Mini 848 - Second String Muppets Mafia - Game Over.

MacavityLock · Post Post #50 (ISO) » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:32 am

Vote: MonkeyMan

. Jordan is directly answering a question about the people on his wagon. That's not OMGUS. I agree that Jordan should add more on why you and Kirby are "strange", but your calling this OMGUS is scummy.

MonkeyMan576 · Post Post #51 (ISO) » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:49 am

MacavityLock wrote:
Vote: MonkeyMan
. Jordan is directly answering a question about the people on his wagon. That's not OMGUS. I agree that Jordan should add more on why you and Kirby are "strange", but your calling this OMGUS is scummy.

Just because you're answering a question doesn't mean it obsolves you of having to provide examples. And I don't think the question was directed on the wagonee so much as those who might be less biased.

elvis_knits · Post Post #52 (ISO) » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:08 pm

vote ectomancer

for not using his vote yet.

I don't think jordan's vote on ecto was bad, which seems the original thing people jumped on, but some of the things he's said since need clarifying for me.

~Jordan` wrote: Furthermore, the bad luck thing was out of context and was about something out of thread.

What was it about? And why would you tell us if it had nothing to do with the game?

I'm a habitual spammer...

It looks like you just joined MS... so how are you a habitual anything? Are you an alt?

Also, what don't you like about kirbyoshi?

I'm not sure what is going on with springlullaby. I took PR to mean post restriction in this context. But I guess I will wait for confirmation about that. Not sure what to say about whether she should use the PR to get protown effects or not, since we won't know what she's talking about. I guess we have to leave that up to her. I've seen PR's be real and be faked. My hope is that if it is faked we will be able to notice an inconsistency or something somewhere along the way.

Ectomancer · Post Post #53 (ISO) » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:19 pm

MonkeyMan576 wrote:
MacavityLock wrote:
Vote: MonkeyMan
. Jordan is directly answering a question about the people on his wagon. That's not OMGUS. I agree that Jordan should add more on why you and Kirby are "strange", but your calling this OMGUS is scummy.
Just because you're answering a question doesn't mean it obsolves you of having to provide examples. And I don't think the question was directed on the wagonee so much as those who might be less biased.

You have the right to actively defend yourself by demanding an explanation for 'strange', but MCL is right, it wasn't OMGUS. His basis for vote on you also has merit as you seem to be making Jordan's assessment of you out to be a scummy attack, when it was a response to a direct question. That is a bit of a derived method of building a case that a wagon of 5 would seem to demand.

MonkeyMan576 · Post Post #54 (ISO) » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:55 pm

Ectomancer wrote:
MonkeyMan576 wrote:
MacavityLock wrote:
Vote: MonkeyMan
. Jordan is directly answering a question about the people on his wagon. That's not OMGUS. I agree that Jordan should add more on why you and Kirby are "strange", but your calling this OMGUS is scummy.
Just because you're answering a question doesn't mean it obsolves you of having to provide examples. And I don't think the question was directed on the wagonee so much as those who might be less biased.
You have the right to actively defend yourself by demanding an explanation for 'strange', but MCL is right, it wasn't OMGUS. His basis for vote on you also has merit as you seem to be making Jordan's assessment of you out to be a scummy attack, when it was a response to a direct question. That is a bit of a derived method of building a case that a wagon of 5 would seem to demand.

I voted early in the wagon pretty much for the sole purposes of wagoning and eliciting a responce. The wagon wasn't at 5 when I voted.

That being said, I don't think Jordan has helped his cause since the wagon started. Laying hints to his role in his random vote. Trying to defend future behavior by saying he's a "spammer". Then what I feel is an OMGUS, and (so far) pointing fingers without providing examples. Wagoning is a perfectly valid early game strategy, even without an extensive case, as it can be useful in
provoking reactions and catching scum, but, as said above, I think there are plenty of reasons to be suspicious of Jordan at this point.

Ectomancer · Post Post #55 (ISO) » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:22 pm

MonkeyMan576 wrote:Laying hints to his role in his random vote.

Alright, I want to cut Jordan out of this portion of the conversation, so Jordan, don't even address this, let proxies speak. Explain this point of the several you are building against Jordan Monkey. Here is that quote:

~Jordan` wrote:
vote Ectomancer

what're you rushing for? Are you antsy in fear of the scum we get to put into a paper bag and slam against a wall tonite? YOU MAFIA SCUMMM!

A little too strong?

Now why should I not believe you are rolefishing by sneaking this accusation into the mix? By including it, you get Jordan to respond one way or another, thus giving you information to read off of, much like town does to get info to lynch scum.
I've seen town lay hints to roles in proportion to their numbers, so I don't see how laying a hint would be alignment indicative.
I've also seen Jordan appear fairly recently on the site, and he appears to be a legitimate new player, and I believe I've seen new players more prone to things like 'breadcrumbs'.

Let's assume that you are right, and he breadcrumbed a role with his inclusion of the word 'tonite'. So what?
So you are cautious enough not to inquire into Spring's clear as mud statement, but not cautious enough to know better than to poke around what could be a newbie town PR breadcrumb? I don't buy that.

vote Monkey

MonkeySudo · Post Post #56 (ISO) » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:29 pm

Ectomancer wrote:
MonkeyMan576 wrote:Laying hints to his role in his random vote.
Alright, I want to cut Jordan out of this portion of the conversation, so Jordan, don't even address this, let proxies speak. Explain this point of the several you are building against Jordan Monkey. Here is that quote:

~Jordan` wrote:
vote Ectomancer

what're you rushing for? Are you antsy in fear of the scum we get to put into a paper bag and slam against a wall tonite? YOU MAFIA SCUMMM!

A little too strong?
Now why should I not believe you are rolefishing by sneaking this accusation into the mix? By including it, you get Jordan to respond one way or another, thus giving you information to read off of, much like town does to get info to lynch scum.
I've seen town lay hints to roles in proportion to their numbers, so I don't see how laying a hint would be alignment indicative.
I've also seen Jordan appear fairly recently on the site, and he appears to be a legitimate new player, and I believe I've seen new players more prone to things like 'breadcrumbs'.

Let's assume that you are right, and he breadcrumbed a role with his inclusion of the word 'tonite'. So what?
So you are cautious enough not to inquire into Spring's clear as mud statement, but not cautious enough to know better than to poke around what could be a newbie town PR breadcrumb? I don't buy that.

vote Monkey

That's not the post I was referring to, I was referring to his post where he said "I have no luck", I figured he was referring to his role.

Aside from that, you're being quite nitpicky as to what I should and shouldn't be responding to. it's quite easy to build a "case" against someone regarding every little thing you think they should or shouldn't be saying. You are ignoring the other parts of my case as well.

MonkeyMan576 · Post Post #57 (ISO) » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:31 pm

Kirbyoshi · Post Post #58 (ISO) » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:03 pm

Jordan, what exactly do you have against me? Other than, of course, simple, maybe subliminal, OMGUS. If you actually stated your case against me, it would make it much easier for me to explain why you are wrong

And to whoever asked me why I didn't comment on SL's "claim," I don't think there's much to comment on. If her PR (which I take to mean Power Role, but I could be wrong) has a condition for her to be sided with either town or scum, and we don't know concretely which side she's going to choose, isn't that much like how each of us is now, that no one knows for sure what side any given player is on? In addition, I think it is more important, at least on D1, to lynch scum than Indies; correct me if I'm wrong.

Snix · Post Post #59 (ISO) » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:50 pm

FOS: Jordan

He seems to post a lot without much contribution or (in later pages) defense.

He does very little to dissuade the wagon on him but it jumps quickly on to Monkey, headed by Macavitylock and backed up by ecto. Neither of which have very strong logic, soo..

Vote: Ectomancer

Monkey doesn't seem scum to me, he asks a few questions, over-reacts a little, and people jump on him. It seems like all he wanted was a little more substance to jordan's overview.

springlullaby · Post Post #60 (ISO) » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:26 pm

Clarification: PR means Power Role.
I'm clearly town aligned.
I'm not answering to any other role related question since with those clarification my last post should be clear enough for now.

I have other comments at this point but I'm choosing to let this game stew for 24 more hours.

~Jordan` · Post Post #61 (ISO) » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:23 pm

Kirbyoshi wrote:Jordan, what exactly do you have against me? Other than, of course, simple, maybe subliminal, OMGUS. If you actually stated your case against me, it would make it much easier for me to explain why you are wrong

And to whoever asked me why I didn't comment on SL's "claim," I don't think there's much to comment on. If her PR (which I take to mean Power Role, but I could be wrong) has a condition for her to be sided with either town or scum, and we don't know concretely which side she's going to choose, isn't that much like how each of us is now, that no one knows for sure what side any given player is on? In addition, I think it is more important, at least on D1, to lynch scum than Indies; correct me if I'm wrong.

I just answered the question; it just seems you and the other bandwagoned w/o seeming to believe I am mafia. I answered the question to defend myself, and the best way I could.

But still noting...it did trigger something that gave us action, and I will not regret it.

Ectomancer · Post Post #62 (ISO) » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:05 am

MonkeySudo wrote:That's not the post I was referring to, I was referring to his post where he said "I have no luck", I figured he was referring to his role.

Aside from that, you're being quite nitpicky as to what I should and shouldn't be responding to. it's quite easy to build a "case" against someone regarding every little thing you think they should or shouldn't be saying. You are ignoring the other parts of my case as well.

Make up your mind. Did he do it doing his /confirm or during his random vote as you stated previously? You look to be scrambling now.

Inconsistency is a hallmark of scum. You ignored Spring's statement that should not have been ignored, and are digging at what you believe to be a softclaim that should have been left alone. Such inconsistencies have led me to catch scum when scum wasn't even aware that they had done such a thing.
I didn't ignore your other points, and in fact mentioned myself that you mentioned 'several' of them. The only way that would be relevant is if I was trying to dismiss the case on Jordan completely, I have not yet done that. I'm focusing on the point you are making that illustrates that you are a scumbag.

Snix, I challenge you to explain the logic that would dictate that a town player ignore a universally confusing statement and in the next moment take a scummy poke at a possible town softclaim. His lack of caution surrounding the softclaim utterly dispels the notion that he is cautious by nature, which is the excuse he gave for ignoring Spring.

MonkeyMan576 wrote:
MacavityLock wrote:SL, you need to clarify like now. Does PR mean post restriction or power role? Do you have an anti-town role or anti-town power?

Kirby and Monkey, why did you not comment on SL and her softclaim?
Because I take a cautious approach to making attacks early in day 1. I find exaggerating what happens early in the day often leads to mislynches. Also I've been trying to determine the motives for the softclaim, the whole scenario seems a little strange to me.

Look right here. He is reluctant to touch Spring's softclaim because he's trying to determine the motives for it. Really? Then what makes Jordan's any different?

Monkey wasn't sure that it was a softclaim and wanted Jordan's response to gauge whether he did or not

. Wait a second, I thought he was cautious and tries to figure these things out? And it isn't as though the "bad luck" topic wasn't already broached to Jordan by me and responded to by him. Yet "cautious" Monkey needs to route out a softclaim? I thought he found that exaggeration leads to mislynches? Calling Jordan's first statement a softclaim isn't an exaggeration?

Monkey needs to be lynched.

Snix, you may now present the "very strong logic" of your own.

P.S. - I believe that posting under your alt repeatedly in this game is your method of making it difficult to analyze and follow the thread of your posts. You might make an actual effort at logging in under the name you are playing this game under.

MonkeyMan576 · Post Post #63 (ISO) » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:02 am

Ectomancer wrote: Look right here. He is reluctant to touch Spring's softclaim because he's trying to determine the motives for it. Really? Then what makes Jordan's any different?
Monkey wasn't sure that it was a softclaim and wanted Jordan's response to gauge whether he did or not
. Wait a second, I thought he was cautious and tries to figure these things out? And it isn't as though the "bad luck" topic wasn't already broached to Jordan by me and responded to by him. Yet "cautious" Monkey needs to route out a softclaim? I thought he found that exaggeration leads to mislynches? Calling Jordan's first statement a softclaim isn't an exaggeration?

Monkey needs to be lynched.

Ecto is clearly reaching here and upset that he has been connected to Jordan. He is not defending himself, but choosing to attack me with what is essentially a psychoanalytical case, not any case based in strong logic. Note that he completely ignores the Jordan wagon, suggesting that his "case" on me is stronger than what's already been presented against Jordan, which is based on several observations, not just a weak psychoanalytical presumption. I never said I was cautious in everything, I said it was important to balance observation and attack, rather than just recklessly attack, especially once you have been targeted(which is essentially what Ecto is doing).

~Jordan` · Post Post #64 (ISO) » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:24 am

are there multiple monkies in this game?

MonkeySudo · Post Post #65 (ISO) » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:30 am

I already explained, MonkeySudo is my alt for modding Munchkin. I created it because at the time I was planning on co-modding with Sudo_Nym and we both needed mod access. There's nothing insidious about it and I'm not trying to confuse anyone, in fact since Sudo won't be helping as planned I won't be using the alt at all after a few weeks when the current games are over.

Kirbyoshi · Post Post #66 (ISO) » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:37 am

elvis wrote:
vote ectomancer
for not using his vote yet.

I find this scummy. You vote for ecto without building a case against him, then go on to talk about Jordan and SL, as if trying to misdirect.

Since I figure Jordan's "bad luck" post could just as possibly be talking about a vanilla role as a scum role, and because elvis tried to misdirect, I will...

Unvote ~Jordan`, Vote: elvis_knits

MonkeyMan576 · Post Post #67 (ISO) » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:49 am

springlullaby wrote:Clarification: PR means Power Role.
I'm clearly town aligned.
I'm not answering to any other role related question since with those clarification my last post should be clear enough for now.

I have other comments at this point but I'm choosing to let this game stew for 24 more hours.

How are you "clearly town aligned?"

Doese claiming power role automatically mean you are telling the truth? Why are you afraid of people asking questions, do you have something to hide?

FOS: springlullaby

elvis_knits · Post Post #68 (ISO) » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:51 am

Kirbyoshi, where is the misdirection?

I don't really think Jordan or SL are scum, so that's why I didn't vote them. I voted ecto because he was present and active in the game without using his vote. That's like shooting blanks. It makes me think his scum hunting is insincere.

I don't think there is anything wrong with jordan's vote on ecto, which was what most people voted jordan for. But I was confused as to a few things Jordan said. The "I have bad luck" thing. I find it hard to believe it had nothing to do with the game.

And the SL stuff needed to be addressed, even though it wasn't part a case/attack.

Zorblag · Post Post #69 (ISO) » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:57 am

Mod Note: As of now Eldritch Lord replaces The Incredible Hulk

Vote Count 1.2

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

~Jordan`: 4: springlullaby (2), MonkeyMan576 (4), ekiM (5), Malcolm (6)
MonkeyMan576: 2: MacavityLock (7), Ectomancer (9)
Ectomancer: 2: elvis_knits (8), Snix (10)
elvis_knits: 1: Kirbyoshi (11)

Not Voting: Debonair Danny DiPietro, Eldritch Lord, ~Jordan`

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Currently ~Jordan` would be lynched at deadline. Deadline is 1:00 PM EDT/10 AM PDT on Wednesday, October 7th 2009.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

ekiM · Post Post #70 (ISO) » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:51 am

Welcome, Eldritch Lord.

I think Jordan is YAVI. Get playing, dude.

unvote

.

People should NOT be fishing for more info from SL.

MonkeyMan576 wrote:
MacavityLock wrote:
Vote: MonkeyMan
. Jordan is directly answering a question about the people on his wagon. That's not OMGUS. I agree that Jordan should add more on why you and Kirby are "strange", but your calling this OMGUS is scummy.
Just because you're answering a question doesn't mean it obsolves you of having to provide examples. And I don't think the question was directed on the wagonee so much as those who might be less biased.

Implausible. The question was "You have 5 votes on you Jordan. Do you believe that scum is on the wagon? Which players are the most likely candidates?".

MonkeyMan576 wrote:
Ectomancer wrote:
Look right here. He is reluctant to touch Spring's softclaim because he's trying to determine the motives for it. Really? Then what makes Jordan's any different?
Monkey wasn't sure that it was a softclaim and wanted Jordan's response to gauge whether he did or not
. Wait a second, I thought he was cautious and tries to figure these things out? And it isn't as though the "bad luck" topic wasn't already broached to Jordan by me and responded to by him. Yet "cautious" Monkey needs to route out a softclaim? I thought he found that exaggeration leads to mislynches? Calling Jordan's first statement a softclaim isn't an exaggeration?

Monkey needs to be lynched.

Ecto is clearly reaching here and upset that he has been connected to Jordan. He is not defending himself, but choosing to attack me with what is essentially a psychoanalytical case, not any case based in strong logic. Note that he completely ignores the Jordan wagon, suggesting that his "case" on me is stronger than what's already been presented against Jordan, which is based on several observations, not just a weak psychoanalytical presumption. I never said I was cautious in everything, I said it was important to balance observation and attack, rather than just recklessly attack, especially once you have been targeted(which is essentially what Ecto is doing).

This is just terrible. You're working very hard to try to discredit Ecto's line of attack, which tells me that you're actually taking it very seriously indeed. You're leaning heavily on rhetoric because Ecto has you worried.

Vote: MonkeyMan576.

ekiM · Post Post #71 (ISO) » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:00 am

Kirbyoshi wrote:And to whoever asked me why I didn't comment on SL's "claim," I don't think there's much to comment on. If her PR (
which I take to mean Power Role, but I could be wrong
) has a condition for her to be sided with either town or scum, and we don't know concretely which side she's going to choose, isn't that much like how each of us is now, that no one knows for sure what side any given player is on?
In addition, I think it is more important, at least on D1
, to lynch scum than Indies;
correct me if I'm wrong
.

You're picking your words very carefully, aren't you? How many times did you re-write this post? The obsequiousness rubs me the wrong way, too.

MacavityLock · Post Post #72 (ISO) » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:31 am

I'm feeling good about the Monkey-wagon. Ecto's catch of being cautious with respect to SL while not being cautious with respect to Jordan is a good one.

However, the following is ridiculous:

Ectomancer wrote:P.S. - I believe that posting under your alt repeatedly in this game is your method of making it difficult to analyze and follow the thread of your posts. You might make an actual effort at logging in under the name you are playing this game under.

That's a massive stretch. Occam's Razor suggests that not re-logging in under the correct name is an easy and innocent mistake to make. That is, I can't read it as anything but null and it tweaks my scum-dar a bit by saying it's not null.

MonkeyMan576 · Post Post #73 (ISO) » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:34 am

MacavityLock wrote:I'm feeling good about the Monkey-wagon. Ecto's catch of being cautious with respect to SL while not being cautious with respect to Jordan is a good one.

However, the following is ridiculous:
Ectomancer wrote:P.S. - I believe that posting under your alt repeatedly in this game is your method of making it difficult to analyze and follow the thread of your posts. You might make an actual effort at logging in under the name you are playing this game under.
That's a massive stretch. Occam's Razor suggests that not re-logging in under the correct name is an easy and innocent mistake to make. That is, I can't read it as anything but null and it tweaks my scum-dar a bit by saying it's not null.

I don't have a double standard. When I suggested caution, I was explaining my overall approach, not a case by case basis. I'm more aggressive on Jordan because I find him scummier. The whole case against me seems to be based on faulty psychoanalysis.

Ectomancer · Post Post #74 (ISO) » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:34 am

MonkeyMan576 wrote:
springlullaby wrote:Clarification: PR means Power Role.
I'm clearly town aligned.
I'm not answering to any other role related question since with those clarification my last post should be clear enough for now.

I have other comments at this point but I'm choosing to let this game stew for 24 more hours.
How are you "clearly town aligned?"

Doese claiming power role automatically mean you are telling the truth? Why are you afraid of people asking questions, do you have something to hide?

FOS: springlullaby

I believe that Spring is saying there is no ambiguity in her alignment, but from her initial post we can assume her role is somewhat unusual and she is possibly at issue on how exactly to use it. Take it as an explanation that something odd may happen and she may be at the cause. We can take it as scum setting something up from the get go, or town warning us of a consequence of her actions to help avoid confusion later.

Take it as scummy, or take it as neutral. Ask Spring about something else, but I think we've heard enough about the role.