Mini 816: Revenge of the Monkey(GAME OVER!)

[ryan2754]

I will more than likely be V/LA this Friday and Saturday for my buddy's bachelor party. I will catch up on Sunday, when i get back from Indianapolis.
-Ryan

[StrangerCoug]

How did I fail to answer your question? My point was that if we're not careful, bandwagons can lead to mislynches. You seem not to care, which is a big fat scumtell.

Ok, this is much clearer than your other post. I will ask you too, why do you discount the possibility of a wagon on Scott ending with a scum lynch?

Did I say that if we're not careful, Scott will die and flip town? No I did not. I was talking in general, not specifically about him. We may get lucky and run someone up to a lynch with just random votes for that person to flip scum, but that only has a 25% chance or so of happening—and that obviously assumes it's allowed to happen.

You say that if two scum swoop in to quickhammer, then those two are obvscum. How, therefore, is Scott Brosius being run up to L-2 or L-1 for no other reason than "just because" a good thing?

For the same reason I've been saying. You get to see how he reacts, and how others react to it and if anyone unvotes, or quickvotes. I call it scumhunting.[/quote]
Getting reactions is a good thing, but please tell me you have a better way than THAT to scumhunt. I suggest one that doesn't risk losing a townie for spurious reasoning.

You say that as if you know that they were actually trying to lynch Scott. Why?

I never said that they were trying to lynch Scott. I said you were trying to deflate a random wagon on Scott.

I am pretty sure Devestation is scum at this point. This is getting quite easy.

I personally think charter is scum at this point and this is getting quite easy as he can't adequately explain why bandwagoning benefits the town, and I agree with Snake that the former providing game examples of bandwagoning with him being winning scum leaves a black mark on him. I can see Devestation-scum, though, but barely a connection with Scott—Mafiosi sometimes get concerned about what happens to their buddies, but that's the only basis of Dev and Scott being buddies that I see.

[StrangerCoug]

Damn quote tags again >< You can tell who posted what, though.

[Konowa]

@Mod - Votecount is not correct. Snake is currently voting charter.

Have not done any thinking or going over yet. First day off in about nine so I am being lazy right now. Will probably get around to this later today.

[charlatan]

Unvote

.

I'm not neglecting anything. The point, one way or another, is that he left his vote on Scott even after Dev tried to get people off his wagon. I'm aware of the order: Charter voted Scott in RVS and then Dev defended him. The point is that even after Dev made the post, charter kept his vote on Scott while also saying he didn't see any reason to unvote.

Is this supposed to be damning in and of itself, or did I miss your argument here? I agree that charter had no particular reason to unvote at the time, and the fact that Devastation said to is irrelevant if he didn't agree that the bandwagon was harmful.

--

I guess now's a good time to offer my general thoughts on what's going on. Devastation's unvote and implication that the town was in danger ("no accidents") was odd, since there wasn't much risk involved. charter's response has not been without red flags, especially in terms of posting links in which running up an early-game bandwagon has helped him win as scum before. That said, when he made the easy semi-random vote on Scott, I fully expected scum to jump on him for an easy early mislynch target. Devastation was able to cast soft suspicion without actually laying cards on the table: he unvoted as if charter's vote was more reckless and dangerous than it actually was, but did not vote himself. This keeps him from making waves while simultaneously suggesting that charter stands to harm the town. It works best if Scott's town, as he gets buddy points.

StrangerCoug took the ball and ran with it, and has since tunneled hard on charter. Snake has played back-up, but he's engaging more in the overall dialogue, whereas Stranger has pretty much spent the entire game (at least in Serious Mode) taking swings at charter. I think it's an easy fight to pick, and at the end of the day I don't think charter's attitude towards bandwagoning is scummy, just arguably ill-reasoned. So, I'm looking mostly at the attackers.

Do I think charter's tactics thus far have been optimal? No. Do I think they've been scummy? Not necessarily. At least not with even a hint of the surety others have expressed.

Vote: StrangerCoug

FoS: Devastation

[Scott Brosius]

I agree with Charter for the most part. If a quick lynch is achieved d1, it can only help the town, since it will be pretty obvious that scum will be on the tail end of a wagon. Sacrificing one townie for a good chance to win the game for town is well worth it. It's not the most orthodox way to scumhunt, but overreactions are certainly a good way to get reads on people especially on d1 when no player is confirmed yet.

StrangerCoug, you seem deathly afraid of losing a townie, to the point where I think you are scum trying too hard to appear town. I don't want to lose townies either, but as I already stated, sometimes this helps in the long run. Scum please feel free to attempt to use this to vote me under the guise that I don't care about losing townies.

Unvote, Vote:StrangerCoug

[dramonic]

A lot of this theory about how scum will be in the tail of the wagon is shaky. If the scum is any intelligent, they'll let the newb players be the tail of said wagon to put suspicion on them instead.

[StrangerCoug]

StrangerCoug took the ball and ran with it, and has since tunneled hard on charter. Snake has played back-up, but he's engaging more in the overall dialogue, whereas Stranger has pretty much spent the entire game (at least in Serious Mode) taking swings at charter. I think it's an easy fight to pick, and at the end of the day I don't think charter's attitude towards bandwagoning is scummy, just arguably ill-reasoned. So, I'm looking mostly at the attackers.

Do I think charter's tactics thus far have been optimal? No. Do I think they've been scummy? Not necessarily. At least not with even a hint of the surety others have expressed.

Vote: StrangerCoug

charter seems to advocate the idea that all bandwagons are pro-town, which is not true. That's been the basis of my attack against him. Yes, I'm primarily focusing on charter, but I'm not oblivious to the Devestation case, nor am I fond of Konowa at this point.

StrangerCoug, you seem deathly afraid of losing a townie, to the point where I think you are scum trying too hard to appear town. I don't want to lose townies either, but as I already stated, sometimes this helps in the long run. Scum please feel free to attempt to use this to vote me under the guise that I don't care about losing townies.

Unvote, Vote:StrangerCoug

The "losing a townie" thing is the potential consequence of mindless bandwagoning (what I think charter wants) that I'm trying to hammer into charter's head. If you would like to kill a town power role that way, then be my guest.

[charter]

Charter, the first three seemed fair game, but those last two links you were scum, survived, and won the game for your team. Obviously that means it doesn't always work in towns favor and you may very well be scum right now because of it. My vote will remain on you, but seeing how it seems to be able to work in towns favor more so than I thought, it will be easier to get my vote off you, should something else come up.

In the mini where I was scum, I thought I was town and so did the mafia in the first two/three days, so that game still holds up.

Why should we discount the possibility of a wagon on you ending with a scum lynch?

Was anybody talking about me? Was anybody saying "vote charter, wagon"? No. Where do you come up with these pointless questions? The answer is no, you shouldn't discount the possibility.

Pressure rarely works, especially if they're aware that's what it is. They're behind a computer, so they have plenty of time to think. What I try to do is question, look for inconsistencies and look for slips.

Ok, then this is a difference in opinion on mafia theory. Pressure does work. So do slips though.

I know you did it for reactions, but I called for people to unvote because I think bandwagoning is daft the entire way, and mafia can go and search for reactions too using the same technique.

This is dumb/not true. Mafia don't need to figure out people's alignment, so they don't care about early reactions.

dramonic

, who are your top two suspects, and why do you think they are suspicious? Do you think they are scum together? Why/why not?

My vote is staying on Charter because I consider quick-wagons to be purely scum beneficial.

And do you have anything to back this up? I just showed a bunch of examples how they're beneficial for town, are you ignoring them?

StrangerCoug took the ball and ran with it, and has since tunneled hard on charter. Snake has played back-up, but he's engaging more in the overall dialogue, whereas Stranger has pretty much spent the entire game (at least in Serious Mode) taking swings at charter. I think it's an easy fight to pick, and at the end of the day I don't think charter's attitude towards bandwagoning is scummy, just arguably ill-reasoned. So, I'm looking mostly at the attackers.

Yes, this is basically what I've been suspecting StrangerCoug on this game as well. He hasn't said two words about anyone but me, and isn't interested in finding out anyone else's alignment, or even mine. He took one post of mine, declared me to be scum, and has been arguing it tooth and nail since.

especially in terms of posting links in which running up an early-game bandwagon has helped him win as scum before.

Once again, only one of those games I was actually scum in the beginning.

Scott, what do you think of Devastation? Do you think he is suspicious or what?

[Konowa]

charter seems to advocate the idea that all bandwagons are pro-town, which is not true. That's been the basis of my attack against him. Yes, I'm primarily focusing on charter, but I'm not oblivious to the Devestation case, nor am I fond of Konowa at this point.

That is a very open-ended, vague statement. What exactly are you not fond of at this point?

Also, remind me why you are voting charter again, because right now it seems that you voting him for purely theoretical reasons.

[dramonic]

just saying I've read the stuff but cant answer your questions right now Charter.

I'll try to answer later tonight, but if I can't expect the answer somewhere around 24 hours from now.

[charter]

charter seems to advocate the idea that all bandwagons are pro-town, which is not true.

Yeah, 9 times out of 10 bandwagons are good, especially in the RVS. I guess they can be bad, but I can't recall a game I've ever been in where town quickhammered town on a wagon. I only remember scum quickhammering town.

[Sajin]

Rolling pressure based bandwagons are the tools of scum to determine what town thinks of each other and to out roles.

A well reasoned bandwagon that has questionable deeds committed by the wagonee is the tool of the town.



I do not find SC scummy for simply having that opinion nor do I find charter scummy for having the opposite opinions. I think its a null tell from a meta standpoint. I found Devestation's case to be the best one so far and will retain my vote there.

[charter]

StrangerCoug is scummy because he isn't scumhunting. He's just going after me, and isn't making any attempt to discern my alignment. He's also having barebones interactions with everyone else in the game.

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote Count
With 12 playing, it requires 7 to lynch

Devestation(3) - Sajin, Ryan2754, charter
Charter(2) - dramonic, StrangerCoug
Snake(2) - Ryan2754, Konowa
StrangerCoug(2) - Charleston, Scott Brosius
Scott Brosius(1) - AdamNW,
Ryan2754(1) - Regfan

[Devestation]

This is dumb/not true. Mafia don't need to figure out people's alignment, so they don't care about early reactions

Yes they do, if they want to lynch someone they need JUST as much evidence as any townie.

I have explained the reason for my unvote if you'd care to remember.

Sajin has defined scummy and townie wagons fairly well (although it is assumed that every person that votes in the townie wagon has some solid reasons of their own for their vote), but I think you will find the bandwagon that I asked to stop before it goes overboard fits better into the first category of wagon than the second. The RVS stage is NOT a place of reason, it is a place of voting because of irrelevant details. It does NOT fit into the second category, no matter how you look at it.

[StrangerCoug]

StrangerCoug, you seem deathly afraid of losing a townie, to the point where I think you are scum trying too hard to appear town. I don't want to lose townies either, but as I already stated, sometimes this helps in the long run. Scum please feel free to attempt to use this to vote me under the guise that I don't care about losing townies.

Unvote, Vote:StrangerCoug

The "losing a townie" thing is the potential consequence of mindless bandwagoning (what I think charter wants) that I'm trying to hammer into charter's head. If you would like to kill a town power role that way, then be my guest.

I should have posted a clearer defense: Must we mislynch, I'd rather the reasoning be well-founded and not spurious.

Yes, this is basically what I've been suspecting StrangerCoug on this game as well. He hasn't said two words about anyone but me, and isn't interested in finding out anyone else's alignment, or even mine.

This is false. I've touched on the same Devestation-Scott Brosius connection that your posts imply to exist, and by saying I'm not fond of Konowa, I imply that I'm leaning scum on him. Me talking mostly about you ≠ me talking only about you.

charter seems to advocate the idea that all bandwagons are pro-town, which is not true. That's been the basis of my attack against him. Yes, I'm primarily focusing on charter, but I'm not oblivious to the Devestation case, nor am I fond of Konowa at this point.

That is a very open-ended, vague statement. What exactly are you not fond of at this point?

I disagree with you when you said that Devestation is making this game easy, and I also have a gut feeling you're connected to charter.

Also, remind me why you are voting charter again, because right now it seems that you voting him for purely theoretical reasons.

My initial reasoning was actually a cheap bandwagon vote on Scott Brosius, but when charter went out of his way to voice an anti-town view on bandwagon, I shifted my attack to address that.

charter seems to advocate the idea that all bandwagons are pro-town, which is not true.

Yeah, 9 times out of 10 bandwagons are good, especially in the RVS. I guess they can be bad, but I can't recall a game I've ever been in where town quickhammered town on a wagon. I only remember scum quickhammering town.

Convince me that bandwagons are a good town weapon outside of the random voting stage and I'll consider unvoting you.

StrangerCoug is scummy because he isn't scumhunting. He's just going after me, and isn't making any attempt to discern my alignment. He's also having barebones interactions with everyone else in the game.

I think any person who thinks someone should be run up to L-2 or L-1 in the RVS, which you said you'd be happy with, should have a rope tied around his or her neck. I would have moved along had you been more thoughtful about the matter.

[charlatan]

Sajin has defined scummy and townie wagons fairly well (although it is assumed that every person that votes in the townie wagon has some solid reasons of their own for their vote), but I think you will find the bandwagon that I asked to stop before it goes overboard fits better into the first category of wagon than the second.

This is still pretending that placing a third vote on a player in RVS was a big, deadly bandwagon barreling towards a lynch. Which, by the way, it was not.

Have any of you had much luck catching scum based on a theory disagreement before? I haven't.

[Konowa]

My initial reasoning was actually a cheap bandwagon vote on Scott Brosius, but when charter went out of his way to voice an anti-town view on bandwagon, I shifted my attack to address that.

So you are now attacking him because of his view on bandwagons? Yes or no.

[StrangerCoug]

My initial reasoning was actually a cheap bandwagon vote on Scott Brosius, but when charter went out of his way to voice an anti-town view on bandwagon, I shifted my attack to address that.

So you are now attacking him because of his view on bandwagons? Yes or no.

Yes.

[Konowa]

So this is an attack purely based on theoretical differences? Glad we got that out of the way.

unvote;

vote StrangerCoug

While charter's view on bandwagoning is a bit extreme, I believe and agree that the purpose behind it is pro-town in nature. For you be attacking him this hard over theory is very scummy.

I disagree with you when you said that Devestation is making this game easy, and I also have a gut feeling you're connected to charter.

So you do not believe Devestation to be scum at this point?

[dramonic]

I cant believe people are still voting Dev. Seriously, he's about as scummy as a can of tuna fihs (that's not scummy, by the way)

[StrangerCoug]

I disagree with you when you said that Devestation is making this game easy, and I also have a gut feeling you're connected to charter.

So you do not believe Devestation to be scum at this point?

No, he has done things that make him scummy in my mind, but not as much as charter.

[dramonic]

Now, to answer Charter...

dramonic, who are your top two suspects, and why do you think they are suspicious? Do you think they are scum together? Why/why not?

Right now, I can admit my scumdar is not giving me prime suspect. However, anti-town wise, you and SC are both "beeping"

You, for reasons explained earlier (and below, AKA next quote)
SC, because if I ain't mistaken he's willing to LYNCH you for your bandwagon view.

As much as I consider creating quick-wagons warrant a vote, I don't think it warrants a quicklynch and SC seems to be pushing for that.

dramonic wrote:
My vote is staying on Charter because I consider quick-wagons to be purely scum beneficial.

And do you have anything to back this up? I just showed a bunch of examples how they're beneficial for town, are you ignoring them?

Hitting scum on a quickwagon is purely luck. Yes, it's very tempting for scum to get that kind of easy lynches, but it's the initiation of the procedure that is the real scummy act. A lot of newb towns are tempted by quick lynches too, just because it's easy.

[Konowa]

@Sajin - I know you have said that you do not find either charter nor Stranger scummy for having separate opinions, but what do you think of Stranger attacking charter over an apparent theory disagreement?

Also, restate why you think Devestation is the best person to be voting right now.