Mini 865 -- Evil Eyes (Over)

[julienvonwolfe]

erm, double post fail. Sorry.

[ekiM]

• Claims are for stopping power roles getting lynched. Apart from that function, claims are bad. They let the scum know whom to target.
  
• Unnecessary claims are really bad. Claims should happen when a clear and solid majority wants to lynch someone. Not before.
  
• Don't ask for a claim too early. Just because someone is at L-1 doesn't mean "it's time for them to claim". Only if everyone currently on the wagon is still gung-ho for a lynch, and someone else is ready to hammer. L-2 is ridiculously early.
  
• If someone asks you to claim and you think it's too soon, don't just submit. Argue against it.
  
• Vanilla claims should never stop a lynch, if the claim was requested at the right time. If they did, it means they were asked too early. (N.B., it's not scummy to claim as vanilla, it's just a bad idea. Argue the wagon instead.)

[ekiM]

julienvonwolfe what was the value in making a long post analyzing a silly argument?

[julienvonwolfe]

Well, it was the most significant thing in the thread to date, and spurred at least a few votes - eg. IAUN's, and Nuwen's.

Would you have chosen to ignore it? What do you think of my analysis? Do you disagree with my conclusions?

[xRECKONERx]

Why are you so keen to claim?

Vote: Hoopla

Rolefishing.

[MacavityLock]

Why are you so keen to claim?

Vote: Hoopla

Rolefishing.

How are you reading that as rolefishing?

[Toro]

Why are you so keen to claim?

Vote: Hoopla

Rolefishing.

How are you reading that as rolefishing?

/smashes head through wall to butt into convo

I'm not reading that as rolefishing at all, as from reading Mr Suave's post it seems that he's asking us if he should claim or not. Though in this time he's probably either thought up a fake claim or is just preparing to post his claim.

[Nuwen]

I like most of julien's post. He articulates well the issue: Nuwen asked for fringe information, Geek asked Nuwen why Nuwen wanted fringe information, Nuwen held off answering until Geek said Nuwen was scummy. I have a different read on why that back and forth resolved the way it did, however:

1. I took care to explain that I didn't think age was relevant to alignment. This is key. Because I emphasized that the information would contribute to a personality baseline,

not act as case material

, trying to call that act scummy is scummy unto itself. Geek is painting an alignment-neutral action in a negative light.

2. The difference between Nuwen's qualms with Geek and Geek's qualms with Nuwen:

1. Nuwen asks for alignment-independent info.
   
2. Geek inquires why (alignment independent
   so far
   ) Nuwen wants info if it won't be used to hunt scum.
   
3. Nuwen wonders aloud why Geek cares, since the information won't be used in a case (this is the regression that julien pointed out, where our problems with each other seem identical)
   
4. Geek commits to a stance and says Nuwen is scummy for fishing out information that isn't indicative of alignment (here's were Geek becomes scummy - not because he believes I'm scummy, but because he's opportunistically using an alignment neutral action as fuel for a case)

The reasoning is confusing and seems similar. The timing is important. In retrospect, it appears that Geek was looking for a foothold with which he could build a case.

Nuwen, I'm not seeing why scum wouldn't do this. IAUN's vote was basically at the tail end of the RVS in my opinion (see Hoopla's later Suave vote), and as such, didn't need a heck of a lot of reasoning behind it. I can see why he made it, though, if he is town.

I've always thought that votes to end the RVS garner the

most

attention - the first, second (and sometimes third) vote switches of the game are usually picked to death in subsequent post, and I've noticed that scum tend to avoid that type of attention. If a scum player DOES lead the way out of RVS, it's usually with a very strong case (fabricated or not). No stated reason draws attention to Iam, which seems like an action more likely to be taken by a town player poking out information.

[Nuwen]

Tubby needs to post something committing soon. His presence in this game has been chatty, and he isn't tied to any other players at all.

[MacavityLock]

Why are you so keen to claim?

Vote: Hoopla

Rolefishing.

How are you reading that as rolefishing?

/smashes head through wall to butt into convo

I'm not reading that as rolefishing at all, as from reading Mr Suave's post it seems that he's asking us if he should claim or not. Though in this time he's probably either thought up a fake claim or is just preparing to post his claim.

While I agree with Toro in principle here, something feels off about this post. It's quite a bit of coaching for 2 sentences. I'm just not sure if Toro is trying to coach Reck, Suave, or both.

[julienvonwolfe]

I like most of julien's post. He articulates well the issue: Nuwen asked for fringe information, Geek asked Nuwen why Nuwen wanted fringe information, Nuwen held off answering until Geek said Nuwen was scummy. I have a different read on why that back and forth resolved the way it did, however:

1. I took care to explain that I didn't think age was relevant to alignment. This is key. Because I emphasized that the information would contribute to a personality baseline,

not act as case material

, trying to call that act scummy is scummy unto itself. Geek is painting an alignment-neutral action in a negative light.

2. The difference between Nuwen's qualms with Geek and Geek's qualms with Nuwen:

1. Nuwen asks for alignment-independent info.
   
2. Geek inquires why (alignment independent
   so far
   ) Nuwen wants info if it won't be used to hunt scum.
   
3. Nuwen wonders aloud why Geek cares, since the information won't be used in a case (this is the regression that julien pointed out, where our problems with each other seem identical)
   
4. Geek commits to a stance and says Nuwen is scummy for fishing out information that isn't indicative of alignment (here's were Geek becomes scummy - not because he believes I'm scummy, but because he's opportunistically using an alignment neutral action as fuel for a case)

The reasoning is confusing and seems similar. The timing is important. In retrospect, it appears that Geek was looking for a foothold with which he could build a case.

I'll wait to see what Geek says before giving any more of my own thoughts. Your position is reasonable, though.


Now, for all, here's how Suave plays as scum:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

Based on this game alone I feel like policy-lynching the bugger for being unreadable, at least to me. I ended up thinking the whole game that he was newb-town, but he ended up being newb-scum.

However, this is a bit irrational on my part, so instead I'm just going to keep a close eye on Suave, and not make the same mistake again. I have learnt that noobiness plus hyperactive gerbil posting doesn't always equal town, and so will be much more willing for a Suave lynch this time. Basically, to get my eye off him, he'll have to be onto it with his voting patterns and scumhunting techniques.

[Toro]

Why are you so keen to claim?

Vote: Hoopla

Rolefishing.

How are you reading that as rolefishing?

/smashes head through wall to butt into convo

I'm not reading that as rolefishing at all, as from reading Mr Suave's post it seems that he's asking us if he should claim or not. Though in this time he's probably either thought up a fake claim or is just preparing to post his claim.

While I agree with Toro in principle here, something feels off about this post. It's quite a bit of coaching for 2 sentences. I'm just not sure if Toro is trying to coach Reck, Suave, or both.

I get where you're coming from thinking it's coaching, but I'm just posting my PoV really.

[Toro]

I like most of julien's post. He articulates well the issue: Nuwen asked for fringe information, Geek asked Nuwen why Nuwen wanted fringe information, Nuwen held off answering until Geek said Nuwen was scummy. I have a different read on why that back and forth resolved the way it did, however:

1. I took care to explain that I didn't think age was relevant to alignment. This is key. Because I emphasized that the information would contribute to a personality baseline,

not act as case material

, trying to call that act scummy is scummy unto itself. Geek is painting an alignment-neutral action in a negative light.

2. The difference between Nuwen's qualms with Geek and Geek's qualms with Nuwen:

1. Nuwen asks for alignment-independent info.
   
2. Geek inquires why (alignment independent
   so far
   ) Nuwen wants info if it won't be used to hunt scum.
   
3. Nuwen wonders aloud why Geek cares, since the information won't be used in a case (this is the regression that julien pointed out, where our problems with each other seem identical)
   
4. Geek commits to a stance and says Nuwen is scummy for fishing out information that isn't indicative of alignment (here's were Geek becomes scummy - not because he believes I'm scummy, but because he's opportunistically using an alignment neutral action as fuel for a case)

The reasoning is confusing and seems similar. The timing is important. In retrospect, it appears that Geek was looking for a foothold with which he could build a case.

I'll wait to see what Geek says before giving any more of my own thoughts. Your position is reasonable, though.


Now, for all, here's how Suave plays as scum:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

Based on this game alone I feel like policy-lynching the bugger for being unreadable, at least to me. I ended up thinking the whole game that he was newb-town, but he ended up being newb-scum.

However, this is a bit irrational on my part, so instead I'm just going to keep a close eye on Suave, and not make the same mistake again. I have learnt that noobiness plus hyperactive gerbil posting doesn't always equal town, and so will be much more willing for a Suave lynch this time. Basically, to get my eye off him, he'll have to be onto it with his voting patterns and scumhunting techniques.

Lynching him because he's unreadable? Are you serious? So what you're saying is that if you can't get a read on him, he deserves to die? You're f**king kidding me.

[julienvonwolfe]

Surely you noticed how I followed that statement with 'but that's irrational..."?

The reason that I couldn't get a read was because of the "newbie vs scum" conumdrum. Now that he's no longer a newb, he doesn't have any excuse for scummy behaviour.

[Toro]

Surely you noticed how I followed that statement with 'but that's irrational..."?

The reason that I couldn't get a read was because of the "newbie vs scum" conumdrum. Now that he's no longer a newb, he doesn't have any excuse for scummy behaviour.

Reading the entire post, not my strong suit apparently.

[MrSuave]

That scum meta was a one time use thing though. I can't pull the noob stuff off anymore xD. But I think generally I don't think that I'm that easy to read. I mean, I do most of my scummy stuff in my mind and play out things in my head, till I find the best senario, and I change the plan as things change on me. But I don't think that being unreadable is a reason for a lynch on me D=. Also I was just asking if I should claim at L-2, because L-2 is pretty close to L-1 in my mind.

[HowardRoark]

Vote Count (D1)

Nuwen (1) -- geekalicious
Hoopla (1) -- MrSuave
MrSuave (5) -- julienvonwolfe, xRECKONERx, MacavityLock, SophistricDoctrine, Hoopla
geekalicious (2) -- iamausername, Nuwen
SophisticDoctrine (1) -- ekiM
Toro (1) -- Toro

Not Voting (1) -- tubby216

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: 12 NOV 2009 at 5:15 pm UTC (Countdown)

[geekalicious]

Geek wades in with a post that basically tells Nuwen off for collecting fringe info. I think he's missing the point, and possibly taking it personally; if Suave was indeed a hyperactive 13-year-old, that would be useful information, and as such, I think Nuwen's original enquiry of Suave was fine. However, Geek does make a good point that not all people of the same age are equal.

Hm, good point, I do suspect that I started to take it personally.

Interestingly, it does come across as a bit of a Suave defense, come to think of it. Geek, why did you feel the need to contribute this?

Because I felt that Nuwen was fishing for irrelevant information on a player and that made me suspicious enough to ask her about it.

4. Geek commits to a stance and says Nuwen is scummy for fishing out information that isn't indicative of alignment (here's were Geek becomes scummy - not because he believes I'm scummy, but because he's opportunistically using an alignment neutral action as fuel for a case)

How am I opportunistically using information at this point? I've just been trying to ask you questions on why you asked another player a particular question. If you had actually replied to my initial question instead of "declining" as I recall you putting it (in my eyes, a nice rephrasing for "avoiding the question"), then my suspicion level on you wouldn't be nearly as high.

I'm suspicious about the MrSuave wagon at this point. Yes, his posting style is excitable and annoying, but I don't really see what he's done so scummy at this point to deserve 5 votes even if it is a random voting stage wagon. The only tell I see so far is his avoiding MacavityLock's question for so long.

[MrSuave]

oh, answer to your question, no, they were wrong, so I guess I have no reason to believe it ^_^;;... but there was one theory that was right, but they used it wrong and I remained alive! =D

[xRECKONERx]

MrSuave, please don't use excessive emoticons, because it always makes me more suspicious of you.

[julienvonwolfe]

Interestingly, it does come across as a bit of a Suave defense, come to think of it. Geek, why did you feel the need to contribute this?

Because I felt that Nuwen was fishing for irrelevant information on a player and that made me suspicious enough to ask her about it.

And why did it make you suspicious?

MrSuave, please don't use excessive emoticons, because it always makes me more suspicious of you.

Coaching, much?

[MrSuave]

how do emots cause suspicion? I can understand it can cause annoyance, but suspicion? I think you're pushing it a bit far.

[xRECKONERx]

No, actually, I'm not coaching. I'm just warning him that if he's town, using emoticons when under heavy suspicion don't really do much to alleviate concerns.

[julienvonwolfe]

that seems oddly solicitous of you.

[Nuwen]

How am I opportunistically using information at this point? I've just been trying to ask you questions on why you asked another player a particular question. If you had actually replied to my initial question instead of "declining" as I recall you putting it (in my eyes, a nice rephrasing for "avoiding the question"), then my suspicion level on you wouldn't be nearly as high.

You're still asserting that what I did was more likely to be scum than town, right?

I'm also not comfortable with the wagon on Suave combined with the half-jokes about policy lynching. Reckoner, a good town player's responsibility is to work with what he or she is given. If you can't cope with a posting style, the blame falls on you. Allowing it to influence reads is outright anti-town.