Mini 848 - Second String Muppets Mafia - Game Over.

[MonkeyMan576]

Clarification: PR means Power Role.
I'm clearly town aligned.
I'm not answering to any other role related question since with those clarification my last post should be clear enough for now.

I have other comments at this point but I'm choosing to let this game stew for 24 more hours.

How are you "clearly town aligned?"

Doese claiming power role automatically mean you are telling the truth? Why are you afraid of people asking questions, do you have something to hide?

FOS: springlullaby

I believe that Spring is saying there is no ambiguity in her alignment, but from her initial post we can assume her role is somewhat unusual and she is possibly at issue on how exactly to use it. Take it as an explanation that something odd may happen and she may be at the cause. We can take it as scum setting something up from the get go, or town warning us of a consequence of her actions to help avoid confusion later.

Take it as scummy, or take it as neutral. Ask Spring about something else, but I think we've heard enough about the role.

She's the one that brought it up. It seems disingenuine to softclaim and then criticize those that are suspicious. I'm not calling for her lynch, or asking for more role info, just an explanation of her actions.

[Ectomancer]

I'm feeling good about the Monkey-wagon. Ecto's catch of being cautious with respect to SL while not being cautious with respect to Jordan is a good one.

However, the following is ridiculous:

P.S. - I believe that posting under your alt repeatedly in this game is your method of making it difficult to analyze and follow the thread of your posts. You might make an actual effort at logging in under the name you are playing this game under.

That's a massive stretch. Occam's Razor suggests that not re-logging in under the correct name is an easy and innocent mistake to make. That is, I can't read it as anything but null and it tweaks my scum-dar a bit by saying it's not null.

I believe that the first time was an honest accident. I believe that subsequent incidents are deliberate sloppiness once he realized the effect it would have.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm feeling good about the Monkey-wagon. Ecto's catch of being cautious with respect to SL while not being cautious with respect to Jordan is a good one.

However, the following is ridiculous:

P.S. - I believe that posting under your alt repeatedly in this game is your method of making it difficult to analyze and follow the thread of your posts. You might make an actual effort at logging in under the name you are playing this game under.

That's a massive stretch. Occam's Razor suggests that not re-logging in under the correct name is an easy and innocent mistake to make. That is, I can't read it as anything but null and it tweaks my scum-dar a bit by saying it's not null.

I believe that the first time was an honest accident. I believe that subsequent incidents are deliberate sloppiness once he realized the effect it would have.

That's a pretty strong accusation. I would rather my alt not be the focus of discussion, because it is not intentional. It seems to me that you are trying to focus attention off of your own actual in game behavior.

[~Jordan`]

I'm feeling good about the Monkey-wagon. Ecto's catch of being cautious with respect to SL while not being cautious with respect to Jordan is a good one.

However, the following is ridiculous:

P.S. - I believe that posting under your alt repeatedly in this game is your method of making it difficult to analyze and follow the thread of your posts. You might make an actual effort at logging in under the name you are playing this game under.

That's a massive stretch. Occam's Razor suggests that not re-logging in under the correct name is an easy and innocent mistake to make. That is, I can't read it as anything but null and it tweaks my scum-dar a bit by saying it's not null.

I believe that the first time was an honest accident. I believe that subsequent incidents are deliberate sloppiness once he realized the effect it would have.

That's a pretty strong accusation. I would rather my alt not be the focus of discussion, because it is not intentional. It seems to me that you are trying to focus attention off of your own actual in game behavior.

and now your doing the exact same thing. Hypocrisy.

I'm going to do a quick reread now.

[MonkeyMan576]

This is getting rediculous. Ecto and Jordan have been defending each other and attacking in tandem the entire day.

[Ectomancer]

Heh, well I've seen no discussion of my in-game behavior, so it would be rather difficult to take discussion off of it hey? It was not I that brought your alt into the game in the first place. You logged it in and posted. At the very least, by my bringing up the topic, you might make a real effort to login under one name now mightn't you?

I didn't see Spring criticize anyone after the softclaim. She said she wouldn't answer anymore role related questions. I don't see how you can say asking her why she softclaimed isn't pursuing the role itself when it is clear that the function of the role itself is what made her mention it in the first place.

[MonkeyMan576]

Heh, well I've seen no discussion of my in-game behavior, so it would be rather difficult to take discussion off of it hey? It was not I that brought your alt into the game in the first place. You logged it in and posted. At the very least, by my bringing up the topic, you might make a real effort to login under one name now mightn't you?

I didn't see Spring criticize anyone after the softclaim. She said she wouldn't answer anymore role related questions. I don't see how you can say asking her why she softclaimed isn't pursuing the role itself when it is clear that the function of the role itself is what made her mention it in the first place.

Except no one was asking any more role related questions, and it seems the statement was more like an excuse not to answer any kind of questions. It's pretty easy to group nearly any kind of question into role-related if you are determined to do so. I'm supspicious of those that try to restrict scum hunting.

[Ectomancer]

Wait, I thought you were the guy who watched for exaggeration? Spring gave no suspicions, and saying that her statement that she wouldn't answer any role related questions was an excuse for her not to answer any questions is an exaggeration.
I'm the one who asked you to stay away from the softclaim, and I haven't based any suspicions on you upon it. The fact that I

am

suspicious of you for other reasons is a motivating factor in herding you away from softclaim questions as I think it is best left alone. That doesn't mean you can't ask her, for example, about my case on you.

[Ectomancer]

This is getting rediculous. Ecto and Jordan have been defending each other and attacking in tandem the entire day.

While functionally you may see no difference, attacking your attacks on Jordan is not the same as defending Jordan. The closest I have come to defending Jordan is to say that as a newer player he is more likely to be inclined to breadcrumb or 'softclaim' a role, meaning his action there at worst would be a null tell, if indeed it was a softclaim at all.

[MonkeyMan576]

This is getting rediculous. Ecto and Jordan have been defending each other and attacking in tandem the entire day.

While functionally you may see no difference, attacking your attacks on Jordan is not the same as defending Jordan. The closest I have come to defending Jordan is to say that as a newer player he is more likely to be inclined to breadcrumb or 'softclaim' a role, meaning his action there at worst would be a null tell, if indeed it was a softclaim at all.

Even if you are not heavily defending Jordan, what you have defended him on, what he has defended you on, your cooperative attacks, your failure to defend an entire case, and the poor logic of your attacks lend me to believe that you are scumbuddies.

[Kirbyoshi]

While functionally you may see no difference, attacking your attacks on Jordan is not the same as defending Jordan.

Functionally

there is no difference, and functionality is what really matters, imo. Maybe you're being a little too careful that you don't defend him directly, but how is that less scummy than defending him indirectly?

[Ectomancer]

While functionally you may see no difference, attacking your attacks on Jordan is not the same as defending Jordan.

Functionally

there is no difference, and functionality is what really matters, imo. Maybe you're being a little too careful that you don't defend him directly, but how is that less scummy than defending him indirectly?

Excuse me? Are you trying to say that attacking Monkey through his case points on Jordan is scummy and that by doing so, you can only be defending Jordan and in a scummy manner at that? You are stretching as far as you can on that one, both of you.

[MonkeyMan576]

While functionally you may see no difference, attacking your attacks on Jordan is not the same as defending Jordan.

Functionally

there is no difference, and functionality is what really matters, imo. Maybe you're being a little too careful that you don't defend him directly, but how is that less scummy than defending him indirectly?

Excuse me? Are you trying to say that attacking Monkey through his case points on Jordan is scummy and that by doing so, you can only be defending Jordan and in a scummy manner at that? You are stretching as far as you can on that one, both of you.

What I'm saying(I can't speak for Kirb) is that if Jordan is scum, he may have made a rookie mistake by fingering Kirb and I, two people he knew were town(in a hypothetical Jordan-scum scenario) and that had already voted for him. Furthermore, the undeniable connections between you and Jordan at this point gives the town the possibility to catch two scum right off the bat, wheras the case against Kirb and I is very weak.

[Ectomancer]

I'm feeling good about the Monkey-wagon. Ecto's catch of being cautious with respect to SL while not being cautious with respect to Jordan is a good one.

However, the following is ridiculous:

P.S. - I believe that posting under your alt repeatedly in this game is your method of making it difficult to analyze and follow the thread of your posts. You might make an actual effort at logging in under the name you are playing this game under.

That's a massive stretch. Occam's Razor suggests that not re-logging in under the correct name is an easy and innocent mistake to make. That is, I can't read it as anything but null and it tweaks my scum-dar a bit by saying it's not null.

I don't have a double standard. When I suggested caution, I was explaining my overall approach, not a case by case basis. I'm more aggressive on Jordan because I find him scummier. The whole case against me seems to be based on faulty psychoanalysis.

I think it can be shown that you had no stated case against Jordan, just a vote until

he listed you as one of the possible scum on his wagon.

Now, are you more aggressive because you found him scummier, or because you are engaged in OMGUS? Let's analyze your "case" because it is so flimsy that it is clearly an attempt to get back at Jordan.

That being said, I don't think Jordan has helped his cause since the wagon started. Laying hints to his role in his random vote. Trying to defend future behavior by saying he's a "spammer". Then what I feel is an OMGUS, and (so far) pointing fingers without providing examples. Wagoning is a perfectly valid early game strategy, even without an extensive case, as it can be useful in
provoking reactions and catching scum, but, as said above, I think there are plenty of reasons to be suspicious of Jordan at this point.

1: "laying hints to his role" - show me where that became something that town doesn't do.
2: Trying to defend his future behavior by saying he's a spammer. - In point of fact, it wasn't future behavior he was defending, it was his pre-game chatter. Nice of you to twist his answer to make him look bad if we ignored the fact that he was explaining his earlier behavior.
3: It was pointed out to you that there is no OMGUS, but you really tried to make it out to be one.

I can't tell if you are trying to attack Jordan or defend yourself with the waguns R gud statement at the end there. If defending yourself, I don't know why you are knocking down a strawman that nobody put up.

Pretty clearly evident that you were simply trying to scrape as much mud as you could to throw at Jordan as a result of being named as one of the potential scum on his wagon.

[Ectomancer]

While functionally you may see no difference, attacking your attacks on Jordan is not the same as defending Jordan.

Functionally

there is no difference, and functionality is what really matters, imo. Maybe you're being a little too careful that you don't defend him directly, but how is that less scummy than defending him indirectly?

Excuse me? Are you trying to say that attacking Monkey through his case points on Jordan is scummy and that by doing so, you can only be defending Jordan and in a scummy manner at that? You are stretching as far as you can on that one, both of you.

What I'm saying(I can't speak for Kirb) is that if Jordan is scum, he may have made a rookie mistake by fingering Kirb and I, two people he knew were town(in a hypothetical Jordan-scum scenario) and that had already voted for him. Furthermore, the undeniable connections between you and Jordan at this point gives the town the possibility to catch two scum right off the bat, wheras the case against Kirb and I is very weak.

Dodging.
That's a lot of gibberish that doesn't address the point and makes up some new things while at it. How does that even begin to address whether attacking a point in someone's case against another player is scummy? . Where did you even come close to saying that Jordan is possibly newbie scum and as newbie scum would be more likely to pick two town players, you and Kirby? (I can point to MD to demonstrate where he was already warned about avoiding casting suspicion on his partners) Where have you shown where Jordan is more likely be newbie scum than newbie town to even begin looking for scum buddies? And in fact, isn't this scum buddy accusation nothing more than OMGUS distraction to keep from answering to your inconsistent behavior?

Now, you may count this as a defense if you like, but I'll point out yet again that what I've done is dispell the validity of your attacks and explain where the scummy motivations in your actions are evident. An Ecto/Jordan connection, other than that fact, is desperate fabrication on your part.

[Ectomancer]

Saw you just a few minutes ago Kirby, where'd you go? I was looking for your answer, not Monkey's answer for you. I would also like to hear your thoughts on the case on Monkey. You need to take a stance on it, even if you believe its intention solely to be a defense of Jordan. Also, if you believe Elvis to be misdirecting, what do you think of Monkey's omgus and scum buddy accusations?

[MonkeyMan576]

Dodging.
That's a lot of gibberish that doesn't address the point and makes up some new things while at it. How does that even begin to address whether attacking a point in someone's case against another player is scummy? . Where did you even come close to saying that Jordan is possibly newbie scum and as newbie scum would be more likely to pick two town players, you and Kirby? (I can point to MD to demonstrate where he was already warned about avoiding casting suspicion on his partners) Where have you shown where Jordan is more likely be newbie scum than newbie town to even begin looking for scum buddies? And in fact, isn't this scum buddy accusation nothing more than OMGUS distraction to keep from answering to your inconsistent behavior?

Now, you may count this as a defense if you like, but I'll point out yet again that what I've done is dispell the validity of your attacks and explain where the scummy motivations in your actions are evident. An Ecto/Jordan connection, other than that fact, is desperate fabrication on your part.

I'm not dodging anything, and it's not making things up. It's called case building. And what you're doing is strawmanning. You're failing to argue against my entire case and trying to nitpick against one or two parts of it in case someone wants to join your wagon. My case is hardly desperate or fabrication, every time you defend Jordan, especially in your strawmanning, weak argument fashion, you are digging yourself a deeper hole.

As far as the newbie scum argument, I've already presented my case against him, and the combined scumminess of you and him put together strengthens my case.

[Eldritch Lord]

Confirming Replacement

It's good to be part of the game, and it appears things here are heating up quickly.

Posting on an alt is irresponsible.

Vote: MonkeyMan576

You seem very eager to make connections between two scum right off the bat, while not a bad strategy, its certainly a bold one. I find that neither Jordan or Ecto look particularly scummy this game. I'd like to hear more about your scum-pair.

[Ectomancer]

Post 88 dismantles your entire case against Jordan, so you fail at using that as an excuse. That was 2 hours before you made that reply, so you chose to ignore it, or defend against the dismantling, likely because trying to argue will just make it that much clearer as to how weakly you were grasping.
In addition, I don't need to show how everything you've written is scummy, just that you are applying inconsistent rules when deciding what you will pursue and what you will not,

and

(more importantly), that how and what you are pursuing is more attributable to a scum motivation than to a town motivation, something you still have not explained to satisfaction and are avoiding with your OMGUS case presented

after

Jordan listed you as suspicious and your sudden OMGUS case on me

after

I voted for you.

As far as the newbie scum argument, I've already presented my case against him, and the combined scumminess of you and him put together strengthens my case.

Listen Slick Willy, you just keep squirming.

This:

What I'm saying(I can't speak for Kirb) is that if Jordan is scum, he may have made a rookie mistake by fingering Kirb and I, two people he knew were town(in a hypothetical Jordan-scum scenario) and that had already voted for him. Furthermore, the undeniable connections between you and Jordan at this point gives the town the possibility to catch two scum right off the bat, wheras the case against Kirb and I is very weak.

Is nothing like this:

That being said, I don't think Jordan has helped his cause since the wagon started. Laying hints to his role in his random vote. Trying to defend future behavior by saying he's a "spammer". Then what I feel is an OMGUS, and (so far) pointing fingers without providing examples. Wagoning is a perfectly valid early game strategy, even without an extensive case, as it can be useful in
provoking reactions and catching scum, but, as said above, I think there are plenty of reasons to be suspicious of Jordan at this point.

You are evolving your story and trying to make it seem as though you are simply expanding on what you said earlier. You aren't. This idea of Jordan being rookie scum too stupid to point out anyone other than town was definitely not put forth by you until just recently. As stated earlier, it can be linked to where Jordan was advised against avoiding his scum partners days prior to this game, so had you put forth this theory back then, it would have been disputed as false.

Now I've lined up your points and knocked them all down. I'd like to see you attempt the same by addressing the points themselves and not complaining about being ganged up on.

[Snix]

Snix, I challenge you to explain the logic that would dictate that a town player ignore a universally confusing statement and in the next moment take a scummy poke at a possible town softclaim. His lack of caution surrounding the softclaim utterly dispels the notion that he is cautious by nature, which is the excuse he gave for ignoring Spring.

I cannot explain another's actions in the least bit. I can only explain how I feel about it, and personally it seems like a null tell. SL had a confusing post about her roll and others had already asked for clarification. The entire town does not need to restate the same obvious thing.

Now as for my strong logic:

1. You seem intent on monopolising this conversation in a monkey bash that still does not impress me. It has no sure footing and still seems to be grasping at straws.
2. You are defending Jordan, no matter how you put it. The fact that you deny it just makes it clearer that there is a connection you don't want seen.
3. Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced? Could be.

Answer me this; Who do you think are Monkey's scum buddies at this point? Do you think Jordan could be scum?

[elvis_knits]

Voting monkeyman for posting under an alt is RIDICULOUS.

I had to retire my alt because I sucked at remembering who I was logged in as, and I even put my alt on the mafurtigers skin. And I still made mistakes. To suggest that someone would deliberately post as an alt to avoid detection is ridiculous. You'd have to think that we're too stupid to figure out who the alt is (when he told us who he was, and both screennames have monkey in them!), or that we'll forget, or that monkeyman was saying something so inflamatory that he didn't want it picked up with the rest of his posts in a later iso read. It's just so... how shall I say this... RIDICULOUS.

Ecto and eldritch... have you ever seen someone do that? Post under an alt with some dastradly purpose? If so, let me know where. If I'm wrong, I'm happy to learn something new.

[Eldritch Lord]

What case do you have against Jordan, Snix?

It seems like your reasoning against Ecto hinges on Jordan's scumminess. I fail to see anything that really jumps out as a scumtell from Jordan.

[Eldritch Lord]

Voting monkeyman for posting under an alt is RIDICULOUS.

That's not why I'm voting for him.

Words in italics have no bearing on my judgments, they're personal comments regarding professionalism or lack thereof. I'll use them if someone starts getting way too angry over a game or particular topic.

I'm voting for him because I fail to see the case against Jordan and Ecto and he's pushing it so hard.

[Snix]

What case do you have against Jordan, Snix?

It seems like your reasoning against Ecto hinges on Jordan's scumminess. I fail to see anything that really jumps out as a scumtell from Jordan.

Almost the exact opposite sir, hence my vote on Ecto and not Jordan. Jordan would have passed under my Radar if Ecto and ML hadn't jumped on Monkey for something that seemed near harmless. The wagon on Jordan was already rolling, pointing out something that seems off in an overview (IE Monkey's statement that Jordan saying that monkey is weird is OMGUS when he a. already had a vote on Jordan and b. didn't really push for jordan's lynch anymore than he had.) is a null tell.

Ecto has my vote because Ecto seems scummy, Jordan seems scummy through Ecto's actions.

[Eldritch Lord]

But you're still making the assumption that Jordan is scum with Ecto, if Ecto swooped down Superman-style to save Jordan and Jordan was not scum, that would make Ecto either a very kind scum or a proactive town.

So if your logic is based on the assumption that Ecto is saving a scumbuddy, then it makes more sense to vote for Jordan.

If Ecto is scum and Jordan is scum, your case makes sense.
If Ecto is scum and Jordan is not, then your case does not make sense.
If Ecto is town and Jordan is scum, then you are voting against town.
If Ecto is town and Jordan is town, then your case does not make sense.

With those options, doesn't it make more sense to vote for Jordan? 2/4 will grab scum if you vote Jordan rather than 1/4 if you vote for Ecto, given your reasoning against Ecto.