Mod Quoting

[rite]

Well, I just succumbed to my first ever modkill, for quoting a mod's PM. Well, paraphrasing it.

I am not challenging Yaw's authority to kill me [after all, everything is up to the mod, see my Don't Be Stupid mafia ], I'm just curious as to people's policies concerning mod quoting.

I was always under the impression that, unless specified, direct quoting and letter-counting of role PMs were out of the question. Paraphrasing, though, to some extent, is ok.

As I write that though, I realize that there really aren't really any real boundaries, in my mind, as to what is acceptable and what isn't. I guess I just call it like I see it.

What are your views?

[Talitha]

I can't really comment on your case as I don't know what your role PM said.
And like you said, Yaw's da boss.

As a general comment, I would personally prefer for mods to design their role PMs such that even if a player does quote the 9th letter of their win condition, it has no effect on the game. Many mods do this (including Yaw), I know.

Mafia is a competitive game and it's human nature to try and use all the information you have to try and get an advantage. So if the mods can plan ahead and foil any role-PM-comparing kind of tactic, then I think that's great.

I think I'd still mod-kill for a blatant flouting of the rules though.

[jeep]

Clearly, this case cannot be discussed in too much detail, so should be tabled until after the game.

In general, don't try to skirt the "quote the mod" rule and you won't get in trouble with it. Mods have widely varying views of how much is allowed.

-JEEP

[Yaw]

Not to say anything about stuff that would in any way compromise the game while it's in progress, but I do want to address this a bit.

I do want you to know I debated this with myself for quite a while, and also talked with Cam (who reviewed the setup). The quote, as it was, was borderline. It was very close to what was in the PM, though with slight differences it was debatable. What made up my mind was that the wording of the quote was such that I thought quoting was intended, and that violated the spirit of the rule.

I don't mind extra information from mod PMs making their way into the game. What I had a problem with was the "let's almost quote the mod to see if anyone else has something similar in their PMs" deal.

Otherwise, this is an interesting topic for discussion, and I'm curious to hear what others have to say. Although I won't be able to say any more about this case specifically until the game is over, and think the conversation should be more in general until that point.

[PeaceBringer]

if it was a near quote and just trying to get by the letter of the rule while violating the spirit of the rule then it was the right call in my book.

[SpeedyKQ]

A good rule of thumb is, when in doubt, ask the mod via PM before you post.

[PolarBoy]

Aye, Speedy.

This is one of those reciprocal relationships where each side could do only enouch to blame the other if something went wrong, but I think it's better to go a step beyond.

On the one hand, a mod should write PMs in such a way that quoting is useless, or at least less useful(See Black and White, mini 76, or any of a number of newbie games for comepletely opposite approaches to the same concept). That way it stands to reason that any sort of communication based on minor details is also useless.

On the other hand, it's not really in the spirit of the game to use minute details of the wording of PMs to back up your alibi. Besides that, I've said it before and I'll say it again: If you don't try to ruin a setup, you can make it playable even if it isn't, but if you try to ruin it you can make it unplayable even if it is.

Meanwhile I'm working on "Scrubbed Mafia", a highly standardized set of rules and roles such that there are no grey areas. I don't think it's possible to make it perfect, but I can darn well try.

[rolandofthewhite]

I always wondered what modkilling was, since I'd never seen one.

Now I know...

::hides under a rock::

[TBuG]

I'm not going to make a no mod-quoting rule in my games. I just don't like that rule.

[Cubsfan4life]

...Are you kidding?

[shelper]

If you do decide to do that, at least try and make sure to write all townie PM's differently. or the game might quickly turn into an

"if you're really a townie, what is the third word in your role PM?"

.

[PolarBoy]

That was easily the lamest thing that happened in both Princess Bride Mafia and Calvin and Hobbes Mafia(Both in the theme park)

Actually I concur with PBug, the no-quoting-the-mod rule is a necessary evil at best.

[MeMe]

You

might think it was lame in Princess Bride -- but I made a deliberate choice to word the Peasant PMs in exactly the same way so that they could be identified by each other AND the recruiting group.

You weren't even

in

that game, were you?

[Edit]I'm just gonna put in my original explanation posted at the end of Princess Bride as they sum up my feelings on the matter quite nicely...

My feelings on this are well-documented -- I think that it is the players' responsibility to use all information at hand to win...even discussing the content (without quoting) of PMs. The mod should consider how the PMs are worded to make sure this is/isn't a possibility. For example, in my no-frills mafia, two of the townie PMs were identical...but all the others different. If they had been discussed, it was possible that two townies would clear each other and distrust all other claims. That was part of the set-up.

In this game, it was quite deliberate on my part to give the peasants identical PMs for two reasons 1) So that if the ROUS Recruiter realized that the "some have been exposed to Rodent cooties all their lives" in his role referred to commoners, he could more easily target those who had been revealed as such and 2) that townies could identify and "clear" each other...which (to paraphrase mathcam) could possibly screw them later if one were recruited.

Basically...it was part of the game plan that the PMs might be discussed, and, in my opinion, it should

always

be considered a possibility by the mod.

[/Edit]

[PolarBoy]

No, and actually mentioning it was rather unfair, as I never read more than the first day. My apologies.

[MeMe]

Thanks. Sorry to get snippy.

[Dasquian]

If you do decide to do that, at least try and make sure to write all townie PM's differently. or the game might quickly turn into an

"if you're really a townie, what is the third word in your role PM?"

.

The best solution I've found is to just quote the Townie PM in all its glory at the start of the thread, so any mod-quoting (that I agree shouldn't happen in any case) can't influence the game. Of course, that tips your hand a bit that there are Townies in your game, but then of course, you could just quote the Townie PM at the start of each game, whether anyone gets it or not

[Norinel]

The only game where all-out modquoting was legal was in Cellular, which is a good warning read. I hate this sort of thing; the silliest thing I've done to prevent it was the alignments in the SH role pms. (Fortunately for the town, nobody tried to discuss them)

As far as Princess Bride, I understand it was a balance decision, and I assumed in-game that there was a counterbalance. (Unfortunately for me, I chose the wrong one.)

[PolarBoy]

Not entirely true Norinel; in Black and White(mini 76), it was noticed by the players that the rules said:

If a rule is not explcitly stated by the mod, it is not a rule.

It was also noticed that no rule mentioned the discussion of Role PMs. This was generally thought to be a gross oversight on the moderator's part. Much hilarity ensued.

Dasquian, that's the idea behind

Scrubbed Mafia

, a project I'm working on. It's a whole book of standards for things like Role PMs and rules concerning night actions charted down to minute details. This means that anyone could make a perfectly legitimate looking role claim. It also means that you can predict with clinical accuracy what will happen on a night, given that you know the roles and choices. Something like that anyway. I haven't really got more than the basic idea worked out. It also has occured to me that it would be a lot of overhead unless the book was used for several games.

[mathcam]

Players can also feel free to quote their PM to their heart's desire in More Mountainouser Mafia.

Cam

[Mgm]

Maybe you should Wiki part of that book first, Polar Boy. See how much interest there is.

[Talitha]

It

would

be useful to have a set of standardized guidelines for how to implement the rules of the game. A mod's handbook, if you like. Mods wouldn't be bound by them, but if they wanted to deviate then they'd state so at the start of the game, and all players would know where they stood.

Eg. It could address what exactly is considered to be mod quoting.
Also, things like what you do with night actions such as a role blocker blocking a killer who targeted the same role blocker.

I can imagine there'd be a LOT of differing opinions out there though... You'd probably have to get a committee together and thrash it out, if you wanted the conventions to be adopted into general use.

[PolarBoy]

Actually part of the purpose of the book is to eliminate rules concerning mod-quoting. If scum can fabricate an unquestionably authentic role claim of any and every role available in the game then quoting provides no advantage; smart players wouldn't bother requiring it.

The second thing though--what happens in unusual circumstances--would be hashed out in full.

Heh, I guess I made it sound like there was a partial draft of

Scrubbed Mafia

in existence. It's only a concept right now.

[Malaprop]

I think the interesting thing about this mod-kill is that the mod also ended the day. I can see potential for meta-game ploys there... sacrifice a team member to get night actions.

[Talitha]

It could be abused if you don't end the day too. A player about to be lynched could quote their role PM, get mod-killed and avoid having a night.

[Yaw]

Right, that would give the town a second chance to lynch on the day of a mod-kill.

I don't see Malaprop's concern happening often, though. Generally, the only people who would really want to make it to night would be the scum, and are they really going to quote their own PM to get there faster if they're under the gun? Even if they do, it only helps the town by getting rid of scum. Besides, you can accomplish the same thing without mod-quoting just by claiming to be scum.