Newbie 841 - Game over!

[havingfitz]

Who says you aren't comparable to OMG? You? Well that's convenient...for you. You used OMG's inactivity as a negative towards him like I am towards you (among other negatives). In my opinion there is a comparision. And my comments regarding your persistent hypocratic play do not revolve entirely on comparisons to OMG (?).

This bothers me because Pablo is no where near as inactive as OMGL was.

As of OMG’s last post...Pablo uses inactivity as a negative towards OMG and as I have shown in my early post...Pablo was the most inactive player in the game. You asked for numbers and I gave them to you.

Once the replacement occurred (as I've already mentioned) I was willing to hear RayFrost out.Funny enough....since you apparently were so keen to hear from OMG's replacement you may want to note that he had you as his top scum suspect and me as his least scummy suspect.

This post bothers me. You definitely did not care what Ray had to say especially because you were pushing for the lynch to happen before he replaced in.

Once it was obvious a replacement was going to take place I was will to give the person the courtesy of hearing their thoughts on the game and OMG. I gave him longer to make a defense than anyone else. He made no defense. The only attempt he makes is in post 198 when he says:

Imo, his play would be classified as dumb play, but not necessarily scummy play. Some individuals are tentative by nature, so they are unlikely to push their ideas when there is anything even somewhat aggressive toward them. Then some experience mood swings that lead them to be aggressive toward their attackers and then they slip away again after the heat of the moment in a mix of embarrassment and self-doubt, etc, etc.

That's a rambly defense of his bad play, and it's the best you can get out of me in defense of it, in all likelihood.

He had been very active in his short time and had plenty of opportunity to make a strong defense. The only other post of any content he made was his LoS...in which he hit the nail on the head with his townish reads.

Also...how is my vote pre-emptive or panicked? I have voiced suspicions of you since before OMG was even gone and with OMG (and subsequently MiteyMouse) gone...you are my top suspect. And I gave numerous reasons for my suspicions. Nothing panicked about it. You on the other hand have a very weak defense/case against me...especially considering the biggest thing I've done to add to you suspcions of me is the editting I invalidated at the beginning of this post.

1. You definitely mentioned Pablo at the beginning of the game, but you rarely mention him (other than your scumlists) until Day 2 when he started mentioning your inconsistencies and scumminess.

Um....I mentioned him in my initial analysis (post 107), ranked in my scum list (post 109), post 114 where I also don’t rule anyone out, (post 131) where I describe suspicions of MM (and exhibit my trait for impatience), and (post 171) where I reiterate suspicions towards Pablo and MM...and ask them questions (scumhunting) which went unanswered...which MM was prodded to do in post 212. Pablo never was off my list and once OMG and MM were gone he went to the top of my list (hence the long debates we had on Day two).

2. Reading you in iso, you can find that your suspicions lie with T-chan, Pablo and OMG in this post. This is the one and only time you voice your suspicion of T-chan. You then mention your suspicion of MM here. You post another list of who you think is scummiest here. Then miraculously both of your suspects are gone, and you are free to focus on Pablo.

What is your point? People get lynched...when they wind up town you move on to the next suspect. If I was scum it would not be in my best interests to NK one of the people voting for and for which I may have been the only one casting suspicions on. But that would be using common sense which does escape some people. You seem to agree with your predecessors point of view on a few things....what about her comments re: building a case on Pablo?

3. Where specifically is his case weak? My guess is that you did not read the whole thing because you only think he's making a case on you based on the editting you did of his posts.

He stated himself the biggest suspicion he had on me was the editing of his posts:

The biggest thing you've done today to add to my preexisting suspicion is selectively edit quotes for your non-existent arguments.

As I have mentioned several times which a few select individuals are having trouble registering....I re-addressed my points on Pablo at the request of Paltry who said “line up exactly what parts of Pablo's posts you see as hypocritical.” How is that scummy? <shaking head in amazement>

I thought TC made some good observations on DN but when I looked closer I think I came to some of the same conclusions Bob has used in DN's defense. I'm not convinced DN is mafia.

I sense distancing.

I didn’t get it right on OMG...at the time I made these comments TC had confirmed DN was scum...I did not have the same advantage and as such was “not convinced DN” was mafia. I was also focusing my attentions on Pablo and my growing suspicions of ABR.

One thing I'd like to point out is that MM highly suspected fitz on Day 1 & died Night 1 and then ABR did the same on Day 2 & died Night 2.

It’s part of the game...as I have said....it would be pretty suicidal to just go after people who were focusing on me. It would be a smart scum IMO that would eliminate players that were either very townish or whose exit would implicate others.

On Havingfitz

That sucks that ABR was the doctor. If the doctor had made it through the night town would have been guaranteed the win. Now a town win is more like 50-50 unless TC guessed right during the night. As she had a 1-4 chance of investigating the right person I hope she chose wisely.

I love a bowl of WIFOM first thing in the morning.

How is stating my opinion WIFOM? How is this a good or bad statement?

I'm not sure how I'm feeling about this 1v1 between Paltry and Pablo, because I really don't suspect either and I'm getting the feeling of two townies going at it.

The town is in trouble. You incorrectly cast negatives on me for tunnelling and not looking at others when you are presenting a perfect example of it here. On the odds that I do go today...I suggest you start refining your positions on Paltry and Pablo because you’ll need it.


Now on to Starbuck's new laundry list of questions for me....

[havingfitz]

Btw, telling me to re-read when I just reread the whole game is rather redundant. I have the game fresh in my head, and I highlighted everything I found scummy of you and now I have to go back and repeat myself again to you.

It’s not redundant to ask if it is apparently required. You bring up a long list of items others had already brought up and which I had answered to. I don’t have new answers to them...if there is something specific about my answers that you want clarity on please ask...otherwise my responses have already been made on most of your points.

1. By typical, I mean that you can normally find scum right in the middle of the wagon. Typically the third vote in a Newbie Game. Way to get what I was saying wrong.

You got it wrong (a trend in itself)...I knew what you meant. My point was that since you place merit in the fact the third vote is typically scummy (ie it fits a trend)...you should also place merit on other things that typically take place...which I provide an example of....essentially...that it is atypical (meaning out of the ordinary) for scum to both be on a Day one town lynch....80% in the sampling of ten complete Newbie games that I took. If you want to object feel free to look in some games and do your own analysis. BTW...in the ten games I sampled...only two had scum in the 3rd spot...where are you getting your facts from?

2. So you are admitting to parroting and the fact that everyone else built a case and you figured you'd ride it out. You can accept others' cases, but you ALWAYS build your own and you never ride on the cases of others. That's scummy.

I have no idea what you are saying here. I was bringing up the point that you are using parroting as a negative indicator...and are accusing people (myself and others) of parroting off TC and Pablo’s suspicions of OMG...and accuse me directly of it in post 489. Yet it is ok for you to base your analysis on the comments of others. You can parrot but when others do it it’s a negative. Hypocrite.

3. The thought never crossed your mind of "Maybe OMGL could be town?". I highly doubt this as you were definitely looking for an easy lynch.

The thought OMG was town did enter my mind. Just as the possibility of everyone begin scum did. How ‘typically’ does town get it right on Day one? And don’t put words in my mouth or think for me...I was not looking for anything easy.

4. Ronnie didn't know OMG's alignment and she disagreed with it, but no one stopped to even hear what she said. She took the EXACT stance I would have taken if I started this game from the beginning.

OK...how does the fact no one heard what roo said relate to me specifically. You are singling me out for something you acknowledge everyone did. In my case...roo was not high on my list, I took note of her comments but did not feel the need to comment on them. BTW...since you would have played it just like her...her stance was also that a case was merited against Pablo. Thoughts on that?

5. How is entrance onto a wagon scummy? I already explained this in the post that you refer to. You wanted to lynch OMGL quickly because you DID NOT want a replacement to come in to redeem him.

And I have explained this in detail. What about my defense do you disagree with? Is there ever a good time for an L-1 vote? Or hammer?

6. Where did I say that every L-1, L-2, and hammer vote is scummy? I NEVER said that. I only said that you going out of your way to point out that you wouldn't be suspect of whoever hammers was suspicious. Nice try on twisting my words.

You QFT Pablo when he said my “dropping the hammer was incredibly scummy,” and you state the L-2 vote is the typical scum third vote, and you call my vote (at L-1) on OMG “a very opportunistic jump onto the OMGL wagon” And I didn’t claim you were taking that position...I was asking you if you were? (But you have cast negative implications in each situation)

7. How is it negative? You tunnel straight on OMG all day. You mention other suspects maybe once or twice, but all you do is talk about OMG like he made such a huge mistake. He was such an easy lynch that you took it, no questions asked because you knew that no matter what the replacement said, you'd still vote/hammer him, which you did.

I mentioned other suspects more than once or twice....get your numbers/facts straight. I have already addressed my suspicions/vote on OMG and my reasons for voting Ray. You are like a skipping record.

8. What are you talking about that I'm using points brought up by others? If someone else already pointed out something before I did, that's good. I'm glad they caught it when it happened. It doesn't make you any less scummy.

“Doesn’t make you less scummy?” Does it make you more scummy? You use it as a negative towards me. You call it parroting. I agree...if someone brings up a good point before you do...it’s worth consideration.

9. Following the crowd is when you just go along with it without adding anything new to the case, and you didn't add anything to the case already on OMG. DeathNote was sitting there all day on Day 1, scummy as all hell, and you let that slip right past you because you were too busy focusing on an inactive player, OR you were trying to cover for DeathNote.

There was not a boatload of material on OMG but it was day one and there was more (IMO) than there was on the others. (As apparently 2-3 others thought...not counting DN).

10. You say you had other suspects, but you don't focus on your other "suspects" who were active as hard as you focus on the inactive OMGL. You were so focused on OMGL's inactivity that you never noticed DeathNote's inactivity.

I focus on players but do not ignore others. There is only one vote to be given each day and I want it to go to my top suspect.

11. At that point in the game, you DID NOT know that T-C was a cop. So to use that now is quite WIFOM-y.

I’m not commenting from that point in the game...I’m commenting on the hindsight we both share on TC that at that point in the game...since she was not scum...she was obviously was not defending me as a scumbuddy...which I inferred from your dislike of the fact that you believed she was defending me.

12. About Ray being right, I guess you don't understand sarcasm?

I have a blackbelt in sarcasm...your comments towards Ray’s DN suspicions give no indication of sarcasm. You basically tell him he got it right and dispel the fact he also said he had no real read on DN (as was the case with some of the rest of us).

13. Your post to Ray definitely did not read to me as joking.

Another example of your faulty interpretations. Even Ray responded in a light hearted manner. Reacher.

14. Pablo hit the nail on the head with the fact that you wanted to lynch OMGL before a replacement was found, pretty much silencing anything that the replacement would say. I already read your explanation on your FOS, but you already had insinuated that you did not care what the replacement had to say because it would do little to sway your vote. So your unvote and FOS just made you look scummier.

Addressed

multiple

times in this game and once again....brought up again by you. Maybe this will help...

OMG was my main suspect and I gave RayFrost longer than anyone to defend himself and he did not do it adequately and in fact cast further suspicion on himself with the point TC brought up right before I hammered him.

15. Why would you assume that both scum would be on the lynch? Just because it didn't happen in your previous games, doesn't mean that it didn't/couldn't happen here.

I did not make any assumption. I make an observation based on games that have completed. Where do you get your trend analysis from? You reference typical vote patterns...so do I. If you can point out that it’s typical for scum to place the third vote (which I see no evidence of)...then I can bring up the point that it is atypical for both scum to vote town on day one (which I provide evidence of).

16. So you go and list the 3 people who didn't vote for Ray and include Ray on the list? Come on dude, a townie isn't going to give in to their lynch. Nor give the scum the satisfaction of hammering themselves.

“a townie isn't going to give in to their lynch” What does that have to do with my point? Obviously a scum isn’t going to either....so the fact my top three suspects were all off the Ray bandwagon in my mind signalled that at least one of them was scum. And after two of them wound up town....the spotlight got even brighter IMO on Pablo.

17. So how was ABR confirmed town?

I answered this. Let me quote my comments verbatim...” With Almightybob’s vote on ABR prior to TC coming out...ABR was practically confirmed town (unless he was bussing) so a confirmed town was the logical move for the remaining scum to make.” Not confirmed...but practically confirmed...at least IMO.

18. I have read your posts. I JUST READ THE ENTIRE FREAKING GAME. When you are that far along in the game, you give the courtesy of either directly linking to a post that you are referring to, or quoting it. You don't just give post numbers.

You have your posting style...I have mine. Since you are tunnelling me I’m sure you view it as a scum-tell.

19. The first moment I read OMGL's posts. I automatically got the feeling of a frustrated townie. You took his lurking out of the game as a scum tell and you are trying to use the same point in your case against Pablo.

Re: OMG...as did others. Remember...parroting can apparently be a good thing sometimes.
Re: Pablo...he lobbied against inactivity and then declared he was going to ride out the first few pages and then comes out later that it’s not his style...encourages others to be more active and then he is the most inactive in the game.

20. You keep pointing me to other posts which I've already read. Obviously, they didn't do much or I still wouldn't be wanting you to elaborate!

If your reading comprehension was better I wouldn’t have to.

I also love how you are trying so hard to make a case on me when T-C already confirmed me as town.

I am not making a case on you being scum. This is another comprehension failure. I am making a case for your shortcomings as a detective and defending the points you are raising (and in most cases re-raising) against me.

Where did I parrot?

If someone made the point I would have made if I was in this game from the beginning during the time of a certain post you made, I will definitely give them props for it.

Also, when a replacement replaces in and does an analysis, it's called that for a reason.

I still don't see where I'm parroting. I read through the game and pointed out what I thought was good and what I thought was scummy. That's what you do with an ANALYSIS. Also, 17 or 18 pages is nothing compared to the number of pages I normally catch up on when I replace into a game.

I have come up with my own case on you based on your actions. Now you are appealing to emotion big time.

As this is the first game I have seen the term parroting referred to maybe I am not getting it right. I assumed when you said everyone was parroting off TC and Pablo’s points on OMG...that you were saying we were using points that had already been raised. Which you are doing repeatedly to attempt to justify your suspicions on me and which indicates it is not your own case...it is a conglomeration of facts others have brought up a few new points added (which you have the benefit of reams of info whereas in Day one there is significantly less to go on). Open to clarification from others...

IC?

1. He pretty much opens it up like he's rather aghast that the town lost the doctor, and makes it well known that town would be guaranteed a win if the doc was alive. Scum normally fake being upset about losing a PR during the night.

2. I think it is a point against havingfitz especially because I think he's scum. He could have easily just been keeping all of the focus on OMGL so that DeathNote could slip by unnoticed.

“Scum normally fake being upset about losing a PR during the night.” LoL....where do you pull this info from? Do you have examples of this? How many? how often does this happen? How does town usually responded after a PR is lost? Reach reach reach reach. You think everything is a point against me because you are blind to the possibility that someone else is scum.

This is a standard scumtell:

Finding Mafia - at the bottom of the page, under "Day 2+ Mafia Errors".

Care to expound on your potentially necessary vote preferences between Pablo and Paltry?

[Starbuck]

Before I answer all of this, are you really trying to make a case on someone who's CONFIRMED?

[havingfitz]

Before I answer all of this, are you really trying to make a case on someone who's CONFIRMED?

As I state above:

20.

You keep pointing me to other posts which I've already read.

Obviously, they didn't do much or I still wouldn't be wanting you to elaborate!

If your reading comprehension was better I wouldn’t have to.

I also love how you are trying so hard to make a case on me when T-C already confirmed me as town.

I am not making a case on you being scum. This is another comprehension failure. I am making a case for your shortcomings as a detective and defending the points you are raising (and in most cases re-raising) against me.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Official Vote Count

Pablo Molinero - 1 (havingfitz)

havingfitz - 2 (Starbuck, Pablo Molinero)

Not Voting - 2 (PaltryExcuse, Tororingu-chan)

3 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Sunday, November 8.

[Pablo Molinero]

If it's not one person, its another that has to catch up. Just do it before the 8th, plz.

[Starbuck]

havingfitz, did you see the mod's response to your question at the bottom of 526? Do you still think I'm as blind as you think I am?

[Starbuck]

And btw, a lot of your questions, about the 3rd person on the bandwagon being mafia and what not is all in that link the mod provided.

[Tororingu-chan]

Wow, caught up! @_@
For the sake of not adding to the oodles of verbosity that have suddenly appeared in this game (of course that's a good thing in Mafia, hm?), I will try to keep it short. ^_^ Since I'll be paraphrasing, please feel free to correct me if I misinterpret anything~~

:arrow: I am not particularly convinced by the case on havingfitz... It's not easy to see when rereading, but when havingfitz dropped his weird L-1 on OMGLyncher the game had stalled -- iirc we were literally getting one post every three days or something! >_< I remember feeling very frustrated and impatient at that point, so I didn't find it a stretch to believe that fitz felt the same way~

:arrow: On the other hand, Starbuck has pointed out many times where havingfitz is just...

strange!

o_O Some of his posts are "off", like the PR-complaints. When I tried to failbluff at the beginning of the day, havingfitz definitely had the "strangest" reaction. This isn't something that I would lynch for, but it gives my gut funny feelings... but I will reconsider him.

:arrow: On the other hand, after deciding that havingfitz is her prime suspect, Starbuck sees every single thing that fitz posts as scummy.

I definitely think I caught you, and you are upset about it. Nice appeal to emotion though, it's a good try, but a failure.

I'm sure others got more emotional than havingfitz... @_@;;

:arrow: Going back to the D2 fitz vs Pablo... maybe it's just me, but why is hypocrisy a scumtell? o_O;; I don't get it. havingfitz made a pretty bad case against Pablo, but you don't lynch people for making bad cases, especially not in newbie games. =_=; Admittedly I paid the exchange less attention than I should have since I had a guilty on DeathNote and was planning to claim.

:arrow: I

still

don't like Pablo's statement that we should lynch everyone except him for a townie win. And I find the fact that he had almost no interactions with DeathNote/almightybob bizarre.... @_@;;

:arrow: And when it comes to "off" statements, Pablo's made plenty of his own. He likes waving the townie flag somewhat! ^_^;

:arrow: I'm giving a lot of thought to Pablo's "IC card" moment. Pulling the IC card in a newbie game isn't very nice anyway, but it's less mean if you're town and telling the truth than if you're scum and lying about it! ^_^ So I thought it was a pretty townie thing to do, but then he backpedalled when I pointed it out. ._.; I was tempted to just say "everyone let's just trust the IC because he said so, and lynch everyone but him!" Then it's either a win or a very funny loss! ^_^

:arrow: PaltryExcuse, I really hope you're town. O_O;

[havingfitz]

havingfitz, did you see the mod's response to your question at the bottom of 526? Do you still think I'm as blind as you think I am?

Yes…as proven by the fact I had to answer a question, again, from you (post 527) in my post 528 that I had

just

answered in post 526. And my comment about you being blind was in reference to the fact you have IMO not even given the distinct possibility that I am town any consideration and therefore everything out of the ordinary in this game makes me guaranteed scum to you…which I will point out was apparently a bad thing when people were accusing me of it. You still haven’t answered some of the questions I have asked you and you have not given your thoughts on many the points I have made in my numerous defenses. My primary targets in this game have been OMG and Pablo and while I have not wavered from them…I have at least looked at all of the other players and expressed my thoughts on them at some point. On the chance that you are mistaken and I am not scum….what are your thoughts on Pablo and Paltry? Are you prepared to decide between them?

And btw, a lot of your questions, about the 3rd person on the bandwagon being mafia and what not is all in that link the mod provided.

What “a lot of my questions” are you referring to? The wiki article justs says something about giving the 3rd vote on day one 10 (?) pts (or something like that). While the link is an interesting read, (which I had not reviewed), IMO it’s more of a guideline of possible signs of scum. If that is what you were using as the basis for your comments about Deathnote voting in the typical scum 3rd slot, uh…ok. That doesn’t take away from the following points or questions I raised from that comment. Also, I did not see scum typically voting 3rd in my sampling of games provided…which was the basis for my point that if typical vote positions (ie trends) are something you find value in (as well as the numbers you requested and made no mention of on the Pablo inactivity issue)…then what about the trend I illustrated where it is unlikely for both scum to be on a day one lynch of town (which would point to Pablo I might add)? If those possible tells were accurate more often than not…scum would just refer to them and consistenly do the opposite.

I am not particularly convinced by the case on havingfitz... It's not easy to see when rereading, but when havingfitz dropped his weird L-1 on OMGLyncher the game had stalled -- iirc we were literally getting one post every three days or something! >_< I remember feeling very frustrated and impatient at that point, so I didn't find it a stretch to believe that fitz felt the same way~

Agreed (of course) and what is iirc?

On the other hand, Starbuck has pointed out many times where havingfitz is just...

strange!

o_O Some of his posts are "off", like the PR-complaints. When I tried to failbluff at the beginning of the day, havingfitz definitely had the "strangest" reaction. This isn't something that I would lynch for, but it gives my gut funny feelings... but I will reconsider him.

What posts are you referring to and what did youfind strange about them? Just curious. And if I need to explain anything let me know.

On the other hand, after deciding that havingfitz is her prime suspect, Starbuck sees every single thing that fitz posts as scummy.

I definitely think I caught you, and you are upset about it. Nice appeal to emotion though, it's a good try, but a failure.

I'm sure others got more emotional than havingfitz... @_@;;

I’m sure as well. Exactly…how is town supposed to act when confronted with the overwhelming opinion by the key vote holder that they are scum? Speaking of emotion…in posts 458 and 459, Pablo requests a meta on him to prove he gets “passionate/pissed when I'm town”…TC produces an epic blow up by Pablo when he is frustrated at the game…and he was scum. Pablo claimed he would go off and find some examples of blowups when he wass town…but if he ever produced them I did not see them.

Going back to the D2 fitz vs Pablo... maybe it's just me, but why is hypocrisy a scumtell? o_O;; I don't get it. havingfitz made a pretty bad case against Pablo, but you don't lynch people for making bad cases, especially not in newbie games. =_=; Admittedly I paid the exchange less attention than I should have since I had a guilty on DeathNote and was planning to claim.

My case against Pablo was bad I thought it was good myself.

PaltryExcuse, I really hope you're town. O_O;

I hope so too as if Pablo goes today and it comes down to me or Paltry tomorrow…apparently Starbuck has her mind set.

[Starbuck]

I do have my mind set. I really haven't liked any of your replies or how overdefensive you have become.

I've read over what you wrote, but I just started class on Tues night which is why I haven't given a super huge verbose answer yet. I definitely feel that you are the last scum.

[Tororingu-chan]

Agreed (of course) and what is iirc?

iirc = if I recall correctly! ^_^ It's because I didn't want to go back and check to see exactly how inactive the game thread was, but I know that it was sloooooow~~~ >_>;;

What posts are you referring to and what did youfind strange about them? Just curious. And if I need to explain anything let me know.

The NK complaints etc. come off as strange... (as scum like to do such things!) you can't really explain it. It's only a feeling at this point... o_o;;

My case against Pablo was bad I thought it was good myself.

You did a good job proving that he was perhaps playing hypocritically and erratically, but how does that make him scum? o_O; Of course, atm I'm unsure about Pablo's alignment, but not because of your previous argument~ ^_^

******

I'd also like to note that I don't feel defensiveness is a scumtell at all, especially at this stage in the game. ~_~;;

[Starbuck]

There's a difference between defensiveness and OVERdefensiveness.

[Tororingu-chan]

Ah, I guess that depends on opinion then~~ ^_^ I should think that anyone wouldn't want to die at this stage.... >_>;;

[havingfitz]

I do have my mind set. I really haven't liked any of your replies or how overdefensive you have become.

I've read over what you wrote, but I just started class on Tues night which is why I haven't given a super huge verbose answer yet. I definitely feel that you are the last scum.

What haven’t you liked in my responses? How have I been over defensive (or appealed to emotion)? I have pointed out your shortcomings as a detective and lack of attention to what has been written…sure. But then again I also have the advantage of knowing whether you are right or not.

Also, I have had the courtesy to respond to most, if not all, of your questions and points while you have not done the same for me. Good points I have made have gone ignored, points based on opinion have been tossed aside or maintained as negatives towards me, and a reread of your 3 days of analysis shows you have failed to give Pablo or Paltry anywhere near as much attention as you gave me.

The fact that you come into a game that is this far along and have apparantly not given any weight to where the other players' suspicions lie...other players who have had the benefit of the entire game and it's flow to formulate their suspicions shows shortsight and narrow-mindedness. At least I have looked at others besides OMG/Ray and Pablo.

In addition to any of my questions that weren't answered that I may be overlooking, I would be interested in your view on:

- The proof of Pablo's inactivity (as requested by you) despite his encouragement to all to be active

- Despite accusations I did not give Ray a chance to reply...the fact I gave him longer than anyone and the fact that he did not in fact produce any defense of value (as admitted by him)...and the fact two of the other players still in the game were also on that vote. Why am I continuing to be singled out on the OMG/Ray vote?

- As you referenced typical voting habits (as apparently illustrated by the wiki)...your thoughts on my 10 completed game analyis (where town went on day one) that showed 8 of 10 did not have both scum on the day one lynch.

- My response re: the editting I did of Pablo's posts during my exchange with him...doe the fact I was fulfilling a request by Paltry to use exact 'parts' of Pablo's posts to support my argument mitigate that negative?

- Pablo's emotional outbreak which he attributes his passionate/pissed attitude to how he acts when he is town....when the only example provided (by TC) was of him having a similar outburst when he was scum. And no examples of similar outbreaks when town have been provided by Pablo...despite his stated intentions to find some.

- In your analysis of the three days...you focused on me more than any of the other suspects...I saw some concerns with a few of Paltry's posts, and what seemed to me to be complete disregard...a hall pass to Pablo for anything he may have done. If it comes down to the two of them...what are your thoughts?

[Pablo Molinero]

:arrow: Going back to the D2 fitz vs Pablo... maybe it's just me, but why is hypocrisy a scumtell? o_O;; I don't get it. havingfitz made a pretty bad case against Pablo,

but you don't lynch people for making bad cases, especially not in newbie games. =_=;

Admittedly I paid the exchange less attention than I should have since I had a guilty on DeathNote and was planning to claim.

Actually, that's a reliable scumtell pretty much everywhere on site.

Scum must try to lynch town. Scum have to make cases against townies in where they (the scum) know their basic premise (lynching scum) is inheriently false. This breeds cases based on falsehoods and reaching logic and these are identified as "bad" cases. Therefore these cases are more likely used by scum.

Now, yes, there are times when scum can use legit cases against people who unwittingly commit scumtells and there are also times when townies just don't "get it" and use bad cases because they're trying too hard, but

as a whole

the probability of someone using a bad case is more likely to be scum.

You follow?

[Pablo Molinero]

:arrow: I'm giving a lot of thought to Pablo's "IC card" moment. Pulling the IC card in a newbie game isn't very nice anyway, but it's less mean if you're town and telling the truth than if you're scum and lying about it! ^_^ So I thought it was a pretty townie thing to do, but then he backpedalled when I pointed it out. ._.; I was tempted to just say "everyone let's just trust the IC because he said so, and lynch everyone but him!" Then it's either a win or a very funny loss! ^_^

The "IC Card" is a direct IC Ethics violation (Thanks, VRK) of me trying to leverage my position of power to influence the game. Thus, I immedeately retracted the statement as I should have.

[Tororingu-chan]

Bad cases may be a scumtell elsewhere, but I really hesitate to use it as such in a newbie game when people are still learning the ropes... x_x;;

[Pablo Molinero]

They are less reliable in Newbie games, yes, but still have to be considered, don't you think? Fitz also has more than 1 game to his name.

[Pablo Molinero]

PABLO’S ANGRY META (if you don't care about my "blow up situation" don't bother with this post):


------------

One of my first games; basically all of day 2 of this game where I spend time making long posts and banging my head against the wall, increasingly frustrated in tone:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=


------------


In this one, a lot of the later Days I (as town) was accused for inactivity and had to turn things around or the town would lose. I did so, getting passionate in the process, and town won with me in endgame.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

Man, I'm tied to BB/Zach by Vi, Spring/Zach by BB, and Spring/BB by Zach as a buddy. Anyone see something wrong with this? In my experience, people agreeing is never, ever a good thing. Either epic bussing is happening (very unlikely at presumed LyLo), or ya'll are wrong. Think about it.

----

Well, for one, I've been moving from Dayton to Columbus to Cincinnati in the past week. (Like, moving, moving, not just driving to and from). Would it be better if I just popped in with a "sorry busy week, lol" and went away? As for when I'm not moving about the state, "Hiding" isn't really an apt word for my behavior, methinks, more frustration and apathy with all the fukkin' replacements and never really getting "into" the game, so I never established any momentum.

(Thanks for your 562, Vi, so I know who the hell is who and who was on the wagons)

As for your other question Setael question about Zach, I'm finding him scummy from both Vi's (high protown player sofar) arguments and his recent "I'd like a lynch, even if it's me" noble-bullshit attitude WHEN WE'RE AT LYLO. No logical town would say that seriously, so I'm highly suspecting that it's just an act.

Vote: zachrulez

Beyond's recent behavior does nothing to inspire confidence (how the hell am I potential buddies to these two, Vi??) in that Zach expresses his desire for a Pablo or BB lynch and BB is quite quickly on the Pablo train. Cause and effect.

Dear lord. As much as it pains me to admit it, I agree with Setael in this whole exchange, and looker's reactions are just *so* ridiculous and strained, I can't help but to think our scum in panicing. I know the difference between "stupid" and STUPID (I have played with Empking and millar and zwet before), and this is falling in the former category. It ain't sitting right with me. Find something legit. Defend yourself.

vote: looker

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This is probably the best one. I (as town) was getting hounded by a weak, weak, case that no one could explain and ended up lynched anyways after I curse up a storm. Town used that as a springboard to win, though.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

This is 99 kinds of stupid. No one has given me a legit reason why I should be even a remotely decent lynch, just "Kinda linked to Vic" by Exalt, "Kinda linked to Exalt(?!?)" by Onion, and... well, nothing really by Blood other than "other people looking less scummy", so it just must be OMGUS. Don't let him get away with another weak bandwagon vote. You still have not given me a legit reason about my lynch. Do you think we are likely to find scum in me?

Kmd, you seem content to sit back and watch your creation take off, give me a reason other then Illustrated was kinda scummy eons ago. Contribute, plz. You "say" that you find Scigatt most scummy, and yet you're not bothering to pursue it. Because, hey, a mislynch is a mislynch, right?

We got several days left, so no one rush to hammer. There are still enough votes on the board between Vic, Scigatt, and Onion to swing a different lynch and maybe enough time for Exalt to come around (still holding out hope). You know, one that makes sense. I have not been inconsistent in my play, I have not made any massive gaffes or lies, I have not made an OMGUS vote, and I have not jumped from bandwagon to bandwagon.

Are you f**king blind? This is an out-and-out lie of my motives. I want to catch scum and Blood has the highest probability turning up that way. Also, it gives us information and helps CLEAR you more than harm you if he somehow flips town. I am more worried about a Blood/Kmd pair than I am of you/Blood. Get over yourself, this whole game does not revolve around you.

Hey idiot.

…And then he posted on Sunday saying he got back and needed the sleeps. Then he posted part 1 today and will post tomorrow. If he doesn't then and only then do you have a legitimate claim.

------------


One more! Most recent game (again, I was town, won in endgame):

On the other hand, you have to see it from my point of view: I see someone do one of the most scummy things IMO, and if I let them off the hook easily and you end up being scum, I would have to throw myself out of a damn window from the embarrassment. You're trending in the right direction, though, so there may be hope for you yet.

I see I’ve taken two FoS’s from Kirby and adam, and yet no vote. Isn’t that quaint. Kirby, your breakdown of my posts on 242 is laughable. You show that I had a weak reason to vote adam (for emoticons), and then can’t figure it out when I FoS Katy for agreeing with me on the weak reason (or so I thought at the time, Katy has since recanted and I remain mildly suspicious of her). What, does 2+2=fish in your world? Scumhunting, I was doing it.

------------


So, yeah, some meta analysis and links if you’re all interested in checking them. I'm kind of a jerk at times and this game was a pretty classic case of me getting frustrated with someone and a-sploding.

Also: Aside from the guaranteed win from surviving in this game, the “I have to survive” posts that make you so wary, T-c, (and rightfully so, from your position) amounts to me being very prideful in controlling my own destiny and keeping my endgame Win/Loss stats up. I don't like trusting others with my fate.

[Starbuck]

Actually if you read back in his posts, he has finished a game and is participating in another besides this one.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

:arrow: Going back to the D2 fitz vs Pablo... maybe it's just me, but why is hypocrisy a scumtell? o_O;; I don't get it. havingfitz made a pretty bad case against Pablo,

but you don't lynch people for making bad cases, especially not in newbie games. =_=;

Admittedly I paid the exchange less attention than I should have since I had a guilty on DeathNote and was planning to claim.

Actually, that's a reliable scumtell pretty much everywhere on site.

Scum must try to lynch town. Scum have to make cases against townies in where they (the scum) know their basic premise (lynching scum) is inheriently false. This breeds cases based on falsehoods and reaching logic and these are identified as "bad" cases. Therefore these cases are more likely used by scum.

Now, yes, there are times when scum can use legit cases against people who unwittingly commit scumtells and there are also times when townies just don't "get it" and use bad cases because they're trying too hard, but

as a whole

the probability of someone using a bad case is more likely to be scum.

You follow?

Hence this is a scumtell - something that scum do more often than town.

-Vel

[PaltryExcuse]

Sorry I wasn't on yesterday! I meant to tell you all I had 2 midterms today and was going to be studying all last night. Sadly, again, its catch up time.

[havingfitz]

They are less reliable in Newbie games, yes, but still have to be considered, don't you think? Fitz also has more than 1 game to his name.

I had been in only one game prior to this one and replaced into my third game after Almightybob was lynched. So did I have more than one game to my name when I made my day one and two exchanges with you? Yes....by one. [And I'll like my case against you until your role is revealed by vote or game over].

As for your townie blow up examples...I would consider the 3rd one a decent example but none of the others. Still does not take away from the fact TC amended your passionate/pissed when a townie comments to show an excellent example of you going off when you were scum.

[Pablo Molinero]

That game in which I was scum was anger due to lack of activity in the game. Go back and look at the total length of that game. Awful. This game's frustration has come out of being voted for via weak cases and others misunderstanding my cases, which falls right into my Meta.