Open 188 - Tweed Mafia - Over!

[Zachrulez]

@zach- what question are you talking about?

Post 73.

[Scott Brosius]

Sorry, still here will catch up.

[farside22]

A lot of what I see going on seems to be meta talk. What disturbs me is that MrSuave brings up Nik's town play vs scum play. How as town nik will make some vote to him and what do I see but here

MrSuave, I'm starting to think you're scummy simply because of your overconfidence in the early game. Believe it or not, overconfidence is a scumtell. It's how I always catch KittyMo as scum, hehe.
Anyway,

Unvote. Vote: MrSuave.

You obviously seem to want my vote anyway.

I don't like this at all it means now he's voting him because of this meta and it just rubs as scum trying to prove then meta now.

vote: Nikanor

[MrSuave]

I cleared that ability thing up as well as I could. it was hard to tell with the bad descriptions of my skills.

Yes, but do you see what I mean when I say it was scummy?

a good example of when you don't care if you win or not, is in 2v2 brawl (we have FF off) and you don't care if you hit me. in fact, sometimes you TRY to hit me. how does that help your win condition?

Only when we're pretty much guaranteed a victory anyway.
Anyway, to steer this discussion back on-topic, the whole point of this argument was that you say I try to get you killed in every game where I'm town, while I deny that by saying you deserved to be lynched in those games. I'm refuting your point by providing evidence for why you did indeed deserve to be lynched there.
To provide more support for my argument with Game B where we were both town, I all but ignored you on day one, with only one question and one accusation (of Suave being chainsaw defended by another player, no more) shot your way. You're now accusing me of ignoring you on day one, three pages into the game, and claiming it doesn't fit my town meta. That does not fit the facts at all, and is quite frankly pretty scummy.

and how was I trying to appease the town? I thought it was pretty obv sarcasm.

It wasn't obvious. And saying it was sarcasm doesn't let you off the hook, either, to be clear.

that is false. our victory is not always secure. so you can't even say that.

and also, say what you want, that "I'm sorry was very obvious." I know you have enough common sense to know when someone is sarcastic, especially since you yourself use sarcasm

[Nikanor]

Nik: do you have any examples of MrSuave being overconfident as scum?

The only game I've played with him in which he flipped scum is his first game; everyone played the newbcard on him from the beginning and he coasted through the entire game without doing anything.

and also, say what you want, that "I'm sorry was very obvious." I know you have enough common sense to know when someone is sarcastic, especially since you yourself use sarcasm

When I use sarcasm, I at least have the common sense to put an emote at the beginning/end to let others know I'm being sarcastic.

Also, I appreciate that you have nothing to say about my meta now that I've proved you wrong, scum.

[MrSuave]

that's not why I'm not saying anything. it's because I've already said what I have, if I say anything else I would be repeating myself. if you must know, game A, you may have been "justified" to tunnel me because I was scum, but I don't think I was THAT scummy in that game. I mean, I did win after all =p. game B, you were just as scummy as I was, and in lylo, when I was obv not one of the last scum, you STILL vote me, and screw us over. *shakes head* >=(

[Nikanor]

game B, you were just as scummy as I was, and in lylo, when I was obv not one of the last scum, you STILL vote me, and screw us over. *shakes head* >=(

I wouldn't say you were obvtown, or even slightly town. But that's neither here nor there. The point I'm trying to prove with this is that you're trying to make it out to seem like I tunnel on you day one straight off the bat in every game where I'm town, when in fact that is not the case at all. Do you still want to press the case that I tunnel on you every time, even with the evidence I've brought to the table?

[XScorpion]

is there a point to this

No not really. I just don't think anyone is scummy enough to warrant my vote yet.

[yabbaguy]

Experimenting with a notetaking system... I think it's working beautifully already. Click "@" to go to the post in question. Here's what came out as scummy, questionable, or notable.

@Coug-37: Voting a random vote for seriousness is opportunistic inherently.

@Coug-61: This is poor reasoning for a vote as well. Why scummy?

@Farside-66: This debate really hadn't blossomed at this point, not sure why we're going after it now.

Nika is bang on at 74 when he cites overconfidence at the outset as a scumtell. Scum have all the answers, so this puzzle is incredibly simple for them already.

XScorp has incredibly poor judgment to be going on anti-town sprees such as what he did around this time. This serves absolutely no purpose, as almost anybody who hops on your wagon after an anti-town spree can be claimed to have a reason. It really doesn't weed out opportunistic scum, and in this case, you don't even have a reason at all (107). So now I think he's suspicious for being anti-town, but I feel cheated. Scorpion, you need to stop.

@Lowell-87: Why are we trying to instigate bandwagons so early on?

Zach-89 is questionable opportunism, especially considering ambiguity (genuine) was present on Lowell's end.

@Farside-102: You've lost me on the reasoning for the vote. It seems like something about hypocrisy, but I'm not entirely sure.

Coug's weird voting rationale and lines of questioning that just don't feel helpful towards scumhunting have my attention initially.

Vote: StrangerCoug

[yabbaguy]

@DTMaster

: Votecount?

In the making - DTM

[farside22]

Just to clarify mrsauve points out that as town nik goes after him even when the reasoning isn't sound.
After this point is made and mrsauve states that he's ignoring him Nik now goes after mrsauve.
If someone says I think your scum because this isn't your nomal town meta and changes it to fit the meta it looks scummy to change after the fact.

[Nikanor]

Just to clarify mrsauve points out that as town nik goes after him even when the reasoning isn't sound.

Read this game and tell me that I'm acting in that game how MrSuave is trying to make me out to act. It is debatable whether I actually tunnel on him later on in the game, but I hardly mention him in the early stages of that game. He is trying to make it look as if I go straight for him and don't look back as town, which simply is not true.

[farside22]

Just to clarify mrsauve points out that as town nik goes after him even when the reasoning isn't sound.

Read this game and tell me that I'm acting in that game how MrSuave is trying to make me out to act. It is debatable whether I actually tunnel on him later on in the game, but I hardly mention him in the early stages of that game. He is trying to make it look as if I go straight for him and don't look back as town, which simply is not true.

So the meta he is talking about has not truth to it? Is somewhat true or what?
I want links from both of you on this matter.

[Nikanor]

So the meta he is talking about has not truth to it? Is somewhat true or what?

*facepalm* That's what I've been saying this whole bloody time! Have you not been reading a single one of my posts?

Game A, MrSuave is scum, I'm town.
Game B, MrSuave is town, I'm town.
Game C, MrSuave is town, I'm scum.

[yabbaguy]

This feels like meta discussion all over again... even there, I'm not sold on the "swapping to town meta" argument. Yeah, it's Nik trying to "appear" town, but ultimately, I think everyone wants to do that, alignments aside. Nothing notably scummy about it.

[StrangerCoug]

@Coug-37: Voting a random vote for seriousness is opportunistic inherently.

So what's the problem?

@Coug-61: This is poor reasoning for a vote as well. Why scummy?

KittyMo is as capable of thought as the other 11 of us. I don't know if she can reasonably ask you for an alternative method of discussion as if you can pull it out of a hat, and by not thinking of something else herself, she's stalling discussion.

[XScorpion]

Unvote
Vote: KittyMo

I'll go out of character and explain why (SHOCKING!)

I had no school today, so I was waiting around all day for your game to start.

Well, Zach, I was planning on providing another method of discussion, but I had to leave for dance class soon, and didn't have time to come up with one.

You were waiting around all day...but didn't have enough time? What's up with that?

"Random Questioning Stage" would seem less scummy to me if it was on post 1, before people had placed votes on her for not supporting RVS.

Obviously, no one had random voted, I would have chosen to vote for a different reason.

Surely you didn't actually believe that everyone was going to agree and cancel out the RVS?

Quick question for both. How is it what she did, did not promote discussion?

The only reason it promoted discussion is because people saw her as suspicious for trying to discourage one of the most common ways to begin discussion.

Hmmm. Hard question to answer, since only about half of us are here, but I’d choose Lowell, because I don’t like votes without reasoning on page 1 unless they’re early bandwagoning.

Does this mean my vote for you had reasoning? Also, do you think Lowell's vote is scummier than MrSuave's absence?

...which is why I didn't ask things like "What's your favorite power role: cop, doctor, or vig?"...

I am suspicious about someone being the first in the thread to mention power roles, even in this context.

You're asking me to figure out what you should do next for you? o.O

Would you like to explain why you don't want to give any suggestions of what is best for town?

Since I apparently fail so much, what better plan would you like to grace us with?

For a better plan to exist, you would have to actually give one to compare it to. Did you simply start the RQS just to generate discussion, and let the rest of town decide what to do with the results?



P.S. Today is the first day I actually read the whole thread. Does anyone want to explain why my insanely anti-town behaviour hasn't warranted a single vote? At most I got a few slaps on the wrists from Yabba and Locke, but really...I mean, if I was anyone else in this game, I would probably be voting myself already out of policy (oh wait, I already did. Lol.) Just pointing out that it seems strange for there to be so much discussion about certain players, yet if I was scum (and wasn't acting like a jackass with my anti-townness) I would breeze through day 1 almost completely unnoticed.

[MrSuave]

well, I don't want to get 2 days in and be like, "OH CRAP NIK IS SCUM!" I want to get this cleared up asap. hence, guilty untill prooven innocent. you will always be scum to me untill I cannot read you. but so far, my recent game wth you where I read you like a book, I'm going to go with the fact I can read you.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Should be well now.

Oh... noted then -DTM

well, I don't want to get 2 days in and be like, "OH CRAP NIK IS SCUM!" I want to get this cleared up asap. hence, guilty untill prooven innocent. you will always be scum to me untill I cannot read you. but so far, my recent game wth you where I read you like a book, I'm going to go with the fact I can read you.

You should view Nikanor as suspicious as you should the other 10 of us you're playing with, but it's not a good strategy to call someone scummy for you being able to read him or her.

[yabbaguy]

@Coug-115: Glad to hear you're feeling better.

Problem on the first one is that by being opportunistic, it kinda feels like edgy scum ready to pounce on anything plausible. That's kind of the vibe I've been getting, but maybe that's how you got pegged as some kinda robot by iamausername (right?), by just taking every scumtell out of context. Can't tell.

Stalling discussion, meh, I think part of it is that she's trying a hypocrisy check, IMO.

@XScr-116: Because we're smarter than that. We know that when somebody's being blatantly anti-town early, you don't wagon them, you ask them to stop.

Speaking of... I'd say a lot of your points on Kitty are more anti-town points, not scummy points.

[farside22]

well, I don't want to get 2 days in and be like, "OH CRAP NIK IS SCUM!" I want to get this cleared up asap. hence, guilty untill prooven innocent. you will always be scum to me untill I cannot read you. but so far, my recent game wth you where I read you like a book, I'm going to go with the fact I can read you.

Why are you saying that is normal meta is X when that is not the case then?

[StrangerCoug]

Problem on the first one is that by being opportunistic, it kinda feels like edgy scum ready to pounce on anything plausible. That's kind of the vibe I've been getting, but maybe that's how you got pegged as some kinda robot by iamausername (right?), by just taking every scumtell out of context. Can't tell.

Not a bad description of how I got my title, no.

[XScorpion]

I'd say a lot of your points on Kitty are more anti-town points, not scummy points.

Do you believe that the people who act most anti-town are less/equally likely to be scum than others?

[DTMaster]

Ok sorry, I had finals. Now time for the administration stuff:

Mod Ruling: Because of how close the poll was

you no longer have to unvote in between votes

. You can do it, as it is optional (and I would like it very much) but you do not have to unvote in between votes. You still need to unvote to remove your vote in play. The rules will be updated by then.

V/LA Status;
KittyMo's status has been noted. (Gogo power chargers!)

Strangercoug's status has been noted. (He has cooties)

The cooties has him, aka He's getting bettter.

Vote Count:

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

XScorpion (0)
Lowell (1) - Scott Brosius
StrangerCoug (1) - KittyMo
MrSuave (1) Nikanor
Nikanor (2) - MrSuave, farside22
Locke Lamora(0)
yabbaguy (0) -
Scott Brosius (0)
KittyMo (3) - Zachrulez, XScorpion, StrangerCoug
Zachrulez (2) - jasonT1981, Lowell
farside22 (0)
jasonT1981 (0)

Not Voting (2)
Locke Lamora, yabbaguy

Deadline: December 21 2009. I forgot to put this in the previous vote counts :<.

[yabbaguy]

Do you believe that the people who act most anti-town are less/equally likely to be scum than others?

Not the point here, of course anti-town can easily become scummy. It's just that anti-town alone does not make a scum case. I'd like to know where some of your points actually constitute *scummy* behavior.

---

Unvote

Gonna opt to lay back for a bit and watch stuff unfold. Coug's still shaky, but I'm gonna go the path of inhibiting my vote until it's needed. I'm nowhere near wanting to lynch yet.