Newbie 888 - Game Over!

[pablito]

Vote Count

Lastsurvivor (2): kunkstar7, Kyiv
Kyiv (2): PatriotsDynasty09, MichelSableheart
kunkstar7 (1): Lastsurvivor
RandomMaster (1): Medix

Not Voting (3): RandomMaster, Magic Trainer, walrus helmet

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

[Kyiv]

That doesn't actually answer my question. It explains why you posted, but it doesn't answer why you chose the experience levels of players as the topic of conversation.

It seems a recurring question to help players get to know each other, in any Mafia game, especially those with newer players. It was less of a game-related question and more of a personal question. I could have chosen any question. I simply chose that one.

How's walrus helmet doing?

[Magic Trainer]

Oh jeez, I'm already growing parnoid, I feel like voting Lastsurvivor because he's talking the most but then again a mafia wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves... right?

Vote: Kyiv

Because she's the person posting above me.

[RandomMaster]

Oh jeez, I'm already growing parnoid

Why are you feeling already paranoid? This is your first post of the day. Is it simply because of the fact that anyone might be scum, or is it that you actually might be scum and the pressure that the town might find you is causing the paranoia? This is probably a very weak argument, but at this point, it may be good enough for a Day 1 vote for me, and it's better than a vote by pure randomness. (This coming from the guy called RandomMaster)

Vote: Magic Trainer

For the reason posted above, and for the fact that he wrote paranoid wrong, in a game where it is everywhere.

[Magic Trainer]

Oh jeez, I'm already growing parnoid

Why are you feeling already paranoid? This is your first post of the day. Is it simply because of the fact that anyone might be scum, or is it that you actually might be scum and the pressure that the town might find you is causing the paranoia? This is probably a very weak argument, but at this point, it may be good enough for a Day 1 vote for me, and it's better than a vote by pure randomness. (This coming from the guy called RandomMaster)

Vote: Magic Trainer

For the reason posted above, and for the fact that he wrote paranoid wrong, in a game where it is everywhere.

Yes, the fact that anyone could be scum is what's making me paranoid. I feel like you're just jumping on me for saying something but I guess I can understand how you feel. I don't have much more to say unless you want to continue this conversation?

[RandomMaster]

Yes, I feel like I may have jumped, but the vote actually has 2 reasons behind it.

1. I wanted to do a vote that had some hints of logic behind it, may they be weak. Even though many consider this as the RVS, I feel like much can be learned in these firsts couple of days, and randomly voting someone off isn't going to help the town. A vote with some bits of reasonning behind it is better than picking someone at random and voting for said person.

2. I feel like there may be a hint of bandwagonning towards Kyiv, and you seemed to have jumped on it. I'm wondering that is the only reason why you voted her is that she posted over you, or is there another reason?

[Magic Trainer]

Yes, I feel like I may have jumped, but the vote actually has 2 reasons behind it.

1. I wanted to do a vote that had some hints of logic behind it, may they be weak. Even though many consider this as the RVS, I feel like much can be learned in these firsts couple of days, and randomly voting someone off isn't going to help the town. A vote with some bits of reasonning behind it is better than picking someone at random and voting for said person.

2. I feel like there may be a hint of bandwagonning towards Kyiv, and you seemed to have jumped on it. I'm wondering that is the only reason why you voted her is that she posted over you, or is there another reason?

As I said, I understand why you voted for me. Saying this is most likely goign to make me look scummy but I just want to point this out, if I was scum I wouldn't say I was paranoid because of pressure, or at least not when no one at the time was accusing me.

1. Got it, but wouldn't random voting lead to people defending themselves eachother which would not only have a chance to reveal people's allegiances but the night kill itself would help give some clues the next morning as to who the scum is? Both methods seem fine, I would rather have it everyone uses logic.

2. My reason is exactly as I said, when I saw this game start I skimmed the thread and then I voted. Then I looked over the thread once again, I didn't look at the vote tally until after I voted. I'd change my vote but at the time I have no reason to. (I guess I should look back again to make a more educated vote.)

[Medix]

Sure, but even then you need to have some way to make the decission. Did you throw dice? Look at the playerlist to see which name you found interesting? Choose the player whose name came second to last alphabetically?

I looked at the playerlist, and I see RandomMaster didn't counter my vote, that makes me more suspicious.

[RandomMaster]

Yes, I feel like I may have jumped, but the vote actually has 2 reasons behind it.

1. I wanted to do a vote that had some hints of logic behind it, may they be weak. Even though many consider this as the RVS, I feel like much can be learned in these firsts couple of days, and randomly voting someone off isn't going to help the town. A vote with some bits of reasonning behind it is better than picking someone at random and voting for said person.

2. I feel like there may be a hint of bandwagonning towards Kyiv, and you seemed to have jumped on it. I'm wondering that is the only reason why you voted her is that she posted over you, or is there another reason?

As I said, I understand why you voted for me. Saying this is most likely goign to make me look scummy but I just want to point this out, if I was scum I wouldn't say I was paranoid because of pressure, or at least not when no one at the time was accusing me.

1. Got it, but wouldn't random voting lead to people defending themselves eachother which would not only have a chance to reveal people's allegiances but the night kill itself would help give some clues the next morning as to who the scum is? Both methods seem fine, I would rather have it everyone uses logic.

2. My reason is exactly as I said, when I saw this game start I skimmed the thread and then I voted. Then I looked over the thread once again, I didn't look at the vote tally until after I voted. I'd change my vote but at the time I have no reason to. (I guess I should look back again to make a more educated vote.)

Some people have their different styles of play. Some people will prefer random votes, others, including myself, prefer logical votes during this early stage. Seeing that you bring out good points in your counter-arguments and I am not seeing any slips or signs of panic by me questionning you, I'm gonna :

Unvote: Magic Trainer

Still, this recent bandwagon of Kyiv this early bothers me a bit.

[Medix]

As I said, I understand why you voted for me. Saying this is most likely goign to make me look scummy but I just want to point this out, if I was scum I wouldn't say I was paranoid because of pressure, or at least not when no one at the time was accusing me.

If you were a scum, you could be paranoid, because you saw your friend looks suspicious.

[RandomMaster]

Sure, but even then you need to have some way to make the decission. Did you throw dice? Look at the playerlist to see which name you found interesting? Choose the player whose name came second to last alphabetically?

I looked at the playerlist, and I see RandomMaster didn't counter my vote, that makes me more suspicious.

I was expecting a vote randomly tossed my way this early in the game, considering I have random in my name. I feel like I have nothing to hide, what do you wanna ask?

Michel: I'm new to the site, so I might be missing the obvious "Edit" button, but can you tell me how to edit, to avoid double posting?

[Magic Trainer]

As I said, I understand why you voted for me. Saying this is most likely goign to make me look scummy but I just want to point this out, if I was scum I wouldn't say I was paranoid because of pressure, or at least not when no one at the time was accusing me.

If you were a scum, you could be paranoid, because you saw your friend looks suspicious.

Could you please be more specific as to who my friend is, right now I don't really see anyone being accused other than myself.

@Random, one thing I would like to ask you.

1. Why didn't you mention my vote for Kyiv in your first accusation? Were you just trying to build up on your theory after I posted or were you just looking for things to use in order to lynche me?

[RandomMaster]

The reason why I didn't mention it is that I wanted to add some more pressure to see if you would snap and to see how you would play in those circumstances. I did notice the vote, but I wanted to slowly add it by questionning and accussing, seeing how you would react. Since you answered with good counter arguments and logic, instead of resorting to emotions and pleading, I unvoted. If you want to see it that way, yes, you could see as to building up on my theory. If I was completely geared towards lynching you, why would I have unvoted?

[RandomMaster]

Michel, nevermind. I just thought of the reason why there wouldn't be an edit button, which would be from scum to alter their messages to cover up their slips.

[Lastsurvivor]

Oh jeez, I'm already growing parnoid, I feel like voting Lastsurvivor because he's talking the most but then again a mafia wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves... right?

Vote: Kyiv

Because she's the person posting above me.

Why would I deserve a vote if I was talking? o.O

I am going to

Unvote.

[kunkstar7]

I'm new to the site, so I might be missing the obvious "Edit" button, but can you tell me how to edit, to avoid double posting?

You are correct, under most circumstances there is no edit button for posts.

At this point in the game RV's are there to get people to talk or try to get scum to slip up. It can actually greatly help the town because you never know if Kyiv or whoever gets voted gets really defensive over a random vote. To me that's a scum slip and can help the town win.

This is a good statement, but I think that unless you provide some small reason, regardless if its random, then the vote is more likely to cause a defensive reaction. By simply saying I voted for "so and so" because it came up on a dice roll, they aren't as likely to react. For example my vote on Lastsurvivor. it sparked a reaction did it not? Had I posted "I vote Lastsurvivor becuase random.org said so", it would not have been as likely to receive a reaction.

I feel like much can be learned in these firsts couple of days, and randomly voting someone off isn't going to help the town. A vote with some bits of reasonning behind it is better than picking someone at random and voting for said person.

Someones got to start the game. You pick a random person and create a reason to fit. What would you do if you had to make a vote to start the game?

My reason is exactly as I said, when I saw this game start I skimmed the thread and then I voted. Then I looked over the thread once again, I didn't look at the vote tally until after I voted. I'd change my vote but at the time I have no reason to. (I guess I should look back again to make a more educated vote.)

What this is showing to me is you aren't paying attention to the thread properly and seems like you don't care who gets lynched, as long as it someone. What if your vote had been the lynch vote on an early RVS bandwagon? Why do you say you would change your vote? I'm under the assumption it was simply a random vote. Yet you are quick to say you would change it. If you feel that the vote was unwarranted to begin with, why make the vote to start with?

[Magic Trainer]

What this is showing to me is you aren't paying attention to the thread properly and seems like you don't care who gets lynched, as long as it someone. What if your vote had been the lynch vote on an early RVS bandwagon? Why do you say you would change your vote? I'm under the assumption it was simply a random vote. Yet you are quick to say you would change it. If you feel that the vote was unwarranted to begin with, why make the vote to start with?

As I said before, I skimmed through the thread then voted becaus I was excited the game had begun. You're right, my vote was just a simple vote, and while I do want to make a better educated vote it's harder to do in this phase because at the time we have no solid evidence.

The reason I said I wanted to change it was I would have felt it would have been better to question/vote for a player who was not being questioned at the time. Such as Walrus right now, I feel like he's just lurking so I would prefer to change my vote to him but I believe my vote for the time being is good enough unless something turns up that can change my mind. I made a vote because I wanted to be part of the discussion and voice my opinion, and possibly contribute to lynching a scum, but that's why everyone votes isn't it?

@Random

I was curious at to if you were scum there could have been a possibility that you were the scum and you just wanted to take your accusation then slap on my vote to make me look guilty. Then you might have thought as you said my defense was good and others would not agree with you so you decided to change your vote and try to lynche someone else.

Right now I believe Random has a chance to be good, the scum however I don't a clue on hower I do suspect Walrus has a chance of being scum. I want to wait and see his defense before/if I change my vote.

[walrus helmet]

My apologies for no responses, it was New Years and I have been busy. Happy 2010 everyone.

I'm glad to see actual discussion taking place, rather than just 'random' voting.

I tend to agree with RandomMaster on one point - I don't like the early bandwagon. It serves no benefit to put him anywhere close to being lynched without actual discussion. In addition Magic Trainer is throwing suspicion around yet keeps his random vote on Kyiv.

FOS: Magic Trainer

Question for Lastsurvivor: In the initial posts of the actual game, Kunkstar7 voted for you and said it was an OMGUS vote. You misinterpreted that to mean he was calling your vote an OMGUS vote.

Did you know what OMGUS meant? (sorry if this sounds accusatory, honestly asking here.) Do you know now? Why did you think your vote could be interpreted as OMGUS?

@MichelSableheart: How would knowing the experience level of the players in the game possibly be for finding NK targets when we are playing in a newbie game where we are pre-labeled by our levels of experience?

[pablito]

Here's a reminder of rules on first page:

...

• Do not edit/delete any previous submitted posts.
  Do not use invisible text or color=black.
  
• Do not quote any PMs from me or your role PM. Also, please do not pretend to quote any PMs either.
  
• The game is not to be discussed outside of this thread unless your role specifically states that you may do so. This rule lasts for the entirety of the game - whether or not you are dead or alive in the game...

For reference on what mafiascum does regarding editing, this may help http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=EBWOP

[MichelSableheart]

@Michel:
Do you agree that many games start out with a RVS (Random Voting Stage)?

At this point in the game RV's are there to get people to talk or try to get scum to slip up. It can actually greatly help the town because you never know if Kyiv or whoever gets voted gets really defensive over a random vote. To me that's a scum slip and can help the town win.

Allthough it is called the Random Voting Stage, votes should not actually be random, and definately not announced random. The problem with a vote that is actually randomly generated and of which everybody knows it is actually randomly generated, is that everybody knows there was no intent behind the vote. Because of that the vote can't really be discussed. As a result, a vote that is actually random does not help with getting discussion started.

On the other hand, if you vote arbitrary ("I'm voting you because you are a patriots fan"), then at least there was a concious decission to vote for player A instead of someone else. As a result, in an arbitrary vote there is a bit of information present that can be discussed. See, for example, the reaction to Magic Trainer's vote of Kyiv. "You claim that you only voted because he posted above you, but I believe you actually wanted to bandwagon."

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RandomMasters question about editing has been answered completely already.

--------------------------

Someones got to start the game. You pick a random person and create a reason to fit. What would you do if you had to make a vote to start the game?

I personally tend to look for small tells in confirmation, or start questioning some players on their meta.

---------------------------
I don't like Magic Trainer's accusation of Walrus for lurking. There is a big difference between lurking and inactivity. Inactivity is simply not being there, which was likely the case for Walrus, given the date this game started. Lurking on the other hand, is being present, but intentionally avoiding to post content in order to avoid drawing attention to yourself. I believe that the last post by Walrus shows that is not the case for him currently.

----------------------------

@MichelSableheart: How would knowing the experience level of the players in the game possibly be for finding NK targets when we are playing in a newbie game where we are pre-labeled by our levels of experience?

The SE and IC slots are based on experience on mafiascum. However, there is a big difference between a player who plays his first game of mafia ever, and someone who has a lot of experience on other sites and face to face but is only now coming to mafiascum. The latter player is far more likely to use the information from the early days to identify the scum later on, and is therefore a more important nightkill target.

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Lastsurvivor, why the unvote?

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Kyiv being at L-2 (Lynch minus 2, 2 votes away from lynch) is a bit much. Similary, I think a bit of pressure on medix is warranted. He has not yet produced any original content.

Unvote: Kyiv

Vote: Medix

[Medix]

Similary, I think a bit of pressure on medix is warranted. He has not yet produced any original content.

Do you accuse me as a scum because I'm not throwing arguments yet? It's a very weak reason to accuse someone.

[Lastsurvivor]

Question for Lastsurvivor: In the initial posts of the actual game, Kunkstar7 voted for you and said it was an OMGUS vote. You misinterpreted that to mean he was calling your vote an OMGUS vote.

Did you know what OMGUS meant? (sorry if this sounds accusatory, honestly asking here.) Do you know now? Why did you think your vote could be interpreted as OMGUS?

I thought it being late at night was a good enough explanation but if you really need me to explain...

I took OMGUS literally (aka saying that I only voted him because I don't like him) since that's sort of an alternate definition on EM. It was lateish, I was sleepy, excuses excuses blahblahblah. I just don't get why it's that big of a deal.

[Lastsurvivor]

@Michel: I felt that my vote on Kunk was now unneeded, since we're kind of over it as a town now.

[Kyiv]

Do you accuse me as a scum because I'm not throwing arguments yet? It's a very weak reason to accuse someone.

Day 1 accusations are going to be weak. However, I disagree that Medix hasn't produced much: He did make his vote and back it up. However, I think his accusations are baseless, which is worse than just weak. For instance:

I looked at the playerlist, and I see RandomMaster didn't counter my vote, that makes me more suspicious.

Because someone didn't vote back at you, or because someone completely ignored your RANDOM vote, you assume that they are attempting to avoid you? I can't agree with that.

If you were a scum, you could be paranoid, because you saw your friend looks suspicious.

Another baseless accusation. This is not something you can either prove or disprove, it's just WIFOM, which is something dangerous especially in Day 1.

Similary, I think a bit of pressure on medix is warranted. He has not yet produced any original content.

I agree. I think Medix should flesh out his thoughts:

Unvote Vote: Medix

[walrus helmet]

Question for Lastsurvivor: In the initial posts of the actual game, Kunkstar7 voted for you and said it was an OMGUS vote. You misinterpreted that to mean he was calling your vote an OMGUS vote.

Did you know what OMGUS meant? (sorry if this sounds accusatory, honestly asking here.) Do you know now? Why did you think your vote could be interpreted as OMGUS?

I thought it being late at night was a good enough explanation but if you really need me to explain...

I took OMGUS literally (aka saying that I only voted him because I don't like him) since that's sort of an alternate definition on EM. It was lateish, I was sleepy, excuses excuses blahblahblah. I just don't get why it's that big of a deal.

The reason for my question was that being so defensive over literally nothing makes it seem like you have something to hide.