Mafiascum.net

Ok so this has not been entirly clear to me. I have spoken my mind and said alot of useful information after I died but the game remained in twilight. Was that wrong???

Unless the mod specifies "no talking during twilight," I'm of the opinion that you can say all you want. Until the mod says you're dead, you're dead.

I agree with MeMe... so was 'no' the right choice to click?

I refuse to play in a "no talking during twilight" game unless the mod posts the transition to twilight (which really isn't twilight then...) Twilight is the term coined by Sketchwick to indicate the time after which the result is inevitable, but the mod hasn't showed up yet. You SHOULD NOT disallow twilight posts for many reasons, not the least of which, the players often mis-count. It also eliminates several interesting possible twists (like players that take extra votes to lynch, and many more).

-JEEP

Talking in twilight is interesting, even without vote-altering roles where the town is sometimes incorrect in assuming a lynch-majority has been reached. It gives people chance to say things that might alter various people's night-choices without the repercussions of being found suspect til the following day.

I clicked Yes, talking during twilight definitively should be allowed. It seems though that that was actually option No.
Whatever. It definitively should be allowed as you can never know for sure whether there are roles that have an influence on votes.

I chose I Don't Know because it depends on the mod.

I disallow twilight posting because it gives an out-of-game variable (Which players can get on to post before the mod does) potential for a profound effect on the game. If there are vote-affecting roles, I'd just say "No lynch for you! Twlight again with lynch+1 on him or lynch on anyone else."

I asked this because I saw a game in which a person posted after their death during twilight not knowing they were dead. Then later came back and said oops didn't mean to give anything away.

I like twilight discussion because people are no longer trying to save their ass's but trying to put as much logical information out their for the town that can be used by everyone if that person ends up being good.

Hmm... it always seemed to me that there's no real way to "disallow" twilight posting. I lock the thread as soon as I see a lynch, but that seems to be as far as a mod can go.

Norinel - how do you do it? Do you put "no twilight posting" in the rules, and rely on your players to uphold it? How do you punish players who violate it?

Personally, I think twilight posting is perfectly valid, but I'm curious as to how one would stop it.

I disallow twilight posting because it gives an out-of-game variable (Which players can get on to post before the mod does) potential for a profound effect on the game.

Then you have to assume that the players completely track the votes and can do the "determine majority" correctly (even if you post it in the vote counts).

Twilight isn't (or wasn't) a formal part of Mafia. It was Day when the mod said it was day and night when the mod said it was night. I think that is GOOD. Mods also said "once a lynch is reached, nothing that happens after that count for voting"... then the twilight term was coined. I think disallowing discussion hurts the game much more than allowing discussion does.

Think of it as the time between noosing the person and swatting the horse. People can still plead their case, even though at that point it only takes one person to swat the horse and lynch the guy. (you can use kicking the stool out if you don't like thinking of horses being the killer...)

-JEEP

CaptainBlicero wrote:Norinel - how do you do it? Do you put "no twilight posting" in the rules, and rely on your players to uphold it? How do you punish players who violate it?

More or less. It hasn't really come up yet, except in N58, where the lynching vote occurred while I was away and I pardoned everyone because it's not a common rule (As this thread shows). If somebody said something critical like a claim after a "hey, it's twilight" type post, probably a modkill; otherwise, it's situational.

Another logistic way to do it that'd put in another change would be to require players to use a different vote format for the final vote, something like . (Inspired by someone doing it in Designer 2) It'd have the side effect of eliminating accidental lynching.

jeep wrote:Then you have to assume that the players completely track the votes and can do the "determine majority" correctly (even if you post it in the vote counts).

Someone saying "Hey, that's eight, it's twilight." is totally fine. I say I'll forgive an honest mistake, and nothing critical's happened yet.

jeep wrote:Twilight isn't (or wasn't) a formal part of Mafia. It was Day when the mod said it was day and night when the mod said it was night. I think that is GOOD.

My reasoning: If the mod were online 24/7 and performed all modding duties instantaneously, twilight would not exist at all. The game should not be significantly affected by the fact that the mod usually can't.

My reasoning: If the mod were online 24/7 and performed all modding duties instantaneously, twilight would not exist at all. The game should not be significantly affected by the fact that the mod usually can't.

Right, the time between the final vote being cast and the mod declaring night is twilight. For an example of where you rule might have been problematic, look at Minvitational 4. Someone declared it was twilight. I unvoted. And many were surprised when it wasn't twilight after all. A player mis-counted. Had the player that mis-counted been me, then what would you do? Assume it was an innocent mistake or modkill me?

How does posting in twilight negatively affect the game?

-JEEP

I love coining shit.

Games need jargon. You learn the jargon because it's important to the rules.

I didn't vote on this poll because it was poorly worded.

Sex????

Anyway I agree 100% with jeep on this subject. As a mod I try to keep twilight as short as possible, but you are asking for trouble when you make rules that require you to differentiate between players who aren't paying attention and deviant miscreants who flagrantly go against your wishes.

I'm glad this thread exists though, because now I might toy with the mechanic of intentionally long twilights.

sketchwick

jeep wrote:For an example of where you rule might have been problematic, look at Minvitational 4. Someone declared it was twilight. I unvoted. And many were surprised when it wasn't twilight after all. A player mis-counted. Had the player that mis-counted been me, then what would you do? Assume it was an innocent mistake or modkill me?

In the actual situation, no rule would've been violated. But looking at the context, you posted after someone said he was at 5/6 and then someone put another vote on, which was sufficient warning. Had it actually been twilight, I'd've modkilled you because what you said along with the unvote could've had a significant effect on night choices and such.

Sketchwick wrote:you are asking for trouble when you make rules that require you to differentiate between players who aren't paying attention and deviant miscreants who flagrantly go against your wishes.

True, but making the deciding vote have a different format (Maybe just ) would mostly do away with that.

Edit:

jeep wrote:How does posting in twilight negatively affect the game?

Mostly because of the real world/gameworld thing I already mentioned, especially when it's the mod's portion of the real world. The day has to end at some defined point, and the casting of the final vote makes sense. Otherwise, some subset of the players (Since players are only expected to get on every 24-48 hours, and twilights aren't usually that long) are going to, essentially at random, going to get a chance to post something important.

In general, I am against modkilling for something like this. However,

You SHOULD NOT disallow twilight posts for many reasons, not the least of which, the players often mis-count. It also eliminates several interesting possible twists (like players that take extra votes to lynch, and many more).

I also disagree with this. It applies to some games, but not to all. Take, for example, any game in which the roles are known beforehand. There aren't twists, so that's not a problem. For miscounting, if you think it *might* be twilight (because someone else said so, or whatever), is it that difficult to do a recount yourself? In Minv4, it wasn't a rule, but if it *had* been a rule, then it would've taken you a couple extra minutes to check and see that CB had gotten the count wrong; posting while you aren't sure would be a violation of the rule. Not one I would modkill you for, but one I, as a mod, would be annoyed about.

I guess the point I am trying to make here is that the players do need to keep up with such things (it makes for a better game). In the live version you don't have this problem, the player is dead as soon as he/she has a majority, because the mod is always there. The death occurs at majority, *not* when the mod says so. Obviously there are variants that need a "twilight" in case something screwy is going on, but not all games do.

I'm pretty sure there are some possible things that can go wrong if you allow twilight posts all the time, but I don't have time to think about it at the moment (meeting with advisors, whee).

I don't really don't trust any post in twilight, especially if it's the lynch victim. I just can shake the idea that someone's trying to influence the town in one last desperate attempt. And most the other posts are just useless, low content posts, IMO. So, twillight posts bug me. You're about to be lynched; have a little dignity.

The main problem I'm having with twilight posts is if a cop gets lynched. As a mod, I very much would like to see that a player in that case has the decency not to give out relevant information anymore. Or if a mason near the endgame identifies his/her last remaining partner in twilight. These actions seriously disturb the course of the game. If the lynchee is scum, or a townie without crucial info, they can talk until the mod comes home. The same holds for the other players.

As a mod, I very much would like to see that a player in that case has the decency not to give out relevant information anymore. Or if a mason near the endgame identifies his/her last remaining partner in twilight. These actions seriously disturb the course of the game.

These fall into the same category that Norinel wants to avoid. If I cannot get to my computer and I get bandwagonned while I'm out, I cannot reveal the information that I would have if I was at my computer 24x7. This means that I could get lynched within the 4 horus I'm sleeping at night and not have a chance to say anything. Again, in a real life game, this isn't a problem. This is part of the reason I think twilight posting SHOULD be allowed. If I'm at 7 of 8 to lynch and I've already claimed cop, I'll probably reveal any information I have if I think it will help the town. If I get that close while I'm out, should the I and the town be punished? If I'm at 3/8, I probably won't reveal.

As to mith's comments, I agree that people should keep track, and I generally do. I DID do a recount, but wasn't convinced enough to simply unvote without the conditional.

As soon as the game is over we can discuss if I gave any inappropriate information- assuming it was indeed twilight.

-JEEP

Dragon Phoenix wrote:The main problem I'm having with twilight posts is if a cop gets lynched. As a mod, I very much would like to see that a player in that case has the decency not to give out relevant information anymore. Or if a mason near the endgame identifies his/her last remaining partner in twilight. These actions seriously disturb the course of the game. If the lynchee is scum, or a townie without crucial info, they can talk until the mod comes home. The same holds for the other players.

I generally expect people to give lynch victims the chance to share info before entering twilight (they will be suspect if they rush a lynch). Besides, players shouldn't wait to share until they know they've been lynched. They usually get enough chances before that.

And technically speaking a majority vote decides someone should be tied up, but placing votes will not do the deed. Therefore, I allow twilight posting.

If there's something someone isn't allowed to reveal, won't mentioning it in their role PM be enough?

If I'm at 7 of 8 to lynch and I've already claimed cop, I'll probably reveal any information I have if I think it will help the town. If I get that close while I'm out, should the I and the town be punished? If I'm at 3/8, I probably won't reveal.

If I were in that position I'd use my valuable twilight posts to say "screw you" to the town who lynched me. If they are going to put five votes on someone without letting them post a defense, then yes, of course they deserve to be punished.

Town could only need to put 2 more votes on it before scum jump the wagon. And if I'm unavailable over the week end, then people might get impatient and kill me before noon on Monday. If the mod makes it night, I never get a chance, and that's fine. However, if the mod hasn't come on and said it's night, IMO, it should not be night. By dis-allowing posts after a majoity you are basically eliminating twilight and making the majority vote be the trigger for night. That fine, as a mod you can implement whatever rules you want. I just don't think it's fair.

-JEEP

If the town lets it get close enough for the scum to "jump the wagon", that's really their own fault. And anyway, whoever lynches you without giving you a chance to speak up is going to look pretty scummy.

If the mod makes it night, I never get a chance, and that's fine. However, if the mod hasn't come on and said it's night, IMO, it should not be night. By dis-allowing posts after a majoity you are basically eliminating twilight and making the majority vote be the trigger for night.

How is this any less arbitrary than no twilight? Rather than basing it on whether a player is on at a certain time, you're basing it on whether the mod is. The mod is not meant to have an effect on the outcome of the game like that. I agree that there are some cases where it's "unfair" to someone, but the unfairness is on the shoulders of the players, where it belongs; on the voters, for the early lynch, and on the lynched, for waiting too long.

If I get that close while I'm out, should the I and the town be punished?

You aren't being "punished", that's just the way things worked out. By allowing twilight posts, you are punishing the Mafia more than you are punishing the town by disallowing them. It may seem unfair when you *are* town, but the mod is meant to be impartial. I would rather have some objective end to day (a majority) than having some nebulous twilight that depends on the mod's schedule.

It should always be allowed, I think. The player that's being lynched would have the chance to keep talking after the people around him were dragging him to the post irl, so why shouldn't the lynchee in this game get the same chance? As night scenes go he doesn't drop dead when the majority is reached, they drag him to the stand first. Let him talk till he's pronounced dead by the mod.

-DS