Newbie 803 - Game Over.

[Zorblag]

Vote Count 1.3

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

Einlanzers: 3: jammer (4), Claramata (9), Porkens (10)
Porkens: 1: VP Baltar (1)
jammer: 1: Lupo El Loco (5)
Lupo El Loco: 1: Santos (8)
Jonnydelawelsh: 1: Einlanzers (11)

Not voting: Cartza, jonnydelawelsh

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Currently Einlanzers would be lynched at deadline. Deadline is 6:00 PM EDT/3:00 PM PDT on Tuesday, July 7th.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Santos]

VP Baltar, why start with a random vote on an IC?

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar, why start with a random vote on an IC?

Because Porkens got me killed in another game and was giving him a joking vengence vote. Why would a random vote on an IC be suspect to you is a better question.

I need to catch up and make some comments in this game, which I will do sometime today.

[Porkens]

Either way he doesn't appear to be an asset to the townies. And seeing as I'll probably be lynched anyways I may aswell go down trying to help the town out.

Does anyone else see this as an appeal to emotion?

[jammer]

Either way he doesn't appear to be an asset to the townies. And seeing as I'll probably be lynched anyways I may aswell go down trying to help the town out.

Does anyone else see this as an appeal to emotion?

Well I think you could say that. But what do you think about it yourself? I don't really see it as a scum- or town-tell.

[Porkens]

I could see it as a noob thing. But to declare, more than once; "I am town and I'm being lynched...poor me" is a noob-scum tactic (no offense). So is "I'm just a noobie, cut me some slack."

I'm not saying it's a strong scumtell, but it is certainly not compelling me to move my vote, nor is it an acceptable defense.

Thoughts jammer?

[jammer]

I could see it as a noob thing. But to declare, more than once; "I am town and I'm being lynched...poor me" is a noob-scum tactic (no offense). So is "I'm just a noobie, cut me some slack."

I'm not saying it's a strong scumtell, but it is certainly not compelling me to move my vote, nor is it an acceptable defense.

Thoughts jammer?

As far you can compare it to ''If you vote me you lose'' what I seen often in EM, I kind of think it is a null-tell. But certainly seen newb-mafia doing it, but in a yelling for attention way trying to flip one towny in lylo. Didn't see that post as a attention seeker.
I do see ''I am new'' as a excuse by scum and town. Some more with mafia especially when claiming PR's.

Just alone this point is little, imo. But seems to add up.

But actually like to hear what others thinks about this.

I mean, Cartza, Lupo El Loco, jonnydelawelsh and Santos with it. What do you all think?

[Claramata]

Either way he doesn't appear to be an asset to the townies. And seeing as I'll probably be lynched anyways I may aswell go down trying to help the town out.

Does anyone else see this as an appeal to emotion?

I see it, and I don't like it. I don't find appeals to emotion to be particularly town-friendly, and it's trying to deflect from logic. I'm keeping my vote where it is for now.

[Lupo El Loco]

Both mafia and town-newbies are likely to appeal to emotion IMO

It might be a clue, but then again it might not.

So I don't find it to be very compelling evidence of anything.

[jammer]

Both mafia and town-newbies are likely to appeal to emotion IMO

It might be a clue, but then again it might not.

So I don't find it to be very compelling evidence of anything.

What do you think about the 3 votes on ein, and all posts and arguments around it?

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I'm getting to my reread right now. While I'm doing that, porkens and jammer, can you tell me who else you are suspicious of, if anyone, besides ein?

[Porkens]

Ok, I'm getting to my reread right now. While I'm doing that, porkens and jammer, can you tell me who else you are suspicious of, if anyone, besides ein?

I'm focused on Lazerz right now, and I'd like to reserve my other suspicions for the time being.

Both mafia and town-newbies are likely to appeal to emotion IMO

It might be a clue, but then again it might not.

So I don't find it to be very compelling evidence of anything.

How about Town and mafia-newbies?

[Santos]

To answer jammer:

I've appealed to emotion before. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Lupo, are you done stating the obvious? Does anyone look suspicious to you? Why?

VP Baltar, are you going to include your suspicions in your reread post?

[jammer]

Ok, I'm getting to my reread right now. While I'm doing that, porkens and jammer, can you tell me who else you are suspicious of, if anyone, besides ein?

Noone, actually.

Santos, cartza and lupo have added little if any. Don't feel I saw enough to say anything usefull about them. It would help if they posted more.

And why do you ask it to porkens and me. Why not Carla? Or the other players?

[Santos]

How should I post 'more' when I've been posting?

[jammer]

How should I post 'more' when I've been posting?

You do post, I just feel like those don't add much as in what you think. You seem to be looking how it unfolds. But, I have no clue what your opinions on the matter are.

[Santos]

I'm posing questions to players. I would like responses from them.

Where am I 'looking how it unfolds'?

Where should I have 'opinions on the matter'?

[Lupo El Loco]

To answer jammer:

I've appealed to emotion before. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Lupo, are you done stating the obvious? Does anyone look suspicious to you? Why?

VP Baltar, are you going to include your suspicions in your reread post?

Yes, jammer (which is why I voted for him)

He seems to want to take the lead of the investigation a bit too much, and really actively questions other players to shift the attention away from himself.

[Santos]

Actually, ignoring questions seems a little suspicious.

[jammer]

I'm posing questions to players. I would like responses from them.

VP Baltar, why start with a random vote on an IC?

Lupo, would you agree or disagree with Einlanzers thoughts on jonny?

First questions seems off. I'd like to hear the anwser on the second through.

Where am I 'looking how it unfolds'?

Where should I have 'opinions on the matter'?

'the matter' is ein. And I haven't seen you taking a stand in it.

I seen to have forgotten to ask you questions.

Who do you suspect?
If ein was your partner, how would you react on these posts?

Yes, jammer (which is why I voted for him)

He seems to want to take the lead of the investigation a bit too much, and really actively questions other players to shift the attention away from himself.

I like 'leading'. I like playing the game.
(I have a strange habit of push a lynch on players who ask, why are you leading, who cleared you?) Feels like the chainsaw attack, link I had to check myself whatever it meant.
Chainsaw attack


But you can ask me any question of what is suspicious to you and bring it into attention.

If you where mafia, how would you act and response in the day?
Was the wagon on Ein too much suddenly?

[Santos]

I asked VP why he voted an IC because it seemed highly doubtful that it wasn't random. And he even said he voted him because Porkens got him lynched in another game. So, it wasn't random. His ulterior motive is revenge then? Ultimately, his vote is rather a joking vote as opposed to a random vote and I am not as suspicious it now.

Ein's lynch party grew fast. You're right that it seems a little steep for it to be random voting stage, but when does random voting stage really end? Does this mean his voters have good reasons for voting him? Well, lets look.
1) jammer votes Ein because he votes no lynch without saying anything. This is a good call, but its definitely not random.
2)

Jammer's vote on Einlanzers seemed to me like an attempt to push him into an explination of his NL vote, something that seems to me like a completely viable play.

^this.
3)I agree with Lupo here, but so far the main focus of votes on one person are definitely not random. Ein is not helping himself with his 'experience' comment. Looks scummy, IMO.
4) Clar votes
5) Appeal to emotion?
6) VP Baltar, why do you come to this conclusion?
7) Ein is OMGUS, right?
8) This seems indicative of a scum-tell. Turning the attention on himself to someone else. Does anyone agree?

Who do you suspect?

Lupo and VP Baltar to begin with, but Ein has surely turned into suspect #1 now.

If ein was your partner, how would you react on these posts?

This would depend on the opportunity if a 'bus' was available or not. If it is not available, then I would probably be wishy washy about the whole deal with him and distance myself from him as much as possible. If it was available then I would vote him now and use his play above as the reason to place my vote on him.

Was the wagon on Ein too much suddenly?

After taking a look back, no. It was not random and it has substantial evidence against him.
The only downside is what VP brought up in he could be newbtown by voting No lynch.

Vote: Einlanzers

Einlanzers you are now at L-1.
I think a claim is now justified.

[Santos]

EBWOP

I see in #6 I posted the actual quote instead of the link. Still works, even though I fail at BB code!

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I just lost a post I spent an hour working on...so now I'm frakking pissed off. Trying to salvage my thoughts. This is going to be stream of consciousness from stuff I didn't have time to comment on this week (beginning around page 2):

Einlanzers Post 33 rings strong of noobishness to me.

I really don't like El Lupo Loco in Post 42. The game was quickly transitioning out of the RVS and he had two people vote him for unstated reasons. To me, this would be something that a town player would ask about or even strike back as being suspicious. Instead, ELL plays it off with a non-chalant joke. To me this looks like an attempt at 'ignore it and it will go away'.

Right now he seems like a likely candidate, mostly because he seemed to get overly defensive for only one vote on him. The NL vote was odd, but not outright scummy behavior, his sarcasm and defensiveness towards Jammer after the question was poised seems off to me.

Sarcasm is not a scumtell. Lots of players (myself included) can be sarcastic as town or scum. Also, as someone who has some experience with mafia, do you think there is a possibility that ein is just completely inexperienced and doesn't understand what I would call the 'protocal' of mafia?

I guess jammer's logic for voting on me makes sense. Try to get me to talk, but it's a dual-edge sword, I believe he did it because he knows who is scum and who is not.

This makes no sense. You say he has good reason to vote you, but is scum because he does.

And know that I am not scum makes it easy for him to vote for me to be lynched and use logic to make you guys agree with him.

I don't like this sentence either. Just because you are town does not make every person who votes you scum, plus trying to point to you being town sounds a bit forced.

Vote: Cartza

This is ridiculous. You have nothing else to say?

~~~~We interrupt this wall post for an IC moment~~~~
This is the chainsaw defense that Porkens was referring to. It was developed by Tarhalindur. There is another chainsaw defense, which is what would come up if you just searched in the wiki. The mafiawiki is a great place to go if you hear something you aren't sure of what it is when you are playing in your other games. The information there is constantly being updated, and it can be crucial to understanding the game when you get into more complex set-ups.
~~~~Now back to our regularly scheduled programming~~~~

re: No Lynch on Day 1: It is a bad play because a no lynch garners no information for the town to use on Day 2. Even if we mislynch someone on Day 1 (which happens quite often), the town is able to see who was on that lynch and their reasons for being on it. Often times you will find scum jumping on a mislynch for suspicious reasons. If you no lynch, you cannot see this and it is like starting another Day 1 on Day 2.

@Lupo, what are we betting?

This is a filler post and looks like active lurking.

Einlanzers Post 71 does indeed look like town appeasement and a bit of appeal to emotion with his "give me a break" comment.

Not planning to give anyone a break, no matter how new they are.

Be careful about this. Tunneling can very often lead to a mislynch (trust me, I've done it plenty). If you honestly feel that someone is just making noob mistakes, then you should disregard those points as being just that and explain what the problem with the statement is.

Thoughts jammer?

Why ask jammer specifically if he thought it was an AtE?

I see it, and I don't like it. I don't find appeals to emotion to be particularly town-friendly, and it's trying to deflect from logic. I'm keeping my vote where it is for now.

I don't like this really. Actually your whole interaction with the einlanzers case comes off as sheeping along to me. He's the only person you've actively commented on in this game and that is only after other people make comments and you go "I agree!".

Unvote, Vote Claramata

VP Baltar, are you going to include your suspicions in your reread post?

Why, yes. Yes I did.

And why do you ask it to porkens and me. Why not Carla? Or the other players?

Because you two were leading the ein charge pretty hard and hadn't stated any other suspects. Tunneling=not pro-town. I suggest you broaden your horizons because if you're wrong the scum can just sit back and let you lead a mislynch and take the credit for it on Day 2.

How should I post 'more' when I've been posting?

How about some posts with more content? One-liners every once in awhile that you don't really follow up on could be seen as active lurking. However, I do think your question to Lupo is good and needs to be answered post haste.

*knocks on computer screen*
Hey, El Lupo Loco, you missed this a couple times now. I expect an answer in your next post:

Lupo, would you agree or disagree with Einlanzers thoughts on jonny?

If ein was your partner, how would you react on these posts?

If you where mafia, how would you act and response in the day?

These are both loaded questions. Loaded questions=scummy.

~~~~~
Ok as a summary to my suspicions:
I think ein has some scummy statements in there, but mostly I think he is just noobish and is not thinking through what he is saying very thoroughly. I guess I have a soft spot for the underdog, but a lot of the things he says just a matter of having no experience with mafia.

El Lupo Loco is looking pretty suspicious for the way he is avoiding taking an active role in the game, but is still posting pretty regularly. His vote on jammer for "trying to control discussion" or whatever is crap. If you think someone is controlling the game, then post more and take control.

Clara is the most scummy to me, however, for her sheeping along on einlanzers. She has at least some experience with mafia and I would expect her to be able to scumhunt on her own without being led around by jammer.

[Santos]

I thought what you are thinking about Clar, VP. It does seem entirely suspicious that she would vote so fast on Ein, but the fact that Ein condemned himself for the reasons he is being voted is warranted, IMO.

These are both loaded questions. Loaded questions=scummy.

Yes, I thought the same thing. But to humor jammer, I wanted to elaborate and see what he thinks of my answers. And I think if someone chooses not to try and answer them might be refraining from indicting themselves.

El Lupo Loco is looking pretty suspicious for the way he is avoiding taking an active role in the game, but is still posting pretty regularly. His vote on jammer for "trying to control discussion" or whatever is crap. If you think someone is controlling the game, then post more and take control.

I am not going to say that my posts don't appear like active lurking, but they were intended to get a damn response from Lupo other than his 'contentless' posts. I'm glad people are agreeing that he should be held accountable for one question at least.

Clara is the most scummy to me, however, for her sheeping along on einlanzers. She has at least some experience with mafia and I would expect her to be able to scumhunt on her own without being led around by jammer.

Exactly. So why vote her? Do you have questions for her since you think she is the most scummy? She has already stated as to why Ein is scummy. Could it be an early bus on her scum partner?

[VP Baltar]

His ulterior motive is revenge then? Ultimately, his vote is rather a joking vote as opposed to a random vote and I am not as suspicious it now.

So you would have been suspicious if I "random" voted Porkens? Why? (Even though there really isn't such a thing as a random vote unless your roll a die or something)

) VP Baltar, why do you come to this conclusion?

Because we are still very very early in the game and have no reason to be putting someone in lynching range unless we are certain they are scum. I know I am not certain ein is scum, and I feel a lot more can be discussed before we move toward a lynch. Why are you in a hurry to get him to claim and possibly lynch him?

I would like to hear your case against me Santos, since I am in your top three of suspects.

7) Ein is OMGUS, right?
8) This seems indicative of a scum-tell. Turning the attention on himself to someone else. Does anyone agree?

Why are you asking for other people to back up your suspicions?

The only downside is what VP brought up in he could be newbtown by voting No lynch.

I'll enlighten you to another downside: we're on page 4 and are over 2 weeks away from deadline. Again, why are you in such a hurry? If you're suspicious of ELL and myself, wouldn't you want to spend some time questioning us?