handy for town to have. I think if I was town next game and drew 4th/5th pick, I'd go for the most powerful role if only as insurance to the town so they know where it is if it's in scum hands.

Another example is mid-table townies not trying to block good scum roles like vengeful/governor/empowerer which is just as important as getting town information. This is also the reason why we used our first pick to take cop - even though it gave us nothing as scum, it can do more potential damage to us, than we can do damage with a scum motivated role.

I also think a chain is as strong as it's weakest link, and successful towns won't win often when they have a large chunk of players underperforming. I think TM/CKD/Pom/wolf/FeFiFoFum/Porkens were all easy lynch choices for scum to take because they were lurking and not really reading. Maybe I'm being too critical, but I wouldn't expect to win as town if ~1/3 of your fellow townies are asleep.

I might be biased, but I really don't think this set-up is unbalanced if you include the right role combinations. There's no point having the draft if you're going to make it entirely random and not know alignments beforehand. You might as well just do it all yourself and give out roles that way. Scum are the informed minority and work together for everything in the game - this shouldn't be different at all. One of the most enterprising features of this set-up is guessing what scum chose and whether they're high/low in the draft. It gives the game an amazing start, with actual information on D1 to use which is so rare in other games.

I'd prefer adding an extra townie or two to keep the scum-talk draft if people

really

think it was unbalanced. But seriously, it can be fixed with a bit more care towards what roles are allowed in the game. When is the next one SpyreX? Are you doing one for the 08 scummers?

[Faraday]

Also, I think the fact that scum had a chance to coordinate like that gave them a real advantage that IMO hindered the town enough that I don't see it as balanced.

Eh, I think the scum pretty much outplayed the town too during the game. The pre-game discussion was a factor, but without it scum are as lost as town, and well they're supposed to be an informed minority.

[SpyreX]

I'd prefer adding an extra townie or two to keep the scum-talk draft if people really think it was unbalanced. But seriously, it can be fixed with a bit more care towards what roles are allowed in the game. When is the next one SpyreX? Are you doing one for the 08 scummers?

MORE townies? 17-5 I thought was scary enough. I'd need more input.

I could totally do one late march (I'm on vacation 13-21st) for the 08'ers if thats what we've decided on.

I love input on what roles work and dont.

I'd love to find a good way to keep the pre-chat. Maybe give the town a pair of masons?

[farside22]

Note: I do need to find the right balance to limit because watching the scum strategize pre-game was one of the better parts in my opinion.

I'm just not sure what the right balance is - part of it still that gets me is vig slipping that low; I consider that a first tier ability that should have been double-picked (like cop in a setup with no counters) before 7. Definitely over role cop and probably over tracker as well.

I think a SK would have been nice to have in this game given that the scum had not only their own kill but the vig kill.

[Fate]

Giving the town a few masons is pretty powerful. They could come up with all sorts of gambits (if I had been neighbor'd with someone else I was considering telling them to claim bomb in order for me to draw the NK), etc.

I think just toning down the synergy of the scum roles would make it less swingy. Though having masons would be a lot funner, admittedly, for town gambit strategies.

Roles that need to go:
Vengeful, Governor.

Both of these are difficult to work around. Scum can swap roles around (like with Jack claiming vengeful when fifi was the one), and the only reason they couldn't swap it further was because DocPotter had gone for it above him. Both these roles allow situations in which scum can claim scum, and still win, because there is nothing town can do. Defeats the spirit of mafia, imo.

[Hoopla]

To be honest, adding more townies or even masons to the set-up feels like an ineloquent solution. I genuinely believe balance issues could be fixed by smart role selections. 17:5 is a fair ratio when scum don't have vig/governor or vig/empowerer combos. There needs to be role combinations available to encourage creative scum play, but nothing that can break the game.

There are some roles in this set-up which drastically favour scum - there are a few that favour town, however they were eliminated quite early in this game which made a large difference in the end. I've gone to the effort of reviewing each role used in the game, using a scoring system (0 through to 5) to rank how powerful each role is to each alignment. There are a lot of factors involved, most notably how to score roles that go well in combinations and roles that are good for lone use. Here are my scores (ranked by value to the town);

(

5

) (

0

)

Cop

(

4

) (

1

)

Bomb

(

4

) (

1

)

Watcher

(

4

) (

2

)

Bulletproof

(

3

) (

1

)

Tracker

(

3

) (

2

)

Universal Backup

(

3

) (

3

)

Role Cop

(

3

) (

5

)

Vig

(

2

) (

1

)

Doc

(

2

) (

4

)

Vengeful

(

1

) (

0

)

Bodyguard

(

1

) (

0

)

Neighborizer

(

1

) (

3

)

Roleblocker

(

0

) (

4

)

Empowerer

(

0

) (

5

)

Governor

In my opinion, there was too much firepower to choose from for scum to sculpt a formidable team. Governor, Empowerer, Roleblocker, Vengeful, Rolecop, Vig all favour the scumteam more than town - and town can't be expected to cut all of these roles off. There still needs to pro-scum roles for them to consider in the draft, but some of these were too potent, especially if drafted in combination with each other.

Here are some roles I've considered for the set-up that I have also scored for you;

(

4

) (

0

)

Weak Doctor (Protects player if they are town, dies if protects scum - great town confirmer)

(

2

) (

3

)

1-shot vig

(

3

) (

4

)

2-shot vig

(

4

) (

3

)

JOAT (1 cop, 1 vig, 1 RB, 1 doc)

(

2

) (

1

)

Nurse (Becomes a standard doctor in the event ANY doctor dies - could be a worthwhile role with a Doc/Weak Doc in the set-up)

(

3

) (

3

)

Jailkeeper

(

2

) (

2

)

2-shot redirector (A one-way busdriver I believe - choose a player and if they have an action, you direct it to someone else of your choice)

(

4

) (

2

)

Gunsmith (Finds mafia/cop/vig/role cop - very handy role for town, and even for mafia)

~~

And finally, from this list, here is the set-up I would propose for the next game;

(

5

) (

0

)

Cop

(

4

) (

0

)

Weak Doctor (Protects player if they are town, dies if protects scum - great town confirmer)

(

4

) (

1

)

Bomb

(

4

) (

1

)

Watcher

(

4

) (

2

)

Bulletproof

(

4

) (

2

)

Gunsmith (Finds mafia/cop/vig/role cop - very handy role for town, and even for mafia)

(

4

) (

3

)

JOAT (1 cop, 1 vig, 1 RB, 1 doc)

(

3

) (

1

)

Tracker

(

3

) (

2

)

Universal Backup

(

3

) (

3

)

Role Cop

(

3

) (

4

)

2-shot vig

(

2

) (

1

)

Doc

(

1

) (

0

)

Neighborizer

(

1

) (

3

)

Roleblocker

(

0

) (

4

)

Empowerer

The mafia's combo potential has been minimised, with the vig being watered down to a 2-shot vig. This removes some of the swing in the game - a large part of why scum won this game, was the continuous double kills. Capping this role is a good insurance clause in case scum get it again. Are the big inclusions of some of these investigation and confirming roles too much, and now too town favoured? It's possible, as scum don't have as much strike power to counter a town that lucks out and gets a lot of good roles.

If anyone else wants to offer their opinions on the roles, feel free to chime in!

[Fate]

Bodyguard is a bit underrated, imo. If I had chosen that, and guarded RayFrost after he was outed, it would have been the equivalent of me "forcing" my bomb on scum.

Unless I'm mistaken and empowerer goes through a bodyguard.

Other than that it looks like you put a lot of time into this list. Maybe you should co-mod with Spyrex! (Just so I don't have to go up against your fearsome tactics again >_>)

[Hoopla]

Bodyguard is a bit underrated, imo. If I had chosen that, and guarded RayFrost after he was outed, it would have been the equivalent of me "forcing" my bomb on scum.

Yes, perhaps. It scored a bit less because it's a role that is only worth something in specific situations (when you have a confirmed town, or power role alive) - even then it's prone to the empowerer. It also scored a bit lower because I deemed it unlikely players would actually go for this role.

~also i'd want to play too much to consider co-modding.