Phables: Death Note Mafia (Game Over)

[Lamont_Cranston]

Lamont, what do you think of ignoring players?

Look, if the two of them want to make a short and concise, well-resoned case I'll answer it. I don't want to have to wade through endless invective and crapologic.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Based on the above, can you see why its better just to accept their two votes so the village can move on?

[Lamont_Cranston]

^^^^ Thank you my hero Benmage.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Llama:

Btw, on Zee, you never spoke to this:

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

^^Why you forgot him

Unless you really can put more backing that he belived that he was what he claimed, and played as such, this isnt scummy. If anything this is more of an IIOA post. LC is misinterpreting it pretty badly. To me this is the same as saying 'zwet claims to be that guys wife'.

If he said "Mastin claims to be shin and I believe it", we would be having a different discussion. I do not see anything that suggests this though.

ORLY? And what of his statement "I see what you're doing and I trust your judgement even though I disagree with it"? Doesn't this mean he sees that Mastin is Shinigami? Seems pretty clear to me.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@LC - iso 14, already did it

Not to me. I dont understand what he means here, and zee is the only one who does unless he explained that somewhere I missed. My first thought when mastin claimed that was he was joking, and when he kept it up I started to wonder if he was setting a trap with inside knowledge (IIRC, L knew about shin somewhat in anime).

I don't understand this, can you please explain?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Mastin was a CRAP player (please see my wiki). At least ABR & Gorrad are playing intelligently & logically.

Votecount
mykonian - 6 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Spolium, ortolan, Kise, populartajo)
Lamont_Cranston - 5 (magnus_orion, Kairyuu, Albert B. Rampage, Gorrad, MrBuddyLee)
ZEEnon - 5 (WeyounsLastClone, PhilyEc, mykonian, Stephoscope, Lamont_Cranston)
Gorrad - 2 (Kmd4390, Starbuck)
zwetschenwasser - 1 (Benmage)
magnus_orion - 1 (ZazieR)
Jebus - 1 (zwetschenwasser)
Not voting: Jebus, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon

If you don't talk, I'll do whatever it takes to make you.

With 25 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Hmm... did your wiki page get deleted? It might be my computer, but there apparently is no article for your name.

Yes and because of that I refuse to use the system wiki. Please use the link above that entitled "wiki".

[Lamont_Cranston]

^^^ Wow nice observation.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Actually I enjoyed it. It was like a soap opera:

"The Bold and the Beautiful"

[Lamont_Cranston]

"Like the sands through an hourglass, these are The Days of Our Lives"

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Lamont

Can you remind me why you voted Mastin?

For me Mastin was a policy lynch. He fell under the cetagory of "Crap Play" in my wiki.

The secondary considerations were of course that he could of been scum or shinigami but of course that's a big "WIFOM" game that can never be certain.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Mod: V/LA (see my sig)

Long story short, my computer is fried (fuckshitpiss), posting from my brother's computer. This means I've got no access to any files on my comp, including the text file with all my notes for this game (through page 51).

So pretty depressed right now...

LMAO!

Nothing personal if the above statement is true but from what I've seen of Jebus he is a professional lurker...

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Spoilum:

I look back on Kairyuu's #477 with concern, principally because he didn't consider the possibility of a specified cause of death (for the uninitiated, this is a heavily-used plot device in Death Note). I cannot fathom why a townie familiar with the Death Note story would dismiss that hypothesis and can only presume there is an ulterior motive.

In addition to that, if he was killed by a death note, the implications don't make a bit of sense. The rules post specifically states that as soon as a death note enters the possesion of someone pro-town it wil be destroyed. Therefore, if Mastin was killed by a death note, he was killed by either scum or a Shinigami. Why would an anti-town role kill Mastin when so many people were beginning to suspect him? Seems much more like a foolish policy-vig to me.

QFT. Mastin was a leading wagon at the time he was killed. I was correct in moving my vote from Kai before his answer (lucky me).

Btw, nice catchup post.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Zaze:

Who is the female depicted in your post at the top of the last page?

[Lamont_Cranston]

I would just like to mention that I find the people in ZEEnon's wagon to seem more trustworthy than the people in mykonian's wagon.

I'm not at all sticking up for mykonian, as I kind of see the case against him too. I'm just saying...take a look and see if you agree.

There is no doubt in my mind that Myk is an easy lynch here.

Still nobody has provided me with a strong

data analysis

on why they are voting him.

His general

logic-behavioral dynamic

is a null tell as has already been shown.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Hmmm, kind of strange Gorrad... For some reason I was under the impression that Shinigami couldn't use their death notes to kill. Isn't that why they give them away, so that humans can use them?

@All:

Is there any precedence in the series for Shingami being able to use the death notes they possess themselves?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ewwww....

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok then I seriously want to know how Kai could of missed this. What do you think about my questions concerning specifying kill methods for notes?

Missed what? How does Light finding a death note in the beginning of the series mean that Mastin was killed by scum? Or a death note even? And how does my not thinking that Mastin was killed by a death note imply that I missed anything?

@Lamont

You''ve got nothing to say about this?

I'm sorry I was very tired last night and I find myself stunned at my lack of logic concerning Kai's statement.

The "lucky me" means that I moved my vote while still suspecting him.

Right now I just woke up so I have nothing to say at the moment. I will have to review this whole thing when I can think straight.

[Lamont_Cranston]

In addition to that, if he was killed by a death note, the implications don't make a bit of sense. The rules post specifically states that as soon as a death note enters the possesion of someone pro-town it wil be destroyed. Therefore, if Mastin was killed by a death note, he was killed by either scum or a Shinigami. Why would an anti-town role kill Mastin when so many people were beginning to suspect him? Seems much more like a foolish policy-vig to me.

Or perhaps because of this:

In this game, it is possible to obtain a Death Note in several ways. If a player possessing a Death Note is lynched, a random member of the lynch mob receives the Death Note. If a player possessing a Death Note is killed, the killer (if there are multiple killers, one is chosen at random) receives the Death Note.

*FACEPALM ME *

Ok then I seriously want to know how Kai could of missed this. What do you think about my questions concerning specifying kill methods for notes?

Missed what? How does Light finding a death note in the beginning of the series mean that Mastin was killed by scum? Or a death note even? And how does my not thinking that Mastin was killed by a death note imply that I missed anything?

@Lamont

You''ve got nothing to say about this?

Because the vig-by-death-note method still applies regardless of whether Mastin was a leading wagon or not (because they would kill him to get the death note), the fact that Kai missed how a central role of death notes is to specify a certain kill method also still applies.

In other words, his answer/defense has not adequately addressed the question.

I will have to let him continue to answer...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Unvote Vote Zazier

His spamming posts of fluff is such a waste and a distraction. He's essentially mass defending all scum simply by distracting every other player.

Benmage I heartily have to disagree here. I support what Zaze is doing. I cannot support a Zaze vote here.

I want to commend you for sticking with it to the end and making everything clear regarding your view on Zwet.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Mod please prod Zeenon

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well popul, do you think i'm scum or not?

leaning scum for that terrible vote, i just dont find any protown motivation for voting Zazier.

do you think she is scum?

Yes my vote is a policy vote/lynch which i am not against. Gets rid of unhelpful player with the chance of landing on a scum/anti-town player.

I find her scum hunting helpful and your vote for her a distraction.

I mean 1st day lynches are usually from my experience mislynches town people.

So you're justifying voting for and lynching a townie because "most games do that anyway D1", so no big deal??

FoS Benmage

[Lamont_Cranston]

Unvote Vote Zazier

His spamming posts of fluff is such a waste and a distraction. He's essentially mass defending all scum simply by distracting every other player.

Terrible.

Unvote Vote : Benmage.

I endorse this product/service

unvote, vote: Benmage

Explain how zazie's posts are "fluff", they look like legit questions to me.

She is overspamming the thread making reading it/catching up/ analyzing other people near impossible. I've already quoted a fluff post of hers. Even if a lot of it has significance the sheer overwhelming amount of posts is more of a detriment in my opinion because to many people are able to remain unnoticed and many others are forced into lurkyness because of the mass posts.

I for one feel "forced" into thoughtful analysis and replies by her "fluff" posts. I feel uplifted and more tuned into the game in fact.

The very notion that her posts "force" people into lurking is absurd.

[Lamont_Cranston]

What the fuck, MBL! I remember you posting /significantly/ better content in PvN. ZWET is posting more content than you!

Not to mention it looks like he's got it wrong as well.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I would like to know what the specific scum tells there are here because its not inconsistent logic or erratic behavior. That has been clearly shown to be a null tell; he does this as scum and town interchangeably.

I've been asking for this evidence every day for the past three days and have heard nothing but "gosh Myk is scum".

I've read Myk in ISO and I haven't seen any specific scum tells other than what I mentioned above.

Oh, and one last thing, I'm not protecting Myk, I'm evaluating the wagon and taking responsibility for my vote. It's alot better than mindless BW-ing...

[Lamont_Cranston]

I like seeing her posts. I READ them. I think about them (maybe just briefly) and I move on. But I don't complain about them because they are helpful to the town. I'm trying to figure out why you can't see that...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well you resolved it which is a great thing. I think you can hold your head high and have a sense of accomplishment.

Votecount
mykonian - 6 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Spolium, ortolan, Kise, MrBuddyLee)
ZEEnon - 5 (WeyounsLastClone, PhilyEc, Stephoscope, Lamont_Cranston, Starbuck)
Lamont_Cranston - 3 (Kairyuu, Albert B. Rampage, Gorrad)
Benmage - 2 (populartajo, magnus_orion)
Gorrad - 1 (Kmd4390)
magnus_orion - 1 (ZazieR)
Jebus - 1 (zwetschenwasser)z
Starbuck - 1 (mykonian)
Zazier - 1 (Benmage)
Not voting: Jebus, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon

This is just a simple tennis match. It's not enough to determine if he might be Kira... but Kira hates to lose.

With 25 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think Zwet is sensing that this discussion

does

involve him here somewhere...

[Lamont_Cranston]

^^^ nice post

[Lamont_Cranston]

Not voting: Jebus, semioldguy, Seraphim

Mod please prod Seraph

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Llama:

You still haven't acknowledged how Zee said he was

certain

that Mastin was Shinigami and how nobody should vote for him.

over-defensive

IS a scum tell when its not called for.

I already prodded Zee but thanks I'm not sure if the Mod saw it.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Also @ Llama:

I've been asking for a hard-data analysis of why Myk is scum (that leaves out his erratic behavioral-logic dynamic -- that has been proven a null tell) for the last 4 days.

Since you are such an avid supporter of his wagon why don't you provide it? I would be more than willing to accept it based on its merits.

Until I see it I have read his behavior as a null tell based on the objective evidence already provided.

[Lamont_Cranston]

over-defensive

IS a scum tell when its not called for.

No its not, its possibly the worst scum tell that people actually try to use.

Sorry but this is disproven in real life with actual spies who out themselves unnecessarily due to paranoia. It is just human psychology. Remember the operative phrase here is

uncalled for

.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Llama:

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

^^Why you forgot him

Unless you really can put more backing that he belived that he was what he claimed, and played as such, this isnt scummy. If anything this is more of an IIOA post. LC is misinterpreting it pretty badly. To me this is the same as saying 'zwet claims to be that guys wife'.

If he said "Mastin claims to be shin and I believe it", we would be having a different discussion. I do not see anything that suggests this though.

If ZEE never explains what he meant, I want to hear it from you what you think he meant. As I''m reading here and from the responses he has given that he believed Mastin''s claim.

Votecount
mykonian - 6 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Spolium, ortolan, Kise, MrBuddyLee)
ZEEnon - 5 (WeyounsLastClone, PhilyEc, Stephoscope, Lamont_Cranston, Starbuck)
Lamont_Cranston - 3 (Kairyuu, Albert B. Rampage, Gorrad)
Benmage - 2 (populartajo, magnus_orion)
Gorrad - 1 (Kmd4390)
magnus_orion - 1 (ZazieR)
Jebus - 1 (zwetschenwasser)z
Starbuck - 1 (mykonian)
Zazier - 1 (Benmage)
Not voting: Jebus, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon

He who moves first always wins.

With 25 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Llama:

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

^^Why you forgot him

Unless you really can put more backing that he belived that he was what he claimed, and played as such, this isnt scummy. If anything this is more of an IIOA post. LC is misinterpreting it pretty badly. To me this is the same as saying 'zwet claims to be that guys wife'.

If he said "Mastin claims to be shin and I believe it", we would be having a different discussion. I do not see anything that suggests this though.

If ZEE never explains what he meant, I want to hear it from you what you think he meant. As I''m reading here and from the responses he has given that he believed Mastin''s claim.

I already said this... but I will say it again I guess just in a different way

[zee voice]Let me clarify what happened MO; Mastin claimed Shin, which by the rules is unlynchable and unNKable[/zee voice]

There is NO acceptance/disbelief from him. If anything that is where the scumtell is, not taking a stance. Zee never believed it.

This is being taken out of context. The context in which he made this statement is in reference to a vote by Magnus. He made the statement to persuade Magnus not to vote Mastin. I will provide the quote.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Mastin should be vig-killed

if possible due to wifom.
Since that is my position, voting him is pointless.

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.

They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

Yes. But he claims to have a death note. As per the rules, we must gain and destroy all death notes, and vigging him forces shinigami to drop death note as per the rules.

Followed by

no response

. Here you can clearly see a townie perspective in Magnus vs. the anti-town perspective with Zee.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Llama:

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

^^Why you forgot him

Unless you really can put more backing that he belived that he was what he claimed, and played as such, this isnt scummy. If anything this is more of an IIOA post. LC is misinterpreting it pretty badly. To me this is the same as saying 'zwet claims to be that guys wife'.

If he said "Mastin claims to be shin and I believe it", we would be having a different discussion. I do not see anything that suggests this though.

If ZEE never explains what he meant, I want to hear it from you what you think he meant. As I''m reading here and from the responses he has given that he believed Mastin''s claim.

He clearly believes it here otherwise why would he try to discourage a vig-kill of Mastin?

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Llama:

Btw, on Zee, you never spoke to this:

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

^^Why you forgot him

Unless you really can put more backing that he belived that he was what he claimed, and played as such, this isnt scummy. If anything this is more of an IIOA post. LC is misinterpreting it pretty badly. To me this is the same as saying 'zwet claims to be that guys wife'.

If he said "Mastin claims to be shin and I believe it", we would be having a different discussion. I do not see anything that suggests this though.

ORLY? And what of his statement "I see what you're doing and I trust your judgement even though I disagree with it"? Doesn't this mean he sees that Mastin is Shinigami? Seems pretty clear to me.

[Lamont_Cranston]

This is the over-defensive post to add to the list (for discussion):

Below is the referenced "over-defensive-much" post by Zee:

Lamont, Zeenon, Benmage. You three exhibited these behaviours aye?

I was working on a post right before the kill happened.
You see evidence of that since I posted the next two posted extremely quickly.
Just because people were posting when it happened doesn't mean they are the ones that caused the death.
If your theory about death notes are correct, the player can probably choose the time it occurs.
Do you really think the death note user would post when their kill was supposed to occur? I think not.
I think that the chances are greater that it was a vigilante kill.
You seem to have a lot of inside knowledge.

It clearly appears here that Zee took the bait.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ah, I see why you did that now.
Not sure if it will achieve anything, but i'll trust your judgement.

I state here that I realize why Mastin did what he did.
Not that I necessarily agree that is actually

works

.

EBWOP:

The difference in this game is that he actually claimed to be a Shinigami,
and to me it seemed serious

ly

. Which is why I questioned him.

And yet again he discouraged the vig-kill...

I knew he was town too, we were much too similar.

And then there is this gem of a 180.

His attitude and play towards Mastin is so conflicted, it really is very suspicious. It looks like he:

1) Wants to keep the town from destroying the note
2) Pretends like Mastin wasn't being scummy based on previous games as a bogus excuse
3) Then pretends he knew Mastin was town all along to cover why he discouraged killing him when he finally realized Mastin was town.

Too many things are wrong here with Zee when you stack everything up.

[Lamont_Cranston]

myk is the one who will kill us all.

Case please.

[Lamont_Cranston]

________________________________________________________________________

I finished my last exam today! I'll reply to things tonight when I get back. I promise!
One thing that bugs me is that people are interpreting what I do the wrong way.

I

never

said that Mastin was a shinigami, nor did I think so.
I said that he

claimed

to be a shinigami, but it was quite obvious he was bluffing.

I'm going to look back to see who said that tonight. Glad that misconception is out of the way.

________________________________________________________________________

I'm glad you're back. If you did not think he was Shinigami then why did you discourage the call for a vig vote

by stating he was Shinigami

?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Mastin should be vig-killed

if possible due to wifom.
Since that is my position, voting him is pointless.

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.

They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

Yes. But he claims to have a death note. As per the rules, we must gain and destroy all death notes, and vigging him forces shinigami to drop death note as per the rules.

Followed by

no response

. Here you can clearly see a townie perspective in Magnus vs. the anti-town perspective with Zee.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

Here I state a fact. I thought that Magnus didn't realize that Mastin wouldn't be killed if he actually was a shinigami.

This is not the right answer.

[Lamont_Cranston]

His attitude and play towards Mastin is so conflicted, it really is very suspicious. It looks like he:

1) Wants to keep the town from destroying the note
2) Pretends like Mastin wasn't being scummy based on previous games as a bogus excuse
3) Then pretends he knew Mastin was town all along to cover why he discouraged killing him when he finally realized Mastin was town.

Too many things are wrong here with Zee when you stack everything up.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Wow man I'm so sorry. I have noticed you Mod alot of games

[Lamont_Cranston]

Good question...

You may want to see the post I quoted below that one.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I've just posted almost the entire case on the last page.

And you can take the "me" out of the Mastin. His playstyle was crappy enough to be objectively so. Practically the entire town has said so with a few minor exceptions... 9.9

We will let Zee defend himself now that he's back.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ewwww....

Well now we see clearly what a Modkill looks like.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Vote Zee

[Lamont_Cranston]

___________________________________________________________________________

I would try to look for his "certain" defenders. People that would be more certain of his innocence than would be normal for mere blind villagers...

So instead of looking for scum that were very likely pushing the Mastin lynch, you want us to go to look
at the people that could actually tell he was town, and assume that they were scum with second-hand knowledge?
Sounds to me like you want to steer clear of Mastin-lynch supporter suspicions because you were on it.

___________________________________________________________________________

No. My hunting policy is clear. Mastin was using crap play, those on his wagon have the most justification for their vote and (since there can usually always be scum found off any wagon anyway) I prefer to hunt off the wagon. I believe this makes it easier for me to find scum.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok, I''ll have to go soon, but first:

Mod

- Do we get to hear Phily''s rolename?

I think modkills automatically become anonymous neutral survivors.

No. Somebody knew his role. If this was the case, that player would have to replace out.

Phily must have actually been a neutral survivor.

Could this of been Jebus? Or even ABR(delayed Mod action)?

Votecount
ZEEnon - 2 (Lamont_Cranston, Starbuck)
Gorrad - 1 (Kmd4390)
Lamont_Cranston - 1 (Gorrad)
Benmage - 1 (magnus_orion)
Jebus - 1 (zwetschenwasser)
Not voting: ortolan, cateraction, Kairyuu, mykonian, Benmage, ZazieR, Jebus, populartajo, MrBuddyLee, Skruffs, semioldguy, Kise, Seraphim, Stephoscope, ZEEnon, Spolium, LlamaFluff, WeyounsLastClone

Make sure you eat the core too.

With 24 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok I just woke up. Zee's defense is in some serious need of response. I will attempt to generate this as I wake up.

[Lamont_Cranston]

No. My hunting policy is clear. Mastin was using crap play, those on his wagon have the most justification for their vote and (since there can usually always be scum found off any wagon anyway) I prefer to hunt off the wagon. I believe this makes it easier for me to find scum.

There isn't anything wrong with finding scum off the wagon.
I'm saying that I do not agree with your thinking that the people that defended him are more likely to be scum.

I didn't say his defenders are more likely to be scum. I said his

certain

defenders would be more likely to be scum. Villagers are blind, scum are not. With Mastin's crap play it is far too convenient to just claim "Mastin is obvtown".

I will also point this out in specific later on today which is why you still defending Mastin is not the right move here.

[Lamont_Cranston]

With Mastin's crap play it is far too convenient to just claim "Mastin is obvtown".

Maybe if it were actually crap play.

Please don't make me pile up quotes from almost every player that has said so, it would be a long and ugly post.

[Lamont_Cranston]

POINT #1:

Zee lies about how he sees Mastin's alignment

I

never

said that Mastin was a shinigami, nor did I think so.
I said that he

claimed

to be a shinigami, but it was quite obvious he was bluffing.

The difference in this game is that he actually claimed to be a Shinigami,
and to me it seemed serious

ly

. Which is why I questioned him.

---

Mastin should be vig-killed

if possible due to wifom.
Since that is my position, voting him is pointless.

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.

They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

@Zee:

If Mastin is

not

Shinigami then what would a vig kill do to him? (we all know the answer, "kill him".)

Therefore why point it out to Magnus who is calling for a vig kill if Mastin is

not

a Shinigami??

Why are you lying about this

??

POINT #2

Zee hides his previous knowledge of Mastin's behavior

You obviously don't play a lot of mafia games.

What kind of scum purposely does what Mastin did?

Besides his continuous buddying up to me, there was nothing wrong with his play.

---

ZazieR, you are acting extremely hard to deal with right now.
First of all, I did not claim that I went to check out Mastin's meta to verify.
Second of all, you claim that I

changed

my post.
I wasn't going to post. The reason why I posted was to comment on what I seen.

See the second line in which I state that even without checking it seems very unlikely.
And if you didn't change your post, it means you didn't want to vote Mastin for the same thing you voted him in Open 145 to start with.
So which is it? Did you or did you not want to vote Mastin for the same reason you voted him in Open 145 and why?

The reason why he voted Mastin in the previous game and how he reacted to Mastin in that game. Mastin is doing the exact same things, yet ZEEnon doesn't see it as scummy in this game.

Mastin was scum in Open 145. Why do you not acknowledge this in

this

game?

Why are you hiding from this

?

POINT #3

Zee commits terrible a terrible logical "error" about Mastin's alignment

If I

was

scum like you say I am, I would have known he was town.

WRONG! How do you still make these mistakes after the game has been going on this long?? All you would know is that he is

not scum

. How can you make these logical mistakes??

---

I

seriously

need someone to give me some town meta on Zee that shows he normally plays this way as town because as I understand it, he is an experienced and quality player and should not be playing like this here. Someone please provide this.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I can disagree no matter how many times people say it.

Even yourself? Convenient how you are changing your opinion now.

Just take the easy road and admit he was crap playing.

[Lamont_Cranston]

POINT #1:

Zee lies about how he sees Mastin's alignment

I

never

said that Mastin was a shinigami, nor did I think so.
I said that he

claimed

to be a shinigami, but it was quite obvious he was bluffing.

The difference in this game is that he actually claimed to be a Shinigami,
and to me it seemed serious

ly

. Which is why I questioned him.

The claim seemed serious. Doesn't mean I believed it.

@Zeenon:

If Mastin was

not

a Shinigami then what would a vig kill do to him?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Zeenon: If Mastin was not a Shinigami then what would a vig kill do to him?

Kill him. I never said that it wouldn't did I ?
If I did, please bring it to my attention.

So if it would kill him then you would have no need to point it out to Magnus

UNLESS

you believed he was Shinigami because

OTHERWISE

the vig kill would of went through and there

obviously would be no need to point it out.

This is why you are lying. And

WHY

are you lying is what I want to know...

[Lamont_Cranston]

There's a difference between "annoying" and "crap".

And I need a link to a game suggesting ZEE is an experienced, quality player. I've seen him in two other games. He was replaced in both.

Ok but his style of play is seriously in question here. He is hiding something unless somebody can show me how he commonly behaves like this as town.

[Lamont_Cranston]

There's a difference between "annoying" and "crap".

In this case I'm having trouble seeing the distinction. There is a connection between "annoying" and "crap" that applies here as well.

[Lamont_Cranston]

POINT #2

Zee hides his previous knowledge of Mastin's behavior

You obviously don't play a lot of mafia games.

What kind of scum purposely does what Mastin did?

Besides his continuous buddying up to me, there was nothing wrong with his play.

I said that scum wouldn't do that.
Then I re-affirm that by saying that there was nothing wrong with him play besides buddying up to me.
I don't see what's wrong here. Can you explain?

Mastin was scum in Open 45 and you voted him there for the same behavior

but here he's an angel??

And you

still

deny this

WHY

??

What are you hiding?

[Lamont_Cranston]

ZazieR, you are acting extremely hard to deal with right now.
First of all, I did not claim that I went to check out Mastin's meta to verify.
Second of all, you claim that I

changed

my post.
I wasn't going to post. The reason why I posted was to comment on what I seen.

See the second line in which I state that even without checking it seems very unlikely.
And if you didn't change your post, it means you didn't want to vote Mastin for the same thing you voted him in Open 145 to start with.
So which is it? Did you or did you not want to vote Mastin for the same reason you voted him in Open 145 and why?

The reason why he voted Mastin in the previous game and how he reacted to Mastin in that game. Mastin is doing the exact same things, yet ZEEnon doesn't see it as scummy in this game.

Mastin was scum in Open 145. Why do you not acknowledge this in

this

game?

Why are you hiding from this

?

I answered this so many times it's hurting me just reading it! Kairyuu hinted at the fact that Mastin does it all the time.
My vote for Mastin in Open 145 was

NOT SERIOUS.

I did

NOT

this he was scum because of the self vote that game.

STOP

inferring that I did. His

REACTION

to my vote is what made me sure he was scum.

So therefore he is "obvtown" here?? At best it is a null tell. And you

did

believe he was a Shinigami and you tried to stop the vig vote; why do you have such a problem admitting this??

Can someone point out where all this fits in to Zee's town meta??

[Lamont_Cranston]

There's a difference between "annoying" and "crap".

In this case I'm having trouble seeing the distinction. There is a connection between "annoying" and "crap" that applies here as well.

Annoying- makes the game less fun. Good to eliminate. In Mastin's case, he didn't read as scum, so eliminating him some way other than a lynch was good.

Crap- Poor play. Bad player.

Player that uses Annoying tactics (see above) to draw votes

. Lowers chances of winning. Hell, not even a bad lynch sometimes even as obvtown. This is

NOT

Mastin.

/fixed

[Lamont_Cranston]

Lamont, you must explain to me why scum are likely to claim that mastin is town. I'm sorta stuck on that point.

Nothing personal Magnus but this has been mentioned many times in- thread before my post:

His attitude and play towards Mastin is so conflicted, it really is very suspicious. It looks like he:

1) Wants to keep the town from destroying the note

2) Pretends like Mastin wasn't being scummy based on previous games as a bogus excuse
3) Then pretends he knew Mastin was town all along to cover why he discouraged killing him when he finally realized Mastin was town.

Too many things are wrong here with Zee when you stack everything up.

[Lamont_Cranston]

No. Not fix'd. You completely changed the meaning.

Notice how the two categories

merged

. This is my point.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Do you see how part of his playstyle was to be annoying on purpose?

[Lamont_Cranston]

{Butts in}

By your merged-definition, Lamont, you yourself are = to a crap player.

{Butts out}

Carry on.

LOL! Ummm, well very funny point.

But I am not trying to:

"

draw votes to supposedly 'catch scum

' "

because that's just jackcrappery.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Mastin should be vig-killed

if possible due to wifom.
Since that is my position, voting him is pointless.

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.

They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

@Zee:

If Mastin is

not

Shinigami then what would a vig kill do to him? (we all know the answer, "kill him".)

As I said yesterday, I stated a fact.
He

claimed

to be a shinigami. I stated what would happen if his claim was true.

Correct which means you discouraged his vig kill.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Vote Myk

[Lamont_Cranston]

Mastin should be vig-killed

if possible due to wifom.
Since that is my position, voting him is pointless.

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.

They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

@Zee:

If Mastin is

not

Shinigami then what would a vig kill do to him? (we all know the answer, "kill him".)

As I said yesterday, I stated a fact.
He

claimed

to be a shinigami. I stated what would happen if his claim was true.

Correct which means you discouraged his vig kill.

Lamont's case may be consistent (although, to me, it feels like the interpretation is being forced), I'm not sure yet. He apparantly has an aggravating habit of not explaining his reasoning.
Which is why I pose this question to the quoted statement:
How so?

Mastin should be vig-killed

if possible due to wifom.
Since that is my position, voting him is pointless.

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.

They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

@Zee:

If Mastin is

not

Shinigami then what would a vig kill do to him? (we all know the answer, "kill him".)

Therefore why point it out to Magnus who is calling for a vig kill if Mastin is

not

a Shinigami??

Why are you lying about this

??

[Lamont_Cranston]

But everyone voting zee for what they think is a wierd move regarding thinking mastin was shin

which I know he didnt

, needs to reread myk. Just read his 7 and 90 even.

How can you say this when he

obviously

did know that Mastin

could

be Shinigami and actively tried to quell a call for a vig kill? Are you not reading his posts?

As far as your case on Myk I will research that, thank you.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well on myk we have a few main points against him. You can find many of these points in my iso 0, 1, 4, 5, 6, and 7.

Main points though

1)

Early game myk flounders between MO and LC for votes.

Erratic voting is a null tell with Myk

2) Myk believes (he actually said this unlike zee) that mastin was town. This is highlited in his iso 7.
3)

He votes kise because he believes he misinterprets a rule to attack Mastin.

4)

Changes his vote to spoil on a "scumslip" which is increadably weak

5) Myk realizes that a majority of shin should have a note (46) but that more or less contridicts point 2
6) Tries to stop the town reads on zazie (48)
7) Myk is 90 is basically enough to lynch him for to me. If you people are arguing that zee is scum for lying about a read, you should be ALL over this one. Myk says he thought the scum claim wasnt true. There have been multiple posts where he said he believed that Mastin was shin, most noteably his post 7.


Out of time for now. But everyone voting zee for what they think is a wierd move regarding thinking mastin was shin which I know he didnt, needs to reread myk. Just read his 7 and 90 even.

So that leaves:

2) Myk believes (he actually said this unlike zee) that mastin was town. This is highlited in his iso 7.
5) Myk realizes that a majority of shin should have a note (46) but that more or less contridicts point 2
6) Tries to stop the town reads on zazie (48)
7) Myk is 90 is basically enough to lynch him for to me. If you people are arguing that zee is scum for lying about a read, you should be ALL over this one. Myk says he thought the scum claim wasnt true. There have been multiple posts where he said he believed that Mastin was shin, most noteably his post 7.

Thanks, researching.

[Lamont_Cranston]

So that leaves:

2) Myk believes (he actually said this unlike zee) that mastin was town. This is highlited in his iso 7.
5)

Myk realizes that a majority of shin should have a note (46) but that more or less contridicts point 2

1/3 is 1/3 and this is a crap case against Spoilum which is a null tell imo

6)

Tries to stop the town reads on zazie (48)

This is asking for advice on how to get the same town read; pro-village.

7) Myk is 90 is basically enough to lynch him for to me. If you people are arguing that zee is scum for lying about a read, you should be ALL over this one. Myk says he thought the scum claim wasnt true. There have been multiple posts where he said he believed that Mastin was shin, most noteably his post 7.

---

---

Ok so the following still stands:

2) Myk believes (he actually said this unlike zee) that mastin was town. This is highlited in his iso 7.

Seen that deathnotes give some kind of power, I don't think that is what is happening here. Therefor, I guess that Mastin doesn't have a deathnote.

Mastin, am I right?

This is a very serious case of death note fishing.

7) Myk is 90 is basically enough to lynch him for to me. If you people are arguing that zee is scum for lying about a read, you should be ALL over this one. Myk says he thought the scum claim wasnt true. There have been multiple posts where he said he believed that Mastin was shin, most noteably his post 7.

Llama: I did not want to lynch Mastin because I couldn't see mastin-scum claim scum. He still is a sane person. My defense gets drowned too, as I have tried to explain this many times.

This is an anti-town attitude regarding Mastin and quite possibly saving a juicy death note for the NK.

Ok so I want to commend Llama for a very strong case overall.

The case against Zee and Myk are the same but Myk's is stronger

.

I now am sure that the case against Myk is not just fluff.

Therefore since Llama has a strong town read on Zee,

I'm going to defer to the stronger case

.

There is something wrong with Zee here though. I need meta from him as town to convince me, otherwise there is no way he's town.

Unvote, Vote Myk

[Lamont_Cranston]

LC I actually think is town but at multiple times wouldnt mind wagoning to make the game more enjoyable.

Thanks for sharing, I wuv you too. <3

[Lamont_Cranston]

LC I actually think is town but at multiple times wouldnt mind wagoning to make the game more enjoyable.

Thanks for sharing, I wuv you too. <3

I just really shut down and tend to play bad when people are unneccisarily abbrasive. I dont like playing bad.

Me too the only difference is I don't always shut down and at that time it can get ugly.

The main thing is that its only a game and even though things can get distasteful at times, its nothing personal.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Aha, well its been 100% in-game for me on Mastin; this game. The only time I've ever brought it up is in relation to this game. Outside of this game I have no idea how Mastin plays; I saw him in Medeival Mafia and he was fine (he replaced in). So I'm not really criticizing him just the way he chose to play in this game.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Wow sorry Starbuck :'(

[Lamont_Cranston]

Glad you're back though...

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think alot of what you are being accused of you do normally as town anyway. You did a couple of things in my eyes that raises the odds of you being scum above the baseline percentage. I think you are good player though when I take your playstyle into account.

[Lamont_Cranston]

The last vote count is on page 64 and there Myk has 0 votes. From there I also count 10 Myk votes as of Starbuck's post above.

[Lamont_Cranston]

With 24 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Frankly, I don't think the Myk case holds much water. If y'all want to lynch him, so be it, but I wash my hands of it.

"Guys, I had no part in this lynch. Remember that tomorrow, kthx."

Yes I would require a complete explanation here, otherwise +scum.

[Lamont_Cranston]

There's a bloody good reason I'm not voting either of the two leads. I think both the wagons suck eggs, and one of them is scum driven. I dunno. Maybe I'm missing something here that everyone else seems to see. I just would SERIOUSLY prefer a L_C lynch.

And yeah, KMD's pretty much summed up my thoughts. The wagon sucks. Tomorrow, regardless of the outcome, I want it remembered that I had no part in it. If y'all want to lynch, be my guest, I won't stop y'all. Obviously y'all see SOMETHING I don't, and maybe y'all are right. But I'm not involved.

I would seriously prefer some actual analysis from you instead of empty platitudes...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Also, don't make the mistake of only thinking of the three. Just because Gelus is the mod doesn't mean there's not a character with that flavor, and there ARE other shinigami shown in the universe.

But those were the main ones. Others included Gelus, the King and one other who gave another human a death note in the manga. Those are to me the only ones who besides Shidoh, Ryuk and Rem are possible to be in the game.
But still, none of them seem to me that they would have a wincon in which they need to kill scum. And that was what I wanted to say.

Sidoh was with Mello for a good portion, and therefore had motive to kill Kira.

And yes, I know /precisely/ how I'm sounding. I sound like scum doing blatant distancing. I knew that's how I'd come off when I first said it.

I appreciate your contribution on the Death Note series. Please keep similar substance in all your contributions.

Votecount
mykonian - 10 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Kise, Lamont_Cranston, magnus_orion, WeyounsLastClone, ortolan, Stephoscope, Starbuck, zwetschenwasser)
Lamont_Cranston - 1 (Gorrad)
ZEEnon - 1 (Kmd4390)
Not voting: Kairyuu, mykonian, Benmage, ZazieR, Vi, populartajo, MrBuddyLee, Skruffs, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon, Spolium

Apples from the human world are juicy.

With 24 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Gorrad:

And yeah, KMD's pretty much summed up my thoughts. The wagon sucks. Tomorrow, regardless of the outcome, I want it remembered that I had no part in it. If y'all want to lynch, be my guest, I won't stop y'all. Obviously y'all see SOMETHING I don't, and maybe y'all are right. But I'm not involved.

Why is a pretty decent player sounding like newbscum....

Those are pretty much my thoughts. Only newb scum say "please don't associate me with this lynch (of a townie)". Why did you feel the need to point out that you specifically disliked the myk lynch. Why is you not supporting the wagon more important than the other people now voting myk?

Because I've seen this sort of thing happen time and again.

1) I don't like a wagon
2) I don't comment on it
3) People yell at me for lurking
4) I'm suddenly everyones #1 scum

So now I'm stating precisely why I'm not commenting.

In addition, let me clarify: I do not see the case, but considering how many people DO there's a decent chance that it's an error on my part. So I'm not supporting it because I don't think the case is a good one, and I'm not going against it because if I do and he flips scum, then that's major scum points.

Did I word that in a way that makes sense? It does to me at 2:30 AM.

How about something like this:

"I dont like this wagon BECAUSE... (insert off the top of your head reasons in general) sorry this isn't a monster post but its late."

Instead you have zero substance whatsoever.

[Lamont_Cranston]

He's prob the real Gelus...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ya, this is why I chose not to focus on this point although I like Ort's question to the Mod; I just get the feeling like he's not going to let any info out on it...

My theory is it was Jebus and he replaced out.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@All:

Does anyone have any meta on Gorrad? His "out in the open on purpose scummy" playstyle is unnerving...

Once again I'm stuck thinking some sort of Shinigami with a weird win condition...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Not voting: cateraction, Kairyuu, mykonian, Benmage, ZazieR, Jebus, populartajo, MrBuddyLee, Skruffs, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon, Spolium

@All:

Myk appears to be at L-3 and many people appear not to be voting yet still... I think we should be aware of hammering too soon.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Anyway,

Vote ZEEnon

For reasons already given.

Excellent case btw (I sincerely mean that).

[Lamont_Cranston]

I've made a case against Myko and I find him suspicious. However, I find ZEEnon more suspicious and therefore he has my vote.

Cool, but the rest of us don't find ZEE more suspicious, so at least lynch one of your other suspects today and we'll see about ZEE during D2.

No. Because there are a few players who also find ZEE more suspicious on the Myko wagon.
Besides, list of suspicion:

ZEE..................................................Myko
(and somewhere in between could be Magnus)

I think you and Llama need to go head to head on this one.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Lamont, Wey, Stepho, and Starbuck:

What made you switch from ZEEnon to Myko?

Llama had a great case, was on him from whey back and I just felt convinced. On Myk I originally thought that his case was 100% fluff based on his null-tell behavior which he normally exhibits. When I saw that Llama had a strong case that he had pointed out from very early in the game, I deferred to that case.

I am also convinced by Zaze's case on Zee. I am an avid supporter of either lynch today.

Votecount
mykonian - 11 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Kise, Lamont_Cranston, magnus_orion, WeyounsLastClone, ortolan, Stephoscope, Starbuck, MrBuddyLee, populartajo)
ZEEnon - 2 (Kmd4390, ZazieR)
Lamont_Cranston - 1 (Gorrad)
Not voting: cateraction, Kairyuu, mykonian, Benmage, Vi, Skruffs, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon, Spolium, zwetschenwasser

Just as planned!

With 24 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Unvote, Vote Zeenon

[Lamont_Cranston]

this game is not modded by Tarhalindur

It''s an example. Mod-kills and forced replacements get pointed out by the mods.
Besides, nobody got replaced around that time. The next one was a day later and the previous one was 12 hours earlier. So there was no forced replacement.

Gelus could of waited until after Jebus replaced to shut down the thread etc.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Man, Zaze you like to play it close to the edge. In my book its Jebus.

* adjusts blinders *

[Lamont_Cranston]

unvote

vote: mykonian

You just claimed to have shot someone who you had declared looked town. That doesn't make sense.

Ya and come to think of it, didn't have a death note either...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Remember that massive post about "

You don't have a death note, AMIRITE?

" from Myk?

[Lamont_Cranston]

I know one thing for sure: Scum hate day-vigs with a passion...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Kise lied about ever having been in a game when scum can day talk. That ongoing game from then is now complete and he was scum in that game who could daytalk, so there is no excuse for his statement in my opinion.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Would you mind if I didn't tell if I'm one shot or not?

I didn't ask.

This sounds convincing enough and I can't really fault his logic that he's walking dead after claiming vig. Sooooooooo...

Vote: Lamont_Cranston

[Lamont_Cranston]

Lamont, do you believe Myko''s explanation and why?

Unvote

Ooh, interesting

Genuine claim or last minute attempt to take the vig down with him by getting a counter-claim (don't think I've forgotten 701 )? Only time will tell.

get your theory right. This is the only way a vig can, and will claim: before his lynch.

This sounds about right.

I killed mastin, because he was absolutely hurting the town. In fact,

I believed him to become the lynch

, and because of that, it would make sense to kill him and see what we would get from it. Kind of an early lynch, without a night.

Mastin was a top competing wagon but got nowhere close to being lynched. So, I don't find this answer 100% satisfactory.

Would you mind if I didn't tell if I'm one shot or not?

That myk kid needs to show up and start talking.

this myk kid told he had computer problems, and you are eating his short time.

To the people that still want to lynch me: it is useless. I draw the nightkill to me anyway. Game is already over for me, but at least get a good lynch that is not your claimed powerrole, so you have a chance at getting scum.

The town has two choices to prove if what he is saying is correct:

1) Lynch him now and see what he pops
2) Lynch the next best wagon and let him prove his role tomorrow or lynch him

I find Myk hard to read because of his playstyle. I also find that fact very frustrating.

I think we will have better info by waiting until tomorrow.

@Myk:

Can you please make a scum list?

[Lamont_Cranston]

I'm just noticing it Kise.

I am also having a very hard time getting an accurate read on you for very many different reasons.

Right now I'm concerned with Myk & what the town is going to decide regarding his claimed ability.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Scum would probably leave him alive IF myk is anti-Kira.

Try: "

Ok, Myk tell us who you are going to vig and do so NAO!

"

Carry on.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Why can we not just play this with the optimal play strategy for vig claims I read recently- town nominate the scummiest person for him to vidge each day. If the scummiest person is him, he vidges himself. If he refuses, he gets lynched. That way we don't need to waste a lynch on him today. We need a new wagon imo.

There is no need for the village to nominate him for self-vig because his power will be proven in real-time according to the town's wishes.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I would prefer to have the vig be able to kill who they feel like.

Ok (that person would be mykonian because he is fakeclaiming their role).

Correct. Proven in real-time. He produces no day-vig we produce the rope tomorrow.

[Lamont_Cranston]

With Myk its hard to know whether he's lyiing or not. I think there is plenty of evidence that people have brought up that he's lying though.

[Lamont_Cranston]

It's a stupid lynch though

We risk the fact he might actually be the vig whereas if he isn't he's going to die

soon enough

tomorrow

anyway. Plus we get more info from wagoning someone else to a claim.

/fixed

[Lamont_Cranston]

there's no point in him revealing more than is necessary about the rule

my

our approach is optimal and should be followed

/fixed

[Lamont_Cranston]

Lynching a claimed vig is dumb: If he's a real vig, mafia will kill him. If he's mafia, the real vig will kill him. If he's an SK or fake claiming townie, BOTH groups will probably kill him.

QFT.

[Lamont_Cranston]

It's a stupid lynch though

We risk the fact he might actually be the vig whereas if he isn't he's going to die soon enough anyway. Plus we get more info from wagoning someone else to a claim. I don't like how myk hasn't voted for anyone though after his claim.

Normally, I agree. But due to the rules given in the serie regarding Death Notes, it will be a huge mystery what the scum can do and what they know. That''s why I still consider Myko as lynch.

@Orto:

What do you think of this?

[Lamont_Cranston]

On the other hand,

if he's scum and gets NKed

, we need to hope he was killed by a town vig or else all we did was move the death note if he has one, and if he's Shinigami and gets NKed then we have the same situation, except with a much higher probability of the scum keeping any death note he may have.

The situation isn't nearly as simple as people are assuming. We don't really care so much about killing all of the scum. What we care about is actually hitting the death notes. We can win with scum still alive as long as we take out the notes. Therefore, if we assume myko is scum and has a death note, we MUST lynch him, because any other method of death has a lower chance of eliminating the note.

Very interesting.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Sorry, I kinda forgot, but there isn't much to say at the moment because I think myk is a good choice and this game needs to move to day 2. I think he claimed vig so he wanted to out the person who really shot Mastin.

vig's don't counterclaim. People, get your arguments straight before you accuse me because this one seriously doesn't make sense. I won't counterclaim someone who claims dayvig, I will kill him, without outing myself.

Kai, I forgot you people could be scared of deathnotes, but wouldn't it make sense to wait for tomorrow to see if my intentions are town? You decide, I kill.

In case I get killed by someone else, and I would carry a deathnote, wouldn't that mean that the amount of people able to carry a deathnote gets smaller

?

reacting to Llama in short time.

Based on what Kai & Zaze have said I don't like this one bit.

Unvote, Vote Myk

[Lamont_Cranston]

@myko:

Kai, I forgot you people could be scared of deathnotes, but wouldn't it make sense to wait for tomorrow to see if my intentions are town? You decide, I kill. In case I get killed by someone else, and I would carry a deathnote, wouldn't that mean that the amount of people able to carry a deathnote gets smaller?

While you are correct in that the number of people able to carry them will go down, you are disregarding my other point, the number of deathnotes themselves probably would NOT go down, and given that we're trying to destroy the deathnotes, not eliminate all of the scum, then we should take the opportunity to further our win condition rather than risk letting the one we have in our sights get whisked away by scum. Optimal play is that you die via lynch ASAP.

QFT. Night please.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Uh-oh. I had no idea it was L-1.

[Lamont_Cranston]

At night, you may anonymously give away your Death Note to any player. You may also choose to destroy it.

With a Death Note, you may kill once per night. You may choose whether to have the player die immediately or after a certain amount of posts, and in what way. If no specifications are given, the kill defaults to immediate and death of a heart attack.

If a human obtains a Death Note and he already has one, he must immediately give it away to a player of his choice.

The same rule applies to Shinigami; however, Shinigami wait until the end of the night to give it away.

Wow so many of our questions are answered right now! Grats to Llama on a tremendous catch!

Now we know death notes kill at night and it appears there are two in play right now?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Vote Zeenon

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Myk:

Can you share your win condition with us?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Sure. Right now I'm collecting my note sheets. Looks like 3 death notes.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Other thoughts are that the two kills are from the other 2 (possible) Shinigami. I would favor the idea that Shinigami are responsible for Cat & Zazie's deaths.

@Myk:

What are your thoughts on this? Do you have any evidence to offer us that would support this?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Lamont, see my last post.

My post after that addresses it. I am still catching up todays posts and my notes.

[Lamont_Cranston]

First name that comes to mind is Benmage. He voted Zazie out of dislike for her style, and considered her an annoyance.

Quite early, but Zazie's death hints me to him having a hand in it. As for cat'... Not sure if he had much interaction with anyone. I'll re-read later.

NK speculation is not generally helpful as scum use it to manipulate the town.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Lamont, how sure are you on ZEEnon, or other players even, percentage wise? Can you elaborate on the vote?

My case and Zazier's case on Zee is the same. I will quote both.

[Lamont_Cranston]

POINT #1:

Zee lies about how he sees Mastin's alignment

I

never

said that Mastin was a shinigami, nor did I think so.
I said that he

claimed

to be a shinigami, but it was quite obvious he was bluffing.

The difference in this game is that he actually claimed to be a Shinigami,
and to me it seemed serious

ly

. Which is why I questioned him.

---

Mastin should be vig-killed

if possible due to wifom.
Since that is my position, voting him is pointless.

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.

They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

@Zee:

If Mastin is

not

Shinigami then what would a vig kill do to him? (we all know the answer, "kill him".)

Therefore why point it out to Magnus who is calling for a vig kill if Mastin is

not

a Shinigami??

Why are you lying about this

??

POINT #2

Zee hides his previous knowledge of Mastin's behavior

You obviously don't play a lot of mafia games.

What kind of scum purposely does what Mastin did?

Besides his continuous buddying up to me, there was nothing wrong with his play.

---

ZazieR, you are acting extremely hard to deal with right now.
First of all, I did not claim that I went to check out Mastin's meta to verify.
Second of all, you claim that I

changed

my post.
I wasn't going to post. The reason why I posted was to comment on what I seen.

See the second line in which I state that even without checking it seems very unlikely.
And if you didn't change your post, it means you didn't want to vote Mastin for the same thing you voted him in Open 145 to start with.
So which is it? Did you or did you not want to vote Mastin for the same reason you voted him in Open 145 and why?

The reason why he voted Mastin in the previous game and how he reacted to Mastin in that game. Mastin is doing the exact same things, yet ZEEnon doesn't see it as scummy in this game.

Mastin was scum in Open 145. Why do you not acknowledge this in

this

game?

Why are you hiding from this

?

POINT #3

Zee commits terrible a terrible logical "error" about Mastin's alignment

If I

was

scum like you say I am, I would have known he was town.

WRONG! How do you still make these mistakes after the game has been going on this long?? All you would know is that he is

not scum

. How can you make these logical mistakes??

---

I

seriously

need someone to give me some town meta on Zee that shows he normally plays this way as town because as I understand it, he is an experienced and quality player and should not be playing like this here. Someone please provide this.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Now let me try to find Zazier's version...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Here is Zazier's case on Zeenon in a nutshell:

On ZEEnon:
-No Mastin vote, while he did vote him in Open 145. His reason was that Mastin didn't joke in this game about his claim, while he did so in the other game. However, looking at his first post in this game, he clearly joked about being scum. Yet, no vote.
-Another reason according to ZEEnon why he didn't vote, was because Kai pointed out that Mastin had done this before. However, the time between the posts from Kai and ZEE (as already pointed out) shows that this is very likely a lie, and the second quote he gives from Kai in which Kai states Mastin has done this before is after ZEEnon could have voted Mastin.
ZEEnon als says that nobody had stated in Open 145 that Mastin has done this before, which is not true.
-He claimed to have believed Mastin's shinigami claim. Yet, he didn't vote him.
-Later, Mastin states that he joked about being a shinigami. Again a joke, but once again no vote from ZEEnon.
-His switch from thinking that Mastin was a shinigami to town after Mastin got shot.

The following is from ISO (newest first) #193, 195 & 199:

Ok so then we'vbe established that for some reason he has

purposely

not voted Mastin here and his excuses for not doing so are very poor and false.

This obviuosly looks bad, but what does it actually mean?

The statement from him, "

I see why you are doing it and I'll trust your judgement even though I may not agree with it

" needs to be explained.

@Zee:

Please explain exactly what you meant by that statement.

I think he's scum for it. The only reason why I'm not voting him, is because I'm also suspicious of Myko and Magnus. Both Myko and ZEEnon haven't done anything to lessen my suspicions.
As for

Magnus

, I'd like to see the links of all your completed games. There's one point bothering me a lot, which is why I've kept my vote on him, so I want to check if it's valid or not.

ZazieR, me voting him in Open 145 was just a joke because he claimed scum.
I interpreted his self vote in that game as a joke, and I voted him to fuel it.
His

reaction

to my vote was the problem.
He freaked out, posted a wall-of-text that I didn't bother to read, and then disappeared.

I have a question. Would this be a proper explanation of a difference between this game and Open 145?

No, because he claims that he voted Mastin in Open 145, because Mastin claimed scum and it seemed like a joke. Yet, Mastin also claimed scum in this game in a jokey way as shown in his first post, but ZEEnon didn't vote him for that.
So, there was no difference to me.
Also, to make it more clear, ZEEnon was the one who disappeared after Mastin's wall-o text, not Mastin.

Case is there, based upon posts you've already made, so you don't have to worry that there's no case .

Your case exists entirely of my varying reaction to Mastin's self-vote.
I already explained that Kairyuu alluded to the fact that this is a regular habit of Mastin's,
while in Polygamist Mafia nobody mentioned that. You can go see for yourself whether or not that is the truth.

Also, does this help or actually hurt his defense?

It hurts his defence.
He stated in a different post that he wasn't going to post. He wanted to comment on what he saw. Which means, he wasn't planning to vote Mastin. And he took his Mastin's scum claim serious as he even asked him questions about it. Yet, his reason for not voting Mastin is that Kai stated that Mastin does this all the time. I don't see why he would take Mastin's claim seriously, if he believed Kai with his statement. So I see here something in contrast.
Oh, and as already said by me, it was stated in Open 145 that Mastin does this all the time.

In this game, it is possible to obtain a Death Note in several ways. If a player possessing a Death Note is lynched, a random member of the lynch mob receives the Death Note. If a player possessing a Death Note is killed, the killer (if there are multiple killers, one is chosen at random) receives the Death Note.

On ZEEnon:
-No Mastin vote, while he did vote him in Open 145. His reason was that Mastin didn't joke in this game about his claim, while he did so in the other game. However, looking at his first post in this game, he clearly joked about being scum. Yet, no vote.
-Another reason according to ZEEnon why he didn't vote, was because Kai pointed out that Mastin had done this before. However, the time between the posts from Kai and ZEE (as already pointed out) shows that this is very likely a lie, and the second quote he gives from Kai in which Kai states Mastin has done this before is after ZEEnon could have voted Mastin.
ZEEnon als says that nobody had stated in Open 145 that Mastin has done this before, which is not true.
-He claimed to have believed Mastin's shinigami claim. Yet, he didn't vote him.
-Later, Mastin states that he joked about being a shinigami. Again a joke, but once again no vote from ZEEnon.
-His switch from thinking that Mastin was a shinigami to town after Mastin got shot.

Ok, so you're saying

scum would rather have a shinigami be NK'ed by the scum than lynched during the day

?

That is an excellent scum tell.

That as it gives scum definitly the Death Note if their victim has one.
And he wasn't working towards the town wincon.

Further data can be found in ISO (newest first) #72, #95, #97, #100, #171, #197, #198.

I don't find a reason to go back further since he nutshells it after #199.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Zee

: I am 100% convinced that something is wrong here. Unless somebody shows me meta where he normally plays this "overdefensive much" and with such bad logic defending, I don't see how he can have a town alignment. From my understanding he is supposed to be an experienced player.

I don't like

Gorrad

but what burns me is how he plays "out in the open, in your face" scummy. He looked especially bad at the end of D1.

Kise

really confuses me but I think that's his normal playstyle?

Stepho

hasn't been looking good, same as Kise?

However, on

Spoilum

Admiral

I've had a totally different read. I see him up there with Zazier leading the way with the cutting edge death note analysis; definitely in line with the town win condtion.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well it looks like Llama is trying to line up with 2 for 2 with Stepho here. I stand by my assertion that the case against Zee is very strong & that he is not defending as a simple townie would; there are serious logical inconsistencies in his defense...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well it looks like Llama is trying to line up with 2 for 2 with Stepho here. I stand by my assertion that the case against Zee is very strong & that he is not defending as a simple townie would; there are serious logical inconsistencies in his defense...

Now, what is important is what they gain by being fundamentally wrong in ideas. Are they using fallacies to defend scum, to get town lynched, only when it benifits them? Once you look at those things, then you are able to make a more clear choice about what is scum wrong and what is town wrong. Zee is town wrong.

Really the case against Zee is that he is

scum

wrong trying to save a juicy death note for the NK & then the lies/distortions/logical fallacies that follow make it even more damning of a case.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well it looks like Llama is trying to line up with 2 for 2 with Stepho here. I stand by my assertion that the case against Zee is very strong & that he is not defending as a simple townie would; there are serious logical inconsistencies in his defense...

Now, what is important is what they gain by being fundamentally wrong in ideas. Are they using fallacies to defend scum, to get town lynched, only when it benifits them? Once you look at those things, then you are able to make a more clear choice about what is scum wrong and what is town wrong. Zee is town wrong.

Really the case against Zee is that he is

scum

wrong trying to save a juicy death note for the NK & then the lies/distortions/logical fallacies that follow make it

even more

damning of a case.

You think that without the motive, the case is "damning"? Please clarify.

Generally speaking, when a case is brought against someone and their defense contains lies & logical fallacies it makes the case against them stronger.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well it looks like Llama is trying to line up with 2 for 2 with Stepho here. I stand by my assertion that the case against Zee is very strong & that he is not defending as a simple townie would; there are serious logical inconsistencies in his defense...

Now, what is important is what they gain by being fundamentally wrong in ideas. Are they using fallacies to defend scum, to get town lynched, only when it benifits them? Once you look at those things, then you are able to make a more clear choice about what is scum wrong and what is town wrong. Zee is town wrong.

Really the case against Zee is that he is

scum

wrong trying to save a juicy death note for the NK & then the lies/distortions/logical fallacies that follow make it

even more

damning of a case.

You think that without the motive, the case is "damning"? Please clarify.

Generally speaking, when a case is brought against someone and their defense contains lies & logical fallacies it makes the case against them stronger.

...
Don't side step my questions.
I asked you if, in your opinion, the motive for attempting to preserve a death note not necessary for the case to be, as you put it, "damning".
Its a yes or no question, you understand.

Yes but I hold the question to be a hypothetical which doesn't count for much since the reason the shoddy defense was offered was

because

of the case you mention.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Note 1: I didn't get around to reading during Night.

Note 2: I don't really care. I'm gonna jump into D2 as if it's a new game entirely.

On to some info.

Mmk. So our N1 deaths were:

Zazie, cateraction, and semioldguy.

Of those, the only one I am not scratching my head about is Zazie. Neither of the other two had contributed much. From this, I am going to draw that Zazie was the scum NK, and that cateraction and semi were killed by Shinigami trying to look pro-town.

Following from this, I believe that we need to reread Zazie in iso, because she may have been onto something that few other people were picking up on, in addition to giving off strong pro-town vibes.

Proceeding with that shortly.

Did you happen to read Kise's first post?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Magnus why don't you

examine

my case and see for yourself instead of just jumping on a post of mine mid-stream because it strikes your fancy?

He tried to discourage the vig-vote to save the death note for the night kill and then lied about his opinion of Mastin and used terrible logic to defend all of those actions.

Check my case and Zazier's and see for yourself.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Magnus why don't you

examine

my case and see for yourself instead of just jumping on a post of mine mid-stream because it strikes your fancy?

He tried to discourage the vig-vote to save the death note for the night kill and then lied about his opinion of Mastin and used terrible logic to defend all of those actions.

Check my case and Zazier's and see for yourself.

Because you don't sufficiently answer my questions or are too vague in your reasoning. We've had this miscomunication problem before because of your stubbornness in never clarifying anything.
You state her defence is bad and "shoddy"
How is that an explanation of why her defense is scummy?
("How" questions are answered with the word "by". "Why" questions are answered with the word "because".)

No the problem is you want to play "Mr. Genius Inquisitor" to make yourself look good without having to do any research of your own. The information you seek is there in plain sight but I can tell you don't really care about that; you just want to ask questions and look really kewl

If you

really

cared about the case you would already know the answer but the fact is you've been just skimming along and are trying to look hip with your "inquisitor" act.

Anyway, now that I have pointed out your obvious behavior

I

will do the research for you and paste the information you want to know.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok well I've noticed this pattern with you throughout D1 where you have ignored/missed/for some reason have not seen relevant information, you then make it seem like I'm hiding something and then demand I quit hiding the information that YOU missed.

This is standard MO MO apparently...

[Lamont_Cranston]

However, even if you were correct, and that was my motive, you are not excused from answering my questions.

Yes I am excused if that is your motive. In fact if you keep it up I'm just going to tell you where to find the info and tell you to look it up yourself.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok here are a couple of good examples of a poor defense by Zeenon which I found by just ISO-ing me (newest first). My ISO is also riddled with "

Magnus I already said this

" quotes throughout...

POINT #3

Zee commits terrible a terrible logical "error" about Mastin's alignment

If I

was

scum like you say I am, I would have known he was town.

WRONG! How do you still make these mistakes after the game has been going on this long?? All you would know is that he is

not scum

. How can you make these logical mistakes??

---

I

seriously

need someone to give me some town meta on Zee that shows he normally plays this way as town because as I understand it, he is an experienced and quality player and should not be playing like this here. Someone please provide this.

POINT #1:

Zee lies about how he sees Mastin's alignment

I

never

said that Mastin was a shinigami, nor did I think so.
I said that he

claimed

to be a shinigami, but it was quite obvious he was bluffing.

The difference in this game is that he actually claimed to be a Shinigami,
and to me it seemed serious

ly

. Which is why I questioned him.

The claim seemed serious. Doesn't mean I believed it.

@Zeenon:

If Mastin was

not

a Shinigami then what would a vig kill do to him?

There are also a couple of

other

very good retorts to some of his other defenses which he never came back and answered:

Mastin should be vig-killed

if possible due to wifom.
Since that is my position, voting him is pointless.

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.

They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

@Zee:

If Mastin is

not

Shinigami then what would a vig kill do to him? (we all know the answer, "kill him".)

As I said yesterday, I stated a fact.
He

claimed

to be a shinigami. I stated what would happen if his claim was true.

Correct which means you discouraged his vig kill.

Zeenon: If Mastin was not a Shinigami then what would a vig kill do to him?

Kill him. I never said that it wouldn't did I ?
If I did, please bring it to my attention.

So if it would kill him then you would have no need to point it out to Magnus

UNLESS

you believed he was Shinigami because

OTHERWISE

the vig kill would of went through and there

obviously would be no need to point it out.

This is why you are lying. And

WHY

are you lying is what I want to know...

[Lamont_Cranston]

People seem to be of a very split mind regarding L_C. Can I see someone's case as to why he's protown?

We have yet to see your case on why he isn't...

[Lamont_Cranston]

You don't understand what the word "why" means do you?
Most of thses seem like standard mistakes with no bearing on alignment that you are blowing way out of proportion. Which is why I am forced repeat the question:
WHY does these defenses specificly make zeenon scummy?
Why is answered with the question "because"
Why cannot be answered with examples. Finding examples where the defense was bad does not explain why the poor defense is scummy. This is what I'm asking.
A question that could be answered with examples is a "what" "where" or "when" question.
Before you state your reply to this, please acknowledge you understand what I am saying, and why I feel your response is inadequate. If you feel your response was adequate, then we should discuss the wording of my question, and the way in which the response fits the question.

Please phrase your question in relation to specific evidence already cited.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Why do you refuse to look at the information itself and use it to ask your question?

He clearly believed Mastin was shinigami, clearly tried to discourage the vig vote, used terrible logic to defend those actions and then lurked while questions remained regarding his defense.

Vi points out the meta-argument which I did not inlcude here about open 145 which he also fails to defend against.

[Lamont_Cranston]

At night, you may anonymously give away your Death Note to any player. You may also choose to destroy it.

With a Death Note, you may kill once per night. You may choose whether to have the player die immediately or after a certain amount of posts, and in what way. If no specifications are given, the kill defaults to immediate and death of a heart attack.

If a human obtains a Death Note and he already has one, he must immediately give it away to a player of his choice.

The same rule applies to Shinigami; however, Shinigami wait until the end of the night to give it away.

Wow so many of our questions are answered right now! Grats to Llama on a tremendous catch!

Now we know death notes kill at night and it appears there are two in play right now?

Lammont, why are you congratulating Lllama?

Because he went deep and presented a strong case against Myk and when I examined it I saw that he caught onto Myk very early on, just as Zazier caught onto Zeenon very early on.

[Lamont_Cranston]

O my! So if we are to believe all this, we should try to see if there is some way we can engineer a death note for Myk on the 7th day in exchange for his role peeks...

[Lamont_Cranston]

[quote="Benmage]...[/quote]
Wow. Very nice analysis post. * jaw drops *

[Lamont_Cranston]

ok, you are going way too fast.

someone wanted to know my win condition. I have to have a deathnote at the end of the seventh day, so I can leave to my own world with it, and live. There are two things to that: I want a seventh day, and I want to have a deathnote then. In general, I am nothing but a storage place for a deathnote, as I cant use them without hurting my own chances.

I have reason to believe there are more shinigami, yes.

and I act as a rolecop, and that helps me with looking for a deathnote. zazie didn't have one.

I don't understand Death Note but should we trust him as an exposed Shinigami? I thought they can be good too, or perform good acts..no clue, but should we believe anything he offers?

Well we can certainly begin by using his role peeks don't you think? He is totally unkillable and if he turns out to be genuine we can try to get him a death note on the 7th day if possible...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Hmmm, well I was thinking a personal win where he leaves the game but the main game continues.

But reading Kai's post and portions of yours, I think there is no way we can help him to win. The problem there is that he won't be sharing his peeks either right?

I wish there was some sort of middle ground...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well the way you put it, it sounds like we are almost forced to work together. The only way he gets a note anyway is randomly and OBVIOUSLY he will reveal his townie peeks because his only chance to win is to be on a death note wagon...

Aha, now its clear.

Myko, can you still vote?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Death note wagons can also have scum to inherit the note.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think this issue is becoming a red herring. :s

[Lamont_Cranston]

I don't like how there are three NK's. We really need to pare that down... :/

[Lamont_Cranston]

Still waiting for Orto, Zwet, Skruffs, Starbuck, Seraph, Stepho, & Admiral to whey in...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Vote Lamont.

For talking a lot, but not really saying much. Two most recent posts include comment on nightkills, and an easy shot at people not responding since day 2 started.

Ok Wey I can accept that you are continuing your D1 sentiments here and I will respond briefly.

I have said ALOT today. I think you might just be skimming. I have laid out an entire case against Zee from two different perspectives and voted Zee.

I'm not taking a shot at anyone. I'm pointing out who hasn't weighed in yet as it is an important part of the current game analysis.

All in all, it appears it is

you

that is taking the cheap shot here but as I said, I accept that you are continuing your D1 sentiments which were flimsy anyway.

Oh, btw, my read on you is town aligned.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Kise -> ok here is my problem with Kise. He seems to think Lammont is town, even though he was the big supporter of vigging Mastin. I hate this Kise-Lammont relationship and I think Im into something here. --> Still think this relationship smells bad.

Tajo I responded to this earlier and explained exactly why I backed off Kise. It was pointed out that he had a solid (though terribly flawed) reason for actually believing that Mastin was town. The basis of my case on him was his "over the top" belief in Mastin's townliness. Now I mentioned this already to you once and you never responded. It also feels like you are reaching here and I'm starting to wonder why...

Lamont_Cranston -> top contributer of the I hate Mastin group. I still totally hate his Kise swithc that goes to wanting him dead to even defend him. Will need to iso him to have a more solid opinion about him.

Please do. I would like you to acknowledge my defense.

[Lamont_Cranston]

O my! So if we are to believe all this, we should try to see if there is some way we can engineer a death note for Myk on the 7th day in exchange for his role peeks...

"Lets get the neutral role a killing power so that he will help us out with information we have no way of knowing is accurate!"

Vote: lamont

Me thinks you want to get him a death note so you can kill him and take it, perhaps?
I mean why else would you want help a role that isn't alligned with the town, and is in fact, if his win condition is what he says it is, aligned against the town, for his information, which may or may not be accurate?

This is so sad. Anyone who takes the time to look at the several posts I make on the topic can see the evolution of my thought and as it turns out this is a null-issue and a waste of time. I'm over it and everyone else should be as well.

[Lamont_Cranston]

myko can communicate with scum through the thread. If there are more ways for myko to communicate with scum, then that makes this scenario all the more likely.
The point I'm trying to make is that there is possibly more than one way for myko to gain a death note, and that he's not necessarily a trustworthy source of information because of that.

QFT. Plau all the other points made about how Myk cannot be adequately trusted as a town ally.

[Lamont_Cranston]

*plus

Also its quite scury that anyone possessing a death note can kill at night. There appears to be 3 out there; if we hadn't spiked Myk we would of had FOUR deaths last night.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Whoops.

Vote Zeenon

Votecount
Lamont_Cranston - 4 (WeyounsLastClone, populartajo, magnus_orion, Kairyuu)
Stephoscope - 2 (LlamaFluff, Kmd4390)
Kise - 2 (MrBuddyLee, Benmage)
Starbuck - 1 (Vi)
Benmage - 1 (ZEEnon)
ZEEnon - 1 (Lamont_Cranston)
Not voting: ortolan, zwetschenwasser, mykonian, Skruffs, Starbuck, Kise, Seraphim, Stephoscope, ThAdmiral, Gorrad

Nice to meet you, second L.

With 21 alive, it's 11 to lynch.

[Lamont_Cranston]

WOAH...

This is getting whey out of hand here. I only posted a list of people who haven't posted since the day started. I didn't even use the word "lurker" or "lurking".

It is important that the people that are on that list show up and post. That's it. Its a pro-town list.

[Lamont_Cranston]

While L_C's post 2079 and its aftermath were seven or eight different shades of anti-Town, the recovery was either genuine or very well faked. Based on that and the pro-Town read I had before, I'm going to let it pass this time.

I agree with your analysis here.

For next time, though, some words to live by: LYNCH ALL NONTOWN

Here I mean I was talking about a noteless Shini that will never die but again, this has turned out to be a useless issue and not worth pursuing.

And I wouldn't really place stock in getting them to do favors for you. Playing to win means they don't have your best interest in mind.

I only entertained the idea in the same vein as town would work with masons but I see now this is not going to be possible. At all.

[Lamont_Cranston]

^^^ Well that was totally predictable...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Lamont seems to want to get Myk a Death Note despite the fact that his now confirmed. I really don't like this. Why would you want to do this?

No, I was trying to use his rolecop ability to help the town; similar to a mason recruiting ability. I have since come to understand that this will not be possible.

My theory was that if we could use his rolecop ability in exchange for letting him leave the game with a note it could really help us find scum/notes.

I realize now how that is nothing but an impossible dream and have moved on.

You know I realize now more what was meant by the town wincon; the notes are the only way the Shini/Scum can kill us...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok Wey
Oh, btw, my read on you is town aligned.

Why?

I liked his D1 views on Mastin & how he voted Mastin. I also liked how he called out

ABR

Skruffs for the Jester comment. I think he has the town wincon in mind.

Granted he doesn't contribute much and for some reason he has "Hatin On Lamont" disease but what he has contributed, I like.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Nope. Don't see it.
I see you saying that the town should try to help the win condition of someone who's claimed win condition directly conflicts with that of the towns. When this is pointed out, you are upset, and retract it, as if you didn't already realize this to begin with, which, if it was the case, suggests you aren't town. If you did realize it, it suggests you aren't town as well. Its honestly a no win situation for you. It was scummy no matter how you look at it.

I didn’t see it as the most scummiest thing. An illogical conclusion sure, I was skeptical myself but unsure. A few others people explanation/interpretations helped clear it up.

QFT.

[Lamont_Cranston]

It is important that the people that are on that list show up and post. That's it. Its a pro-town list.

What do you mean? Pro-town that you posted it, or people on the list are pro-town?

No, it is there to help the town. Its not an attack on anyone and it is there for a reference; both my own and everyone elses.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Considering all the rules we have from the notebook, its not logical to assume that those posting at the time have anything to do with the deaths.
What I'm hung up on is why you think that a kira would have to target a shinigami to get their notebook and use it, rather than merely already have one, and be able to simply use it. According to the rules, "kira" is any human being with a notebook who is able to use it.
Is there anything at all to make you speculate that this "kira targeting shinigami" is actually the case?
I mean, I can't even begin to understand where the idea came from.

QFT.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Notebook? Lulz

@mag - Same question can be posed to you; Is there anything concrete to support the idea that a Kira

begins

the game with a death note?

So far, there's no evidence of vigilantes. The rules say that if a killer/Kira kills a player possessing a death note, they'll take it

from that point forward

. Again, what gives the impression that a Kira started off on Day 1 with a death note?

It has already been ascertained that it makes perfect sense flavor-wise for the majority of notes to be out of shingami hands & according to the "Rule of a Death Note", Shinigami can kill at night with them too...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Vi, according to 2041, I'm NOT scummy now. How does that fit in with your saying I always look it?

The reason I "always look scummy" is that not doing so is never top of my to-do list. Catching scum is. Been that way since my first game here. That doesn't mean I don't care about it at all, my earlier posts today should prove that, but it always takes the backseat.

Gorrad, you're doing fine. Your scum image is intact.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Vi, according to 2041, I'm NOT scummy now. How does that fit in with your saying I always look it?

The reason I "always look scummy" is that not doing so is never top of my to-do list. Catching scum is. Been that way since my first game here. That doesn't mean I don't care about it at all, my earlier posts today should prove that, but it always takes the backseat.

Gorrad, you're doing fine. Your scum image is intact.

Oh hardy-har-har. : D

You're not so bad in that department yourself.

LMAO!

[Lamont_Cranston]

Nothing personal, but its really hard to try and push a Zee wagon when there are Kise & Stepho wagons laying around.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Read MBL in iso for a good laugh.

Vote: MrBuddyLee

Compared to the bustling activity he's giving the Wheel of Time thread, I'd say it's healthy to believe something isn't right about him here.

Wow, noted. O_o

[Lamont_Cranston]

Anyone else agree with Gorrad and see the point Kise is making?

Also, anyone seen Skruffs or The Admiral?

Votecount
Lamont_Cranston - 4 (WeyounsLastClone, populartajo, magnus_orion, Kairyuu)
Stephoscope - 2 (LlamaFluff, Kmd4390)
Benmage - 1 (ZEEnon)
ZEEnon - 1 (Lamont_Cranston)
Kise - 1 (Vi)
Vi - 1 (ortolan)
Kmd4390 - 1 (Stephoscope)
MrBuddyLee - 1 (Kise)
Not voting: zwetschenwasser, mykonian, Skruffs, Starbuck, Seraphim, ThAdmiral, Gorrad

I only say things like that because I'm not Kira...

With 21 alive, it's 11 to lynch.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Anyone else agree with Gorrad and see the point Kise is making?

Also, anyone seen Skruffs or The Admiral?

Still catching up for the most part. Is there anything prescient you wish me to comment on?

Well, not at this moment. I hope you get caught up soon as I had a pretty strong town read on your predecessor.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I'd say the likelyhood mastin was killed by a day-vig is around 90%

Ehhh.. help me to understand the confidence in this belief, por favor.

Alright, lets go through what we know.
1. The death note can only submit kills at night.
2. There was no night phase prior to mastin's death.
3. From 1 and 2 we can deduce that mastin was not killed by a death note.
4. Shinigami's kill method involves using a death note, as per flavor and rules, shinigami killing without a death note seems improbable, especially because they cannot be killed
5. Scum kill using death notes and can acquire more death notes
6. I find it unlikely that in addition to the probability of having multiple night kills, scum can also submit day kills.

Since some of these are improbable, but not impossible, it is about 90% likely mastin was day-vigged.

Now, lets speak on a practical level.
Mastin was certainly angering several players, and there existed a reasonable chance to mislynch him. On the other hand, several other players showed a much greater level pro-town-ness, and would be much higher priority targets from a scum-day-kill.

Now, do you plan on telling me what led you to come up with your theory on how nightkills work?

WOW. QFT.

[Lamont_Cranston]

2) Speaking on a personal level, I have absolutely no apprehensions about getting you out of my life. Replacing into this game was a colossal mistake on my part, in part because I never wanted to play another game with you after Election Mafia.

I feel entirely mutual about this actually, I'll do you a favour.

Mod: please replace me

C'mon Orto. We need you to stay...

[Lamont_Cranston]

What motivation would scum have to kill an unkillable player to remove a potential Death Note? Getting rid of all the Death Notes is the town win condition and I don’t know why scum would help us with the town win condition. If a player claims Shinigami, we should lynch them as that is the only way town can be sure to get rid of the potential Death Note

It's up to Gelus who he picks to hold the death note. A townie could hold/destroy it, or an anti-town player could hold it and become Kira. I don't like leaving things up to chance. Leading a lynch on a supposed Shinigami will only lure in the killers to get a chance at holding a Death Note. On the same token, it sucks that probability has to decide whether a vig or a killer win the death note if both parties target the supposed Shinigami. In short, I am saying that

if Mastin WAS genuine on his claim as Shinigami, then

that would only result in a new Kira by the time D2 rolled around

.

I was working on my summary of L_C when I found this.

Can anyone show me a pro-Town motivation for this post... anywhere? If not, why shouldn't we be lynching Kise?

Right I questioned him on that saying he meant to use the word MIGHT instead of WOULD. It is definitely scum-logic if we are to accept it at face value...

[Lamont_Cranston]

I'm sorry, I tried to go a different direction with Zee...

Unvote, Vote Kise

Votecount
Kise - 4 (Vi, Kairyuu, magnus_orion, Lamont_Cranston)
Lamont_Cranston - 2 (WeyounsLastClone, populartajo)
Stephoscope - 2 (LlamaFluff, Kmd4390)
MrBuddyLee - 2 (Kise, mykonian)
Benmage - 1 (ZEEnon)
Vi - 1 (ortolan)
Kmd4390 - 1 (Stephoscope)
Not voting: zwetschenwasser, mykonian, Skruffs, Starbuck, Seraphim, ThAdmiral, Gorrad

Heh, can't get anything by you...

With 21 alive, it's 11 to lynch.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I don't quite follow. Someone care to explain to me why that quote is scummy? I can see bad logic...

Well Gorrad for me its just the final straw. I have tried not to join the Kise wagon all day, basically for the same reasons I didn't want to join the Myk wagon. Vi just reminded me how he has been cutting this profile all game long. Its that quote with a host of others that we all have been noticing.

The reason it is scummy is because he is discouraging the death of a Shinigami in general. The town's wincon

demands

the "death" of Shinigamis. Here he is taking the opposite view. Scum would take that view because they want to save the note the Shingtami would hold for the NK so they would be guaranteed to get it.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Gorrad:

I am saying that if Mastin WAS genuine on his claim as Shinigami, then that

would

only result in a new Kira by the time D2 rolled around.

Please take note that Kise demonstrates he knows that Mastin's killer is not town, meaning that either HE is the killer, and played the fool with the modkill speculation D1 or he is a member of the scumteam that did it (with the same implication about the speculation).

Hmm. Actually, come to think of it,

unvote

@all: Kise almost definitely does not have a death note, which means, scum or not, we don't need to lynch him now. Priority is hitting one of the remaining death notes. Lynching Kise will not accomplish this.

Reasons for this are that if Kise is the one who killed Mastin then he did not use a death note to do it, as death notes only kill at Night, and if he is part of the scumteam that did it (the assumption of a factional kill, during the Day no less, which I do not support, is required for this to be true) then he could possibly have it himself, but the odds are extremely low, as, again, that would require the scum to have a factional daykill.

So, in essence, Kise-wagon is pointless, regardless of his alignment, as it will not further our win con to lynch him.

I don't think people are going to agree that Kise automatically doesn't have a death note here...

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Gorrad: Yes. I did just say that we don't need to kill scum. Killing scum without death notes does not further our win con. Logic says that Kise does not hold a death note, and therefore is a BAD LYNCH. My preference would be to find the scum WITH the note, and kill them. If that happens, then the scum will be rendered harmless at Night, allowing us to focus on lynching Shinigami with notes, and on the off chance that a scum manages to get another death note, they will be quite obvious, since they'll be forced to mindlessly wagon in the hopes that they can get one. We just cross-reference wagon jumpers to nab all of the scum if we actually end up having to do that.

I'm not overly concerned that you find me scummy for my views. Your logic is flawed, to put it simply. If we lynch scum, and they don't have a death note, we don't get any closer to winning. If we lynch scum who DO have a death note, we get closer to winning, because the likelyhood of destroying the note is HIGH. Lynching non-holding scum merely to improve our odds of destroying the note when we DO hit a holder is a waste of time. Destroying notes>lynching scum. If scum =/= note, then lynching is suboptimal. Make a note and then move on.

I repeat, Kise cannot have a death note. Lynching him is sub-optimal regardless of alignment.

Unfortunately we can't know who is a note holder and who isn't without more evidence.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I find it hilarious that I'm trying to stop the lynch of someone I am reasonably sure is scum of some sort. Definitely liking this mechanic.

QFT.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well I would agree with you except I'm not seeing how he is outing himself as Mastin's killer.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Hmm. Giving some more thought to myko's claimed win con leads me to believe that any Shinigami with a similar one (getting to Day X with a note) would do well to NOT use theirs, as all kills speed the end of the game. Therefore, it is

possible

that any Shinigami in that situation thought of that, and didn't kill N1. We may have more than 3 notes left to destroy if that is the case. Also, if any of them DO have that type of win con, optimal play would be to stop using the note they have, to increase the probability of getting to the Day that they need to. This is a win/win for both town and them, since it increases the length of the game for the Shinigami, and decreases the number of possible town deaths/Night.

QFT.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Lamont: He stated definitively that if Mastin was telling the truth about being Shinigami then there would be a new Kira by D2. This means that he knows who Mastin's killer was.

To me it is a way of discouraging the killing of a Shinigami. I also see how a scum could say this to try to sound like town (as if he had the town wincon in mind); so actually it makes alot of sense that scum would do both here so that he could A) Look like town & B) Preserve death notes for the NK. It doesn't have to mean he knows it was scum that killed Mastin...

Besides, death notes only kill at night right (or after a night time)?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ya me too. Both you guys are doing great today.

Votecount
Kise - 6 (Vi, magnus_orion, Lamont_Cranston, Stephoscope, Gorrad, Kairyuu)
Lamont_Cranston - 2 (WeyounsLastClone, populartajo)
Stephoscope - 2 (LlamaFluff, Kmd4390)
MrBuddyLee - 2 (Kise, mykonian)
Benmage - 1 (ZEEnon)
Vi - 1 (ortolan)
Not voting: zwetschenwasser, mykonian, Skruffs, Starbuck, Seraphim, ThAdmiral

Seeing this...makes me feel that Kira and the second Kira have joined forces...

With 21 alive, it's 11 to lynch.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ya me too. Both you guys are doing great today.

They've practically been flirting the whole game.

LOL!

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ya me too. Both you guys are doing great today.

They've practically been flirting the whole game.

Moving along -- You guys are got the impression that I tried to discourage the killing of a Shinigami? Are we forgetting that I thought of Mastin as obvtown?

You mean obvtown as in "don't lynch please"?

In short, I am saying that if Mastin

WAS

genuine on his claim as Shinigami...

Bolded & underlined for emphasis. Had semi not asked about scum's motivation to lynch a Shinigami, I would not have given him my opinion on the matter. No where in my response to SOG did I try to discourage anyone from voting Shinigami; I expressed how I hated the probability that scum could end up with the death note instead of town.

Probability? Your quote was "

WOULD

be another Kira"; that means 100%

I did not make my 1st vote until page 31, well after Mastin died. It was against zwet,

who I suspected was Shinigami, while also considering the possibility that Tajo was scum that wanted to obtain zwet's death note after lynching him

.

So... try again with something other than this case about me discouraging Shinigami lynch mobs.

Are you intentionally deflecting attention from Lamont & KMD?

Given that I don't read them as scum, I don't see the harm in it.

How did you get town (or null?) reads from these two?

Anyone else agree with Gorrad and see the point Kise is making?

(in reference to MrBuddyLee)

No one...? Myk probably killed the credibility.

I have to admit the MBL catch was an awesome post.

[Lamont_Cranston]

You mean obvtown as in "don't lynch please"?

Everyone else is entitled to their own opinion.

"Are we forgetting that

I

thought of Mastin as obvtown?"

No. But you did say that if a shinigami was lynched all it would do is make another Kira...

Probability? Your quote was "

WOULD

be another Kira"; that means 100%

Would, could, should, might, white, shite. Whatever. Why didn't you stick with this case if you thought my use of

would > might = suspicious

; in other words, why wait until a wagon forms?

This is a good point and I have raised it previously. This is only ONE post of very many which has caught my attention as well as others.

Since you brought it up, I will bring a full case.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Well, not at this moment. I hope you get caught up soon as I had a pretty strong town read on your predecessor.

As you should, sir


(i'm up to the 50's)

You're a brave man.

[Lamont_Cranston]

With my unofficial count, Kise has 8 votes which puts him at L-3.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Errrm, looks like L-2...

Claim yo?

[Lamont_Cranston]

OH NO! L-1

CLAIM KISE!

[Lamont_Cranston]

So Tajo just ignores me? Great.. and then votes for zwet, who

undoubtedly

wanted to become a target. Way I see it, Tajo is trying to get 'something' out of lynching zwet. That something? A death note, kiddies.

I do truly believe we have found Shinigami in zwet.

@Tajo - FFS, how come Steph is cool IYO for thinking of both Lamont & Mastin as townies?

Vote: zwetschenwasser

Sorry to draw MORE attention to zwet, but I feel fishy about Tajo jumping to lynch zwet, especially when I think him and I have reached a similar conclusion. Only thing is, Tajo did not give details to accompany his vote.. Not sure which is the better move, though: Lynching a suspected-Shinigami in hopes of destroying their death note, or lynching a suspected-Kira[?]

This is the quoted post where he clearly calls Zwet a Shinigami AND votes him. Therefore, until I can bring a full case:

Unvote

[Lamont_Cranston]

Dam.

I think we have ample evidence something isn't right with MBL. It makes sense to ring him up and see exactly what it is.

Vote MBL

[Lamont_Cranston]

MBL, it has been pointed out that you are deliberately lurking in this game. Your quick appearance with only a few votes also proves this.

Could you please explain why?

[Lamont_Cranston]

MBL, it has been pointed out that you are deliberately lurking in this game. Your quick appearance with only a few votes also proves this.

Could you please explain why?

Actually, it doesn't. Nice try though.
Still, MBL, and a few others, need to post more.

I think it does. The odds of him just "popping" in at this time when he has been proven to be deliberately lurking in this game are pretty slim.

He has been actively posting in another game and lurking here and he needs to explain why.

Moar MBL votes please.

/fixed

[Lamont_Cranston]

I said "also proves this".

Pssst, "I'm trying to scum hunt" kthx.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Yes well deliberate lurking wouldn't have anything to do with it of course...

You have a reputation of being an excellent player. I'd wish you'd post more...

[Lamont_Cranston]

He has been actively posting in another game and lurking here and he needs to explain why.

Moar MBL votes please.

Nothing says desperation wagon quite like the use of hackneyed internet memes.

I have the distinct feeling you've been following along in this game.

Why not try some... I dunno, scumhunting analysis maybe??

[Lamont_Cranston]

If you're interested in town meta on me, you'll find it in Wheel of Time soon enough when I get NKed. Years of experience have taught me that if I make vocal cases too early, I die N1/N2. Better to vote correctly and accumulate more data before shooting my wad, so to speak.

Lamont, I'm curious to know why you're trying to wagon me in particular. I believe I was an early vote on the guy with the Death Note we destroyed, and haven't been rampantly voting for confirmed or apparent townies like you have. Your consistent opportunism--ignoring the important pieces of evidence like vote history and jumping on little things like post frequency and "defensiveness" are signs that you're not truly looking big picture in this game, you're floating looking for excuses to lynch the "right" people.

Actually, I didn't have a town read on your predecessor. Besides being somewhat of a lurker, he didn't appear to have the town wincon in mind either. In your case "post frequency" refers to your

deliberate

lurking in this game. Overdefensiveness & poor defense is

part

of a valid case against someone. I called for votes for you because of your behavior. Amazing how you post volumes now...

The case here is that scum would love to inherit a juicy note from a neutral.

You weren't on the neutral in time, so you try to paint the people who were as scummy? In case you forgot, the object of the game for us good guys is to vote for the guys with the notes too... this is evidence that you're not thinking about the game from a town perspective. Further:

Ok, so you're saying scum would rather have a shinigami be NK'ed by the scum than lynched during the day? That is an excellent scum tell.

So we're scum when we vote people with notes and we're scum when we don't vote people with notes. Got it. You've just attempted to paint everyone in this game as scummy for their behavior surrounding mykonian, because you forgot to give your arguments consistency.

What?? In fact in was your predecessor that discouraged a vote for a claimed Shinigami. You have completely missed the point and misread my quotes. Very simply (just like

Budja

did) scum would rather NK a Shinigami rather than lynch one because that way they are certain to get the death note; BOTH quotes say this. Your case is crap and is the one that reeks from desperation, not mine.

major FOS, Lamont

for trying to play on both sides of the fence in the above two posts

Getting into your votes:
You complimented Kise for his vote on me, but overplayed it, and worse yet, his point was incorrect:

I have to admit the MBL catch was an awesome post.

It was a minor point Kise made about a meta on me in WoT. A game in which my post history was identical to in this game. And my alignment's not yet known in that game, so there's actually no meta to obtain, but for some reason you failed to do that research and wagoned on Kise's incorrect argument, buttering him up by calling it "awesome"? It's clear you didn't even visit the WoT thread to see Kise's argument was incorrect.

You lauded Kise for his incorrect argument, but then more bizarrely:

You left your vote on Kise.

Meanwhile, I prodded him with a vote, then noted his obvtown reactions and got off his wagon before you hopped on and demanded a claim from the guy you just lauded for making an "awesome" case on me. Thoroughly scummalicious.

He made an excellent point on how you were deliberately lurking in this game. I theorized that he could be scum doing this though. Once he flipped town, it only makes sense to pursue an awesome catch. And lookie here, all of a sudden we have War & Peace from MBL...

Also, I think your attacks on ZEE are odd. You find him protown til early June, then do a 180 based on a Phily observation about one post of ZEE's, repost that post of his about six times so no one will miss it and then you say this:

I am willing to lynch Zee but the only thing that bothers me is that he hasn't responded to defend himself.

And yet you weren't willing to vote him to put pressure on even though he only has four votes at the time?

This is correct. I saw an early town read on Zee. It took a deeper analysis than mine to point out the scum tells with Zee. Those combined with his very questionable defense have convinced me he is not town aligned. In fact, you both might be scum buddies here...

Summary: My voting behavior is sound, while yours sucks. Your arguments don't have consistency, they're usually the arguments of others (Llama's, Kise's and Phily's, to name three) and you're not doing the research to make sure they're correct--one of the more common tells indicative of lazy scum.

You've been on way too many townies, you discouraged people from voting Myk, possibly so scum would gain advantage in obtaining the note:

3) I think he will flip town.

I don't believe in OMGUS votes, but thank you for urging me to read your post history. I'm interested in reading your responses to my comments on your play, in possible preparation for a future vote upon you.

Your last post about Myk is also correct in that I saw him as exhibiting his normal behavior but Llama showed me a few things I had missed and caught those things very early on in the game and so I changed my vote.

Your point about "way too many townies" I have been voting for is crap. Try one townie, Kise.

Because of your lurking and bad case here and the anti-town behavior of your predecessor, you're going to have to do more to convince me you're not scum here.

[Lamont_Cranston]

FWIW,

this is the same way ive seen MBL play as town in a different game before he went into jackal ownage mode on day three or so

.

Why did everyone just ignore what I have on steph so far? Just waiting for me to put a little bow on it? You can add the what... third? Fourth? mindless wagon he has been on for his last post too.

Can you please elaborate a bit on this?

[Lamont_Cranston]

FWIW,

this is the same way ive seen MBL play as town in a different game before he went into jackal ownage mode on day three or so

.

Why did everyone just ignore what I have on steph so far? Just waiting for me to put a little bow on it? You can add the what... third? Fourth? mindless wagon he has been on for his last post too.

Can you please elaborate a bit on this?

spies series, its an offsite thing which mixes forum mafia with AIM mafia. Basically both are in effect for the entire game, so you can talk privately and things like that whenever. Played all with aliases and stuff, very elaborate, very tiring to play as scum.

Anyways, MBL was pretty UTR for the first few days of the game, then just showed up all agressive like and scum way overextended themselves to get that lynch since he was such a threat. I think I was the only anti-town not to vote him during that lynch.

I dont agree with people trying to avoid being NKed by lurking or anything like that. I would rather get killed early every game as town since it means im doing decent, in fact I still hold around 50% deaths by N2 as town. This just really isnt against the meta of him that I have, even if it is really limited.

I'd be willing to buy it if the game mechanic wasn't so different. As it is he as been posting up a storm in another game and not posting here hardly at all. That combined with how Budja had such anti-town views and how now he's posting an Encyclopedia Britannica, I think my vote is in the right place.