Mini 885 - Boom, Game Gutshot/Abandoned by Mod!

[Humble Poirot]

Ok. I read xvart again because I was really sleepy last night and tended to fail near the end.

-He says he doesn't buy A_squirrel's vote being decided by random.org.

I do not accept that it was a coincidence; but, I don't necessarily think it was scummy; I think it's null at this point. It shall be filed away. With that said:

This is something that I do not follow. Why didn't he think it was scummy?

The point I was making about filing it away was simply because if a pattern of behavior develops surrounding the same sort of behavior I was mentioning, it ceases to be a null tell. One simple comment that can appear scummy can be made by anyone, but if it happens over and over, then further scrutiny is needed.

Help me understand. If he continues to do this kind of things he will be more likely scum or it will be more likely an attribute of his playstyle and therefore a nulltell?

while I may understand your train of thougths, I have trouble taking in your personality. You're different from what I'm used to.

-Says he should've said IGMEOY instead of "filing Away" the matter.

sidenote:

I don't think second place is really relevant. All that matters is the win. If a jester wins first or not. It's not our problem. The only problem is reducing our chances by not lynching scum today.

tl,dr:

I feel xvart is town. A particular one. But town.

@TheButtonmen:

Do you think that if xvart is scummy because he increased his postcount after you started pressuring him?
---

After my post.

Yes, I do tend to be a little verbose. I like to write posts that are a little more extravagent to add some personal flavor.

I didn't mean you were verbose or snob. I meant that you used words that had a strong accusation implied in them. You wouldn't say a town player fabricates things, would you?

also. You're the first to mention a 3 man scumteam. Why did you? What do you think is more probable?

I like Humble, he posts a lot of info and makes cognizant points. I feel he's town.

Thank you very much. Do you have a similar feeling on anyone else? Or a scum-read/feeling on someone?

5cvm... You've just avoided answering my questions and mocked everyone. You're climbing higher in the lynching scoreboard. If you're town, I strongly encourage you to do whatever you think you're doing to get scum. But do it fast and claim who's scum.

@Seregil.

Can you look back at my first post and answer my question?

@Evilgorrilaz:

I forgive you. But you haven't posted enough to have the slightest read on you. Therefore, you're as much as a liability as 5cvm.

1. No, its definitely not straightforward. I said it in a blunt manner to get reactions and add dramatic effect. AranFan was basically writing off 5cvm as scum. You can interpret it in different ways, but I feel that if 5cvm is scum, AranFan is likely scum because of it.

Ok. What if 5cvm is town? Would that mean anything regarding AranFan's allignment?

Why do you try to guess teammates with no flips? How is that pro-town?

3. How is it not pro-town? Scum are, excluding Masons, the only players in the game who know each others' alignments. Therefore, there will probably be some connections between them. Looking for those connections is a genuine scumhunting tactic. Obviously looking for connections should not be completely substituted for individual scummy behavior, but it can be a profitable line of inquiry.

I feel that trying to connect one player (assuming scum) with another to explain why you're voting is extremely weak and subject to manipulation. Until you have a flip, you can't link players to get a lynch. You need to lynch them for their exclusive playstyle. You can try to analyze connections once you have information from a flip. I understand your view but I don't share it. I think is a bad move. Especially early in the game. And lets not forget about the fact that usually "nothing is what it seems" in mafia.

@ChiboSempai

. I know where you come from now. But still, you should only take into account MS games. Other websites lack the theory to make really balanced setups. MS is generally more balanced because it has more documentation and history.

I DONT think 5cvm is scum. It's just to bold for what I perceive his personality to be. He might be jester. But that shouldn't concern us at all. If you think he is scum. Lynch away.

I want this day to end. I've already made my thoughts on 5cvm clear-- think he's just goofing around. I'm tired of it.

This I can not tolerate. You havent posted enough to want the day to end. You provide no reads whatsoever because you've been absent (intentionally or not). You can't just end the day. Also, what if he is goofing around? Do you think scum would goof around? why? If you don't think so, why are you voting him?

@Seregil

, are you saying that 2 people that are fighting on day 1 are scum together? Why cant they be town against scum? Why can't it be town against town?

Because I'm not a fan at all of day ones, where everything is just conjecture based on little evidence. After the first night, when you can go back and look at previous posts and try to glean something, that's what I like in this game, not the he-said she-said stuff that, in my experience, usually just ends with a random person getting lynched anyway.

On an unrelated note,

mod

, I'm out of town on business until Monday, and my internet access will be sporadic if existent.

What posts do you pretend to glean on??? You, Evilgorrilaz, hito still need to post much more before we can get the slightest read. You keep going on V/LA and you want it to end fast? If you want the day to end now. You must surely have something to "glean"... because there wont be more posts if the day ends. What have you got. Avoiding this will cause me to vote you.

@ Humble

, What do you mean I said scum is overt? If they were this game would be a hell of allot easier. Also Welcome to the game, hope you enjoy your stay and if you don;t mind me asking what's your previous experience with mafia?

Mainly for this:

@Aranfan Eliminating someone as a possible scum because they are too scummy to be scum is a terrible idea!

Sigh even if there was a a Jester; playing as a Jester is basically playing like scum (given that a jester wants to be lynched, thus they emulate scum). So if there was a jester there should be no way to tell their posts apart from scums.

Thus to assume there's a jester and ignore scummy posts for being to scummy means you also ignore scum tells from the mafia.

Bolded for emphasis. I disagree that scum and jester play alike. Jester can be overt to get lynched. He might play however he likes. Drop subtle scumtells or be pretty obv. Scum can't really do this. It would be extremely foolish. Scum only gambyts playing too scummy and trying to be seen as a jester when people start waggoning them. So, in their desperation, they might resort to this WIFOMic tactic, doomed to fail. Because they migth be vigged or inspected. They're getting to much in the spotlight.

My experience in MS is 1 & 1/2 games by myself. The 1/2 game is because we broke the setup and the mod stopped it . A friend of mine introduced me to mafia and allowed me to contribute in his games. I've read like 13-15 gamse. I know the wiki. I've played some lame games on other sites too. I've played some basic mafia IRL too. That's about it. Without being arrogant, I'd like to consider myself a decent player. But I still have trouble sometimes separating bad logic from scum logic. Town can make mistakes too. I try to get reads on everyone before moving on. I don't want d1 to end fast without expressing who I think is scum with a decent degree of certainty.

anyway... what is scum's posting style? you mention it here. Have you seen someone posting like that?

Also there is no deadline so I don't feel any pressure to vote.

Dont you think votes are useful? They serve the purpose of pressure and they clearly define who you're accusing.

Evilgorrilaz: I think you're the one active lurking. You've said very little in the last few posts. I'm going to ask you something. What if 5cvm was modkilled and flipped town? Who would you vote then? What if he flipped jester?

Why are we not voting 5cvm. To everyone not voting 5cvm: What are you waiting for, exactly?

I dont think he is scum. Why do you want to lynch him so fast? What do you think about people like rite, hito or evilgorrilaz? How do you intend to get them if any of those are scum?

Even if we ended up lynching 5cvm we shouldn't end the day quickly unless everyone has posted enough content about the game.

I like.

Ok. From now on, I'll post once a day if possible. Im caught up.

So I'll

vote Evilgorillaz

but rite looks like a good candidate too. If I'm going to lynch someone. I'd rather lynch people I can't read at all and that seem to be trying to be in the spotlight.

[Aranfan]

@ Arafan[/b], Who do you find the most scummy at this point and is there any questions you think should be asked?

Gorilla needs to lurk less and contribute more.




@ Humble, I'll respond after I get some food.

[Aranfan]

I like Humble, he posts a lot of info and makes cognizant points. I feel he's town.

Thank you very much. Do you have a similar feeling on anyone else? Or a scum-read/feeling on someone?

Not really. 5cvm is either a jester or a moron, and while Button is pinging my scumdar, it isn't hard enough for me to actually vote him. Everyone else is kinda neutral or needs to lurk less.

[hitogoroshi]

Humble, the thing is that 5cvm has made it abundantly clear he never intends to offer content. I don't want to keep a player like that until the endgame; he will be an active detriment to town. And the time to do a lynch like that is now, because we'll have more content D2 to work off of to pick our lynch (a nk and more posts, as well as knowledge of 5cvm's flip.) Do you really intend to leave him around the entire game? Do you really want to say, "Congratulations, 5cvm, you are such a terrible player we're going to let you live despite the fact you will never be a productive member of this game!"

As such, I'm keen to string up him so we can move on to more concrete matters. There is a such thing as 'too much content' and 'too long of a day', and the fact is D1 is one prone to mislynches because there is a lot of speculation and not much real information. It's a perfect day to policy lynch, because we don't NEED to know about everyone else: we know 5cvm is going to play anti-town, so we can murder him alignment be damned. It really is that simple.

[5cvm]

Are you guys really falling for hitogoroshi's thing? ^^

Although, scum might feel bad about calling names... hm, do scum get meaner or nicer? Hm, I guess it depends on who it is.

Ok yeah hitscum if I didn't already know you were scum I would have just found you out go me.

Update: TheButtonmen, xvart, and hitorogoshi are scum. Wait did I already say that before? Oh, right, only two other scum... hit is informed SK I forgot.

Please play nice guys. Except for hitorogoshi he gets a pass.

[A_Squirrel]

First, unvote as it was a random vote.

I'll follow up on my last post. Of Confid and Chibo I find Chibo more suspicious. When I last made notes he said (p3 somewhere) "I don't like xvart's replies."

I didn't find anything wrong with them so maybe Chibo was trying to make xvart seem more suspicous at a time where he was being questioned by others.

Vote Chibo

I don't like this post.

The second section sounds like your setting up an ultimatum of "One of Confid/Chibo is scum."

Scum could easily do this, try to get one lynched, and then when they flip town say that the other (presumably town) gets lynched as well.

Explain the bolded section please. I fail to see how Seregil sets up a dichotomy.

I don't see what the big deal about Seregil's comment

I don't either. Perhaps instead of looking at Chibo and Confid I should be looking at Chibo and hito?

Why drop Confid in favor of Hito?

Gotta love that avoidance of a question. You can find multiple people suspicious at one time, but I find it odd that you group us together and single us out for no given reason.

Correct. But finding two people scummy does not set up a dichotomy. Person A and Person B are scummy != Either A or B are scum.

A_Squirrel: Okay. I cheated here. Hearing the same argument that Aranfan used. I went to see who had issued it first (I can see that there might be some sort of unfairness in the order in wich I read the ISOs but I think I can work around it objectively, especially if I reread the whole game later)
It appears that A_squirrel just mimicked Aranfan. But not only that. He claimed it was from random.org. This I find scummy. The need to "blame" the votes on someone else looks like a preemptive defense mechanism. His explanation for this is unsatisfying. Then I see of a lot that looks like scumhunting. I like it from there so I will call it a null-tell and watch it from here. He doesn't seem to push to much but that may be his playstyle.

I stand by my earlier explanation. And in case you didn't notice, Aranfan and I posted at the same time. No mimicking. Also, do you see anything that you feel I should have pushed?

When we lynch TheButtonmen and he flips scum, the first place I'm looking is A_Squirrel since he not only random votes but also justifies it as actually being random based on a website.

So button is number one on your list(and you're sure he's scum), and I am number two? And my position is based on the earlier coincidence , which you said was a null and would be filed away for later? So what changed your mind?

@Hitogoroshi

:
Was post Seregil's response satisfactory? You gave him an ultimatum and then ignored him.

[Evilgorrilaz]

Less inclined to go for a lynch on 5cvm now. His last post was very nice.

[hitogoroshi]

Oh, is the standard how nice our posts are, and not whether or not they address anything in the game at all? In that case I'm going to stop posting content and just post a picture of a kitten once a day. Town, please ignore my entire lack of participation and let me live for the entire game unmolested, because hey, there's NO WAY scum would try to get away with that sort of thing, right?

[5cvm]

I gave you a pass, but you have gone above and beyond the call of duty.

If I didn't have role information indicating you are scum, you would be so totally towny right now. <3

Less inclined to go for a lynch on 5cvm now. His last post was very nice.

See, if he wasn't being sarcastic, this guy would understand!

Biggest thing to note here is that xvart has convieniently decreased his posting frequency now that he doesn't have to defend himself anymore. I should advise him to take a page out of TheButtonmen's book and post vague information and slightly helpful slightly directed questions.

[Aranfan]

Less inclined to go for a lynch on 5cvm now. His last post was very nice.

Moron. Humble's posts are nice, 5cvm's second to last post was worthless. His latest isn't much better.

[xvart]

Oh, is the standard how nice our posts are, and not whether or not they address anything in the game at all? In that case I'm going to stop posting content and just post a picture of a kitten once a day. Town, please ignore my entire lack of participation and let me live for the entire game unmolested, because hey, there's NO WAY scum would try to get away with that sort of thing, right?

This post was gold. I'll be posting in a couple hours.

xvart.

[xvart]

Ok. I read xvart again because I was really sleepy last night and tended to fail near the end.

-He says he doesn't buy A_squirrel's vote being decided by random.org.

I do not accept that it was a coincidence; but, I don't necessarily think it was scummy; I think it's null at this point. It shall be filed away. With that said:

This is something that I do not follow. Why didn't he think it was scummy?

Like I said (quote below), anyone can make a scummy statement, but when the behavior repeats, it needs further scrutiny. I found the comment such an interesting coincidence, and unverifiable one to boot, that I felt it was worth the vote at that stage in the game. It was scummy enough to warrant my first vote on the first page.

The point I was making about filing it away was simply because if a pattern of behavior develops surrounding the same sort of behavior I was mentioning, it ceases to be a null tell. One simple comment that can appear scummy can be made by anyone, but if it happens over and over, then further scrutiny is needed.

The point I was making about filing it away was simply because if a pattern of behavior develops surrounding the same sort of behavior I was mentioning, it ceases to be a null tell. One simple comment that can appear scummy can be made by anyone, but if it happens over and over, then further scrutiny is needed.

Help me understand. If he continues to do this kind of things he will be more likely scum or it will be more likely an attribute of his playstyle and therefore a nulltell?

Yes. Say A_Squirrel hammers some townsperson out of the blue and then says at the opening of the next day, "sorry everyone, I was drunk and did not realize so-and-so was at L-1. I wouldn't have placed my vote otherwise" I would consider that a potential fabrication of events to justify an action. That is what I was referring to about pattern of behavior. In that example, I would consider it a playstyle of covering his ass and scummy.

I feel xvart is town. A particular one. But town.

I'll take that as a compliment.

I didn't mean you were verbose or snob. I meant that you used words that had a strong accusation implied in them.

I didn't take it that way. I feel that giving a slight edge to posts gets a better/stronger reaction as opposed to asking one syllable worded questions.

You wouldn't say a town player fabricates things, would you?

Generally speaking, no; or at least I hope not. But then again, it is not outside the realm of possibility.

also. You're the first to mention a 3 man scumteam. Why did you? What do you think is more probable?

I did? Can you remind me where? I don't recall speaking about scum teams, but if I did it is probably because I just finished a 12 person game with 3 scum.

@A_Squirrel - I'll get your questions in a few minutes; I'm not ignoring you.

xvart.

[xvart]

When we lynch TheButtonmen and he flips scum, the first place I'm looking is A_Squirrel since he not only random votes but also justifies it as actually being random based on a website.

So button is number one on your list(and you're sure he's scum), and I am number two? And my position is based on the earlier coincidence , which you said was a null and would be filed away for later? So what changed your mind?

Honestly you had fallen off my radar, and I can't remember what the connection was. I think I was just posting my plans at the time to press you next. I also think I poorly led into the next comment about how if TheButtonmen, 5cvm, and you all turned out scum I would "crap my pants," just based on the opening of the day. At this time, I have no feelings towards you.

xvart.

[xvart]

also. You're the first to mention a 3 man scumteam. Why did you? What do you think is more probable?

I did? Can you remind me where? I don't recall speaking about scum teams, but if I did it is probably because I just finished a 12 person game with 3 scum.

I think I just found the reference when I made my last post. When I said if TheButtonmen, A_Squirrel, and 5cvm were scum I would crap my pants I didn't even think about it making a statement about a three man team. I guess it was just because the 12 person game I just finished had three people and 5cvm with his antics and the thing about A_Squirrel, it was more of a joke than anything.

xvart.

[Evilgorrilaz]

Oh, is the standard how nice our posts are, and not whether or not they address anything in the game at all? In that case I'm going to stop posting content and just post a picture of a kitten once a day. Town, please ignore my entire lack of participation and let me live for the entire game unmolested, because hey, there's NO WAY scum would try to get away with that sort of thing, right?

the more I read 5cvm, the more sense his posts seem to make (unless he is setting up an elaborate gambit, to which I guess I have fallen for?).

What if 5cvm was modkilled and flipped town? Who would you vote then? What if he flipped jester?

Initially I thought that 5cvm was doing his antic just because we was goofing off and such, but the more I read his posts I guess the better I get them. I don't think 5cvm is going to be modkilled.
1) He is scum and actually outed his scum team
2) He is scum but stated different people to protect his team/confuse the town
3) He is town so the people he calls scum with him (and the SK) are actually the people he finds scummy.
If he is town whatever. But if he is scum, there is so much WIFOM there we don't know what to make of it.
The only way I see him being modkilled is if he is scum and then quotes his role pm.

Right now I am reconsidering who to vote for. And if he flipped Jester/has posting restriction (like has to refer to himself as scum), I hate the mod.

[xvart]

the more I read 5cvm, the more sense his posts seem to make (unless he is setting up an elaborate gambit, to which I guess I have fallen for?).

Care to tell us what sense you've made of it?

Initially I thought that 5cvm was doing his antic just because we was goofing off and such, but the more I read his posts I guess the better I get them.

Again, what have you learned now from his posts?

I don't think 5cvm is going to be modkilled.

Well no duh. If he was going to be modkilled don't you think he would've been modkilled in one of the last ten posts by Boxman? Way to go out on a limb there.

xvart.

[Aranfan]

Evilgorrilaz, please, elucidate for us, because the only sense 5cvm makes to me is if he's a jester.

[Evilgorrilaz]

the more I read 5cvm, the more sense his posts seem to make (unless he is setting up an elaborate gambit, to which I guess I have fallen for?).

Care to tell us what sense you've made of it?

Initially I thought that 5cvm was doing his antic just because we was goofing off and such, but the more I read his posts I guess the better I get them.

Again, what have you learned now from his posts?

I don't think 5cvm is going to be modkilled.

Well no duh. If he was going to be modkilled don't you think he would've been modkilled in one of the last ten posts by Boxman? Way to go out on a limb there.

xvart.

I'd rather not assume he will get modkilled. Duh.

I could explain what I think his posts mean, but then again I could be completely wrong because I'm not him.

I think hes just reacting to people reacting to his playstyle, which is why he finds some people (like hito) scummy.

Then again I'm not him, and you would probably be better off asking him what he means.

[Seregil]

Why are we not voting 5cvm. To everyone not voting 5cvm: What are you waiting for, exactly?

Because I don't think he is scum at the moment.

[Seregil]

@Seregil.

Can you look back at my first post and answer my question?

Yes - below.

I don't either. Perhaps instead of looking at Chibo and Confid I should be looking at Chibo and hito?

why? Do you plan to follow up on Chibo? Don't you have any other questions for him?

1. The point about looking at hito too was because he posted this:

Confid's got a good point and you're avoiding it. You said you thought out of Chibo/Confid you found chibo more suspicious, but why the dichotomy? Why is it only between those two players?

I found Confid's logic on this point bizarre and then someone else jumps in to agree with it. Therefore I began to wonder about hito.

2. I already did follow up on Chibo by voting him.

3. I don't think I have any other questions for him now.

Also there is no deadline so I don't feel any pressure to vote.

Dont you think votes are useful? They serve the purpose of pressure and they clearly define who you're accusing.

Yes, but I already have a vote cast and didn't feel I needed to change it at the time.

@Seregil

, are you saying that 2 people that are fighting on day 1 are scum together? Why cant they be town against scum? Why can't it be town against town?

They could be any of the options you present. I decided to explore one of them.

***********

The person I am now most suspicious of is hito. I said above that I didn't like him joining in on Confid's "dichotomy" theory. I also don't like that he is pushing to lynch 5cvm. At the moment I feel 5cvm is not likely scum.

If

that is true then at least he has made it so that there is a smaller group of people who could be scum. Granted, it would be nice if he added more.

Unvote

Vote: Hito

[A_Squirrel]

I found Confid's logic on this point bizarre and then someone else jumps in to agree with it. Therefore I began to wonder about hito.

Again, why'd you drop Confid?

@Hitorogoshi, also again:

What happened to your ultimatum to Seregil? Are you satisfied with his response?

[hitogoroshi]

@Hitorogoshi, also again:

What happened to your ultimatum to Seregil? Are you satisfied with his response?

[Seregil]

I found Confid's logic on this point bizarre and then someone else jumps in to agree with it. Therefore I began to wonder about hito.

Again, why'd you drop Confid?

Because Confid is my second most suspicious now after hito. hito's push on 5cvm is the thing that I don't like most of all.

[xvart]

I'd rather not assume he will get modkilled. Duh.

My point that seem to be missing is if he was going to be modkilled, he would have on the first day when he said I'm scum with such and such people. Talking about 5cvm getting modkilled helps nothing, but whatever.

I could explain what I think his posts mean, but then again I could be completely wrong because I'm not him.

Then again I'm not him, and you would probably be better off asking him what he means.

And I'm asking you, not him, what you think his posts mean. You said they were making sense, and I want to hear what you see in his posts. Please, enlighten me.

xvart.

[Evilgorrilaz]

I'd rather not assume he will get modkilled. Duh.

My point that seem to be missing is if he was going to be modkilled, he would have on the first day when he said I'm scum with such and such people. Talking about 5cvm getting modkilled helps nothing, but whatever.

I could explain what I think his posts mean, but then again I could be completely wrong because I'm not him.

Then again I'm not him, and you would probably be better off asking him what he means.

And I'm asking you, not him, what you think his posts mean. You said they were making sense, and I want to hear what you see in his posts. Please, enlighten me.

xvart.

Point 1) I was answering someone when they asked what I think about 5cvm getting modkilled.
Point 2) I think hes just reacting to people reacting to his playstyle, which is why he finds some people (like hito) scummy.