Mini 912 - Little Golden Mafia (OVER)

[kunkstar7]

This is because we moved from a useless convo to determining whether this useless convo was a scumtell. I was afraid that the hydra thing had not yet ended the RVS, so I just randomly bandwagoned.

Can I ask how is randomly bandwagoning ever good? How would it bring a quicker end to the RVS?

Panzerjager, I tend to say that things aren't likely unless they are going to occur or are true. What do I do if all you do is assume the wrong things about my posts? All I can say is "No, I was doing this in order to..."

From your point of view you say its not likely, yet your actions are viewed otherwise. So in this case it is viable to say that its likely. I don't like this quote. If you are town then it is your fault that your play looks scummy, the blame is not on the town for coming to a specific conclusion from your post.

VOTE COUNT:

chamber (0) -
DedicatedScribe (4) - Phlight, MacavityLock, Panzerjager, Trumpet of Doom
dramonic (0) -
kunkstar7 (0) -
Limerickx (1) - Kunkstar7
lobstermania (1) - dramonic
MacavityLock (0) -
Panzerjager (0) -
peanutman (2) - totallynotmafia, DedicatedScribe
Phlight (0) -
totallynotmafia (2) - lobstermania, peanutman
Trumpet of Doom (1) - Limerickx

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Side note, prods were a bit late this time, apologies there. Busy weekend due to job acquisition.

[totallynotmafia]

TNM, that wasnt a contradiction at all. There were few votes on me att of that post.

How do the votes on you have anything to do with the contradiction? The two statements are a contradiction regardless, what I was trying to say was that the first statement where you said you didn't think there was enough to end the RVS, that was right after Phlight voted you, which makes it look as if you're all for continuing the RVS if the first non-random serious vote is on you.

I'm not sure i know what precursor means, but if I'm right, then I don't see how that sets up a precursor. It's more of stating fact. I didn't say "if they make a contradiction w/o blah blah, we lynch them", but instead "we can take it as a scumtell". And wouldn't we?

But I believe the fact to be "we can take it as a POSSIBLE scumtell". After reading what you said again perhaps you meant the same thing by saying "can". Is this what you meant? Basically my point is that Phlight could still make inconsistencies as town as a result of two different people posting under the one name, so if we just take every inconsistency he says as a scumtell then it could result in a mislynch. Of course we can't ignore inconsistencies from him just because he's a hydra but I think it would be pretty careless to just go "theres an inconsistency, let's lynch him" which is what I thought you were more or less hinting we could do. Maybe it was just a problem with semantics, if not though I'd be happy to explain this further.

With all that in mind, this post worries me:

I think the whole plight hydra situation depends on the nature of the way they post, if they just log on individually and post without consulting each other then with two quite possibly different opinions there's a good chance Plight's posts are going to be riddled with inconsistencies, which means we're not going to be sure if it's because plight is scum or just the nature of the hydra.

If however they consult with each other before each post, and point out in the thread when they disagree on something then I think it would be fine. It's only the second page so it's kind of hard to say either way.

@Plight: with regards to what I've said could you clear up the way you two will be posting?

So whatever messups they make, unless they say beforehand its bcuz they're hydras, we can take it as a scumtell.

This seems as if DS is setting up the precurser for that possible mislynch.

Or stating the obvious? Do you disagree that if Plight makes a contradiction, even if only resulting from using a hydra, that we can take it as a scumtell?

See my above response to DS, I agree if by that you mean we can take it as a possible scumtell.

I also don't like this contradiction:

But it doesnt seem if there's been enough to end the RVS.

The RVS is meant to be ended. The faster it ends, the better. Why make it last longer than it needs to?

So it's alright to end the RVS, as long as it's not you being voted for? Care to explain that DS?

I don't see how this is a contradiction, and I also don't see how its saying what you claimed.

Do you honestly not see that contradiction? In the first statement he is saying that the RVS needs to go for longer (which is after the first real vote, on him) and in the second he is saying that RVS should be ended as quickly as possible, and "why make it last longer than it needs to?" That's a contradiction, he has changed his opinion on something in order to suit the situation. He's clearly not happy for the RVS to end with the only serious vote on him, and then later he says that he thinks the RVS should be ended quickly in order to defend the accusations from Panzer.

Limerick, I picked up on totallynotmafia's comments as well.

Well if you are town I hope that you will put the same effort into avoiding inconsistencies as you would if you were scum, otherwise I can see it as being a disadvantage for the rest of us because of the greater potential of you being mislynched. Honestly though if I didn't know already, so far I wouldn't be able to tell you're a hydra.

This it total fluff to me. Wouldn't you want every town member to avoid inconsistencies? And how is a hydra at a greater potential of being mislynched?

Yes, but don't you agree that two people, with two different brains, and two different opinions, posting under the one name are more likely to present inconsistencies than anyone else? And that they would go to more effort to avoid these inconsistencies as mafia rather than town? These are the reasons that if Phlight is lazy as town he is more likely to be mislynched, judging from his posts so far I don't think that he will be lazy about it though.

This seems as if DS is setting up the precurser for that possible mislynch.

Wasn't DS just saying what a few others have already said? That basically being a hydra is not an excuse.

See my above response to DS. I'm happy to drop the phlight discussion as long as we're all on the same page. Mainly just so I never have to say "inconsistency" again.

Yeah, I just made a post in my newbie game why I think inactivity hurts the town, I'm guessing I don't have to outline that here.

I also find this hypocritical. You post to make a point about inactivity without contributing anything new.
I try to play this game in a way that all my posts contribute to the discussion in one-way or another. Stating that there's inactivity and that's it not helpful for the town in a non-newb game doesn't seem productive to me. If things are dead, re-read the thread, post new questions, follow up on leads however slim they may be. But don't post about inactivity while essentially being inactive in the same breath.

How is that hypocritical when the last substantial post before that was made by me? And what is the length of time the thread has to be inactive before you're allowed to comment on it?

[PJ.]

I'm liking my Dedicated Scribe vote more and more as the game goes on. I think he needs some more pressure and a claim about now.

[kunkstar7]

I'm liking my Dedicated Scribe vote more and more as the game goes on. I think he needs some more pressure and a claim about now.

Why do you think that he needs to claim already?

[DedicatedScribe]

TNM, that wasnt a contradiction at all. There were few votes on me att of that post.

How do the votes on you have anything to do with the contradiction? The two statements are a contradiction regardless, what I was trying to say was that the first statement where you said you didn't think there was enough to end the RVS, that was right after Phlight voted you, which makes it look as if you're all for continuing the RVS if the first non-random serious vote is on you.

I'm not sure i know what precursor means, but if I'm right, then I don't see how that sets up a precursor. It's more of stating fact. I didn't say "if they make a contradiction w/o blah blah, we lynch them", but instead "we can take it as a scumtell". And wouldn't we?

But I believe the fact to be "we can take it as a POSSIBLE scumtell". After reading what you said again perhaps you meant the same thing by saying "can". Is this what you meant? Basically my point is that Phlight could still make inconsistencies as town as a result of two different people posting under the one name, so if we just take every inconsistency he says as a scumtell then it could result in a mislynch. Of course we can't ignore inconsistencies from him just because he's a hydra but I think it would be pretty careless to just go "theres an inconsistency, let's lynch him" which is what I thought you were more or less hinting we could do. Maybe it was just a problem with semantics, if not though I'd be happy to explain this further.

With all that in mind, this post worries me:

I think the whole plight hydra situation depends on the nature of the way they post, if they just log on individually and post without consulting each other then with two quite possibly different opinions there's a good chance Plight's posts are going to be riddled with inconsistencies, which means we're not going to be sure if it's because plight is scum or just the nature of the hydra.

If however they consult with each other before each post, and point out in the thread when they disagree on something then I think it would be fine. It's only the second page so it's kind of hard to say either way.

@Plight: with regards to what I've said could you clear up the way you two will be posting?

So whatever messups they make, unless they say beforehand its bcuz they're hydras, we can take it as a scumtell.

This seems as if DS is setting up the precurser for that possible mislynch.

Or stating the obvious? Do you disagree that if Plight makes a contradiction, even if only resulting from using a hydra, that we can take it as a scumtell?

See my above response to DS, I agree if by that you mean we can take it as a possible scumtell.

I also don't like this contradiction:

But it doesnt seem if there's been enough to end the RVS.

The RVS is meant to be ended. The faster it ends, the better. Why make it last longer than it needs to?

So it's alright to end the RVS, as long as it's not you being voted for? Care to explain that DS?

I don't see how this is a contradiction, and I also don't see how its saying what you claimed.

Do you honestly not see that contradiction? In the first statement he is saying that the RVS needs to go for longer (which is after the first real vote, on him) and in the second he is saying that RVS should be ended as quickly as possible, and "why make it last longer than it needs to?" That's a contradiction, he has changed his opinion on something in order to suit the situation. He's clearly not happy for the RVS to end with the only serious vote on him, and then later he says that he thinks the RVS should be ended quickly in order to defend the accusations from Panzer.

Limerick, I picked up on totallynotmafia's comments as well.

Well if you are town I hope that you will put the same effort into avoiding inconsistencies as you would if you were scum, otherwise I can see it as being a disadvantage for the rest of us because of the greater potential of you being mislynched. Honestly though if I didn't know already, so far I wouldn't be able to tell you're a hydra.

This it total fluff to me. Wouldn't you want every town member to avoid inconsistencies? And how is a hydra at a greater potential of being mislynched?

Yes, but don't you agree that two people, with two different brains, and two different opinions, posting under the one name are more likely to present inconsistencies than anyone else? And that they would go to more effort to avoid these inconsistencies as mafia rather than town? These are the reasons that if Phlight is lazy as town he is more likely to be mislynched, judging from his posts so far I don't think that he will be lazy about it though.

This seems as if DS is setting up the precurser for that possible mislynch.

Wasn't DS just saying what a few others have already said? That basically being a hydra is not an excuse.

See my above response to DS. I'm happy to drop the phlight discussion as long as we're all on the same page. Mainly just so I never have to say "inconsistency" again.

Yeah, I just made a post in my newbie game why I think inactivity hurts the town, I'm guessing I don't have to outline that here.

I also find this hypocritical. You post to make a point about inactivity without contributing anything new.
I try to play this game in a way that all my posts contribute to the discussion in one-way or another. Stating that there's inactivity and that's it not helpful for the town in a non-newb game doesn't seem productive to me. If things are dead, re-read the thread, post new questions, follow up on leads however slim they may be. But don't post about inactivity while essentially being inactive in the same breath.

How is that hypocritical when the last substantial post before that was made by me? And what is the length of time the thread has to be inactive before you're allowed to comment on it?

It's NOT a contradiction. I did NOT say that the RVS needs to go on longer; I said it seems the RVS has yet to end. Random votes were still occurring, despite the serious vote. I thought everyone might ignore the whole conflict and keep random voting. I also considered that maybe we'd end up in a stupid argument about whether hydras should sig their posts.

I'm really confused atm with all the attacks.
So far, it seems people think
* I'm trying to set up mislynches (I'm not. How do I explain this?)
* I made a contradiction. (I didn't. I'll try to make it more clear as we go on.)

Is this right?

I don't see why I need to claim just yet. Why do you think so?

I don't regret any of my actions so far, except maybe the wording of my posts. We've got a lot of content, nonetheless. I'll look through it when I have time.

[lobstermania]

I'm here. It's been a very long weekend. I'll post tomorrow after I get some rest.

[DedicatedScribe]

This is because we moved from a useless convo to determining whether this useless convo was a scumtell. I was afraid that the hydra thing had not yet ended the RVS, so I just randomly bandwagoned.

Can I ask how is randomly bandwagoning ever good? How would it bring a quicker end to the RVS?

Panzerjager, I tend to say that things aren't likely unless they are going to occur or are true. What do I do if all you do is assume the wrong things about my posts? All I can say is "No, I was doing this in order to..."

From your point of view you say its not likely, yet your actions are viewed otherwise. So in this case it is viable to say that its likely. I don't like this quote. If you are town then it is your fault that your play looks scummy, the blame is not on the town for coming to a specific conclusion from your post.

For the first part, randomly bandwagoning brings serious votes (against onself) instead of random votes on random people.

Sure it's my fault my play looks scummy (see above). But if I outwardly do it on purpose to achieve a pro-town end, then there should be no issue.

How is trying to end the RVS scummy? Apparently some of you don't think its the best play, but still.

[PJ.]

Setting out to end the RVS is scummy because you're trying to deny the town knowledge. A lot of connections could be estblished via the RVS and what the outlook of the game coming out of it is.

You have done plenty to warrant pressure and a vote and are doing a poor job defending yourself, pretty much just saying "Nuh Uh".

[PJ.]

warrant a claim..not a vote.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Sure it's my fault my play looks scummy (see above). But if I outwardly do it on purpose to achieve a pro-town end, then there should be no issue.

The issue is, if you intentionally look scummy as town, then when you look scummy as scum, you can say "but I do this as town!" and people can't tell whether you're doing it because you're misguided town who thinks it's a good idea or because you're actually scum. You should not be able to get away with that. (You also shouldn't want to do it in the first place - you're essentially sabotaging yourself in 70% of your games to give yourself something resembling an advantage in the other 30% - but that's a slightly different discussion.)

(On an unrelated note, DS, you only need to quote the specific part of a post you're responding to. Really.)

[Phlight]

DedicatedScribe is claiming that he's acting scummy on purpose in order to achieve a bandwagon on himself to end the RVS. Heh.

I'd like to see votes from some of the fence-sitters like totallynotmafia who giving the wagon lip service but no votes.

[dramonic]

You can't just play scummy, have people vote you and then expect to say "doing it on purpose!" and for people to remove their votes. The RVS serves a purpose, weither you like it or not. Some of those votes are warranted.

Then, there's PJ on the other hand who's just going berserk over you. 4 votes is hardly enough to warrant a claim :S

[DedicatedScribe]

Sure it's my fault my play looks scummy (see above). But if I outwardly do it on purpose to achieve a pro-town end, then there should be no issue.

The issue is, if you intentionally look scummy as town, then when you look scummy as scum, you can say "but I do this as town!" and people can't tell whether you're doing it because you're misguided town who thinks it's a good idea or because you're actually scum. You should not be able to get away with that. (You also shouldn't want to do it in the first place - you're essentially sabotaging yourself in 70% of your games to give yourself something resembling an advantage in the other 30% - but that's a slightly different discussion.)

(On an unrelated note, DS, you only need to quote the specific part of a post you're responding to. Really.)

Takes too much time, really.

You see, I can't say everything I do is scummy, because everything I do is not during the RVS.

I do suppose I shouldn't do this anymore; as I always seem to do bad when I participate in the gamestart (first 8 pages or so), but since I don't have a meta..

**

Panzerjager, any connections found during the RVS are WIFOM, until we get to the part where serious votes are made. I'm denying the town nothing.

Phlight, I thought I had made that obv since the start of the game O.o

Also, what makes my defense so terrible, Panzer?

[DedicatedScribe]

But it doesnt seem if there's been enough to end the RVS.

Omg

Vote: Limerickx

Hai.

****

limerickx is here.

vote limerickx

A) Phlight, can you explain the sig on your posts, multiple player/personality thing? I think I missed something.

B)

Vote : MacavityLock

, wouldn't want to be in a deadlock with him.

unvote; vote peanutman

Peanuts are meant for being broken open to find all the treats inside. They're nature's pinata.

These all evidence of my purpose.

I immediately bandwagoned onto any random vote I could. Would scum do this?

if that's how it's gonna be ^^

But it doesnt seem if there's been enough to end the RVS.

The reason you voted for me was not suitable. I already posted why.

You mean a mild argument where very few people isn't enough to end the random voting stage? Taking sides would certainly be a nice means to quickly leave this part of the game behind. Or are you of the notion that arbitrary votes would be a better continuation of the game? I don't understand why you appear to be opposed to leaving the RVS.

I think Phlight misread my post terribly here. He somehow came to the conclusion that I was trying to continue the RVS (?)

[kunkstar7]

I immediately bandwagoned onto any random vote I could. Would scum do this?

Why would town do this? Even under the purpose of ending the RVS bandwagonning onto any random vote is only a continuation of the RVS. So it would be self-defeating.

There is no reason for town to purposely make themselves look scummy. As town you have to be trusted. You must do everything to build that trust with town so that you can make sure you are not mislynched and any tells you find can be believed.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Takes too much time, really.

No, it really doesn't, but that's not worth getting into an argument.

You see, I can't say everything I do is scummy, because everything I do is not during the RVS.

But everything you've done so far this game has been during either the RVS or this discussion on how we've come to the conclusion you're scum. And I don't think you've been defending yourself in a townie manner.

Panzerjager, any connections found during the RVS are WIFOM, until we get to the part where serious votes are made. I'm denying the town nothing.

Except that the connections there can be used later. Are you getting it?

But it doesnt seem if there's been enough to end the RVS.

Omg

Vote: Limerickx

Hai.

****

limerickx is here.

vote limerickx

A) Phlight, can you explain the sig on your posts, multiple player/personality thing? I think I missed something.

B)

Vote : MacavityLock

, wouldn't want to be in a deadlock with him.

unvote; vote peanutman

Peanuts are meant for being broken open to find all the treats inside. They're nature's pinata.

These all evidence of my purpose.

Uhh... what? I see a post that does not obviously indicate you'd like the RVS to be over, then two jokevotes, which I thought the RVS was intended to get out of people's systems. How were the posts you quoted supposed to be at all indicative of a desire to end the RVS quickly?

I immediately bandwagoned onto any random vote I could. Would scum do this?

Well, obviously. I mean, you did, didn't you?

I don't see a scum-specific reason not to, if that's what you're asking. And trying to defend yourself with WIFOM like that is absolutely horrible.

[totallynotmafia]

DS, you're just further contraditicting yourself because there WAS a serious vote on you - the one from phlight. If you really believed the RVS should be ended as quickly as possible you would have ended it right there, by continuing to randomly vote you're only prolonging it. Even if you thought that the quickest way to end the RVS was to randomly bandwagon and get serious votes on you (which is just downright silly) there was no need to because you already had the serious vote from phlight. I believe you continued randomly voting in order to continue the RVS so that the attention would be taken away from you.

And there's another contradiction because you say the random bandwaggoning was to attract serious votes on you, which means you must think randomly bandwaggoning is a scummy way to act. But then you say this:

I immediately bandwagoned onto any random vote I could. Would scum do this?

I'd like to see votes from some of the fence-sitters like totallynotmafia who giving the wagon lip service but no votes.

Well he said he could defend himself so I gave him the chance but his defence has only resulted in more contradictions so:

Unvote, vote: DedicatedScribe

If you are town then you seriously need to rethink the way you play because you're not helping at all by trying to get votes on you.

[DedicatedScribe]

Those votes were not random: they were bandwagons. Bandwagons to bring more attention onto me.

I think randomly bandwagoning is considered scummy, if done subtly like scum does. Many a RVS have ended b/c people pointed a finger at people who "randomly" voted for someone who currently had vote(s) on them.

But yea, I did this all wrong.

A role claim probably will be necessary. I'm a mason.

I won't claim for him/her, however, because I feel the end result would be the same, but worse (I get lynched, and my mason is both useless and now known to be useless, all because of my stupidity). If you think claiming would stop the lynch, then go ahead.

So sorry for the fail play. I'll get better.

[totallynotmafia]

Hmm...interesting, there is something that backs your claim up somewhat, I don't want to say anything more yet though because I don't have any experience with masons so I don't know if it's detrimental to the town for them to be outed or not.

[MacavityLock]

Sorry again. Work backed up a bit.

Unvote

for the moment, given claim. In your role PM, is your mason partner confirmed as townie?

These all evidence of my purpose.

I immediately bandwagoned onto any random vote I could. Would scum do this?

Again, what was the purpose of doing this twice? Doesn't it dilute your supposed bandwagoning goal? I'm generally fine with bandwagoning early, but I don't understand the subsequent switch.

[Trumpet of Doom]

What story are you? What about your partner?

Are you and your partner confirmed town to each other? If so, I think it's probably a good idea to claim who they are and let them confirm your claim (on the grounds that it's really nice to have confirmed town around, due to its effect on the nightkill).

[Limerickx]

I also don't like this contradiction:

But it doesnt seem if there's been enough to end the RVS.

The RVS is meant to be ended. The faster it ends, the better. Why make it last longer than it needs to?

So it's alright to end the RVS, as long as it's not you being voted for? Care to explain that DS?

I don't see how this is a contradiction, and I also don't see how its saying what you claimed.

Do you honestly not see that contradiction? In the first statement he is saying that the RVS needs to go for longer (which is after the first real vote, on him) and in the second he is saying that RVS should be ended as quickly as possible, and "why make it last longer than it needs to?" That's a contradiction, he has changed his opinion on something in order to suit the situation. He's clearly not happy for the RVS to end with the only serious vote on him, and then later he says that he thinks the RVS should be ended quickly in order to defend the accusations from Panzer.

I suppose when you put it that way it makes sense. I don't know if it gives me a particularly scummy vibe however, as I can see a townie doing the same just as easily.

Yeah.....DedicatedScribe apparently thinks acting scummy is ok if it get us out of RTS? Awful

As far as the claim goes, I'll think on it for a second. Work has been ass-kicking, so I'll think on it.

[Limerickx]

I'd be interested in knowing the story as well at least.

[Riceballtail]

Chamber has not posted, and will be replaced by Wolframnhart.

[wolframnhart]

Hello all, fun four pages to read up on.

Even though the subject has been gone around in circles I just wanna say who cares about the hydra account crap? Unless you played with Phlight and knew he was a hydra account the only way you would have known is by the sig at the bottom. Phlight is not doing anything against rules, doesn't get more info, etc so just pretend it is one person and move on.

@DS
Usually people who want to end RVS have some kind of information they think they have gotten from one or more players, information that could really start the town on good discussion, when really all that ended up happening is arguments over a subject that didn't need to go beyond two posts, and a wagon against you for good reason. Now if your town role confirms you and your partner are confirmed masons your partner should claim due to the fact that it would help to have confirmed townies around.