Newbie 803 - Game Over.

[VP Baltar]

So why vote her? Do you have questions for her since you think she is the most scummy? She has already stated as to why Ein is scummy. Could it be an early bus on her scum partner?

Why not vote her? I find her actions genuinely scummy. I would expect her to respond to my accusations of her sheeping along without me needing to state direct questions, but if you need it phrased as question I would put it as this:

Clara, why have you focused solely on ein and not brought any original ideas to the table even though you have experience scumhunting and would know how to do this?

re: bussing--meh, didn't really come across to me like that. Could be, but I guess we would know after one of them flips.

[Santos]

Well, its good to speculate what things could and couldn't be regarding a player bussing his/her partner. On the other side, you may be right that she is being an opportunistic scum not trying to offer anything else towards other players who definitely deserve some pressure.

[Santos]

So you would have been suspicious if I "random" voted Porkens? Why? (Even though there really isn't such a thing as a random vote unless your roll a die or something)

I would have been suspicious that your random vote would be on an IC considering you are the only other IC. But you were merely being humorous, right?

I know I am not certain ein is scum, and I feel a lot more can be discussed before we move toward a lynch. Why are you in a hurry to get him to claim and possibly lynch him?

Because the evidence towards him is not looking good. It looks scummy. If he wants retribution, then he should do something in his favor so he is

not

lynched today.

I would like to hear your case against me Santos, since I am in your top three of suspects.

I have a case against you? I asked you why you voted Porkens, but don't think I had an actual case. Why are you saying that I have placed you in my 'top 3' suspects? Did I say that?

Why are you asking for other people to back up your suspicions?

I am asking for what other people think because if they agree or do not agree I can then ask them questions about their thoughts.

If you're suspicious of ELL and myself, wouldn't you want to spend some time questioning us?

Again, I've already got my answers from you. Lupo, however, has not provided a damn thing.

So what is my objective? Get a claim from Ein because he definitely is suspect #1 on my list today and after his claim move on to Lupo because he is suspect #2. I'm not advocating lynching Ein today, am I? Where did I say that? I know I asked for a claim, but I don't recall saying 'I want to lynch Ein today'. The best thing we can do today is get a several suspects on the table and then decide collectively as to who we all agree should go to the rope today.

[VP Baltar]

Yes, I was being humorous with my Porkens vote.

Because the evidence towards him is not looking good. It looks scummy. If he wants retribution, then he should do something in his favor so he is not lynched today.

Ok, it looks scummy, but does that mean you shouldn't really give him a chance at redeeming himself? Why do you want him to claim so far ahead of deadline? Right now it would be very easy for scum to come in and hammer him if he's town and end the day.

I'm not advocating lynching Ein today, am I? Where did I say that? I know I asked for a claim, but I don't recall saying 'I want to lynch Ein today'. The best thing we can do today is get a several suspects on the table and then decide collectively as to who we all agree should go to the rope today.

Putting someone at L-1

is

the same as saying you support their lynch. I've just explained above how easy it would be for scum to come in and kill him. You have facilitated this by putting him at L-1.

Also, are you proposing that we get multiple people to claim today before we make our lynch decision?

have a case against you? I asked you why you voted Porkens, but don't think I had an actual case. Why are you saying that I have placed you in my 'top 3' suspects? Did I say that?

Yes, you listed me as one of the three people you were and/or are suspicious of today.

Who do you suspect?

Lupo and VP Baltar to begin with, but Ein has surely turned into suspect #1 now.

I am asking for what other people think because if they agree or do not agree I can then ask them questions about their thoughts.

Not really. You asked "right?" and "does anyone agree?", which looks like you are trying to get people to back you up. If you wanted someone's opinion on the matter you would have asked specific people and said something like "do you agree or disagree with this?"

[Santos]

Right now it would be very easy for scum to come in and hammer him if he's town and end the day.

Exactly. They could hammer him, but then that would give me the satisfaction of knowing they are the scum because it was noted that he was at lynch minus 1 and that no other vote is warranted because we need him to claim due to his scummy performance.

Putting someone at L-1 is the same as saying you support their lynch. I've just explained above how easy it would be for scum to come in and kill him. You have facilitated this by putting him at L-1.

Also, are you proposing that we get multiple people to claim today before we make our lynch decision?

1) I support the lynch if he refuses to claim. I will unvote if his claim satisfies my suspcions or I will unvote after his claim (regardless of what I think his alignment is) and move on to Lupo.
2)I thought getting at least 1, if not 2 people to claim on Day 1 is perfect way to start? How would this be bad? Well, for one the doctor or cop could be the one we picked on, but the fact that Ein put himself out there like that is his own fault. We cannot ignore the evidence that started this lynch in the first place.

Yes, you listed me as one of the three people you were and/or are suspicious of today.

I'm not sure where I listed you three anywhere, but yes, as I read the thread and reread the thread I have questions I would like to pose towards suspicious players. As I've played mafia here I've grown accustomed to spreading the field of questions to particular players I find suspicious as opposed to tunneling one single player the entire Day. Such instances have gotten me lynched before because no one wanted to work with me because I had such tunnel vision. As I work around the player list, people might begin working with me if I broaden my spectrum of suspects. Ex: Lupo ignoring simple questions asked of him. Other people in the thread agree he should answer the question. This is what I find beneficial as working together as a team to find scum.

Not really. You asked "right?" and "does anyone agree?", which looks like you are trying to get people to back you up. If you wanted someone's opinion on the matter you would have asked specific people and said something like "do you agree or disagree with this?"

Once again, this must be a collaborative effort, VP. If what I present in who I find scummy is backed up by others, then we definitely have something to discuss. If my thoughts are shot down or called unsubstantial, then I will have to drop it and find something else to work on.

[Santos]

Oh and in case its not blatantly obvious for those who might not read the thread and see an instance to put down a vote not realizing it was the hammer vote...

Ein is at L-1! Do not vote until he has returned with a claim and/or a defense!

Do not vote Ein, or you will end the day!

There, that should be apparent enough for the newbies who can't even properly vote, etc.

[Porkens]

Ein is a good lynch. Vote for him now (hammer) and be a hero to the town.

(real post commin' later)

[VP Baltar]

Exactly. They could hammer him, but then that would give me the satisfaction of knowing they are the scum because it was noted that he was at lynch minus 1 and that no other vote is warranted because we need him to claim due to his scummy performance.

Or you could just unvote him for now until town comes to a consensus, and thus we wouldn't be in danger of an unnecessary mislynch that people could claim was accidental. You can always vote him again later.

I thought getting at least 1, if not 2 people to claim on Day 1 is perfect way to start? How would this be bad? Well, for one the doctor or cop could be the one we picked on, but the fact that Ein put himself out there like that is his own fault. We cannot ignore the evidence that started this lynch in the first place.

You point out the flaw in your own plan here. Getting multiple people to claim day one is a really bad move. Outing potential powerroles on D1 is real trouble. Yes, I think the person who would be a lynch for the day should claim, but I don't think a rapidly built wagon without first considering other options should claim. It's too early in the day to be forcing something like that and it could be potentially disaterous.

I'm not sure where I listed you three anywhere

I just quoted where you mentioned it. How are you not seeing that? I would still like you to state exactly what genuine scummy behavior I had done that made you suspicious of me.

Once again, this must be a collaborative effort, VP. If what I present in who I find scummy is backed up by others, then we definitely have something to discuss. If my thoughts are shot down or called unsubstantial, then I will have to drop it and find something else to work on.

Ok, this actually strikes me a bit as backtracking. Above you said that you were asking these types of questions so you could gauge people's opinions, which I interpreted to mean that you were trying to find out peoples' opinions in relation to einlanzers. Now you are saying you were in fact trying to see if someone would back the points you were making. I don't like that at all.

Ein is a good lynch. Vote for him now (hammer) and be a hero to the town.

No. I know what you're trying to do here Porkens, and I don't think it would work out the way you think it would.

[Santos]

Whatever :p

Someone else give it a shot then.

[Porkens]

Baltar, why aren't you voting for Santos?

[jammer]

Nice set of posts, wanted to question some, and then discover that was already questioned.(annoying if you find that out midtime)

Ok as a summary to my suspicions:
I think ein has some scummy statements in there, but mostly I think he is just noobish and is not thinking through what he is saying very thoroughly. I guess I have a soft spot for the underdog, but a lot of the things he says just a matter of having no experience with mafia.

You state that everything that he said is according to being new? There are no scum-tells that can't be soluted without being new?

El Lupo Loco is looking pretty suspicious for the way he is avoiding taking an active role in the game, but is still posting pretty regularly. His vote on jammer for "trying to control discussion" or whatever is crap. If you think someone is controlling the game, then post more and take control.

I don't think I have seen enough to have a proper idea about lupo as well as with cartza.

VP,
For Einzal you say that being new with mafia explains his scumminess, how does being new affect lupo according to you?

Clara is the most scummy to me, however, for her sheeping along on einlanzers. She has at least some experience with mafia and I would expect her to be able to scumhunt on her own without being led around by jammer.

Actually, this gives some thoughs. I though she was hesitant in following at once, but still the second voter. But she didn't add anything new in the discussion or question others. Like to hear a reply from Clara.


Other players let add those.

Porkens: Seems set and sure on a lynch of ein, basically leading this together with me. Haven't seen much attention directed at other players.
Could share a second suspicion on yours, Porkens?

Cartza: Where is he?
jonnydelawelsh: Where is he?
Both of you go and post.

santos: I am not comfortable that he says he brings Ein at L-1 just to get him claim. And then likes to move on towards the next one. Santos motive of just voting to get him claim made me think about unvoting, altrough my suspcions on ein haven't become less.
Can I ask, how many players claim D1 normally, or in your previous games?
Many players claiming D1 doesn't seem optimal play. What good does claiming do, the only reason I see is a sudden PR claim that we better can't lynch that day. L-1 to me, seems close to a claim and die situation. Claiming and moving up to the next one seem to out or atleast closen up the PR's.

VP Baltar, in short: He seems pretty sure that ein is town, and finds the silent bw-follower a bigger suspect.

[VP Baltar]

Baltar, why aren't you voting for Santos?

Because I'd rather be voting for clara right now. Are you concerned with my vote being there? Also, why don't you give some comments on what Santos and I have been discussing?

Happy Scumday!

[VP Baltar]

You state that everything that he said is according to being new? There are no scum-tells that can't be soluted without being new?

I said that everything should be disregarded as him being new? Please quote me where I said that. Also, while you are looking for that quote you can look at my wall post and see where I point out the things that I think are genuinely scummy from him.

VP,
For Einzal you say that being new with mafia explains his scumminess, how does being new affect lupo according to you?

It's a factor for sure, as it always is when I play with new people, but Lupo seems more calculated in his actions and what he says (or doesn't say) in his posts. Ein is more like a VI than anything.

Cartza: Where is he?
jonnydelawelsh: Where is he?

Mod, please prod these players with extreme prejudice

re: Santos and the claiming issue---another issue is that even if you don't direcly out the PRs, getting multiple people to claim narrows down the pool of suspects for scum to go after at night and potentially kill a PR.

I don't mind a PR claiming somewhat early in a newbie game because generally there are not going to be that many days if NKs go through (I think 4 or so), and so claiming for the PR should happen before they are killed. However, getting them to claim or putting them in danger on day one is very poor form.

[jammer]

I said that everything should be disregarded as him being new? Please quote me where I said that. Also, while you are looking for that quote you can look at my wall post and see where I point out the things that I think are genuinely scummy from him.

Ok as a summary to my suspicions:
I think ein has some scummy statements in there, but mostly I think he is just noobish and is not thinking through what he is saying very thoroughly. I guess I have a soft spot for the underdog, but a lot of the things he says just a matter of having no experience with mafia.

You didn't say everything should be disregarded, ok. You say the scummy behaviour is mostly becouse of being new.
What quotes are actually scummy according to you and what are due to being new. Could you elaborate? The only quote where I see you pointing to newbish, is pointing to post 33, the omgus-vote.
Is that the only one, are all newish/scummy, or do you see posts that are due to being new and posts that are just scummy.

It's a factor for sure, as it always is when I play with new people, but Lupo seems more calculated in his actions and what he says (or doesn't say) in his posts. Ein is more like a VI than anything.

*Looks for VI in wiki*
If you see Ein as being a VI, are you then thinking mafia is actively building a case to get him lynched?
And lupo doesn't say much usefull, or is that also where you're pointing at?(active lurking)

[VP Baltar]

What quotes are actually scummy according to you and what are due to being new. Could you elaborate?

I guess jammer's logic for voting on me makes sense. Try to get me to talk, but it's a dual-edge sword, I believe he did it because he knows who is scum and who is not.

This makes no sense. You say he has good reason to vote you, but is scum because he does.

And know that I am not scum makes it easy for him to vote for me to be lynched and use logic to make you guys agree with him.

I don't like this sentence either. Just because you are town does not make every person who votes you scum, plus trying to point to you being town sounds a bit forced.

These two things stick out to me as the scummiest things he has said all game. What I think is coming off noobish about him in particular is his vote for NL early that started the whole pursuit of him. That move shows pretty clearly that he doesn't have much experience with mafia. Also, the way he is going after cases just seems like someone to me who isn't thinking thoroughly rather than someone who has scummy intentions of getting a mislynch.

Of course, it is still very possible that he is noob-scum and is just continually tripping over his keyboard, but on a gut level I don't think that is the case.

If you see Ein as being a VI, are you then thinking mafia is actively building a case to get him lynched?

If I work under the premise that ein is town, then yes, I think there are members of the mafia trying to get him lynched. Right now I'm feeling you are town. I'm a bit suspicious of Porkens' unwillingness to let it go or actively look at other suspects. I would think as a more experienced player he might be saying the same thing I am, but he seems awfully content with the ein lynch in short order. I've already pointed out that I think Clara is the scummiest person on that wagon.

I think this discussion over ein is getting to a point where he needs to come in and speak for himself and who his suspicions are. I'm not going to sit here all day and defend the guy while he lurks.

And lupo doesn't say much usefull, or is that also where you're pointing at?(active lurking)

Yes that is my point. He pops in occasionally and posts things, but they are never of substance. He has also willfully avoided Santos' questions for quite some time now.

[Zorblag]

Vote Count 1.4

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

Einlanzers: 4: jammer (4), Claramata (9), Porkens (10), Santos (12)
jammer: 1: Lupo El Loco (5)
jonnydelawelsh: 1: Einlanzers (11)
Claramata: 1: VP Baltar (13)

Not voting: Cartza, jonnydelawelsh

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Currently Einlanzers would be lynched at deadline. Deadline is 6:00 PM EDT/3:00 PM PDT on Tuesday, July 7th.

Prodding Cartza now. If jonnydelawelsh hasn't posted by this evening he will be prodded then but at this time he's posted in the past 72 hours.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Upon reviewing my ruleset I am prodding jonnydelawelsh now as well.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Santos]

Look at it this way:

If Ein was a cop or a doctor, then he should have been more conservative in his random vote for a no lynch as well as the OMGUS he sent to jammer.

People are saying its suspicious of me to want a claim from him? The man indicted himself. How are we to trust him anymore unless he gives us a claim?

And if he does claim cop or doctor, wouldn't that be good that we at least had him claim before just lynching him?

[VP Baltar]

If Ein was a cop or a doctor, then he should have been more conservative in his random vote for a no lynch as well as the OMGUS he sent to jammer.

Outing a PR on D1 equals very bad for town, it doesn't matter who's to blame for it. I'm not entirely against him claiming, but I think there are other avenues we need to explore before we worry about that. We are a long way from deadline right now. Example: Clara

How are we to trust him anymore unless he gives us a claim?

And how are you to trust him if he claims now? He could simply, you know, lie about it.

It's not out of the question to have him claim today, but it is very important to consider alternatives because there are many ways to lynch scum on day one that don't involve outing PRs.

[Einlanzers]

Alright guys. I flat up give up. And seeing as I don't even get a "Bah" post after I'm lynched. I just wanted to make a post saying goodluck jammer and jonny I hope you guys win it for the scum because this town is lynch crazy towards one of their own and I guess they really don't want to survive this game.

[VP Baltar]

You're not lynched Einlanzers. I'm actually arguing against it, but you're not helping by being pouty and saying you want to quit. I know it's not fun when everyone's on your case, but that's part of the game. All you can do is answer questions and state who you find suspicious and why.

Sometimes you get lynched for bad reasons or because you say something that came out wrong. It just happened to me in a game I was in with Porkens. You just can't take it personally and have to keep playing the game as best as you can.

Do you find anyone apart from jammer and johnny scummy? If so, why?

[jammer]

Alright guys. I flat up give up. And seeing as I don't even get a "Bah" post after I'm lynched. I just wanted to make a post saying goodluck jammer and jonny I hope you guys win it for the scum because this town is lynch crazy towards one of their own and I guess they really don't want to survive this game.

Ok, let me state shortly.

1. Claim, what is your role?
2. What do you find scummy about me? Quote scummy statements of me, there is enought to quote from me. I've indeed not been 'attacked' yet.
3. Post what you think about all players, a short description what you think about every player can show what your thoughs are, and give that way a idea how you think the facts lie.
4. Please, try not to sulk, it really isn't making your case better.
5. If you think something other is usefull please share.

[jammer]

Actual not all the points need to be filled in, but I just want to see some posts with more content from you.

[Claramata]

Clara, why have you focused solely on ein and not brought any original ideas to the table even though you have experience scumhunting and would know how to do this?

I'm sorry if my newbish behavior has come across as scummy to you, but if you actually look you'll see that this is my first game in over three years on here. I'm rusty man.

And I'm focused on Ein because right now he seems like suspicious to me. The NL vote, the OMGUS vote on Jammer, and the appeal to emotion after a wagon had started all come to mind when I'm thinking of scummy behavior to back up my opinion on Ein.

[Santos]

And how are you to trust him if he claims now? He could simply, you know, lie about it.

Aye. This would be the point. If he lies, he is more likely to be counter claimed. If he is not counter claimed, then we are more inclined to believe him.

1) If he claims cop, then we expect results from him.
2) If he is a doctor, then we can expect him to die tonight.

Unvote

Ein, I want you to claim.