Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[Furry]

Vote No Lynch

[Benmage]

That actually depends on the mod. Some force the scum to NK, some declare a draw after so many days.

@Benmage: What's your policy in this situation?

Scum can choose not to NK. Everyone can no lynch tomorrow again...i suppose....my patience will grow weary and I'll start dice rolling lynches..so my advice would be one no lynch max.

[Benmage]

Final Vote Count:

No Lynch (3) Papa Zito, MordyS, Furry
Not Voting (1) foilist13

The townspeople of Plainview thinking it best to see what another night would bring decided to vote no lynch.

It’s Night Phase Deadline ************Fast One Wednesday Jan 06 1PM EST (I’m going away on Wednesday).

[Benmage]

And then there were three...

afatchic

PhaerieM

Furry the

Vanilla Townie

has been killed on N5.

Deadline Wed. Jan 20. 2pm EST.

With 3 alive it takes 2 to lynch.

(I'm going to be away till Sunday the 10th)

[MordyS]

Ok, foilist13, who was your primary suspect yesterday that you couldn't share with us?

[MordyS]

You know what? I'm gonna go with my gut here. I think Papa Zito is the final scum. I think it's the only explanation for this final 3. Why would me and foilist13 be left alive? Presumably because foilist13 suspects me from the archaebob incident and he's considered weaker scum. If I were scum, I wouldn't have left Papa Zito + PhaerieM alive until the end (they were both pretty clear in my eyes), and it doesn't make sense that Papa Zito was left alive until 3p. Why kill Sanjay over Papa Zito? Moreover, reading him throughout the game he was very agreeable, he buddied with me often (saying more than once that we were on the same page), and though he was on both lynches, he never drove both lynches. He got on Sociopath early, but that could've been good luck since the wagon shifted onto Sociopath after he already moved. He agreed with the Gammagooey lynch, but how could he say no to it? The cop had already suspected Gammagooey. In fact, if you read his comment, the tone sounds like he's conceding that:

Good deal. Especially since nobody was suspecting him.

Which sounds a bit to me like: Good job, Gammagooey but bad luck getting called out like that.

Vote: Papa Zito

God, I hope I'm right. I'm taking a huge risk assuming that foilist13 has just played poorly throughout this game and isn't actually scum. If it turns out he is scum, I'm kinda going to be disgusted and become a huge proponent of policy lynches in the future. Scum shouldn't be allowed to cruise through the game by playing VI. (I don't think he's scum however -- it doesn't make sense that foilist13 is scum.)

Anyway. Trying not to second-guess/WIFOM myself. Foilist13, if you are scum, please don't slowroll the hammer.

[MordyS]

EBWOP he's considered a weaker player*, not weaker scum.

[Papa Zito]

Dude, Mordy, unvote. There's no rush here.

I'm 99% it's Foilist and he just ran out of room to hide. Need to go reread you two.

[MordyS]

Unvote

But I think it's you and you're going to have to make a freaking amazing compelling case against foilist13 to convince me otherwise.

[Papa Zito]

Unvote

But I think it's you and you're going to have to make a freaking amazing compelling case against foilist13 to convince me otherwise.

I'm going to make a case on each of you and see which one makes more sense.

Is the fact that I'm here basically the only issue you have with me? Because that's pretty severe WIFOM territory if that's true.

[MordyS]

That, but moreso, it doesn't make sense that it's foilist13.

[Papa Zito]

Ok, here's foilist. I don't have time to do Mordy now, I'll look at him tonight.

Day 1

The initial snafu about voting the wrong person, then refusing to move the vote, is interesting now that we have Gamma's flip. It looks like he didn't want to vote his buddy here. Especially this bit:

My vote is still on Gammagooey because I have not seen fit to move it to someone else. Why did yours stay on Muffin for so long?

....where he also questions someone voting Muffin.

Foilist takes a lot of heat for refusing to move the vote. Shortly after, completely out of the blue, we have a case alleging Muffin is active lurking (iso 11). Don't think he's not aware of the timing, either:

6) I continue to be attacked after my muffin case, so I post the reasons I came up with earlier.

I think he got spooked and tried a distancing tactic. Iso 60 is a fun read by itself, really scrambling.

It is bothering me that no one is responding to my post on Muffin. What, are one of you his scum partner trying to take attention away from your scumbuddy?

Here foilist draws attention to his Muffin case again. I bring this up because, after this post, we don't hear anything substantial about Muffin from foilist again. Instead he wagon-hops to whoever the town happens to be looking at at the moment. Speaking of which:

Well I'm in no position to go crying, so sure.

unvote, vote:Sociopath

This post comes directly after this one:

Actually, I'll take it a bit further. If he is scum:

SocioPath (5) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS

I'd put HEAVY money on that whole list being town.

How you like them apples.

... which I mentioned before, I think. The vote itself is bad... voting for the sake of voting... but I really think it came in reaction to SpyreX's post.

Day 2

Here we see some really interesting Gamma interactions.

Right now I find Almaster and cruelty (in light of Gammagooey's evidence) super scummy.

He'll later use Gamma's post again in a case against cruelty.

@Gammagooey - I'm willing to back off Cruelty for now, and yes I'll try and be civil, but he and Archaebob have been less than that towards me this game, and it's starting to get under my skin.

Taking a buddy's advice?

Another problem here is that, while he posted some minor suspicions of Gamma on Day 1:

Gammagooey - Hasn't been very useful at all, and my misvote against him in the beginning represents my feelings of minor scumminess.

... they seem to have completely evaporated for no good reason on Day 2.

I have reread Gammagooey, and it is precisely because I believe he is town that I would be impressed if he were scum.

Day 3

Day 3 dawns with a cop guilty on Gamma. So foilist joins the wagon, right?

I'm willing to lynch gammagooey at the end of the day if it comes down to claims, but right now I need to vote: MordyS

after that stunt you pulled you are obv scum. No amount of frustration can come close to explaining that.

... oh.

A few posts, and Gamma votes, later:

@Sanjay - I see no reason to doubt Peanut's claim. If there was another cop, he would have claimed by now, and the godfather does indicate that there would be a cop in the first place. Peanut's logic is solid.

The only reason not to lynch is to get more info, but we already have info. We know who the next scum player is, and if through some twist of fate peanut is lying and the mod put in a godfather for no reason, then we'll be able to lynch him tomorrow, leaving us with 3 town to 1 scum, giving us another opportunity, and much more useful opportunity to no lynch.

unvote, vote: Gammagooey

Quite a change of heart. This looks just like the Sociopath wagon vote.

Day 4

Oops, foilist contradicts himself.

@Papa Zito - I wasn't totally convinced of Peanut's cop claim at the time, but I should have made it more clear that I intended to lynch gammagooey.

Day 3 he said he had no reason to doubt the claim, but on Day 4 he wasn't really convinced?

There's a lot of flipflopping on cruelty.

That's the general basis of the case on cruelty right now, and I'm starting to find it pretty convincing.

He starts here. But then he starts defending cruelty.

Cruelty thought you were both town. he didn't know that you were both town. He wanted to see if you were both town. So he let you argue.

@Mordy - You are implying that Cruelty meant letting you as town bury yourself, which is obviously a stupid thing for him to say, and I know he is intelligent enough not to have meant that.

But then he does this:

I think right now that is the most important information to be had, and even though I personally think Mordy is more likely to be the next scum, Cruelty is a close second. With that in mind, unvote, Vote:Cruelty

???

He then refuses to explain:

You aren't the number one scum anymore. You now occupy the number three spot. However I have come to the conclusion that the best play is to lynch cruelty, then move on to tomorrow if he is not the last scum. Mordy, you aren't going to get a case until tomorrow, and possibly not even then. This all depends on my third suspect whom I am not going to disclose until I try to lynch them.

Day 5

The Sanjay NK is weird, but I think it was because Sanjay started pushing foilist pretty hard at the end of Day 4.

Here's where foilist reveals himself, I think.

Yeah, it's Mylo. I'm going to have to put my vote there as well for now. I can't see how it wouldn't be the right move.

Actually, unvote. I want to be sure we get some serious discussion in before we no lynch it up. I never really thought about quick no lynching, but it seems like a legitimate concern.

@Papa - who are your suspects, why?

This is foilist trying to figure out who to NK.

Then I explain to him why we need to No Lynch without discussion, but does he hammer?

Interesting.

... no. I think He was holding out hope that PhaerieM would come back and give him some information to work with.

And here we are.

[foilist13]

It was Sanjay Mordy, then I thought it might be phaerie, but they're both dead now.

Why you and I are still alive is wifom. You ciuldhave put me here to defend yourself, because "why would you leave someone who obviously suspects you?"

however you are the scum.

You voted.

The only reason you would have voted in lylo is if you were sure you found the scum, or if you just had to convince one of the townies. =/

So the only reason you could have voted as town in lylo is if you were absolutely sure. If you were absolutely sure, why did you unvote?

[Papa Zito]

One quick thing.

That, but moreso, it doesn't make sense that it's foilist13.

So if you believe foilist to be town, this would have to be your worldview:

AlmasterGM

(4)

MordyS

,

Gammagooey

,

foilist13

,

SpyreX

foilist13

(4)

cruelty

,

archaebob

,

Sanjay

,

AlmasterGM

cruelty

(1)

Papa Zito

archaebob

(1)

peanutman

Not Voting (2)

Muffin

,

PhaerieM

This is just before I shifted a wagon onto Sociopath. So your argument is that, while there were two competing townie bandwagons, one on a claimed doc, and either of which could have easily been pushed to lynch, I chose instead to bus my Godfather?

Back tonight with a look at Mordy. foilist, when you get on please don't drop a vote.

[Papa Zito]

Lawl, sniped.

[MordyS]

Here's what I think foilist13. I think that Papa Zito left you and I alive because he thought it would be easy to pit us against each other. If it goes down the way I imagine it will, either you'll vote me and Papa Zito will hammer, or me and Zito will crossvote and you'll hammer me. I unvoted because Papa Zito is right, however. There's no need to rush things, and if I'm right about how this is gonna roll, no point pushing to the inevitable conclusion.

That said, I'm not 100% convinced now. I was mostly convinced (and I wanted to go with my gut), but something new has caught my attention. If foilist13 is scum, it actually makes some sense to keep me around -- he's been pushing against me since the archaebob thing, so it could be he wanted to use that as the final bang. However:

If Papa Zito left me and foilist13 alive because he assumed foilist13 would vote for me, he could have just crossvoted me instead of asking me to unvote and then waited for the (inevitable) foilist13 hammer. He didn't, though, he asked me to unvote. Which is why I did unvote (because scum-Papa Zito presumably wouldn't ask me to unvote, unless he was worried he was foilist13's other suspect). Also:

The only reason you would have voted in lylo is if you were sure you found the scum, or if you just had to convince one of the townies. =/

That =/ sounds a lot like, "I'm disappointed I missed the easy hammer."

Of course, why would scum-foilist13 try to push the case on me? He already knows that I suspected Papa Zito the most. Why not claim Papa Zito was his #1 suspect and just push hard against him, maybe even dropping a vote (knowing after the archaebob incident that I'm impulsive and would likely drop a hammer). Hrm.

See, this is why I just wanted to vote and be done with it. Now I'm clouded with WIFOM.

[MordyS]

foilist13, a question: You say that suspected Sanjay, then PhaerieM, then me in that order. Why absolutely no suspicion of Papa Zito?

[MordyS]

EBWOP, two quick points:

1. I also don't trust people who don't suspect every player. "knowing" who scum is is generally scumtell imo, and uncertainty is much more townie. So foilist13 having no doubt whatsoever about who is scum worries me. Also, foilist13, why did you say you know I'm scum, but you're not voting for me?

2. My absolutely weakest spot in playing Mafia is telling the difference between VI's and scum. So foilsit13 has basically completely screwed up my radar this game, which is why I made the comment before about policy lynching.

Anyway, here's why it doesn't make sense that foilist13 is scum: He attacked Gammagoeoy in the early game, and then Muffin. Gammagooey attacked foilist13 instead of hunting archaebob.

Here's why he could be scum: He knew day one that Gammagooey and Muffin were scum, though he didn't push hard on either of them. Either he's the most amazing scum hunter ever (like Sanjay thought), or he knew who scum was. He knew that archaebob wasn't scum. How could he know that? EVERYONE thought archaebob was scum. archaebob was scummy.

[MordyS]

One more thing: There's three of us left. This game is 66 pages long. I know Papa Zito said he'll post his case tonight but let's not drag this out. Ie: Foilist13, if you -think- I'm scum, vote me and if Papa Zito doesn't hammer, I'll crossvote and maybe we can wrap this up by tonight.

[foilist13]

I don't want to wrap this up, I want to win. I didn't vote you because tha would be stupid. I'm pretty sure, but I'm not possitive.

I can't find solid reasons to think papa is scum.

I can find solid reasons to think you are scum.

I can find two of them in fact.

1) You hammered archaebob, when he had promised answers at a set time.
2) You just voted in lylo without hearing any conversation. I do not buy that you just didn't realize the scum player could hammer and be done.

So instead of trying to end things quickly, and rely on papas case on mento convince him to side with you, convince we that you are town and go after papa, since clearly you have strong suspicions of him.

Also if you are scum, how could you not leave me alive into lylo? It would be sheer idiocy to leave me alive and be left with papa and furry/phaerie, both of whom have been semi confirmed town most of the day.

It seems like a perfect play to me that you leave me alive to try and show your innocense, and convince papa to go after me. Then you make a show of voting papa so that it isn't obvious, and you let him convince you that I'm the scum. Pretty handy, no? You could vote like that, because you are in no danger of scum quickhammering.

I see the mindset argument against papa, but you make more sense. If you want to win you need to convince either papa or me that we are wrong and to vote for the other. If you're town, you also need to be right, but I don't think that's too much of a concern for you.

I'm going to think about this long and hard before I vote, but it would be a poor play by either of you who suspects the other to leave me to make up my own mind.

[foilist13]

Let's look at it another way.

You the townie come into day 6, after two nights of rereading, and you have a town read on me, and think papa is scum, then after less than a page of debate you are suddenly conviced and willing to vote me and see what happens?

I think not.

[MordyS]

2) You just voted in lylo without hearing any conversation. I do not buy that you just didn't realize the scum player could hammer and be done.

We're in lylo, so I can phrase this strenuously. Don't mischaracterize my position again or I'll vote for you. Period. You've been doing it all game and you look ready to do it some more. I never claimed I was ignorant of the consequences of voting in lylo.

Also if you are scum, how could you not leave me alive into lylo? It would be sheer idiocy to leave me alive and be left with papa and furry/phaerie, both of whom have been semi confirmed town most of the day.

If I were scum I would have left Sanjay and PhaerieM alive, obviously.

It seems like a perfect play to me that you leave me alive to try and show your innocense, and convince papa to go after me. Then you make a show of voting papa so that it isn't obvious, and you let him convince you that I'm the scum.

Actually, I wouldn't keep you alive because I don't think I can convince you of anything. You're a moron.

I see the mindset argument against papa, but you make more sense. If you want to win you need to convince either papa or me that we are wrong and to vote for the other. If you're town, you also need to be right, but I don't think that's too much of a concern for you.

First of all, Papa Zito has been convinced you're scum for days now. If I was scum I would have pushed a case on you, not on him. I wouldn't have to convince him of anything. He said he was 99% sure you're scum.

I'm going to think about this long and hard before I vote, but it would be a poor play by either of you who suspects the other to leave me to make up my own mind.

lol. Because you're cleared? Seriously, explain this. You don't have a hammer vote and it could easily end up with me and you crossvoted or you and Papa Zito crossvoted as it could me and Papa Zito crossvoted.

[MordyS]

More:

1) You hammered archaebob, when he had promised answers at a set time.

Do you believe this is a scumtell more than a towntell? If so, why? Also, if so: Why was I your third suspect after PhaerieM and Sanjay, neither of whom had this "scumtell."

Answer this please. It's very important.

[foilist13]

PhaerieM
Mafia Scum





Gender:
Joined: 06 Nov 2009
Location: USA

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:25 am    Post subject: 12
Seriously Mordy?? He said Friday! From the very beginning he said Friday! You couldn't wait for him for one day? And now I'm left to wonder if scum would do something so *amazingly* stupid & reckless & paint a huge target on their back that way.

You know what? Either way, you are dangerous and horrible for the town. As town or scum.

vote: MordyS

Interesting who didn't make it to lylo.

And yes, that is clearly a scum tell. It makes sense as scum, not as town. I don't buy into "too scummy to be scum." That is just an excuse for scum to behave anti-town under cover of wifom.

[MordyS]

You didn't answer my question.