Mini 918 - A Hot, Steaming Bowl of Mafia - Game Over!

[Shotty to the Body]

And now, let me ask you a question - do you still think, RC is 'either contradicting himself at worst or at the very best back-pedaling hard'?

I find it extremely interesting, you jumped that wagon at first, to now you hopped off it to accuse someone who threw a first vote on it (while accusing me of 'opportunistic jump' on that wagon, which is outright bullshit).

Bonus 'LOL' points for you actually being one of those three people mentioned by Sotty.

Shrug, I liked his responses to the questions he was asked, though I would still like to see him answer Locke's post like you mentioned. I think what he said is being misconstrued. The only thing that keeps me suspicious of him is Moai's defense, but I think that point should start with a Moai lynch.

Why is it interesting? I'll admit I made a mistake, I didn't check who voted when before making the post, but if you want to call me scum for it just do it, don't beat around the bush. Alluding to things being 'interesting' or whatever else just muddles the pond when people are rereading your posts. I'm probably guilty of this as well, but it's a personal goal to cut down on the 'mysterious ways' style of playing.

What's a 'LOL point?'

My take on the RC issue. I think he was saying we shouldn't suspect people based on Sotty's daykill, not that we shouldn't suspect people she mentioned. Was pretty confusing, I had to reread his post like three times to figure it out.

Shotty's vote in 88 is scummy as hell. He votes Cathart claiming Cathart's vote on RC was opportunistic when Cathart voted RC first, and Shotty himself later voted RC. Cathart already covered this. Shotty is 2/2 on terrible votes, which I find to be the threshhold for scum, so I'll be backing this lynch the rest of the day.

And now, let me ask you a question - do you still think, RC is 'either contradicting himself at worst or at the very best back-pedaling hard'?

I find it extremely interesting, you jumped that wagon at first, to now you hopped off it to accuse someone who threw a first vote on it (while accusing me of 'opportunistic jump' on that wagon, which is outright bullshit).

Bonus 'LOL' points for you actually being one of those three people mentioned by Sotty.

Town

charters picked me to tunnel on for this game, yay!

Ignoring Cathart's response to your vote on him is another scumfession from Shotty. Here's the active lurking I'm talking about.

Also his active lurking accusations from before are now tinted with irony.

There's a difference between posting about not having time and posting "lol charter tunnel".

Let's start the gears on a Shotty lynch, folks.

Lol I didn't ignore it, except when I don't have time to make posts I don't 'check in' with a useless post, I'd rather post a quickie with the thought on top in my mind. I actually had a response worked out but my laptop died before I could finish so I had to start from scratch now that I got home from my friends house.

Remember last time you tunneled on me?

Why is my mistake so scummy? In mafia you hunt for the motivation behind the idea, what would I stand to gain by making up something so stupendously easy to check on that Col. would obviously protest if I were seriously trying to lead a mislynch as scum?

My main points were about Col.'s ideas about lynching RC based on Moai's actions which is fallacious in my opinion and is a scum tactic to lead a mislynch and potentially give credence to a partner by associating them with a mislynched townie.

unvote vote Moai

[Nikanor]

I got prodded! I'll catch up tomorrow, I'm too tired to do it tonight.

[Hoopla]

Unvote, vote: Moai Interceptor Cannons

[d3x]

{1.}

d3x, what do you guys think of Shotty?

{2.}

Of a Shotty/MIC scumteam?

1

. Meh. I'd like to see what he was talking about when he mentioned the last time you tunneled him. As of right now I've got him mostly neutral with a bit of a Scum-lean. I'd still very much like to hear back from Kon regarding the 'serious Vote' from page 1.

2

. I don't like putting too much stock in Scum teams this early. We do have one flip, but that came so damn soon that it doesn't really give us much of anything. I like MIC for Scum right now and I want to see him swing.

Extra Credit

. I'm also a bit concerned about Hoopla. There's a lot of Vote hopping and essentially no discussing.

[RedCoyote]

You didn't say 'let's treat everyone equally and ignore the kill', you said 'let's avoid these players so we don't argue about the kill' and then random voted Dry-fit.

Perhaps that's how you interpreted it.

if anything it's WIFOM designed to get us looking more closely at one of those players

What does this say, Locke? It says that the kill may have been just a ploy to get us to blame SttB, charter, or Moai for the Sotty's death. In other words, the kill may have just been a killing of Sotty because she's a good player or because she's the first name you thought of, but

if

it's anything specific to this game, it's trying to throw us into WIFOM about the connections there may or may not be between her and SttB, Moai, and charter. Nowhere in that sentence did I say, "We are avoiding SttB, charter, and Moai", in the sense that they are clear in anyway, as you implied here.

As far as I can see, that's doing the exact opposite of what you state above; you're being more receptive to their supposed involvement by deliberately not voting them.

Then you must think my vote is "locked in" on dry-fit, and I'm incapable of moving it to anyone else.

If anything, I say it's best to vote somewhere outside the little connection Sotty had to the game.

You made it clear that you understood "vote" and "lynch" to be interchangeable in that sentence. Personally I don't get that, mostly because I know I'm going to be moving my vote over the course of the game, but even if you thought that my vote was "locked in" to lynch dry-fit, do you have a reason for thinking that? I mean, did you just assume that was my playstyle, or do you have meta evidence to back that position?

If you didn't assume I wanted to lynch dry-fit in that sentence, then show me where it was that I implied, as you inaccurately paraphrased me, that the game should avoid lynching charter, SttB, and Moai? Because that was never my intention, as I've explained on three separate occasions, and it isn't even logical play (to clear three people of being scum). What is logical, however, is that we are hesistant to blame these three players for Sotty's death (which may or may not have been a scumshot to being with). Incidentally,

that

is exactly what I advocated.

Either you assumed I wanted to lynch dry-fit with my vote, or you assume that I'm actively trying to clear charter, SttB, and Moai. I don't see another way anyone could come to that conclusion (that there was more than just miscommunication).

---

Extra Credit

. I'm also a bit concerned about Hoopla. There's a lot of Vote hopping and essentially no discussing.

Unvote; vote: Hoopla

Someone pointed out that Hoopla's position on D1 voting is unique, although it isn't unreasonable. It's essentially that everyone's scumhunting on D1 is much less effective than they'd care to admit. I can agree with that, although I know when I get some brilliant idea in my head that it's hard for me to back off from it. Anyways, she doesn't seem to be following that mentality here. She's content with piggybacking on other player's scumhunting, as d3x pointed out, and not really giving input as to why. The Hoopla I've played with is loathe to join someone else's wagon, especially on D1, without giving her own perspective.

Additionally, I requested that she show more initiative, which she has apparently declined to do. Followers can make good lynches, as scum actively try to avoid getting too much attention.

While it could be argued she's not doing a great job avoiding attention by the sheer pointedness of her posts, that still doesn't explain her unwillingness to vote based on her own policy.

[charter]

Lol I didn't ignore it, except when I don't have time to make posts I don't 'check in' with a useless post, I'd rather post a quickie with the thought on top in my mind. I actually had a response worked out but my laptop died before I could finish so I had to start from scratch now that I got home from my friends house.

Your post was pretty useless.

Remember last time you tunneled on me?

Yeah, I was all over scum and then his buddy convinced me to vote you. I do find a defense of "remember last time" as extremely scummy, so you're just digging a deeper grave here. You're trying to say that suspecting you is never right, which for obvious reasons, is not true and scummy.

Why is my mistake so scummy? In mafia you hunt for the motivation behind the idea, what would I stand to gain by making up something so stupendously easy to check on that Col. would obviously protest if I were seriously trying to lead a mislynch as scum?

It's how your vote was just so terrible. You weren't trying to find scum at all with that vote, just putting it down wherever you thought you could, but you slipped up and put it in the wrong place. This is the 'terrible vote' tell I am talking about. It comes from scum.

Shotty's latest post makes me want Shotty dead as soon as possible. Shotty's MIC vote makes me pause on my MIC/Shotty scumteam.

[Konowa]

Snow has completely thrown me off schedule this week. Rereading and refreshing.

[Col.Cathart]

Hey guys. Just got back from mt uncle's birthday and I'm a bit drunk. I'll be back with some insight after I'll be sober again. Thanks!

[Moai Interceptor Cannons]

I'M HERE DON'T CRUCIFY ME. STUFF INCOMING.

MIC: it was fairly clear to me, and apparently several others, that RC was saying that we should deliberately NOT look at those three players at this present time to avoid getting into circular debates over Sotty's comments.

But to me, it was fairly clear that RC was only talking specifically regarding Sotty's kill. Nowhere do I interpret that he was suggesting we give those players an easy ride for the moment. I think RC was right on the mark when he said that everything else attributed to him are complete assumptions derived from enthusiastic townies or capitalising scum.

I had more to say on this, but I notice that RC himself has explained it quite brilliantly.

What's with the aggressive defense of RC? You're saying you don't really know what the points against hijm are but you're sure you can easily refute them?

I'm saying I didn't have the time (or effort) to scan through every post and reply to every sentence that contained "points" against him, hence why I asked someone to sum it up into one post. But thanks for the misrep. Also, I'll overlook your misuse of "aggressive defense", but please do enlighten me as to why strongly disagreeing with a certain wagon is scummy.

The only thing that keeps me suspicious of him is Moai's defense, but I think that point should start with a Moai lynch.

You too. Has reprimanding a wagon I don't like become a universal scumtell in Mafia or something?

Unvote, vote: Moai Interceptor Cannon

s

AND YOU, ARE DEFINITELY A JESTER OR SOMETHING. Dammit Hoopla, why are you being like this? It's not your town meta OR your scum meta. No seriously, why are you being like this? And before you say that you don't know what I'm talking about, just

think

and

ponder

for a moment - notice the one liners, the unexplained votes, the complete departure from how you usually play?

@d3x, charter: I realise that I'm questioning almost everyone who's expressed suspicion of me (not Cathart, because he's the only one that makes sense), but I've yet to see either of you explain your reasons for pointing fingers at me. Why do

you

two think I'm scum?

-----

BTW, I have a lot of things to juggle right now in real life. I'm putting the game I'm modding at priority over the games I'm playing in, and I have only the short period before I go to sleep to post. On some days I sleep right away, and on some days I start to fall asleep after posting in one or two of the three threads I'm meant to be posting in, so I apologise if I don't post in this game enough (RC, you can consider this an honorary 'will post later' post in your game too -- it's Cruciare here).

[sigma]

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Feb 17th, 8:00 pm (EST)

Vote Count:

Col.Cathart ( 0 )
d3x ( 0 )
RedCoyote ( 2 ) Col.Cathart, Locke Lamora
Shotty to the Body ( 2 ) Konowa, charter
Hoopla ( 1 ) RedCoyote
Moai Interceptor Cannons ( 4 ) dry-fit, d3x, Shotty to the Body, Hoopla
charter ( 0 )
Konowa ( 0 )
Nikanor ( 0 )
Locke Lamora ( 2 ) Moai Interceptor Cannons, Nikanor
dry-fit ( 0 )
No Vote ( 0 )

[Hoopla]

Moai, I acknowledge I am blatantly bandwagoning, but I think it's a perfectly viable tactic in a town so dead (actually, even in active towns). Bandwagon analysis is one of the most reliable forms of catching scum - I hate it when people are frigid with their votes.

We're not going to get information from twiddling our thumbs, and posting once every couple of days. I'm also at fault for this one, and I'll be trying harder on this front. We need a nice healthy bandwagon on someone very soon, though.

[Col.Cathart]

Why is it interesting? I'll admit I made a mistake, I didn't check who voted when before making the post, but if you want to call me scum for it just do it, don't beat around the bush. Alluding to things being 'interesting' or whatever else just muddles the pond when people are rereading your posts. I'm probably guilty of this as well, but it's a personal goal to cut down on the 'mysterious ways' style of playing.

*Sigh...* I'll use whatever words I'll like to describe scummy actions (for the record: in my mafia dictionary 'interesting' means scummy or very townie. When I'm playing mafia I'm not interested in anything else), thank you. Point retraction is noted.

What's a 'LOL point?'

= coincidence (or not... Dun Dun Dun!) I found to be funny.

That all being said...

AND YOU, ARE DEFINITELY A JESTER OR SOMETHING.

*twitches* That does it...

unvote

vote: Moai Interceptor Cannons

L-1.

[Locke Lamora]

RC: perhaps you should point out where I said either a) you didn't want to lynch those three players for the entirety of the game or b) that your vote on Dry-fit was locked in and you wanted him lynched. It was quite clear what I meant: that at that specific moment you deliberately did not vote for one of those three players because Sotty mentioned them. I still don't really see why you were talking about blaming anyone for Sotty's death in the first place, given that it was obviously impossible to tell who made the kill.

To clarify, my objection was that you said we should take those players out of the picture and I think it's a bad idea for any player to avoid pressuring others, even just temporarily, simply because they think there might be some WIFOM involved. Below, I have bolded where you said this. If you weren't saying that we should take them out of the picture FOR THE MOMENT, could you explain to me exactly why you made the below comment?

I'm not denying other possibilities, I'm simply saying that

right now I think it's best that we completely take anyone directly involved with Sotty out of the picture.

I could see the town bickering over what are ultimately circular arguments (e.g. "Sotty was shot after she said charter was town... suspicious" "Moai was voted by Sotty, clearly we should lynch him after her killing").

The more I think about it, the other problem I have with this is that you were really saying a whole lot of nothing about the kill. Your vote wasn't based on any suspicions you had and it seems to me that all you were saying about those three players was that we shouldn't go having an argument about which one killed Sotty. I don't know about everyone else, but I certainly wasn't planning to declare 'Sotty voted MIC! He must be scum!'. As such, it strikes me as a fairly pointless statement to make.

[Locke Lamora]

To respond to the other interpretation of that, if all of your comments about taking people out of the picture were about who killed Sotty, and only that, why do you even have a picture? To me, that implies that you were thinking one of the other 8 players made the kill, which again isn't really a helpful line of thought because you still have no way of telling which. I think this could be the main reason why I misinterpreted that; I assumed you were actually talking about the whole game in which we try to catch scum, instead of playing 'guess who killed Sotty'.

[Dry-fit]

What's with the aggressive defense of RC? You're saying you don't really know what the points against hijm are but you're sure you can easily refute them?

I'm saying I didn't have the time (or effort) to scan through every post and reply to every sentence that contained "points" against him, hence why I asked someone to sum it up into one post. But thanks for the misrep. Also, I'll overlook your misuse of "aggressive defense", but please do enlighten me as to why strongly disagreeing with a certain wagon is scummy.

You called the wagon stupid, "the weakest you've seen in yonks," and said that those on the wagon are scum. That is what I call aggressive defense. Despite this though you don't do anything to refute the arguments against him. Surely if you thought the arguments were so weak you understood them, so why would you need someone to summarise them for you?

Dry fit and d3x, what do you guys think of Shotty? Of a Shotty/MIC scumteam?

I don't have much of an opinion of Shotty at this point. I do agree with you that his self-meta defense is scummy though. I also see possible connections between him and MIC, but like d3x I don't think naming scumteams is a great idea at this point.

[charter]

@d3x, charter: I realise that I'm questioning almost everyone who's expressed suspicion of me (not Cathart, because he's the only one that makes sense), but I've yet to see either of you explain your reasons for pointing fingers at me. Why do

you

two think I'm scum?

Calling the Shotty wagon bad, when it was very good. You also called the RC wagon weak. It looks like you're just trying to impede town progress.

And now, you're still voting Locke, haven't given any reason for that, so that's pretty suspicious too.

[RedCoyote]

RC: perhaps you should point out where I said either a) you didn't want to lynch those three players for the entirety of the game or b) that your vote on Dry-fit was locked in and you wanted him lynched. It was quite clear what I meant: that at that specific moment you deliberately did not vote for one of those three players because Sotty mentioned them.

Absolutely I didn't. Why would I vote charter in response to Sotty's kill? Or SttB? or Moai? I specifically stated I didn't want to react to kill toward them in anyway. My vote of Dry-fit caused you to have your own fit (:mrgreen:). This was the first vote on Dry-fit's wagon. You acted as though it was some concession to the idea you cooked up in your head that I am "clearing" or giving some players an "easy ride". This isn't true. I didn't say, "Okay, so I'm going to vote Dry-fit and I have no intention of looking at SttB, charter, or Moai as scum possibilities".

That's not logical. I made the assumption that that was understood.

If you weren't saying that we should take them out of the picture FOR THE MOMENT, could you explain to me exactly why you made the below comment?

Exactly. No, you seem to have it right here. I want to take those three people out of the picture for the moment (the moment meaning the Sotty kill, of course).

If this is your argument, that this is scummy, then have at it. This seems more like a political disagreement to me, but if you think it's strong enough, then there's not much else I can say here (short of arguing the merits of why there is possibly WIFOM there).

I don't know about everyone else, but I certainly wasn't planning to declare 'Sotty voted MIC! He must be scum!'. As such, it strikes me as a fairly pointless statement to make.

You're obviously exaggerating, but I was just giving my opinion. I thought it would be a bad idea to talk about Sotty's kill in relation to those players.

[Locke Lamora]

Ok, I think we're about clear on that one. I do disagree with your approach to the kill but I don't think we're going to get much further by debating it.

Hoopla: bandwagon analysis is useful, yes. What's also useful is people analysing the game and not just voting. Also, if you spend this game sticking your vote on whichever the popular bandwagon is at the time, it really tells us nothing at all about your alignment. You've made virtually no effort to contribute to the game yet you complain that the town is dead.

Unvote; Vote: Hoopla

Moai: do you not think it's incredibly insubstantial to say 'RC is being attacked for something stupid' without actually making a single point about what it is? I appreciate that you might not have the time to react to every person, but even just clarifying that you agreed RC was just talking about the Sotty kill would have been better. Calling the attacks stupid and ridiculous with no concrete points against them just looks like you're trying to score easy points off people without bothering to address their actual arguments. Also, what bothers you about Hoopla's departure from her meta? Do you think it's more likely she's scum because she's not playing to her town meta?

We have less than 72 hours to deadline so it'd be good if everyone could make their position on a Moai lynch clear and, if they disagree with it, put their vote someone else. I'd be happy to hammer but I think a competing wagon would be useful.

[Moai Interceptor Cannons]

Moai, I acknowledge I am blatantly bandwagoning, but I think it's a perfectly viable tactic in a town so dead (actually, even in active towns). Bandwagon analysis is one of the most reliable forms of catching scum - I hate it when people are frigid with their votes.

But what worries me is that you don't usually play like this. Not so much the blatant bandwagoning, but the lack of content to accompany your blatant bandwagoning. What makes you play like this in this game? Have you played like this before?

You called the wagon stupid, "the weakest you've seen in yonks," and said that those on the wagon are scum. That is what I call aggressive defense. Despite this though you don't do anything to refute the arguments against him. Surely if you thought the arguments were so weak you understood them, so why would you need someone to summarise them for you?

I didn't understand them really. I mean weak in a "I don't understand why there's even a wagon on him for that" sense. You people made the magical jump in logic from RC's post --> "he's trying to clear three people" that I couldn't connect. I asked someone to summarise all the RC hate so I could shoot it down all at once instead of post by post, sentence by sentence, point by point. And seriously, if you're town and a wagon suddenly gained momentum based on something you thought was completely stupid you'd think the people on the wagon were scum too.

Calling the Shotty wagon bad, when it was very good. You also called the RC wagon weak. It looks like you're just trying to impede town progress.

And now, you're still voting Locke, haven't given any reason for that, so that's pretty suspicious too.

Haha, now that I look at it, your case on Shotty based on 'diverting attention' or whatever it was about as silly as this RC farce. And calling a weak wagon weak is the townie (i.e. logical) thing to do. My lack of offensive is about your only valid point, though I can blame that on my lack of activity in general. You can't expect me to have someone pinned as scum 24/7 like you do.

AND YOU, ARE DEFINITELY A JESTER OR SOMETHING.

*twitches* That does it....

You know, I've seen people get bashed for jester speculation before, and I consciously said something like that on the assumption that people in this game would have more sense than to act upon it. Guess I was wrong.

Moai: do you not think it's incredibly insubstantial to say 'RC is being attacked for something stupid' without actually making a single point about what it is? I appreciate that you might not have the time to react to every person, but even just clarifying that you agreed RC was just talking about the Sotty kill would have been better. Calling the attacks stupid and ridiculous with no concrete points against them just looks like you're trying to score easy points off people without bothering to address their actual arguments. Also, what bothers you about Hoopla's departure from her meta? Do you think it's more likely she's scum because she's not playing to her town meta?

I feel that the burden of proof lies with the attackers, not otherwise. I couldn't make any sense of why people were piling up on that wagon considering the lack of substance it was based on. Normally, I can make points against a wagon by either replying to points made in favour of the wagon or coming up with my own interpretation of the case and rebutting it. In this case, the latter choice proved quite impossible. I offered to make points against the wagon once someone summed up for me what the points for the wagon were. I could've clarified that I agreed RC was just talking about the Sotty kill, but RC himself has already said this and the wagonpeople still went about attacking him.

Wouldn't it worry you if someone was playing in a way that's completely different than the way you've seen them play? I don't know if she's more likely scum or not, but she's the least retarded option out of the viable wagons now that you've reminded me of the deadline.

Unvote, Vote: Hoopla

.

[Hoopla]

Moai, I acknowledge I am blatantly bandwagoning, but I think it's a perfectly viable tactic in a town so dead (actually, even in active towns). Bandwagon analysis is one of the most reliable forms of catching scum - I hate it when people are frigid with their votes.

But what worries me is that you don't usually play like this. Not so much the blatant bandwagoning, but the lack of content to accompany your blatant bandwagoning. What makes you play like this in this game? Have you played like this before?

I think it mostly depends on my mood. I'm not very good at self-analysis and all that, but maybe Mini 863 and Mafia 105 has similarities for you.

[Konowa]

@dex: charter already alluded to it earlier in his 39. There were already two wagons building which would have allowed for information and discussion later on in the game. I, like many people, also try not to look too much into connections early on, but it reads to me as if he does not want more discussion on one of Moai/Hoopla. By trying to start a third wagon, to me it looks like he is trying to slow down information which I think is scummy. Not commenting on competing wagons while trying to start a third I think is also scummy.

Regarding RC: I think the random vote or dry-fit is nothing more than a throwaway vote. The lack of stance and subsequent camping of the random vote furthers this thought.

I really am having a hard time getting reads on this game. I know I am partially to blame for this with my lack of activity (*grumbles about snow*). At the moment, I think that Shotty and RC are most likely to be scum.

[Konowa]

Add on.

Right now I believe I know everyone's stances besides RC's and Nikanor's. Coupled with his activity I think this is major scum points towards him being scum.

unvote;

vote Red Coyote

Really would like to hear from Nikanor before deadline.

[RedCoyote]

We have less than 72 hours to deadline so it'd be good if everyone could make their position on a Moai lynch clear and, if they disagree with it, put their vote someone else. I'd be happy to hammer but I think a competing wagon would be useful.

I think there's always going to be a bias toward those who agree with you and take your side (e.g. Moai in this case). One that makes it difficult to kind of look at the player as objectively, just as it is when another player is particularly aggressive.

I do feel though, while some may call it buddying, Moai didn't really have to be the naysayer. I feel like Moai controversially agreed with me earlier, when it may not have been as advantageous for him to do so. It just seems like when you have unanimous agreement on how one player is scum (me), the scum would sooner duck into my wagon, or throw out pathetic attempts at looking like they have another important vote, when in reality they have no intent to back it.

Long story short, I like Moai, but I don't think I have a problem with you or the Colonel either.

---

Right now I believe I know everyone's stances besides RC's and Nikanor's. Coupled with his activity I think this is major scum points towards him being scum.

Heh, if anyone here has kind of talked about themselves and their opinion too much, I would've thought it would be me. What else do you want to hear from me? I've voted, explained it, spoken about SttB, spoken about Sotty's death (at extreme length), spoken about Moai and Hoopla... I can't imagine what else you'd want to hear from me.

Right now I'm thinking you either haven't really read the thread too closely or you're pretending like you have. I honestly don't know how someone who's caught up could think they don't know where I stand in this game (whether or not they agree with it).

Really would like to hear from Nikanor before deadline.

Agreed.

Mod

: Can we get another prod and/or start looking for a replacement? It's been about three days since his, "I got a prod!" post.

[Col.Cathart]

You know, I've seen people get bashed for jester speculation before, and I consciously said something like that on the assumption that people in this game would have more sense than to act upon it. Guess I was wrong.

Well, that's only the final reason for the vote. RC's latest posts were quite good. I still have doubts about him, and so about you. The best way to check my theory about you/RC pair is to actually have a lynch on either of you, and you are more scummy than RC at the moment.

[sigma]

Nikanor is being prodded and will be replaced if I need to prod him again.