Mini 861: Hellsing Mafia - (Game Over!)

[Chaco]

Under what circumstances later in the game would "allow" Net to use his shot?

Whenever he wants to, at a later time than N1. As I've said, and as you've ignored.

FoS: Amished

[Chaco]

(Side Note: Saber can die, he replaced into other games meaning he only replaced out of this one as a means to cop out because it wasn't going good for him. That's seriously one of the most annoying things I've ever seen.)

[Amished]

Yes, but you don't provide reasoning. You've stated that you think 3 townies are too much to lose in 1 night. I'm not going to go into a stupid argument saying "how do you know so and so is town" but what I am saying is how will we *know* that anybody else is scum later in the game?

The scum are always going to kill a townie. That's irrelevant and part of the game. Why shouldn't we use our vig now to help confirmed Net, get rid of a suspect (like you know, we do with our lynch) and not potentially lose us the game now?

I know our opinions differ, and frankly I don't give a shit. I want you to back up your opinion with more than "I think we should wait" because that's far from convincing. I've used math and a point that it will help us to confirm a "sketchy" claim.

Use some backing, I know we don't agree. FFS is that that hard to understand? I want you to provide evidence to back up your point as I'm *not* just going to trust your judgement or anything. To then FOS over such a weak point shows that you're not paying attention either.

[Chaco]

12-3= 9 (What will happen, regardless of alignment.)
12-4= 8 (Potentially could happen, depending on SK if there is one.)

The second potential, is why I'd rather wait. Because, there is the option of a third party killing role. And if that is the case, we have to assume that all townies could die. So, we'd be down to: 4/5 Townies, 2/3 Scum, 1 Third Party.

I seriously doubt that there is an SK, I'd rather not risk it though.

[Amished]

/headdesk

3 killing roles in a small theme. o.k.

Regardless; we'll take your worst case scenario.

12-4 = 8

With 2 anti-town killing roles, the mafia only have 2 people. 1 SK, 3 scum, 5 townies.

One of the townies is basically confirmed by claiming who they killed (and doing what they were directed). 4 "unknown" townies + 3 scum remain. With 2 killing roles, there's more town power roles, so they can be confirmed town as well (and either clear or condemn somebody). Say they can't condemn anybody, but confirmed somebody else. 2 "unknown" townies + 3 scum. I'll take odds like that to hit scum multiple days in a row.

However, I contest that 3 killing roles (even if one is a 1 shot) is unbalanced.

12 people start:

2 scum, 1 sk, 1 1-shot vig; will assume that they shoot townies every night.

T S SK
9 2 1 D1
8 2 1 (first mislynch)
5 2 1 (all shoot, hit townies)
4 2 1 (2nd mislynch, D2)
2 2 1 (N2, S and SK shoot and hit townies)

2 mislynches and we're in a lylo that needs cooperation with an SK to pull it off. That's not balanced and no competent mod relys on crosskilling to balance their game as smart scum try to avoid crosskills.

I would appreciate it if you would *stop* fear-mongering to stop the Vig from killing.

[Chaco]

Who will he target tonight then? No clear target. Random shots are not good for clearing one person.

[forbiddanlight]

3 killing roles in a small theme. o.k.

Is that too many?

/me gets nervous thinking of other games she's made...

In all seriousness though, I argue that 3 killing roles can be easily balanced.

[Chaco]

So in accordance, there is a balance. But it is risky to lose potentially 4 people in a cycle. That's why he should wait.

[Konowa]

Thought on the matter before I go back and read.

I would rather Net shoot N1 and hit town, then Net shoot any other night and hit town. If he is going to miss, miss early and eliminate the suspect pool. I do not see why this is such a big deal.

[Chaco]

Alright, whatever. I see no one viable for him to shoot at the time. From what I can tell though, Amished wants: Lynch Saber, Vig Looker

[Konowa]

Also.

unvote;

[Amished]

Alright, whatever. I see no one viable for him to shoot at the time. From what I can tell though, Amished wants: Lynch Saber, Vig Looker

Pretty much.

[Doombunny9]

Ok, I see the point Amished is making now and I say we should go for it! We have nothing to lose (well, except a townie but thats expected) and we gain a free clear and a possible dead scum.

Alright, whatever. I see no one viable for him to shoot at the time. From what I can tell though, Amished wants: Lynch Saber, Vig Looker

I'm cool with this.

The only thing that could go wrong with this whole thing is, what if there is no vig and Neto is sctually a SK? His normal killing can be passed off as a vig kill, he's going to look guilty when copped, and the bulletproof could be a specail power he has or he just doesn't want to be killed by maf.

[forbiddanlight]

The only thing that could go wrong with this whole thing is, what if there is no vig and Neto is sctually a SK? His normal killing can be passed off as a vig kill, he's going to look guilty when copped, and the bulletproof could be a specail power he has or he just doesn't want to be killed by maf.

Isn't he one shot?

[Chaco]

Yes, he is.

[Netopalis]

Hey, guys, sorry, I've been rather delinquent...I'll catch up today and make a post.

[Netopalis]

Ok...Yes, I am one-shot. The one-shot only applies to the vig, not to the NK immunity.

I'm not going to use my vig N1. I think that the arguments for me using it are rather weak and flippant - Yeah, sure, we lose a townie. Big whoop. I honestly can't believe I'm hearing that....It makes 10X more sense to use it later when there is more information and when I have a reasonable suspicion of another player. In general, day 1 lynches are crapshoots anyway.

My thoughts on players:
Amished - I think that he is drastically reducing the complexity of this game to absurdity. There is no freaking way that we can kill 3 townies a night and win this game. Sure, the game is balanced. That also means that there's a reasonable chance that non-scum factions will win as well - being balanced doesn't mean a cakewalk for the town.

Furthermore, I don't care much for his attackish nature. He seems rather like a berserker, charging into battle and cleaving at who he can, but I think that some of the attacks are more spurious than others. I particularly think that his case on DB is rather weak - I'm not saying that DB is necessarily town or scum, just that I don't see a very good case against him for a lynch today.

In re: the Sabre lynch: Seems like a reasonable choice, as we'd lynch him if he wasn't being replaced. Let's just save everyone the trouble, especially since his position looks very scummy to me.

I'm getting a fairly strong town-read on Chaco and Forbiddanlight, more of a gut than anything else.

Looker is another decent possibility for the lynch, but given the two, I think I'd rather go ahead and get rid of Saber for convenience's sake.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not going to use my vig N1. I think that the arguments for me using it are rather weak and flippant - Yeah, sure, we lose a townie. Big whoop. I honestly can't believe I'm hearing that....It makes 10X more sense to use it later when there is more information and when I have a reasonable suspicion of another player. In general, day 1 lynches are crapshoots anyway.

If we lynch either saber or doombunny, and they are scum, will you vig the other?

[Netopalis]

In that case I might make an exception, because I would have a decent reason for using it. While I think the link is tenuous, it would be extremely valuable to catch scum earlier. I'd have to think hard about it....That being said, I'd rather not say in thread definitely who and when I'm targeting, just in case of a mafia doctor.

[forbiddanlight]

In that case I might make an exception, because I would have a decent reason for using it. While I think the link is tenuous, it would be extremely valuable to catch scum earlier. I'd have to think hard about it....That being said, I'd rather not say in thread definitely who and when I'm targeting, just in case of a mafia doctor.

I...guess that's understandable.

[kikuchiyo]

Unvote

Seems like a reasonable claim. Furthers my belief that we should not be lynching Saber without a claim. I think its odd that Net is hesitant to shoot early, but willing to carry through the Saber lynch without a claim. It would basically be akin to a day-vig shot in that regard, so the thought process seems a bit incongruent.

Mod: Requesting replacement for Saberwolf. If this requires a deadline extension then I request that as well.

Working on it.

The main push against Saber/Doom was the implication that they were scum together. With Doom's claim, it seems as though it would be logical fallacy to continue pursuing Saber based on this. Understandably, the buddying may have been mutual, but my interpretation was that Doom was more guilty in the buddying department and I was willing to lynch DB as scum buddying to scum, or scum buddying to town. As it stands, I think Doom's claim weakens the case on Saber. I would much rather get a replacements take on the game in the player slot, than simply lynch them and hope they are not a power role. According to the flavor of this game, I would assume there are some fantastic powers on both sides of the coin.

[forbiddanlight]

Mod: Requesting replacement for Saberwolf. If this requires a deadline extension then I request that as well.

Saber was replaced by SSK

No he wasn't. Archon was.

[Amished]

Uhh, DB claimed btw, I would hope not without a counter claim...

[Shotty to the Body]

Mod: Requesting replacement for Saberwolf. If this requires a deadline extension then I request that as well.

Saber was replaced by SSK

Archon was replaced by SSK, Saber is unreplaced as of yet.

[forbiddanlight]

Archon was replaced by SSK, Saber is unreplaced as of yet.

Oops.