Open 143: Jungle Republic (Game Over!) before 787

[Percy]

@Percy- So, yes, the RVS can accomplish what you posted. I think my way works faster than RVS. Is this method working sufficiently well?

It was originally fairly indistinguishable from the RVS, except that we're talking game theory rather than who thinks what of whoever's username. I have no idea if it's better, haven't tried it until now. It may suit some people's style more than others.

Now, however, you've said:

Can we get some other relevant, non-biased information on this game? I can't see this going anywhere...

Since you started the chain of discussion (by specifically asking for players to provide meta information), I find this comment a little bizarre.

Re: zwet/Empking meta;
I've played in one game with Empking, and two games with zwet (not counting the one I'm in now). In both of the zwet games I was scum, and having zwet around (as town) was great. In one, I pushed the town to lynch him and totally got away with it, just by spinning his playstyle into one giant scumtell. In the other, he was a welcome distraction. Empking's playstyle is similar to zwet's, being "post one sentence per post, make factual mistakes from skimreading and don't back opinions up", which is also great for the scumteam if he's town.

That's their meta, anyway. I feel that I've seen both of them as town, and whilst it's hard to read them, we should try. If either of them are town, then the scum know they can easily push a mislynch, and we can't afford many of those.

@zwet: What do you think of the meta arguments being brought against you?

@Dej- Wow, that's a pretty compelling argument. Let's see how they perform in this particular game though, before casting any die, so to speak.

Why do you find it compelling if you haven't played with them before? Afterwards you ask for games to read, but I don't understand why you found it compelling in the first place, and as Empking pointed out, the games you referenced haven't even finished, and Empking is still alive! I agree with AA23 - this is the second time when you've stated a strong opinion, and backed away from it. I think you're doing it in a scummy manner.

FoS: Dust

.

Hewitt tends to have the urge to leave games when I get started with Emp and Zwet.

Is this why he hasn't posted?

You ask a question - I answer it - someone votes me for my answer - you join in and express suspicion toward me

Post numbers?

That was you, gorckat. Forgetting who you're voting for and why is a scumtell.

Percy, what are your thoughts on the game?

I'd like to see a little more from those who haven't posted as much. In that vein,

Unvote
Vote: Hewitt

- Time to post, guy!

Vote Count

Dust 5 - AshMC1984, Empking, AceMarksman, zwetschenwasser, AA23
zwetschenwasser 2 - Mixologist, Khamisa
AA23 1 - Gorckat
Empking 1 - dejkha
Khamisa 1 - Percy

Note: with 12 alive it is 7 to lynch,
therefore Dust is -2

[Empking]

I just completed a game with both (as well as Ace). zwet's erratic behavior and Emp's lylo lurking arguably cost the town the game. (My case as scum against Ace was awesome, however ).

No it didn't. Nobody was suspicious of my LyoL lurking and AM was as scummy as hell and me posting wouldn't have changed that.

FoS: All those talking about the Empking and Zwet metas

We've got (good) cases talking about that only serves to stop people responding to them.

[gorckat]

You ask a question - I answer it - someone votes me for my answer - you join in and express suspicion toward me

Post numbers?

That was you, gorckat. Forgetting who you're voting for and why is a scumtell.

I could have quoted that better. I know he wasn't talking about me; I was quoting his digging at Dust.

Since I was reading up as I was composing off and on for like 2 hours in-between hosue chores, I hadn't acquired this nuanced and figured he could perhaps point to exactly what he saw and I could then form my own view of it.

Preview EDIT: Ah- you're saying I was the person Dust was jumping on with. That wasn't clear the way AA23 was posting- he left out names so I didn't see it was my own vote he was referring to.

I just completed a game with both (as well as Ace). zwet's erratic behavior and Emp's lylo lurking arguably cost the town the game. (My case as scum against Ace was awesome, however ).

No it didn't. Nobody was suspicious of my LyoL lurking and AM was as scummy as hell and me posting wouldn't have changed that.

That's why I said arguably and why I want AA23 to clarify the whole 'dig your hole' thing.

[Khamisa]

Mod: There are two zwetschenwassers in the vote count.

I'm all over it

[zwetschenwasser]

I feel special. I'm not answering Percy's question, and I'd like to ask dust to post a completed game where you kill the RVS as town.

[AA23]

Zwet - He might have already mentioned it, but I think he doesn't have any completed games at this time.

Gorckat - The phrase telling Dust that he could be "Digging his hole" was when I was expressing to him that I found several of his actions scummy and wanted him to explain.

If it turned out that it was bad luck at him trying a certain gameplay and not being scum, it would indeed be digging a hole, no? - - I'm still open to hear good reasons for the hypocrisy, flip flopping, people pleasing, and immunity hunting

[zwetschenwasser]

Never mind then. Now I really want dust lynched.

[dejkha]

It's called a "tell". Everyone has them. Figuring out your own makes you better. In this case, you should be thanking Ace. I'm willing to give his info some merit,if he can share how many games he's observed these behaviors, and how many games don't match, as well as their order of occurrence.

It is a tell, but without evidence, I find it hard to believe he'd leave such an obvious trail. So unless there's proof of it, nobody else should consider it as evidence.

Is this why he hasn't posted?

I doubt it. He hasn't posted on the site since he confirmed in this game.

Never mind then. Now I really want dust lynched.

So you'll blindly believe that tell without proof or evidence of any kind other than Ace's word?

FoS: Anyone voting Dust just because they're believing Ace's claim without proof.

Unvote Vote: Zwet

[Empking]

So you'll blindly believe that tell without proof or evidence of any kind other than Ace's word?

You don't think Dust's basic admittance to it makes it a bit more than Ace's word?

[dejkha]

Where did he admit it? I guess I missed that.

[Empking]

The site that Ace is referring to has a policy against letting its members link it out. It's a locally run and operated site.

I would know, O.o'. I run it.

And Ace doesn't understand my scum meta. XP

In context that seems like admitting it to me.

[dejkha]

He said Ace doesn't understand his scum meta. All that implies is that Ace doesn't know what he's talking about one way or another. I'd appreciate clarification from Dust.

[Empking]

He said Ace doesn't understand his scum meta. All that implies is that Ace doesn't know what he's talking about one way or another. I'd appreciate clarification from Dust.

The first line is the important one.

[dejkha]

The first line has nothing to do with his meta, just the site, which we cannot access.

[AA23]

@Dust

It sounds like we're all after clarification from you.

My case is:

1.Hypocrisy
2. Flip Floppery (that's hard to be mad at - it sounds funny when spoken)
3.Trying to manufacture immunity
4. People pleasing (through distancing and the flip floppery...still a great phrase)
5. Misdirection (we're now not only caught up with meta, but meta in the direction of sites we cannot access)
-----------------------------------
Now there's 5 votes on you so I'm not sure if everyone agrees with my case, or has something to say on their own - - this means

You need to clear up the above - and if the above is cleared, you need to determine if scum is on the wagon via lurking and following without presenting an actual case.

So everyone with a vote on Dust - What are your thoughts on this wagon?

Dust - please clarify - I myself have always appreciated a chance to explain, so I'll extend you the same courtesy

[zwetschenwasser]

dejkha, weren't you the one who warned against getting sucked in by emp?

[hewitt]

Alright, no random voting stage. It's stupid, pointless, and stifles proper discussion.

Instead, I'll direct a few questions towards the Town at large? Only Mafia need not answer. ; P

Do you think it's scummy to say that an RVS shouldn't be conducted? What would you prefer as an alternative? Do any of you have interesting meta on other players?

The RVS is good discussion starter but I don't participate in it. If I find a better alternative then I shall employ it. As for the meta, zwets and Empking, yada yada...

Actually, I should probably cool it down with the Emp talk. Hewitt tends to have the urge to leave games when I get started with Emp and Zwet.

LOL I just wish they were gone...

I'm not really seeing the Dust case here. If there's one thing I've learned from my time playing Mafia, it's that buddying isn't really a scumtell anymore. In fact, I've found that scum tend to not communicate so much with each other in the thread. They comment on each other here and there and maybe throw in a few questions to avoid suspicion, so buddying isn't really a tell, but distancing can be. But even that is only a tell if they're distancing themselves from someone that may be lynched.

I don't really see the Dust case either however, I do disagree that buddying isn't a scumtell. I don't think two scum are likely to buddy up but I think it's more likely that a scum player would buddy up with a town player. The town player would be clueless but the scum player would not be (obviously).

Hewitt tends to have the urge to leave games when I get started with Emp and Zwet.

Is this why he hasn't posted?

Naw, that's not the reason why I wasn't posting I just really wasn't on. Didn't even know the game started until today.

[zwetschenwasser]

[Mixologist]

This indicated to me that you were just doing it for the sake of conformity. Is that the case, or no?

Actually, everything I do is for a reason. However, I need to give a "random" reason for "random" voting. zwet is an excellent centerpiece for opening game as it gives me the chance to see how he responds, I'm testing out a theory based upon an ongoing game, and how people respond to him.

unvote zwet

vote Ash

Although it was a random first vote, he seems to have fallen back after everyone has jumped on Dust. Would like to hear from him regarding all this.

[zwetschenwasser]

I see no ash case.

[AA23]

With the statements of "I don't see the dust case" which I've seen twice, I would like for some elaboration as there are 4 other people that seem to disagree.

So that I can refine my case, or (if it need be) withdraw it, I'll need more than fence sitting statements considering the two people that made them were inactive/tied up in negative meta talk.

[AA23]

The case points are in post 89 - - the details of each are in the previous posting assuming you hae taken the time to read them - - please let me know what needs clarification, or what is able to be swiped within reason

[AceMarksman]

I'm sorry guys, I'm trying to get at least a post a day in, but it's hard.

@ quote in 85: dust is toying with me. He has this sort of mafia elitist attitude.

[zwetschenwasser]

I'm cramming for Phys C and I'm managing to post... *ducks*

[AceMarksman]

You're zwet, your posts don't take thought.