890: Cults of Darkness and Shadow - Game over!

[Seacore]

I disagree with the idea that a no lynch is ever a good idea. In fact, it's probably a good idea that a couple of people have thrown in some incants, so that no lynching is definitely off the table.

But I'm passionately against the idea of a typical Random Voting Stage since it introduces too many incants too soon. Yes, you can just move them to less at-risk players, but that involves coordination and it's too open to "Oh my god, I'm so sorry, I was unexpectedly away and then you burst into fire"

I'm quite happy for SC to have voted for me. I think it's an incorrect decision, but his vote is based on his opinion, I'm definitely not trying to discourage people for voting for people they think are scum.
I'm against people going "I'll just vote this person for now and see what happens"
I'm also against people just voting without saying anything else, I don't care what your secret plan is Fara, it still looks scummy. Anybody, scum or town, will ask you the same question "why did you vote for me" it reveals nothing, but makes us harder to hold you to account.

[Faraday]

I do not think that was a good move in the slightest, and a No Lynch may not occur since you have done so

Huh? I assumed you were reffering to the day, doesn't matter anyway, since you clarified I guess.

[Seacore]

[Yeh and I'd have liked to have seen that the first time.

All of the points I answered in that post had been brought up prior to his accusation.
All except the "over analysis" one, which is just ridiculous.

[Chaco]

Huh? I assumed you were reffering to the day, doesn't matter anyway, since you clarified I guess.

Well, I consider a NL a fallback. The option of that fallback is destroyed when someone immediately votes.

It's just speculation, not that I want one.

[Seacore]

Also, Fara, I would like to hear, do you agree/disagree with my thoughts on

Random bandwagons being bad
Power roles being evident of being "pro town" and thus less trustworthy
Pro town tells being significantly less helpful compared to scum tells in this game as opposed to normal games.

In fact, I would like to hear from other people on these points as well.

[Faraday]

I'm also against people just voting without saying anything else, I don't care what your secret plan is Fara, it still looks scummy. Anybody, scum or town, will ask you the same question "why did you vote for me" it reveals nothing, but makes us harder to hold you to account.

Tells can be given off in response to pressure. When someone votes for someone without a reason the accused may wonder why, they may panic or may continue to act in a scummy way. The fact you believe all unexplained votes to be scummy is a tad naive, and there very very useful as far as I'm concerned. I'm not however interested in arguing mafia theory, but suffice to say I'll use my vote as I feel is best.

[Faraday]

Also, Fara, I would like to hear, do you agree/disagree with my thoughts on

Random bandwagons being bad
Power roles being evident of being "pro town" and thus less trustworthy
Pro town tells being significantly less helpful compared to scum tells in this game as opposed to normal games.

In fact, I would like to hear from other people on these points as well.

In general? No. here? probably but there's only been 1 random vote to my knowledge so far, so that's a moot point.
Power roles aren't an indication of being pro-town neccessarily. Obviously I won't take a claim at face value anyway.
Disagree with this, I don't think they'll be 'significantly' less helpful, maybe slightly less but I'll probably still trust town reads.

[Snow_Bunny]

@Faraday: To tell you the truth, I thought your vote was random, and thus I wasn't going to say anything about it (well, other than the fact that you

voted

).

Chaco and Seacore buddying is noted. The idea of 2 lynches per day sounds good, as long as the lynchees are scummy enough to warrant it. Nothing like "ok, we found one scum, let's put there player C just because I have a bad vibe". No, nothing like that, please.

No lynching is bad. Period. However, RV in this game is even worse. If you're going to place your incantation in play, make it worthy.

[Seacore]

Hehe, I was about to comment on the buddying too, I'm happy for you to note it, I know that it can look suspicious sometimes, but I enjoy finding someone who sees eye to eye with me.

You'll probably find I'll buddy a bit with you too Snow, since you seem to think along the same lines.

I agree with your multilynch concerns. Both (or all) lynchees must be scummy enough to warrant it. Or at the very least a political consensus between to vote camps. Definitely not "might as well have another one. That kind of voting might cloud information gained.

[mipe]

Gah, one night and already 3 pages of posts.. Will post more after work.

[Datadanne]

So Datadanne, are you just somebody who reads everything or was that link in your inbox? Tempted to incant you right now...

I was quickly looking through the roles, And thought (Hey, Why does the mafia pm have a link?)

Also, Remember to not Incant/Vote so quickly, As there is no unvoting

[Datadanne]

You may not "UnIncant", though you may

move your Incantation at any time

by simply incanting someone else until the Ritual is complete

Goddamn it.

[DisCode]

post 21
First of all, there's no danger in having too many votes out this day. The danger lies when this game day takes too long to finish. Because the fact is that with each 3 RL days, it will take one less vote to lynch. The more votes that get used for a lynch, the better. Because if we need very few votes, it's easier for scum to control the lynch. With more votes out, the chance of this happening is getting smaller with each vote out there.
Secondly, don't ever use 'scum', 'is' and 'vig' in one sentence, unless there is a negative involved. Because this isn't true at all. Even if a scum team wants to get rid of the other scumteam, that doesn't mean it will shoot at who they think are scum for certain. They still want to win from the time and that may include shooting claimed powerroles or strong players who are very unlikely to get lynched and/or might be dangerous against them.

Those were points I disagreed with. Now onto the scummy bit of the linked post, which is about the pro-town bit. It seems a way to give us the impression we can't clear each other and doubt everyone. Not liking that one bit.

post 23
When starttransmission is back, he should explain why Data's comment tempted him to vote for him and why he decided not to do so.

Incant Seacore

Post 47
Scummy post from Chaco. First of all, the 'soft push' against those players who have already incanted (For those who don't know what I mean, see: 'That can be considered scummy since' in the linked post)
Second reason is combined with post 49 as you were talking about the players who had voted today in post 47. Yet in post 49, you're denying you did talk about today.

Also, Fara, I would like to hear, do you agree/disagree with my thoughts on

Random bandwagons being bad

Disagreed

Power roles being evident of being "pro town" and thus less trustworthy

depends

Pro town tells being significantly less helpful compared to scum tells in this game as opposed to normal games.

disagreed

In fact, I would like to hear from other people on these points as well.

Bolded the answers.

Post 60, just found the link you were talking about. So now I'm curious, why did you point out the link of the Darkness PM, but not the one of the Shadow PM?

[mipe]

FoS:

Data

I know it's shallow, but why did you say:

/Nevah gonna give you up!
Nevah gonna let you down!

(Lol, Look in the "Link" of the darkness pm.

)

When the same link is in *both* scum PMs? Perhaps you are from cult from darkness, and wanted to make sure that your quicktopic link wasn't real, or maybe you were from cult of shadows and wanted to see if you could go into the 'opponents' quicktopic?

[Snow_Bunny]

@Dis: Are you suggesting we should speedlynch? I don't like that. It's true that with less votes is easy for scum to control the lynches, but we shouldn't hurry. Look, two weeks (around the same time given in a normal game) would leave us to 7 incantations to lynch, and that sounds good (majority).

[Faraday]

Nice strawman.

[DisCode]

@Dis: Are you suggesting we should speedlynch? I don't like that. It's true that with less votes is easy for scum to control the lynches, but we shouldn't hurry. Look, two weeks (around the same time given in a normal game) would leave us to 7 incantations to lynch, and that sounds good (majority).

No, I do not want a speedlynch. Thanks for twisting what I said.

[Snow_Bunny]

It's not strawman, it's the conclusion I'm getting for his post. That's why I'm rather asking than attacking.

[Faraday]

I don't believe you couldn't understand what he said the first time, phrasing it in the form of a question may look nicer and all but it's still a lot of word twisting to even arrive at that question.

[Magua]

Oh, hey everybody!

/confir....oh, it's started.

Anyways.

Quick readthrough: Want to incant Datadanne, but this is a knee jerk reaction from me; I simply don't find Data's playstyle helpful as a town. I can entirely believe that Data clicked on the first PM and posted without bothering to click on the second.

Multilynching seems more like a flaw to the town than a bonus; I think that engineering the votes involves a lot of coordination, which scum are going to be better at than town. The easiest time for town to do it without scum interference is d1 or d2, but those are also the days when we'll have the least information.

Being a Percy game, I am unsurprised to see that there's no real confirmation possible. =P

My first FoS is going to go onto mipe, for expressing another one of my pet peeves: "will post more after work" followed by a four-line post.

Mod: Will alignment be revealed upon death? Will skills?

[Seacore]

ecause if we need very few votes, it's easier for scum to control the lynch.

In my opinion this is a good thing. We tempt the scum to reveal themselves. If we need 10 to lynch and it's a town kill, then we've got all those people, plus anybody else that was suspicious to look at. If we only needed 6 and the same thing happens, then that makes it a lot easier.

I also don't understand why people are so suspicious about my pro-town comment. I'm talking about "pro-town tells" being things that actively make you think they are hunting for scum.
If you are including in "pro-town tells" the absence of "scum tells" then thats cool.
That's the only one I think can be trusted, because everything else could be scum hunting scum.

Also, I completely disagree with DisCode on his vig comment. It benefits one scum team to actively hunt the other to extinction, then to come after town, because they can't trust that the other scum team doesn't have the same plan. Thus their night kill would likely be used in a vig way. If they have a dreamwalker then they will really be scum hunting.

The problem with getting too high an incant population early is that it has a lack of accountability to hold people to in later days. An "accidental" multi-lynch could happen by somebody being "unfortunately away" from the game.

I think that if we do go with multi-lynch this is the way it should happen.

1)Good arguments are made in regards to the scumminess of two players
2)People tend to agree with points about both of them.
3)Wagons naturally form as players find one or the other more guilty in their opinion.
4)When the totals are close (but not necessarily exactly even) and we are at about 2 or 3 deadlines away, we float the idea of a multi lynch.
5)If most people are pro multi-lynch, we get them to even and we ask everybody to hold it there.
5)Anybody who votes to make the votes uneven is viewed suspiciously, whether the person who dies flips scum or not.
6)Anybody who votes within the last hour of the last deadline is viewed extremely suspicious, probably an auto lynch.

Thoughts?

[Chaco]

I think we should make it an absolute agreement, that is, with multilynching. Like the idea of incanting right now, it was to be absolute votes. 12 of 12. With the multilynch, I really believe we need absolute consensus.

[Seacore]

I'm okay with that. I'm okay with slightly less than consensus, but if others are happier with absolute, I'm good with that.

[startransmission]

Wow, things moving fast in this one.

Random bandwagons being bad

I don't agree

Power roles being evident of being "pro town" and thus less trustworthy

Yeah, town being in the minority I think raises the odds of power roles being assigned to town. But I don't see how being pro-town or likely town makes somebody less trustworthy.

Pro town tells being significantly less helpful compared to scum tells in this game as opposed to normal games.

I think it works both ways in this setup.

In fact, I would like to hear from other people on these points as well.

Answers in italics.

When starttransmission is back, he should explain why Data's comment tempted him to vote for him and why he decided not to do so.

Others have brought it up. He referenced the link in the the cult PMs, but was specific as to which cult PM. I didn't think that it was worth an incant as it was just as likely that his reference was random.

Well, here's where I'm at. I don't like the buddying between Chaco and Seacore. I don't like how Seacore laughed it off when Snow Bunny brought it up. I don't like Snow Bunny's misrepresentation of DisCodes post. I'm mostly on board with SC's incant on Seacore, and I really dislike the tone of Sea's response.

A lot I don't like. It seems that multi lynches are inevitable, and I don't think have a problem with that. The best strategy for scum is to be highly active and vocal. Become one of the most visible and hopefully influential players, and work in tandem to control the groups of incant candidates. So I'm suspicious of Seacore for coming into the game and attempting to set the tempo and discussing semantics. From his very first post he puts on a leadership hat. I disagree with his stance on pro-town tells being less valuable in this setup, and I'm concerned that he's compromising possible results from town power roles. We should be careful about any role claim where a power role is involved obviously, especially if it directly affects whether someone lives or dies. But the risk that a cult would do that is low, especially earlier in the game. The results of a lie would be damaging to the entire cult in question, and only advantageous in an endgame scenario.

Incant: Seacore

I know it's a little early for this, but after reading through this is my first impression,

Town- Me (of course), Faraday, SerialClergy, Discode, mipe.
Cult-Seacore, Chaco, SnowBunny, Datadanne, magua

Now, this is just the vibe I'm getting from the first few post. We still haven't heard from several people, and a simple second read could change that list for me very quickly. Just throwing out what my first impressions are. Food for thought.

@Magua... Data has posted only four times and with very little content. What do you see as his playstyle and why don't you like it?

[Percy]

"The solution is simple, my dear fellows", begins one of the council members. He is one of the young ones; Kiffard, passionate and hotheaded. "If we let the Ritual consume all of us, we know the taint will have passed from us, and we will bring liberation to the Order. What value is our lives but a fleeting ray of sunlight, here today, departed tomorrow? We have nothing to fear."

His words pass over you, and for a moment the idealism strikes you as worthy of attention. But just as you begin contemplating the virtues of suicide, the oldest member hauls himself up by his gnarled walking stick, creaking and groaning into a standing position.

"Have any of you ever seen this Ritual performed? I have. A long, long time ago. During the reign of Mordana the Tyrant, I was but an attendant; suitably manipulated by her madness, the Council purged five of their number for 'traitorous thoughts and deeds'. Instead of waiting and destroying them one at a time, they were purged simultaneously. The strength of the Ritual was powerful enough to kill everyone in the room, and up to eight floors below. I only survived as I had taken ill with Rubric's Malady a few days earlier.

"Six hundred people died that day. The new council was green, but they were clear on one thing - a disaster like must be avoided at all costs. The Ritual cannot accept more than four sacrifices. Your thoughts may be noble in intention, Kiffard, but they would be dreadful in execution."

Incantation Count

Seacore - 3 (SerialClergyman, DisCode, startransmission)

Snow_Bunny - 1 (Faraday)

Not Incanting - 8 (Chaco, Datadanne, Deathsauce, Magua, mipe, Seacore, semioldguy, Snow_Bunny)

The Ritual will take only 11 Incantations to complete at 6:00pm Sunday the 30th of November (site time).

Mod: Will alignment be revealed upon death? Will skills?

Yes and yes.

A breaking strategy has been brought to my attention - mass suicide! Nothing in the current ruleset prevents this tactic, and I think winning in this fashion would be rather unsatisfying for all involved. However, as it stands, this is the best strategy for town to pursue to guarantee them a "win".

I have therefore altered the rules concerning the Ritual. The Ritual can only consume a maximum of four players on any given day. If there are more than four players on the required number of Incantations, the four players who received the threshold vote first will be destroyed.

I have also found a backup mod -

tracker

will look after you for that week while I'm away.

With 12 alive, 12 Incantations are required to complete the Ritual.