Teleportation Mafia Universe ONE (MAFIA A WINS!)

[mykonian]

Day 1 Vote Count

ace5993 ( 0 )
DrippingGoofball ( 0 )
elvis_knits ( 1 ) farside22
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 1 ) gayle
fishythefish ( 2 ) evilsnail popsofctown
flareonage ( 1 ) fishythefish
gayle ( 0 )
infinis ( 0 )
mykonian ( 0 )
ojanen ( 0 )
plum ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 0 )
Raskol ( 0 )
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 10 ) ace5993 DrippingGoofball elvis_knits flareonage infinis mykonian ojanen plum Raskol Rhinox
Total Votes ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am

myko: The problem we are running across is the other universe (now known as U2....or OU) wants to send people they feel are scum in our direction. Their talks are using the teleportor to send scummy people our way. If we don't do the same in return we will have to still read the other game anyways and be bomard by people that were scummy in OU.

I know that this way, both universes will try to mess up the other universe, clearly not understanding that that universe will do the same back! This is why I wanted my post quoted on the other side: it is senseless to shove scummy players between the universes, it only makes both universes more likely to lose against town.

The problem you name could be solved by teleporting the player they sent back to them.

mykonian's proposed strategy is very antitown.

If the other town teleports people over here, and we only teleport people back reactively, we're going to end up with more scum/scummy players than them, and we are going to lose.

Pulling confirmed innos from the other universe gives us confirmed innos.

So, unilaterally saying we aren't going to use the mechanic is going to screw us over. Even if we got the other town to agree not to teleport, they wouldn't have any incentive not to break the deal. Even if we trusted them not to teleport as well, both towns are losing the confirmed innos that pulling gives us.

As for "the mod thinks the mechanic will hurt us", I think that the average game's PRs make the game easier for the town than a mountainous setup.

I totally agree that scumhunting is the way to win the game. I think that the best way we can exploit the mechanic is to ignore it during the day (at least for now). For our teleportation strategy, I've already given my thoughts. On teleporting (as opposed to pulling) nights, the teleporter may well often want to send back whoever the OU sent us.

vote: Flareonage

and

FoS: Plum

for buddying with an entire universe.

Shouldn't you be fighting scum, in stead of another universe? And I linked Kairyuus post that gives us a confirmed player: that is exploiting the mechanic in a town way. But if we let too many players switch universe, things might get very confusing, do we agree?

For the start of the game, could everybody answer this question:

what are your scumtells, when you are scum?

[farside22]

myko: The problem we are running across is the other universe (now known as U2....or OU) wants to send people they feel are scum in our direction. Their talks are using the teleportor to send scummy people our way. If we don't do the same in return we will have to still read the other game anyways and be bomard by people that were scummy in OU.

I know that this way, both universes will try to mess up the other universe, clearly not understanding that that universe will do the same back! This is why I wanted my post quoted on the other side: it is senseless to shove scummy players between the universes, it only makes both universes more likely to lose against town.

The problem you name could be solved by teleporting the player they sent back to them.

What do you feel would be the point of having a town teleportor? Should they use their ability? Why or why not?

[popsofctown]

So mykonian, do you think we're in a Prisoner's Dilemma with the other universe about teleporting scums across?

And you want to take the "no squeal/no squeal" option?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

[mykonian]

What do you feel would be the point of having a town teleportor? Should they use their ability? Why or why not?

There is no point to the role. It is not a role that gives an advantage like the cop or the vig. This is because there is one on the other side too. This mechanic is most likely going to mess with our heads, and we don't want that. So I argued not to use them, but I don't think people are going to listen .

And yes, prisoners dillema, with the difference that by sending them back, we can neutralize their action.

[evilsnail]

mykonian, your reasoning doesn't take into account the fact that exchanging scum with Universe 2 creates the possibility of a mafia cross-kill. This means that there is a real advantage to teleporting, assuming that the exchanges roughly even out otherwise.

The only real question, I think, is whether we direct the teleport or leave it up to teleporter.

Also:

Unvote: fishythefish,
Vote: farside22

For casting the most fishy vote so far.

[popsofctown]

That doesn't completely eliminate the problem though, because what if our game or theirs ends while we have a scum they shipped on us but have yet to give back? So we have about a halfway chance of getting screwed by about one scum.

Could you explain again why no teleporting at all is superior to the teleportation freeforall?

[popsofctown]

simulposted.


I caught that pun snail.

[Gayle]

The only real question, I think, is whether we direct the teleport or leave it up to teleporter.

Either way it is left up to the teleporter. If we want a person teleported, we just let the teleporter know and they'll do whatever they want. There is no reason to rig up some system to select the teleportee, because in the end it is up to the teleporter no matter what anyone else does.

The strategies have been presented. The dissents have been presented. Can we move on now?

[mykonian]

mykonian, your reasoning doesn't take into account the fact that exchanging scum with Universe 2 creates the possibility of a mafia cross-kill. This means that there is a real advantage to teleporting, assuming that the exchanges roughly even out otherwise.

The only real question, I think, is whether we direct the teleport or leave it up to teleporter.

Yay, cross kills! How often do those happen during the start of the game, and is the chance that mafia shoots each other worth the confusion? Is it worth the risk they may shoot an extra towny in this universe, etc?

And what PR is being directed from the start of the game? May I remember you that scum could influence it too then, for their own use? The teleporter is 100% town, lets keep the teleportation 100% town too.

Now, I wouldn't mind if some people answered my question I posted earlier:

what are your scumtells when you are scum?

[mykonian]

@Mykonian in U1: since you're against all teleporting between universes, how do you feel about the kairyuu's plan to have the teleporters claim? Is this beneficial to town, and to both universes?

Confirmed townies are cool. So yes, Kai already knows he is brilliant, I just confirm it.

[popsofctown]

The strategies have been presented. The dissents have been presented. Can we move on now?

Do you think the strategy discussion is delaying scumhunting? It can be quite the springboard.

Strategy discussion is better than no discussion. What exactly are you advocating here gayle? Because you sure haven't presented an alternate direction for the town.

[mykonian]

Since I feel absolutely no need for going into a RVS on this moment, could at least someone answer my question?

[Gayle]

Do you think the strategy discussion is delaying scumhunting? It can be quite the springboard.

Strategy discussion is better than no discussion. What exactly are you advocating here gayle? Because you sure haven't presented an alternate direction for the town.

I think that continuing discussing strategy is pointless. Seems to me that the teleporters will decide for themselves on what to do. You are right in that it is better than discussing nothing, but it feels like the game still hasn't begun because we haven't decided on a strategy. You say that it can be quite the springboard, but I think it will just lead to someone being accused as scum for liking one strategy over another. I'm sure someone with say that is fine, but I'd rather not go down that route.

As for an alternative direction, I'd prefer if the strategy discussion hadn't interrupted the rvs.

what are your scumtells when you are scum?

I've never been scum, so I wouldn't know.

[farside22]

Why in the world of chaos would you want the teleporter to claim when you see this as the mod's sequence:

Order of Actions:
1. New Teleporter is selected if old one was killed or teleported
2. Mafia Kill
3. Town Teleporting or Pulling
4. Mafia Teleporting or Pulling
5. New Teleporter is selected if old one was lynched or pulled.

So you want the mafia to kill a confirmed town just to get another townie confirmed and keep doing this every day?

[farside22]

what are your scumtells when you are scum?

Oh come on this question sucks why should I share my scum tells to hurt me in other games?
I can already hear the people ready to lynch me for the above but telling people your scum tells does hurt you for other games.
idk I range with being quiet, lurky to talkative depending on the game. I do bus my scum partner on many occasions I can think of. I think I jump on cases just with a me too kind of post at times if I feel lost in a game and I don't know where else to go. I notice I don't try to motivate a game and I purposly miss things that are scum tells from my partner if I think they are safe from a lynch or being voted on.
Obviously my scum tell is on a wide range because acting the same in a game means people know you to be scum and use that meta against you.

[evilsnail]

Yay, cross kills! How often do those happen during the start of the game, and is the chance that mafia shoots each other worth the confusion? Is it worth the risk they may shoot an extra towny in this universe, etc?

If they shoot an extra townie in one universe, they shoot no townie in the other universe. So, on average, this balances out. A cross-kill, however, is unambiguously good for town.

And what PR is being directed from the start of the game? May I remember you that scum could influence it too then, for their own use? The teleporter is 100% town, lets keep the teleportation 100% town too.

Well yeah, but the same is true of a lynch. I mean, probably leaving up to the teleporter is the way to go, since having to vote for it would be a hassle. But, in principle, it would buy us a lot of info.

[farside22]

Looking at things I'm starting to agree with myko in regards to not using the teleporter unless the OU teleports someone to us.
It does keep things balanced and we don't have to worry about the OU unless they are lynching like crazy and telporting up a storm is my only concern.
I noticed a BW forming rather quickly in the OU.

[popsofctown]

Pops in

purple

red

let's keep purple for zoraster

Do you think the strategy discussion is delaying scumhunting? It can be quite the springboard.

Strategy discussion is better than no discussion. What exactly are you advocating here gayle? Because you sure haven't presented an alternate direction for the town.

I think that continuing discussing strategy is pointless. Seems to me that the teleporters will decide for themselves on what to do.

Without reading the thread? They can see every point that is brought up and make a better decision

You are right in that it is better than discussing nothing, but it feels like the game still hasn't begun because we haven't decided on a strategy. You say that it can be quite the springboard, but I think it will just lead to someone being accused as scum for liking one strategy over another.

Yaaaay! Slippery slope fallacy! FUN! Where's my sled, Hobbes?

I'm sure someone with say that is fine, but I'd rather not go down that route.

Hopefully someone will say it's okay to discuss something and accept the spine-chilling risk that someone, somewhere will form a fallacious argument against a player.

As for an alternative direction, I'd prefer if the strategy discussion hadn't interrupted the rvs.

......this is a joke right? This has to be a joke. As if the strategy discussion created a post restriction that cut off random vote posts anyway.

what are your scumtells when you are scum?

I've never been scum, so I wouldn't know.

[Gayle]

Without reading the thread? They can see every point that is brought up and make a better decision

Notice the word 'continuing'. My point was that the strategies have already been presented, people have already pointed out the problems with each strategy, now it is up to the teleporters to decide which one they want to use.

......this is a joke right? This has to be a joke. As if the strategy discussion created a post restriction that cut off random vote posts anyway.

Notice the word 'interrupted'. No, it does not restrict people from participating in the RVS, but people aren't going to bother with the RVS when there is a strategy discussion going on.

Slippery slope, fallacy, whatever. I just gave my opinion. I realize that there is no way I'm putting an end to the strategy discussion, and you are right that it will lead somewhere eventually, so I'll just be here hitting F5 until then.

[Fishythefish]

Shouldn't you be fighting scum, in stead of another universe? And I linked Kairyuus post that gives us a confirmed player: that is exploiting the mechanic in a town way. But if we let too many players switch universe, things might get very confusing, do we agree?

For the start of the game, could everybody answer this question:

what are your scumtells, when you are scum?

I am fighting scum, entirely in this universe. My vote was for Plum, who I feel was buddying with this universe, by trying to foster a communal hatred of the other universe.

I agree that things might get confusing if too many players switch universe.

If, right now, I had the option to completely eliminate all teleporting mechanics, I'd find that a very hard decision. There's a balance between the benefits we get (largely, pulling over confirmed innos) and the confusion that may result. I think I'd probaly lean towards keeping the teleporting, actually. But in practise, we don't have that option. Our teleporter is

always

going to claim if the other universe is more desirable and they are going into a pulling night - otherwise he violates "play to win". We are playing to win, in this town. We cannot let the other town screw us over by having one of their scummy players here at all times.

As for my scumtells (completed games only):
Internally, I worry like fuck about nearly every post I write. I imagine, and often believe, that in this post I'm dropping some massive cast-iron scumtell, and will be lynched immediately. Externally, I think (hope, pray) that it's rather more subtle. As scum, I put more emphasis on cold hard logic, and less on gut feeling. I tend to think about pairings more. On the one occasion I've actually had a scumpartner, I bussed him hugely (but this, I think, was largely due to circumstance).
In many games as town, I try to achieve a state of stream-of-conciousness posting, in which I am totally transparent on whatever subject I am adressing, and obviously so - the idea is that I express natural modes of thought better than can be faked. When I feel I have done this well, people tend to have town reads on me. This obvious honesty is something I have not yet been able to fake as scum (although I don't manage this in anywhere near all my town games).
This is particularly easy early on, when there is little information to analyse, and artificial thoughts are harder to construct. In the vast majority (I suspect all) of my last 7 or so games I played from the start, at least one person has expressed a town read on me within 7 or so pages. Since I haven't started a game as scum, I can't say whether this will be true then, but I doubt it.

[popsofctown]

Without reading the thread? They can see every point that is brought up and make a better decision

Notice the word 'continuing'. My point was that the strategies have already been presented, people have already pointed out the problems with each strategy, now it is up to the teleporters to decide which one they want to use.

......this is a joke right? This has to be a joke. As if the strategy discussion created a post restriction that cut off random vote posts anyway.

Notice the word 'interrupted'. No, it does not restrict people from participating in the RVS, but people aren't going to bother with the RVS when there is a strategy discussion going on.

Slippery slope, fallacy, whatever. I just gave my opinion. I realize that there is no way I'm putting an end to the strategy discussion, and you are right that it will lead somewhere eventually, so I'll just be here hitting F5 until then.

@mod: sorry. I couldn't remember the modcolor, so I tried to think of a color I thought a mod would never use. Mebbe I should have gone pink since zoraster's a duder. Or bothered to ctrl+x and check.


@Gayle: Why the sam hill do you think people would ignore RVS for a strategy discussion? I'll give you a hint, it's not because RVS is useful.

[farside22]

Notice the word 'interrupted'. No, it does not restrict people from participating in the RVS, but people aren't going to bother with the RVS when there is a strategy discussion going on.

Why is RVS important? Isn't it better to have some communication between players and judge players on what they said and vote for them based on that then RVS?

[popsofctown]

For townies it is.

[Flareonage]

VOTE: Fishythefish

OMGUS!!

[popsofctown]

Request permission to make a pokemon related joke