Newbie 748 - OhGodMyHamlet - GAME OVER

[Amished]

I'm scared about 19... It didn't take me long to get to 18, but I've been working on that page off and on since noon (7 hours). I'll try to keep getting caught up til then, but from what I've seen so far I'm happily surprised that you all didn't lynch Data on day1. Surprised cause I probably would've voted for him just out of pure frustration, happy that you didn't and I can come in and hopefully salvage his role and help out a bit.

[Amished]

Okay, initial thoughts.

Long posts suck, but they do give plenty to analyze overall.

Secondary thoughts.. >_>

I'll address Ald/Mastin first as I view them to be the biggest contributors and the best posters as well. While I find each to have some valid points, I tend to favor Ald's point of view moreso than Mastins.

Some of the things that particularly stand out to me are diz's concern over 1 vote. Like even Sens said almost immediately into the game, townies shouldn't be *worried* about being the lynch, but should try to strive to make themselves appear pro-town and find scum. Especially on D1 this would ring true, as the town has 2 mislynches to play with, and still not necessarily lose.

I also side with Ald about the role-fishing that's going on, but partially. While I didn't pick up on any fishing by Ald, I viewed Mastin's posts to be more of a hinting to the scum at who he thought was a power-role thereby trying to get them NK'd instead of himself. Not the most townie of intentions, which bumps him below Ald in my view of town players.

In this case, I also agree with Ald in thinking the hammer was scummy. I don't always believe that's the case, but when even *one* person asks to wait for a roleclaim and it's not honored, that is beyond scummy in my eyes. (We had Ald for sure asking for one (roleclaim), and Sens I believe only didn't want a RC as he didn't feel that Josh should've been the lynch for the day. I think Sens was actually close in opinion as to what ... JoeCool's? stance is or was recently. While thinking Josh could be scum, I believe Sens wanted to explore Peace as being scummy before possibly mislynching (which ended up happening)). In this case in particular, since Peace viewed Josh and Joe to be scumbuddies (pairing without a confirmed scum is also rather weak in my opinion, but that's neither here nor there) then Ald's request to wait with the hammer comes from a townie source. Why wouldn't you (scum or town) honor a request from somebody you don't suspect as being scum?

However, I thought Mastin's point against manho singling Mast out of the 3 scummy people was a valid thought. Yes, I can see how him basically being himself with his posts can influence people, we also have a counterpoint that does the same thing to give a view, lessening one person's huge's posts influence. Also, I feel that Mastin and Ald are the two people that are keeping the game going by posting as much as they do, and by going after one of them, it'd eventually make it easier to lurk by lessening chances for a town win. Also, if you do think one person is especially scummy for defending another player, wouldn't you want to try to find out the role of the defendee? If you think they're defending a scum partner, that indicates to me that the person needs defending and they want to keep them around so that they can potentially mislynch today, and still have both of their team around tomorrow; instead of having them act separately, then have the weaker one get picked off a bit more easily and leads to a tougher situation for the loner trying to blend in to everyone for two more days?

Also, since this seemed to be a point of contention between the two as well, I don't really see the scumtell in waiting (at the start), I agree with Ald about it being a nulltell, while I agree with Mastin about Diz wanting to prod the lurkers. If you're excited to play the game, having a lurker not do anything is really frustrating, and one of the only policies I support regarding lynches.

Oddly enough (just a random tidbit about my playstyle), I've also had the fact that I refuse to use FoS's be considered scummy in a previous game. I personally view them to be a wishy-washy way of stating suspicions, so I don't use them ever. Obviously I'm in a vast minority, but you won't see any out of me, and I view others using them to be a null-tell as everyone does seem to use them regardless of role.

One final thing that I wanted to point out about even just this game in particular, regarding the meta on replacees. So far, including me, we've had 5 people replace in. Even if from an outsiders perspective 2 of them were scum that wanted replacing, a majority of the replacements came in as town. That also reminded me, particularly of Mastin's meta on Data, I can see forming a pattern of SensFan, just due to the sheer amount of games that he's played that he's settled into a pattern that he likes. Personally I've had 3 games finish, 2 more than I've been NK'd in, and I'm still trying to find a playstyle that suits me. Regardless of the role I have, I doubt that there's much of a pattern to anything I do yet. Get back to me in a year or two if I stick around and then I might have a reliable pattern, but metagaming newbies, especially if you don't have a specific meta on them being *any* anti-town role just seems ridiculous. I can seem some of the other things that he's said and his actions being thought of as anti-town as I do feel his playstyle was absolute crap, but trying to bury him on meta in his point of his mafia career seems like quite a stretch.

My view on both of them (Ald and Mastin): While I tend to agree more with Ald (and therefore think he is pro-town), both bring up many valid points (that frankly, I refuse to post exactly just in the hopes of keeping this game under 1,000,000 words) concerning the game, and do think that both of them are town-aligned. If they aren't, they sure are giving the rest of us a lot to be able to refute and poke holes in if we take the time to do so.

This obviously narrows down my suspects divided between Peace, Ias(serplat), Manho, and JoeCool. As most of my time has been spent going through Ald's and Mastin's posting, particularly the singling out of Mastin by manho, and the hammer and Peacesells now trying to continue justifying it by bringing SensFans posts up are my two highest suspects, though I do need to take more time and reread all the other members of the town to have a good view on them, at least moreso than what I feel right now.

[manho]

waiting for lasaiki's view and mastin's post. not knowing what to do for now.
final examination coming. but i think i can spare much time for the game.

[OhGodMyLife]

Vote Count:

4 to lynch

Amished: 1 (Mastin)
peacesells: 1 (Alduskkel)

Not Voting: 5 (Serplat, Amished, JoeCool360, manho, peacesells)

Mastin and JoeCool360 have been prodded.

[Amished]

Mod: Datadanne is now me (Amished)

Votecount fixed. -OGML

[Mastin]

Sorry. Fell a little behind. Writing a huge gigantic post to make the newbies miserable some more.

[lasaiki]

Sorry guys I took a couple of days off.

Manho and Alduskkel. Doing a good job as scumhunter.
Joe cool. Why are you unvoting Josh in post 282? He was the only one you find somehow scummy. You give no reason por the unvote. Just a new plan.. But there´s´ no other analisis before unvoting to explain your decision. In 337 you find Josh scummy again?!

And then in 384 you vote for peace. But you didn´t find peace so scummy as Josh and then Data. So you skip Data (now Amished), which was more scummy acording to your scummy list than Peace.

Mastin. Comments and more comments but real content must be somewhere between. Your analisis are hiden behind walls of words and this is not helping me. Just because you write a lot don´t mean you´re town. But it´s very difficult to understand your point when you make comments like this:

Makes a joke in the pre-game. Fine by itself, although let’s just say I show very, very great caution towards jokes. As for the comment about wanting to start up soon, again, this—to me—implies that dizard has no buddy to privately talk to.

contributes hardly nothing to the game. It´s your opinion about jokes.... so what? Ok, but how is this helping to hunt scum?
In summary. No opinion on mastin. I can´t read him. I have no time to read useless comments.

Peace. to vote no-lynch = no good but can be understood as newbie playstile. I won´t take it to much into acount. Townie points for trying to explain himself better and explaining his suspicions.

Amished. Let´s see..... I already said Data was scummy for me because of his lurking and dumm posts but now it´s different...

[Mastin]

Mod: Serplat is now Lasaiki

.

Warning: The following document was over fifteen pages in Microsoft Word. ~6,500 words, give or take a few hundred, in there. Yup, long.

The Newbie Slayer

Ugh... it'll take me ages to get through all this.

*whistles guiltily* Nope, not me. Just go ahead and walk on by, no super massive

black hole sun

posts for you to read.

Yours.

No, it isn’t guilty until proven innocent—it’s a possible scum tell.

If you have anything new to add, feel free to do so, but as it is we're just repeating ourselves and it's only making our posts bigger. Suffice to say my points stand and you have not convinced me that they are wrong.

And you’ve yet to convince me that this move was made by Peace-scum, rather than Peace-town.

I don't see how you're reaching this conclusion.

Because that’s what is there to read. He had a poor choice of words, yes, but it was nothing more than that to it, in my honest opinion.

No, you were saying both were correct. You said right in that quote that it was wrong for two reasons. You did not say either were "theoretical".

Show me where I said both were correct. I said it was wrong for two reasons, yes. I didn’t state that both applied, nor that only one applied. However, the latter is what I had meant.

Link? This sounds like poor Town play overall rather than poor Data play.

Newbie 742. Still, it shows how easily people want Data dead—for a reason, I might add.

And that makes it "generally accepted"? I did not realize you represented the general public, Mastin.

At least for me, yes. Ask other players about this matter, search around. I’m positive others will believe as I do on the matter—it can’t just be my own personal experience.

How so? How could that possibly lead to scum-me finding a power role? What, am I not allowed to mention power roles just because it could be role fishing? Please.

It, again, seemed like something that—if answered—would expose the power roles, hence, a role fish. What if Data had answered for you? Flat-out claimed? Saying that easily could have made him do so, regardless of role, hence, I found that action to be slightly scummy, Alduskkel.

You keep assuming that Data would be lynched on Day 3. I do not think you can make that assumption.

Alright, answer me this: Say, we lynch Peace like you want us to. Who flips town. Who would be your top suspect? The town’s top suspect?

Yea, definitely Data for me. Who I’d almost vote the second day was to start, in all likelihood, if it weren’t for the fact of it being lylo that day. And you?

What's to stop you both being scum and you figured out this defense beforehand?

1: Peace hammered on day one. He had no way of knowing at the time in my beliefs. No conversation between scum is given to replacements, from what I have seen by watching many games with scum replacements.

2: Your attitude on the matter is definitely a guilty-until-proven-innocent on this matter. I find that rather hypocritical.

3: To actually answer, nothing actually stops that from happening, but do you honestly think, at this stage in the game, that I would concoct such a load of ‘bs’ just to keep my supposed partner alive? Nope, not I. I say what I believe. I vote on who I believe to be scum, regardless of my role.

Okay... it was a possibility. Big deal. Should we never ask for a claim when someone is at L-1 because this will always be a possibility? No. And personally, I don't think Josh was stupid enough to do that.

Agreed. It is better to wait for a claim, but this time, it was acceptable to not do so. In almost any other case, I’d say the answer was that we should have—in this case, it would be unfavorable.

But he didn't. So it doesn't matter. It's very key that he specified himself, not some other player or simply a hypothetical person.

The intent was the same—asking about a hypothetical scenario. He meant the situation in general. He easily could have put anyone else’s name in there. The fact that he didn’t, that he used himself

as an

example

just means his choice of words was very poor, indeed.

Ridiculous. At the time we did not know Josh's role or alignment; hence we should consider all roles and alignments when talking about this sort of thing even though we know the specific role and alignment he had.

We should have considered, yes, and to some extent, we did until Peace hammered. In most cases, yes, we should wait. I’m saying that, in this case alone, it was better that we didn’t.

Why do you assume that Josh was an idiot? Newbie game =/= retarded people playing.

You made the assumption that if Josh had claimed a power role, and there was a counter-claim, we’d lynch one, and find scum the next day. Yet Josh was a townie, and had he claimed a power role (and, worse, gotten a CC), Josh probably would have been lynched (hence, an idiot) and the CC shot during the night. The assumption of one scum for one power role would be flawed, as Josh (a townie) would be the idiot you would want to avoid.

I don't think Josh was that dumb.

Yet your whole scenario revolves around Josh claiming and us catching scum because of it, when—in fact—it would have been very, very bad. Why bring up the point of Josh claiming a power role when we know he isn’t one?

We're talking about two different things here. I'm talking about the scenario where Josh was claiming a power role as a scum or an actual power role, you're talking about him claiming a power role as a vanilla townie.

Hmm, fair enough.

Remember right at the beginning of the game where I said there were exceptions to everything? This is just me pointing out that exception.

I fail to see how…

Furthermore, I fail to see how a power role would react in such a way that it hints at their role.

It doesn’t take much—just a simple ‘I agree with Alduskkel’ when this point is quoted is a possible hint at their role.

The night lasted over 3 days. You had tons of time.

Some mods purposefully extend deadlines, even when all night actions were sent in well before the deadline. Whether this is true in this case, or not, I am not positive, but the fact remains, we have no certain way of knowing why the night lasted three days. The fact, though, is simple, in that I was gone for rather some time, and as I got no PM to signify the night coming, hence, if I were to be scum, that would have cut down conversation time considerably.

You could have thought otherwise while spectating and are lying now, to your benefit, if you're scum.

About a point of this serious of nature? Heck no. Only two things can change my opinion on matters I pick up as a spectator: 1: Me receiving a power role, and 2: Cop claims with guilties.

Sometimes, I’ve gotten both at once (well, replaced in as cop, and got guilties my first night of investigating). The fact remains that I have thought, and continue to think, that Peace is a pro-town player. My first post of actual content is loaded with tons of spectator opinions.

Fixed.

Broken.

Okay, yes, it can be applied to Data. So? I still think peacesells is scummier.

And I think Data is.

You really think this is honesty, not hypocrisy?

Yes, yes I do.

dizardin (paraphrased): logical conclusion: accentuate the problem by being more quiet

That is not at all the conclusion that I would reach from reading that post, Alduskkel.

Potato, potato. Wait, that didn't work... curse you text-based communication!!

You will have to clarify this with me, as I failed to understand your meaning, there.

True, though peacesells and manho are contributing without posting walls, which I appreciate.

If I am asked to hold back, I can always do so. I hate, with a passion, holding back, though.

Unfortunately, if everyone posted like you and me are right now, I would have to replace out because I would be unable to keep up.

Then it is a good thing that you and I are the only ones writing novellas in their posts, now, isn’t it?

Or they could be a vanilla townie saying that they agree/disagree. There's no way to tell; ergo, null tell. If I think it's a null tell, I was not rolefishing.

If YOU, the one who I am saying I think was rolefishing, claim to think it’s a null tell, then you’re flat-out saying you’re not rolefishing. But *I* happen to disagree on the matter. I find that things such as that can give answers—even a townie saying they agree/disagree can hint that they aren’t a power role, or a power role can answer and hint that they are. It’s not what they necessarily say; it is how they say it.

Hypothetical, in as much as peacesells was asking if he could "hypothetically" hammer Josh without looking scummy. But, I repeat myself.

He was asking what would happen if anyone would hammer Josh, and if they would look scummy by doing so. He was using himself as just an example.

Erm, on second thought, no. That would make your posts very long indeed.

Glad you understand that even I have my limits, a post length which I won’t intentionally cross.

Newbie 688. You've read this, I'm sure. You know I was one of the most active posters, but also the Mafia Roleblocker.

Oh, yes. And before you and Battle Mage was Question Mark (And Panamon before that) and I, both of whom replaced out, due to at least a slight lack of devotion on my part.

You can see the problem there, can’t you?

You're calling the thought that all input from other players is worthless "perfectly reasonable"? Yeah, right. You might as well just not read any posts except your own then.

What I am saying is that, while I disagree, I can understand what Peace was saying, in that, he had his reasons, and that they were at least—in his eyes—well-founded.

It's not a contradiction, it's hypocrisy.

Seems like someone admitted to hypocrisy, right there, which would, ironically, be hypocritical, as you have said that Dizard’s supposed hypocrisy was scummy.

If you assume the worst, that is.

When you, yourself, say it is hypocritical, what do you expect me to think? The best? [sarcasm]Yea, that’s really going to happen, my friend.[/sarcasm]

I, of course, can safely say it was an honest mistake.

And I can no more believe this is the truth than you can believe my honest opinion as a spectator is truly honest.

From what I've gathered, I convinced him otherwise. Hence his lack of a hammer.

I do agree with you, Alduskkel, in that it wasn’t very scummy at all.

I can see where he's coming from; if he thinks both of you are scum then he'll want to lynch you first.

And, yet, all I can see is possible scum trying to Chainsaw Defense their partner by attacking me… (This assumption would be, of course, assuming Data and Man are both scum. They’re my top two suspects, but only time will tell what they flip)

More "guilty until proven innocent" logic.

You’re one to talk! Really, I’m stating my concern over Man, and how he’s one of my top suspects, with Data being even more suspicious. In this case, at least, it isn’t guilty until innocent logic, but rather, extreme concern until proven otherwise. Your logic on Peace seems to be guilty until proven innocent, though.

Or he could have just run out of things to talk about with his buddy.

We need an abbreviation for this—GUI? GUPI? Something like that. (Take a good guess as to what I’m talking about—not that hard)

Would you say someone was Pro-Town if they said they were Pro-Town? No. This is basically what is going on here.

If they said it, I’d read their posts and try to figure out if this is the case. And, no, that is not what I was saying—I was saying a desire to scum hunt is pro-town. Instead of sitting around, contributing next to nothing, and going off of gut (scummy things to do), he chooses to contribute to the game.

Key word: sometimes.

‘Sometimes’ is often enough.

Assuming that's the scum tell you're talking about here; if I'm mistaken, please correct me.

You are not.

Why is his insight "extremely good"?

1: He contributes a good deal to the game,
2: He adds his opinion to a matter,
3: He gave a new insight to the game, one which I hadn’t considered before.

Especially the third. If his insight is something I hadn’t considered before, I value it greatly.

Okay then. I probably shouldn't fall into the "guilty until proven innocent" mentality myself, but I was just pointing out the possibility.

I think you already did… :/

See above for the jumpy scum thing.

And note how I uncorrected your correction.

As for the second, I think you mean, "at best a misinterpretation, at worst a deliberate twisting of words."

It is true, that it *could* have been a twisting of words, but from my first-hand experience, I find it FAR more likely that it was a misinterpretation. Dizard had no way of knowing of my experience in Newbie 742, where there were misinterpretations throughout the whole game. Or of my previous experience of the people calling out the twisting of words being scum targeting a townie. Yet both are what I have seen, which leads me to be doubtful of ‘twisting word’ claims, and when they show the logic behind it, I still will most likely find it to be a misinterpretation.

And I am of the opinion that so-called misinterpretations are almost always a scum tell, unless the thing being misinterpreted was ambiguously worded, which my post was not. If you disagree with that, give evidence.

How far did you read into Newbie 742? At least up until the point where I claimed cop, that whole GAME is evidence! I was accused of ‘so-called misinterpretations’, which WERE just that—misinterpretations. I threw accusations of misinterpretations at best, scum tells at worst, at other players—and I was wrong about those as well!
Just read up to page five or so; by that point, misinterpretations were already flying from one person to another.

Why do you assume that the Mafia would pick up on that breadcrumb? Isn't pointing that out just making their job easier?

Let me put it this way:
Peace looks scummy in the eyes of most players. It makes it so that the scum can try to lynch them. Who’s to say they didn’t see this breadcrumb first? Try to lynch someone who could be a power role?
Regardless of what Peace is, he looks so scummy that, even if he were to claim a power role, there’s still the chance he’d be lynched, anyway, due to how bad his actions look to most players.

And, let me put it this way: Say, for a moment, that he avoids being lynched. What, then? We lynch someone (town or scum), and go into night. Will the scum kill someone just because I saw this breadcrumb as a spectator? When Peace will be a very easy to lynch character until the end, even with claiming? I find it doubtful.

It's a metaphor for Mafia.

Yes, and he’s explaining why he believes it to be true.

You haven't actually responded to my main point here; that is, dizardin was saying what he considered to be the definition of Mafia, which is in no way a Town tell.

I disagree—it is a town tell, in my eyes. Especially since his play style matches with the metaphor given, showing consistency.

He didn't mention any busyness. He simply said that he was going to be quiet.

There could be any number of reasons he could have fallen silent. You just assumed the worst, by thinking he was doing it just to be quiet.

Okay, then how about a dragon going to a village that's on fire, and saying "Hey, you guys have a real fire problem. I will help by setting more things on fire."

Bah. If not helpful, fighting fire with fire is just too awesome to resist.
Though, on a slightly more serious note, people *do* fight fires with fire, controlling the fires they set to starve out the fire.

On a game-related note, I still find that metaphor to be inaccurate.

and Mastin saying that's Pro-Town.

If I see something I think is pro-town, I point it out. If I see something I think is pro-scum, I’ll say it.

dizardin doesn't show anything here. He dodges the question,

giving an answer but giving no evidence to support it.

He's dodging the question because he's giving a non-answer.

‘Non-answer’ and ‘answer without evidence’ are two ENTIRELY different things. One is something based off of honor/word alone. The other is something you see as a scum tell. The two are not one and the same, and this discrepancy in your opinion has been noted.

And, if your scenario is true, and dizardin had no refutation, then that's scummy because an accusation was made that he was unable to defend against.

In some cases, yes, but I’ve seen pro-town players accept their defeat in several games, when they were just that—pro-town players.

How is he "show[ing] frustration at the fact that the scum are acting the way they are"?

Should’ve put that in quotation marks. He showed frustration at the players he thought were scum (You and Sensfan) acting the way that they had been, and that he couldn’t get the rest of the town to listen.

You were blatantly pointing out a possible power role tell to the Mafia.

No, I was pointing out something in Peace’s defense. The tell was there for all to see, if they were looking. Good scum would’ve already picked up on it. Peace could be a target for a lynch BECAUSE they picked up on it. My opinion was that of a spectator; if I, someone who wasn’t even a player at the time, saw it, at least one scum probably would have. The only way I don’t see the scum having picked up on it is if the scum are both new players (in particular, Manho and Data), which explains why he wasn’t killed after this tell was made.
The opinion did change later, of course, in that I became far less certain that Dizard was a power role. As a spectator, I was cursing at Dizard’s tells, saying to myself (as I was not a player), “*Censored!* I hope I don’t replace in as town if the lynch on Dizard goes through…he’s dropped so many power role tells that it would surprise me to see otherwise…and the town would be rather screwed, with a power role down.”

Later actions have somewhat altered my opinion, but it was what I have thought. And, again, I point this out:
No matter who is lynched, and when, as long as Peace lives, at least one player alive is likely going to try and get him lynched. So for the scum to night kill him would be simply suicidal—even if he is what I had originally suspected, a power role.

See above.

And read my explanation—I thought, at the time, Dizard was almost certainly going to be a power role. That changed later on, and I was far less certain, but the fact that he made those tells leaves several possibilities:
1: The scum found them, and are attacking him, hoping to get a lynch on a power role.
2: The scum missed them, and only now found them. Peace avoids getting lynched, and is night killed. VERY doubtful, given 1 and 3.
3: The scum missed them, and only now found them. Yet instead of killing Peace, they instead try to keep our favorite Village Idiot alive to get an easy lynch, and an easier win.
4: A very small possibility, in that Peace IS scum and dropped those tells, obviously avoiding the night kill, and possibly avoiding a lynch.

As I strongly believe 1 or 3 to be very probable scenarios, there was no true harm in pointing out the possible role hints.

If people can't defend themselves from accusations that point to them being scum, they should be lynched.

Precisely why they are village idiots. I’ve seen them before in games. Caleb/ppp in Newbie 742 was barely defending his actions at all. He wasn’t lynched day two due to my claim, and wasn’t lynched day three, despite him having little to no defense, yet the scum having rather good defense and offense.

My experience has shown me that this would probably be the case this time. If they can’t defend, they’re attacked mercilessly—unfair attacks, which are likely the scum picking off an easy target like Peace. Attitudes like that are why many games go into lylo, when a different course of action would lead to the lynch of scum.

And say, for a moment, you disagree with all of the above—well, then, my friend, I can just say the same about Data, who practically flat-out refused to defend himself. If you’re using this logic for Peace, apply it to Data as well, or I will consider it rather the scum tell.

Concern and frustration? More like anger. Basically, dizardin throws a tantrum and then you call it a town tell.

He was showing concern at the play of an IC not being what it should be—and that’s a town tell. His frustration was definitely understandable, and trust me when I say that I’ve seen townies freak out and lose their cool far more often than scum. Hence, it was a town tell, in my mind.

Why do you find it more likely that newbie Town would do this?

To warn people of their tactics probably not being what is expected of them.

I can easily imagine Scum admitting to being a newbie.

And what stops town from admitting the exact same thing?

It's honesty on a minor point; really, it helps scum, because they can later play the newbie card and not have it come out of the blue.

Yes, it helps scum—by making them realize who’s such an easy target, that is…

But the problem is, where do you draw the line between scum and village idiot? Furthermore, I do not think peacesells is a VI. He has been making good points lately.

Where I weigh the evidence, and come to my personal conclusion. I’ve drawn the line, and Peace fell on the town side of it, no matter how I tried to look at the game. Your cases are good, but due to conflictions in experience, I can say that I can’t see your point of him being scum.
And if he’s making good points, Alduskkel, why are you still voting him? Good points are town tells, in my mind.

Again, where do you draw the line between scum and VI? Also, I like how you imply I'm scum here. I thought you said I was pro-Town?

The implication was accidental. No, I don’t think you’re scum. Your persistence in a Peace lynch I find rather scummy. While I can’t see your point of him being scum (as in, when I try to look at it from your perspective, my experience prevents me from seeing the same thing as you do), I can still see why you could think he is (meaning, despite all of it, I can understand why it is your opinion, even though I don’t share it) as a pro-town player, hence, while it is scummy—in my eyes—it doesn’t make you look like scum. Scummy != scum.

Did that make sense to you?

Unbiased... lol.

How about this: After the game is over, regardless of results, I swear to you that I am telling the truth, and that it WAS an unbiased opinion at the time? Things have changed, and now I admit that there is a small bias involved in my opinion, but at the time, as a spectator, it was an unbiased opinion. Deal? I can do it—can you say the same about your points? (Well, obviously, you were never a spectator, but can you say you honestly believed everything you said after the game is over?)

I think I have proven time and time again that you are anything but unbiased...

Now, of course I’m not unbiased. I try to keep an open mind, yes, but I can’t see the point of him being scum, as you apparently aren’t seeing the point of him being town. You can’t make the unbiased claim, either.

just look at this post. You think it was pro-Town of dizardin for being blatantly hypocritical.

Just look at this post. You think it was pro-scum for dizard being rather honest.
You see, it works both ways.

I think scum WOULD pull this move, to make people think Serplat is so scummy that he might as well just be called scum without saying "if".

And, yet again, our opinions conflict…

Of course he only did this after he got called on it.

Every player in the game gives their beliefs, and when questioned further, they go into greater detail. You’ve done it, I’ve done it, Peace did it, Manho has done it…do I really have to go on for you to get the point, there? We all do it. It’s a null tell.

I'm just saying that I can't follow your train of logic if you assume you're pro-Town; in case you've noticed, I can't make the same assumption.

I see. Thanks for the clarification. I, of course, can also not assume you are pro-town. However, that doesn’t stop me from attempting to see your opinion knowing you’re pro-town.

Ridiculous. If someone doesn't assume that they're pro-Town it's because they're trying to make it easier for the Town to see their logic.

Alright, then look at my points that were made as a spectator—that was not assuming I was pro-town nor pro-scum at the time, as I hadn’t been playing. It doesn’t make the logic any easier to follow. I find the fact you think it’s ridiculous…well, a little ridiculous.

*Watches the conflict of opinion debate rage on*…

Reasons? I am simply pointing out another possibility.

And if he answers, he’s practically roleclaiming. “Oh, no, no night action.” <--Townie claim. “Maybe, maybe not.” <--Power role claim.

Can you see the logic behind that? I saw obvious rolefishing.

So you admit that my suggestion is indeed a possibility then?

Anything’s a possibility. It is possible that you are scum, bussing your partner, Peace. It’s what you find a probable possibility, a plausible problem in this equation, that matters. And, obviously, the given example is an example of a possibility that I find is very, very doubtful.

Yeah, I've been getting paranoid too.

Haven’t you said before that you thought paranoia was a scum tell?

Yup, there’s another inconsistency.

To be quite frank, I am far less certain of your alignment now. While your actions have overall remained extremely pro-town, I keep on seeing all these inconsistencies and examples of hypocrisy in your posts, which is scummy.
I still think you’re town. I just am far less certain of it than I was before, because what you’ve been doing has seemed rather scummy.

Does that make sense to you?

He started it!

Errm, errm, Only because he told me to!

And you are, in fact, attacking manho.

Not really. I have stated how he is a large suspect of mine, and given reasoning as to why. The attacks on Peace are weak, to say the least.

Aw, you spoil me!

Well, aside from large scum slips when you’re scum, I know you’re a good player, regardless of alignment.
Though, really, yea, your arguments are solid. I see some of the points, yet from your perspective, can’t see enough that makes me see Peace as scum, although I admit I can understand how many of those things look scummy.

Oh, and I had fun playing with you Serplat. I hope to see you again someday. Don't know where, don't know when... but I know we'll meet again, some sunny Mafia game! (sunny because of my avatar )

Quoted for truth. (I did say I was going to play with you instead of being replaced by you, didn’t I? Promises of that nature are easy to fulfill. )

Wow... I always thought it was an exaggeration when people's mouths dropped open in surprise on TV. Now I know they weren't joking. Then I realized the date. I'm reading this on the 3rd, so I got understandably confused.

Data’s deserved title:

“Hey, it was ALSO a JOKE!”
Based off of EmpTyger getting lynched off of a joke (this game is why I find jokes later written off as such as scum tells, amongst others), whose title is “It was a JOKE!”

(Pretty much gives my opinion on Data—a joke, made by the scum, one which can [and I think should] get him lynched)

Dammit, I missed out on all the April Fool's fun.

Yea, it’s fun, as long as you don’t claim to be mafia, it’s all good.

I love how this is coming from you, the person who's obviously scum hunting the most

Quoted for truth.

oh wait, was that posted on April Fool's Day again? Joke's on me I suppose.

I think it was legit, hence, a rather possible scum tell, via the huge inconsistency.

Anyway, that wasn't so bad. Only one Mastinic post to respond to.

Aaaaaaaaaaaannd…
*suspense*
*THWAK!*

I hit you hard with another one.

just a question for peace: what did you mean in these two post? did you misunderstand something from sensfan?

I don’t need to see Peace’s response to know the answer to this is yes.

As most of you may know, I like to post something evil and frightening to welcome the replacement to our games, but in this case, I'm simply gonna tell him to look at pages 18-19.

Ah, the many possibilities for a title for me. ‘Someone’, ‘another person’, other such titles relating to me being referred to nothing more than ‘that one poster’…and Evil Overlord of Posts who rules over the Great Text Wall of Mastin. *laughs a manacle laugh and grins about pages 18-19, his grandest works*
Couldn’t resist.

By the way...
I am almost all the way through page 18 and will be moving on to summarizing page 19 shortly.
As for when I'll actually post this summary that's about a week overdue, the timetable is set for either late tonight or Sunday afternoon.

*Waits for that summary*

Hello everybody! Just checking in to let you know I´m here. Now to the reading.

*big grin*
Welcome to Newbie 748, AKA, OhGodMyHamlet, AKA, the underworld of newbie games, Also Known As, Oh, GOD!

MY

EYES

!!!!

See you in a month, then.

That quick? I was expecting a year.

He was quite agreeable to lynching Data for lurking/not posting much early in the game. Josh was gone a long time/lurking...what's the difference? Again, his stance was confusing.

For that entire post…Nice Case!
If I hadn’t read up on Sensfan and done my homework, it might’ve been enough to make me vote him.
Only one problem.

Sensfan’s dead.
You made a case against a townie, who is no longer a player alive. *laughs*

Nice effort, though.

i know what you meant and you've cleared yourselves for me. unvote.

With the exception of cop results, there is no way of knowing if a person is innocent…and you were voting me, Manho, not Peace. Why unvote me when Peace defended himself, not me?

So at this point manho and peacesells are just arguing about stuff SensFan said? Doesn't seem relevant to the game, frankly. Are we just going to wait around for lasaiki?

This is a good point, one which I agree with.

Some of you guys enjoy big, huge posts, huh?

I’ve written half a novel in a day. That’s over 25,000 words. Yup, that can give you an idea of how much I like big posts.

However at first sight I’m suspicious of Data, which I don’t remember he have done anything but lurking, not writing real content.

This sums up my opinion fairly well, though there’s far more to it than that.

Meh, Too much stuff irl.
*Sadface*

Mod: Need a replacement.

Meh, we all have it. I had it in 688, and was doing poorly, anyway, and needed to be replaced.
(…Mind you, I was also scum that game…)

Anyway, maybe your replacement will have a better insight into the game. Maybe actually

contribute

something, stuff like that. Who knows? If you’re replacement is good enough, maybe I’ll unvote them to actually listen to their likely bs case.
(The above is purposefully tunnel vision, and is intended as a joke)

Amished replaces Datadanne. Welcome to the game, Amished!

Welcome, someone I think is a devil (mafia); you should be perfectly fine here in our little underworld that outsiders call Newbie 748.

So much for thinking it was *just* a 20 page game

Dang, I wish I could remember the evil smiley in Microsoft Word. It’s perfect for quotes such as this.

Oh, wait, let me try it the long way:

So much for thinking it was *just* a 20 page game

Still wading through some of the posts, though hopefully I got through most of them. Finished page 13 for my reference, and letting everyone know I'm slowly catching up.

Thanks.

I'm scared about 19... It didn't take me long to get to 18, but I've been working on that page off and on since noon (7 hours).

*Points to Alduskkel* Seriously, just blame him. I’m positive he’s posted in this game more than I have.

I'll try to keep getting caught up til then, but from what I've seen so far I'm happily surprised that you all didn't lynch Data on day1.

“I am happy that you didn’t lynch Data-scum, so that I could live to the endgame.”<--What I interpret it as.

Surprised cause I probably would've voted for him just out of pure frustration

“I would have lynched myself, knowing I’m scum.”<--See the pattern I’m seeing? Sure, this might be a little, well, tunneling, but that’s how I’m reading these sentences.

happy that you didn't and I can come in and hopefully salvage his role and help out a bit.

“Hope that I can prevent myself from being lynched so that the scum team can win.”<--Yup, you guessed it. My interpretation, right there.

I also side with Ald about the role-fishing that's going on, but partially. While I didn't pick up on any fishing by Ald, I viewed Mastin's posts to be more of a hinting to the scum at who he thought was a power-role thereby trying to get them NK'd instead of himself. Not the most townie of intentions, which bumps him below Ald in my view of town players.

Of course you don’t think I’m as town as Aldusk—I’m attacking you, and you want to gain the favor of the person who is actively contributing who is *not* attacking you.

In this case, I also agree with Ald in thinking the hammer was scummy. I don't always believe that's the case, but when even *one* person asks to wait for a roleclaim and it's not honored, that is beyond scummy in my eyes.

In the case of asking for something (in this case, not hammering), It’d take three for me to make sure scum aren’t misleading me—a policy I encourage others to follow.

but metagaming newbies, especially if you don't have a specific meta on them being *any* anti-town role just seems ridiculous. I can seem some of the other things that he's said and his actions being thought of as anti-town as I do feel his playstyle was absolute crap, but trying to bury him on meta in his point of his mafia career seems like quite a stretch.

1: There’s far more to the case than meta.
2: The meta I have suggests that he is not town—and that’s all I have to go on.
3: You admitted that your predecessor was scummy. Honesty’s good and all, but this easily could be an attempt to get on my good side, as I have clearly stated my opinion on honesty.

valid points (that frankly, I refuse to post exactly just in the hopes of keeping this game under 1,000,000 words)

Oh, please, feel free to post them. That way, we can get over 400 pages in Microsoft Word and publish this game as a novel.

Manho and Alduskkel. Doing a good job as scumhunter.

Because they’re not targeting you, perhaps? Because those two are agreeing the most on their suspects?
Now, of course, I don’t think they’re both scum, but they make a nice scum pair if I were to be a spectator and not a player.

Mastin. Comments and more comments but real content must be somewhere between. Your analisis are hiden behind walls of words and this is not helping me. Just because you write a lot don’t mean you’re town. But it’s very difficult to understand your point when you make comments like this:
Quote:
Makes a joke in the pre-game. Fine by itself, although let’s just say I show very, very great caution towards jokes. As for the comment about wanting to start up soon, again, this—to me—implies that dizard has no buddy to privately talk to.

contributes hardly nothing to the game

. It’s your opinion about jokes.... so what? Ok, but how is this helping to hunt scum?
In summary.

No opinion on mastin

. I can’t read him. I have no time to read useless comments.

(This is mainly from the underlined) Answer me this:
Alduskkel’s posts are just as long (sometimes longer) than mine.
They have an equal amount of content.
So how on earth am I posting nothing of content, in comparison to Alduskkel? He posts comments like that all the time, yet you seem to think he is ‘a good job of scum hunting’. Explain, if you can, why he gets a grade a star from you just for having the same exact post length as me, yet I get lower.

Also, a few points you should know about me:
1: I have had huge posts ever since Newbie 735, my first true game on Mafiascum.net. I was the cop then, and the cop in 742, so don’t even THINK about calling long posts of mine ‘ways to hide possible scum slips’; I’m so tired of that dang bs’d weak excuse to attack me. Reminding you of this to make sure you don’t turn your opinion of ‘analysis hidden behind walls of words’ into ‘hiding scum tells behind walls’.

2: I can summarize them, if this is required of me. I did it with Data when presenting a case against him.
3: I *do* show great caution to jokes. In my experience, people who make jokes without marking them as such during the game, when they have their roles, are more likely to be scum. I can cite this view from Newbie 742, where I citied Les Mis. Mafia and Epicmafia.com games as sources for this belief. Which is why Data’s post during April Fools’ Day, KNOWING that I take caution at jokes, would have been suicidal, had I not already been voting him.



SHORT VERSION SHORT:

I still think Amished (Data) is scum.
I still think Peace is town.
If I were to guess a second scum, I'd think Manho.

Anything else?

[Mastin]

The Newbie Slayer

...I need to remember to take the title out of my documents when copying and pasting. Ignore that.
(Yes, I named a document that I was typing, KNOWING it was going to be long, The Newbie Slayer. It seemed appropriate at the time. )

[Amished]

I'll pull the quotes directed towards me out and go through them for you so you know exactly what I'm referring to later on. First though I want to ask a couple questions that I didn't bring up before. (All directed at Mastin, btw.)

General question: Why were you deciding to spectate this game?

Second: You and Ald are of greatly conflicting stances on what Josh's "claim" would've been at the end of D1. It seems to me that you're going on the basis that there's no doubt in your mind that Josh would have claimed a power role. Even going back to Ald's first non /confirm post, "rule" #5 seems to be right on the dot here. While it's obvious that you thought he was scum for a while (judging by the length of time that you had your vote on him primarily without making me stay up another 5 hours reading your posts) it's clear that he wasn't.

What makes you think that Josh (as Town like we know) would've claimed anything but VTownie? Do you really think he would've lead the town that far astray by claiming something he wasn't? In the event that he did claim a power role, it would've been disastrous, I completely agree with you there, but I didn't think he would've been that short-sighted to actually claim anything but VT. Going by the fact that I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't have claimed a power role, the discussion was unnecessarily cut short which I view to be scummy.

As to your point about waiting til at least three people asking for something to actually do so, I wonder about this as well. Sure, the one person that I require could be scum, but if they do bring up a pro-town suggestion (as they are apt to do since they are trying to look pro-town) why not honor it? If you're town, you need 3 people to ask to honor it (at this point of the game) you're essentially either having mafia say something protown (same situation as I have) or making all but 1 of the rest of the town ask for it. It just seems like too large of a hurdle to regularly come up for someone to really come to that conclusion.

For your four points about the power role crumbing/pointing out, without knowing the scum intentions/thoughts, 50% of your theories give information to the scum that they didn't have before (one of which you give weight to), the fourth is having peace be scum too, giving him a defense. In all cases *but* #1, the scum are potentially gaining an advantage. How is that pro-town, or even reasonable for you to bring up in the first place? If peace was honestly bread-crumbing, he could've brought it up later if he felt it necessary to claim; but if it was accidental/not actually bread-crumbing, you've allowed peace (as scum) a wide open door to walk through perhaps riding it through til the end and potentially winning. If somebody is crumbing, let them bring it up, and force them to crumb from now on to not give their role away through meta.

Welcome, someone I think is a devil (mafia); you should be perfectly fine here in our little underworld that outsiders call Newbie 748.

...

“I am happy that you didn’t lynch Data-scum, so that I could live to the endgame.”<--What I interpret it as.

...

“I would have lynched myself, knowing I’m scum.”<--See the pattern I’m seeing? Sure, this might be a little, well, tunneling, but that’s how I’m reading these sentences.

...

“Hope that I can prevent myself from being lynched so that the scum team can win.”<--Yup, you guessed it. My interpretation, right there.

...

Of course you don’t think I’m as town as Aldusk—I’m attacking you, and you want to gain the favor of the person who is actively contributing who is *not* attacking you.

...

In the case of asking for something (in this case, not hammering), It’d take three for me to make sure scum aren’t misleading me—a policy I encourage others to follow.

...

1: There’s far more to the case than meta.
2: The meta I have suggests that he is not town—and that’s all I have to go on.
3: You admitted that your predecessor was scummy. Honesty’s good and all, but this easily could be an attempt to get on my good side, as I have clearly stated my opinion on honesty.

...

Oh, please, feel free to post them. That way, we can get over 400 pages in Microsoft Word and publish this game as a novel.

... uhh thanks? If the outsiders were smart, they wouldn't refer to it at all.

- I'm happy that you didn't lynch Data-town as it'd be a mislynch. Either doing this day1 giving the same situation (without me, but with Josh), or day2 giving a lylo situation. Furthermore, no matter my role, I don't have enough faith in my abilities to either avoid a lynch or a NK yet to really say that I'd live to any certain point.

- Data played terribly, was annoying to me in every single one of his posts, and I would've voted to mislynch him for sure at least at some point while he was here if I was anybody else playing with him. I would've had to bear some responsibility for the mislynch, but in my eyes it would've been acceptable as somebody that was so distracting and unhelpful to me to actually play the game and scumhunt properly.

- Again, if I were scum, I definitely don't have the confidence in myself to think anything of the sort. As town, I hope to help, but as I've voted for townies before (who hasn't) I can't be sure of even my ability to help. I surely hope I can and hopefully I can bring up some good points to discuss, but so far to me pure desire leads more to tunneling on townies just as much if not moreso than on scum.

- At that point you had nothing to do with the literal "me", you were attacking my predecessor who I would've questioned heavily as well. Utterly false and a huge mis-rep of my thoughts. I happen to agree with many more of his points than yours (disregarding his/your thoughts on my completely). Saying that I can view his side better and think more of his points are correct than yours = me thinking he's more pro-town. In fact, I try to look for people that don't look at me, just because then it's not as obvious that they're looking at everyone as a possible suspect.

- See before the quote.

- I realize that, but a lot of what you post is about meta. From my understanding the "meta" that you do have is on about a 3 page game of him being town. If you have more, please, enlighten us all, but don't expect me (even if it wasn't about my role) to be that convinced about what I view a decent chunk of your argument is over 3 pages where he still got lynched, and quite possibly was his first game. Like I said again, and bears repeating, even in my .. 6th? game of ongoing, killed or ended, I'm still finding my style.

Clearly I've always just admired you and wanted to get on your good side! Everything I did was just for you, my hero. [/sarcasm] Come off it. I don't want to get on anyone's "good side" by sucking up to them. I would much rather prefer to be convincing and logical in my arguments so that while not being buddy-buddy, I'll have the rest of the town view me as an ally. Keep in mind that I'd want this no matter my role; townie because that's what I am, scum cause that's what I'm trying to be. Neither of those cases involve sucking up to anybody.

I understand taking heat for the person you replaced, but to have everything I say be instantly twisted (not even misunderstood) towards being scum is concerning to say the least.

Finally, @ Iasaiki: I'm glad to see that it appears that you're at least keeping an open mind about me while still being suspicious, as apparently not all of us are capable of that. If you want to ask questions of me, feel free.

What about Manho do you feel is good scumhunting? So far (especially lately) it appears like he was trying to clarify a confirmed (dead) townie with Peace. What else caught your attention?

[Alduskkel]

I was responding to Mastin's post when I lost it all somehow.

[Mastin]

General question: Why were you deciding to spectate this game?

Alduskkel was in it, and I wanted to watch him play. When I saw that there was a spot open, I decided to take it, due to the fact that I had already read everything in the game.
(I hate how you can't see people over the internet--I just raised my shoulders and let them drop, which reinforces my emotions on the matter, but nobody can see it... )

*shrugs*
Yea, that's really all there was. For the other games where OGML is modding (for example, Medieval Mafia just finished, and I've browsed the first eighty, read all of the last twenty pages), I decided to spectate after joining this one. OGML gives me fun roles to play with; what can I say?

Second: You and Ald are of greatly conflicting stances on what Josh's "claim" would've been at the end of D1. It seems to me that you're going on the basis that there's no doubt in your mind that Josh would have claimed a power role. Even going back to Ald's first non /confirm post, "rule" #5 seems to be right on the dot here. While it's obvious that you thought he was scum for a while (judging by the length of time that you had your vote on him primarily without making me stay up another 5 hours reading your posts) it's clear that he wasn't.

I do not believe he would have claimed a pr--I am raising the point that he could have, and that it would have been bad to have done so. I don't know Josh's play style, so there's no way to be certain.

What makes you think that Josh (as Town like we know) would've claimed anything but VTownie? Do you really think he would've lead the town that far astray by claiming something he wasn't? In the event that he did claim a power role, it would've been disastrous, I completely agree with you there, but I didn't think he would've been that short-sighted to actually claim anything but VT. Going by the fact that I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't have claimed a power role, the discussion was unnecessarily cut short which I view to be scummy.

I feel the risk was great enough. Nobody knew his alignment, and I'm not sure that, even if he *had* claimed a power role, I would have unvoted him. He was the most scummy player alive. I found that we had more than enough discussion on day one, and waiting around longer would not have done us any good.

As to your point about waiting til at least three people asking for something to actually do so, I wonder about this as well.

Me and my blasted bad choice of words. I did it in Newbie 735 to some extent, I did it a *lot* in Newbie 742, and I am doing it again, here...
A much better phrasing would be that, in most cases, wait for (the number of probable/certain scum alive+1) players to confirm/deny what you are saying is true, to make sure you're not being mislead.
Pro-town and pro-scum opinions on players can alter this. For example, if I thought Player X was town, there's a good chance that X's opinion would be able to sway my own, but if I thought Player Y was scum, it'd take at least the number of scum plus one to convince me that the point I have is invalid/perfectly valid/whatever.

Gotta go; will continue answering these later.

[Mastin]

~~Continuing~~

Sure, the one person that I require could be scum

Hence, misleading you, hence, leading to the possibility of scum leading your vote, hence, the possibility that you're being manipulated.
Unless, of course, you're scum yourself, in which you're listening to either the town, or your partner.
Either way, it isn't always a good thing to follow, in fact, that's generally considered a very bad thing, at best a null tell, at worst, a serious scum tell.

but if they do bring up a pro-town suggestion (as they are apt to do since they are trying to look pro-town) why not honor it?

If their suggestion is pro-town, it is counter-productive to their goal UNLESS it also benefits themselves. In other words, if they bring up a pro-town suggestion, they're doing it for their own motives as well.

If you're town, you need 3 people to ask to honor it (at this point of the game) you're essentially either having mafia say something protown (same situation as I have) or making all but 1 of the rest of the town ask for it.

Last I checked, there were seven alive. How on earth is that all but one of the rest of the town asking? Three out of seven leaves four, a maximum of which would be four town, a minimum of which would be two.
But, yes, for the most part, I do encourage thinking on your own, BUT, if it is clear that there are many opinions that conflict yours, it is far more likely that you are wrong on whatever you are discussing.
The more the merrier.

For your four points about the power role crumbing/pointing out, without knowing the scum intentions/thoughts, 50% of your theories give information to the scum that they didn't have before

No, duh. Of course I was giving them further information by raising the four points. Yet I was also giving the TOWN more information, and that information I felt would outweigh the disadvantages. I deemed it necessary. Alduskkel wanted a clarification. I was reluctant, because that clarification would give them more ideas than before, but in the end decided that it would be best to defend the points, as it would also make the town aware of the possibilities that they might not have thought of.
This is, at its worst, Short-sightedness, I suppose. I defended against a point, which--if left unanswered--would make me look more scummy. By answering it, I've done potentially worse, giving the scum not only ideas, but making it look scummy in different ways than I would have. HOWEVER, I have also potentially made the situation far better, for I defended myself, AND raised possibilities for the rest of the town to be aware of.
Don't you just hate loaded questions?
I know that I have come to have a disdain for them. Especially since I have been known, and called scummy for it, to have a bad choice of words since BEFORE my first real game--Newbie 688 (REALLY bad choices there, as scum), Epicmafia.com (I worded it in such a way as to make it appear I was faking, where better wording would've gotten the faked guilty lynched for a win), Newbie 735 (what I consider my first true game), etc., etc. The best you can do when faced with something you see as loaded is to give a positive spin to it.
Oh, and let me shoot down the parts of your theory with the original quote:

1: The scum found them, and are attacking him, hoping to get a lynch on a power role.
2: The scum missed them, and only now found them. Peace avoids getting lynched, and is night killed. VERY doubtful, given 1 and 3.
3: The scum missed them, and only now found them. Yet instead of killing Peace, they instead try to keep our favorite Village Idiot alive to get an easy lynch, and an easier win.
4: A very small possibility, in that Peace IS scum and dropped those tells, obviously avoiding the night kill, and possibly avoiding a lynch.

Number one and four are scenarios where the scum would already know. So let's just ignore them; by your logic of there only being a problem in the two that give them new information, at least, for the moment, we can concentrate on two and three.
2 is an option which would be down-right suicidal. Who here at least has a part of them (fairly dominant) that wants Peace to be lynched? Raise your hand!
I'm fairly certain that only one or two people besides myself could honestly not raise their hand and still be telling the truth.
Yea, that can't be just the scum wanting Peace lynched.
So, tell me, what do you find scummy in me stating a possibility that is very, very doubtfully going to happen?
Who would people suspect if Peace were to be night killed?
There's at least a 40% chance, if I do the math correctly, that people's suspects would be more likely to be scum, with Peace night killed.
Hence, this scenario is possible, but far from plausible.

This is what I view as the largest mistake in pointing it out, as now it is very doubtful that it will happen (if you let Peace live, that is). It would've been nice to see them night kill everyone's top suspect and have a fair chance of outing themselves.

3 is something that, as scum in this situation, I definitely would do. Peace hammered. Peace asked about a hypothetical scenario, but chose his words poorly enough for several to call it a scum tell.
Again, I go to the people who want to lynch Peace. Is there any way that you wouldn't want to lynch Peace? Besides my defense, and Peace's weaker defense, there's nothing that Peace can't be attacked for successfully.
I submitted that this is the scenario most probable. Ignoring the fact about missing the tell and all, Peace would still be your primary suspect, now, am I wrong?
So how would I truly be giving them information they didn't know? The breadcrumb alone? In this scenario, breadcrumb or no breadcrumb, the likely outcome would be the same: Mafia pushing a lynch on Peace.
In other words, this scenario is something that probably would be, to be pointed out, more helpful to the town than scum.

Now lets get rid of the ignore button on the first and the last, the last first before the first.

Four is, quite simply, what almost everyone is saying about Peace right now: "Oh, he's scum." He truly is scum, and dizard dropped those tells to be picked up by the IC's, at the very least--his 'top two suspects'--in an attempt to breadcrum an eventual fakeclaim as scum.
This was a point AGAINST Peace. Me stating all the possibilities, in my mind, this one being of him being scum.

As for the first, this would imply experienced or just lucky scum, finding a tell that is not very obvious to most. The only players alive who fit the first who were playing at the time would be...well, drop the plural. If this were to be the scenario, the only experienced player who could pick up on the tell would be Alduskkel, lest I be mistaken--and there's a REASON I dismissed this theory as being very doubtful. It is a theory which would imply Alduskkel is scum, which is something I do not believe is the case.

As for pointing out the breadcrumbs in the first place,
The four reasons I explained are all possible scenarios, and only in half of them could the scum POSSIBLY have truly benefited from it--in one of them, they really gain nothing. None of the scenarios I posted would have truly harmed the town. Posting the second scenario might have caused some harm, but it was doubtful that Peace would be night killed, anyway.

the fourth is having peace be scum too, giving him a defense.

Rather the opposite--in the fourth, I am showing a scenario for the town to be aware of and keep in mind.

In all cases *but* #1, the scum are potentially gaining an advantage.

Potentially, yes. Probably? Very, very doubtfully so.
The town gains just as much information, if not more, from the posted scenarios. Only one of the situations I posted I can see as having helped the scum, where all the others--if they helped the scum--help the town more, in my eyes.

If peace was honestly bread-crumbing, he could've brought it up later if he felt it necessary to claim; but if it was accidental/not actually bread-crumbing, you've allowed peace (as scum) a wide open door to walk through perhaps riding it through til the end and potentially winning.

The very fact that I have mentioned it means that the town is also aware of the possibility, now, and would be cautious of that said scenario. Who's to say Peace-scum (in this hypothetical scenario, Peace is being called scum) didn't think of it before, and would've done it, possibly with no opposition at all?
In other words, we don't know what would have happened.
We can predict what will happen, and that is for the rest of the town to at least consider all the possibilities I have raised.

If somebody is crumbing, let them bring it up, and force them to crumb from now on to not give their role away through meta.

It's in my nature to point out tells, I suppose. I've been called scummy for it in the past, but yet, I still do it, for I see how it can benefit the town as well.

... uhh thanks? If the outsiders were smart, they wouldn't refer to it at all.

Disagreed, rather strongly about this point.

- I'm happy that you didn't lynch Data-town as it'd be a mislynch.

And on that, we have only your word...

Furthermore, no matter my role, I don't have enough faith in my abilities to either avoid a lynch or a NK yet to really say that I'd live to any certain point.

Pro-town players fear not the lynch, nor the kill, when not in lylo. Pro-scum players do.

Data played terribly, was annoying to me in every single one of his posts, and I would've voted to mislynch him for sure at least at some point while he was here if I was anybody else playing with him.

And the fact that you're being honest instead of lying right here is wavering my once-solid beliefs that you're scum, at least, for a few split seconds.
Seriously, though, anyone who replaces in WELL after I have rambled about how I view honesty as a town tell could use honestly on their predecessor just to gain my favor. And then there's the fact that this can be interpreted as you saying that you'd be willing to lynch yourself for being so scummy.
However, I value honesty enough to still call this a very slight town tell.

Yes, *le gaspeth*, Mastin admits that something done by Amish(former Data) is a slight town tell!

Anyway, yet again, I have to leave, and hopefully, in the next sitting, I can finish up on Amish's posts.
For someone who seems to not want to write a very long post, you seem to be doing a fine job, Amished.

[manho]

(i don't want to go through mastin's second last post again to find the comment on me to quote, so i will not quote it. mastin is asking about why i unvoted him because i find peace innocent)
@mastin: i was unvoting you because my reason of voting you is that you are scum with peace and you are defending him. now it is not the case as peace is innocent. however, i'm still suspecting you as a scum defending and rolefishing peace. data(amished) is still my another suspect. (add "in my mind", "i think" if you are to say "you can't be so sure about anything except for cop's investigate result" (oh! i remember that it is the first part of your comment on me) (oh! and i found this comment rolefishing))
i think mastin and ald can't agree with each other, so this matter should be solve by all the other people. maybe we should have a vote(aye/nay) on peace.

[peacesells]

Reading through this novel, one thing about my posts has come up a couple times. Thought I'd clarify a bit.

I wasn't confirming a dead town. I was asked about my thought process leading up to the hammer. I was explaining all of my thoughts throughout the game up til that point because I was asked to do so.

So please be accurate in relating to those posts. I wasn't "beating a dead horse." I was answering a question.

[Amished]

Oooh, stalker. Got it. Ald living up to your expectations? I wasn't asking a loaded question, it just seemed odd to read games that you're not in, and without the ald/OGML connection, a game that seemed picked at random.

Yes, he could've, or he could've also claimed a VT, which he was. You're assuming the worst while I'm assuming truth from a VT that really had nothing to hide. Without letting him have a chance at it, you're right we can never know, but I personally would've liked to see what would've happened.

While too long of a day 1 can just get on everyone's nerves, I guess it's just my opinion that it requires 20+ pages of posting (obviously depending on the circumstances, people being replaced, needing prods would shorten, while everyone active would lengthen the # for me) for me to even start to think that there's enough discussion.

Ahh, but I qualify it that it's a pro-town suggestion. Scum and Town alike can offer those. Scum giving a pro-town suggestion benefits them by making them look more townie, but also benefits the town by having an actually good suggestion. Asking for more time isn't that counter-productive to the general scum goal of shorter days, while making them appear more townie. Yes, the person asking, and the request all affect this, but in this case it was just asking for more time, and from Ald, who is right at the top of everyone's pro-town list it seems. From a general sense to this particular case, waiting seems like the logical option, and the best option overall.

I took "myself" out of it in the figures because "I'm" asking for other people's opinions/requests. 6 *other* people alive, 2 are scum. 2 scum+1 townie suggest something (where they're still trying to manipulate you) at one end, or 3 townies out of the remaining 4 (vast majority) on the other end. Yes it can be 1 scum/2 townies, but even still that's half the remaining town, all from a townie's standpoint.

Oh yes, I really do hate loaded questions.

About the whole points thing, I'm thinking you'll have to clarify a couple things for me as I don't think I'm still seeing the whole reasoning of yours. Yes, you could (and so far have) defended peacesells, but why couldn't he defend himself? Right now he's trying to do exactly that by going through his thoughts at the hammer.

Concerning 2, would it really be that suicidal for scum? If they really think that Peace is a power role, they'll know if it's safe/unsafe to target that person depending on the setup, giving them an easier time overall. It seems as likely as leaving a suspected power role alive regardless of their scumminess to me at least. Going through the possible setups, if it's a RB/Goon, thinking that there's a town power role gives them knowledge as to exactly what setup it is, while with the goon/goon "peace-PR" is the only one, wiping out a major weapon for the town. I just think that you're not giving that option as much thought just based on your own playstyle, while I think objectively it's not as unlikely as you think. Especially if peace/you convince us that they're more townie than somebody else, they'll be less likely to be a lynch target for tomorrow too.

Regarding some of your hypotheticals: I always want to see more information from people to help me understand their playstyle. While I think Peace is deserving of pressure for what I view to be a scummy action, I also want him to stay alive so that he can defend himself and I can judge that as well. If Peace were to be NK'd, it'd also depend on the lynch. Do we get scum? Do we get town? Who was it? Without those, there's no possible way any of us could really answer your question without spiraling into massive back and forth speculation that would help nobody *but* the scum because it'd be so distracting.

Again, if he can defend himself properly, I don't want him lynched as he would've convinced me he's town. As it's a newbie game, if he defends himself and turns out to be scum, he did well and it's a learning experience for me. If he defends himself and is town, great, we're both on the right track. If he doesn't defend himself and is town, then it's a learning experience for him. Correct, if he doesn't defend himself, he can be attacked for anything. As is, he is attempting to defend himself in a roundabout way, and is good for him to help his own case. As he and you are defending him, this point is irrelevent ("Besides my defense, and Peace's weaker defense, there's nothing that Peace can't be attacked for successfully. " -Mastin)

Points taken for the other ones. I will admit I do think through certain circumstances more than others, especially ones that people don't give credit to. It appears that the major hangup is that I thought 2 overall was more likely than you're thinking it is.

What I was trying to say about the outsiders not referring to it is that if some of your posts truly are 15-30 pages in MSWord, and it's still a 21 page game (with Ald, and now me adding to it) it'll be a full day read if they devote all their time to it just to get to part of the way through Day2. Who knows how much longer this will be? If they do want to be "newbie slayed" or have their "mind atrophy" sure, refer back to this game. .......

And we have your word that I'm scum. Obviously I'm trying to change that perception for the whole town, but we'll see how well that works out.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't "fear" a lynch, but I don't exactly enjoy it. I rank it right up there with a NK. It sucks as the time spent in that game will affect that game in a way that I have no input into from then on, and I have to rely on others to find the scum. I also have to start a new game (so far I find it hard to make it through the RVS with something substantial) or replace in trying to get a read on everyone, defending myself if necessary, finding scum with the amount of content posted, which can take up many hours ending up with 1 post to show for my efforts.

Like you're the only one that wants honesty. I'm honest because the town deserves it, and I have nothing to hide. It's certainly not just for one person who I don't know the alignment of.

Yea, well, you started it. If somebody gives me a lot of content to analyze and/or directed at me, I spend time replying. I doubt any of my posts break the 5page mark if copied into a word document so I'm still way behind you and Ald. "Best of the rest" if you will.

@Ald, sorry you lost the post, shouldn't take too long to get one back up I hope.

@Manho: Why not just put in what you have in parenthesis right into your line? You're obviously concerned about somebody jumping on your wording. All you said was

data(amished) is still my another suspect.

and having me be a suspect is far from saying "amished is scum. lynch the lying sack of crap."

@Peace: Thanks for the clarification. I must've missed where the question was posed at you if so if it seemed to you that I was being hard on you, I apologize.

Grrr, dammit Mastin, making me spend about 2 hours on this post. I wanted to go to bed a lot earlier.

[Alduskkel]

Yours.

No, it isn’t guilty until proven innocent—it’s a possible scum tell.

There are two interpretations. You assumed that the one that made Data/Amished look scummier was the correct one. Hence, GUPI (as we will now take to abbreviating it).

I don't see how you're reaching this conclusion.

Because that’s what is there to read. He had a poor choice of words, yes, but it was nothing more than that to it, in my honest opinion.

FACT: peacesells put himself as the possible hammerer, not anyone else. Why should I assume that it was poor wording on his part when the evidence clearly says otherwise?

No, you were saying both were correct. You said right in that quote that it was wrong for two reasons. You did not say either were "theoretical".

Show me where I said both were correct. I said it was wrong for two reasons, yes. I didn’t state that both applied, nor that only one applied. However, the latter is what I had meant.

You said:

This is wrong for two reasons:
1: If it fits his pattern as scum,
2: If it doesn't fit his pattern as town.

There is no "or" there. The way you word it, you are listing two reasons as to why Data is scummy based on meta reasons.

Link? This sounds like poor Town play overall rather than poor Data play.

Newbie 742. Still, it shows how easily people want Data dead—for a reason, I might add.

Looked like poor Town play. I could totally see where Data was coming from. Basically you guys offed him for going back to random voting and because Ting allegedly used the chainsaw defense for him. Plus, two of the five voters were scum. Plus, Caleb (the hammerer/a townie) was pretty newbish from what I could tell. In Caleb's words:

I'm an idiot.

And that makes it "generally accepted"? I did not realize you represented the general public, Mastin.

At least for me, yes. Ask other players about this matter, search around. I’m positive others will believe as I do on the matter—it can’t just be my own personal experience.

Because it's totally legal for me to start a thread in Mafia Discussion to get information with regards to this game!!

How so? How could that possibly lead to scum-me finding a power role? What, am I not allowed to mention power roles just because it could be role fishing? Please.

It, again, seemed like something that—if answered—would expose the power roles, hence, a role fish. What if Data had answered for you? Flat-out claimed? Saying that easily could have made him do so, regardless of role, hence, I found that action to be slightly scummy, Alduskkel.

Why would Data claim? He barely participated at all, so I find it hard to believe that he would participate then by claiming. Plus, the question was directed at YOU, and no one else, I wanted YOU to answer. If anyone else answered that would not have been my fault, nor would it have been an intended side effect. Furthermore, I fail to see how an answer would hint at their role.

You keep assuming that Data would be lynched on Day 3. I do not think you can make that assumption.

Alright, answer me this: Say, we lynch Peace like you want us to. Who flips town. Who would be your top suspect? The town’s top suspect?

*looks away guiltily and whistles*

What's to stop you both being scum and you figured out this defense beforehand?

1: Peace hammered on day one. He had no way of knowing at the time in my beliefs. No conversation between scum is given to replacements, from what I have seen by watching many games with scum replacements.

Maybe peace figured out the defense. Or maybe he just didn't think about how it would make him look scummy, or thought he could get someone else lynched. I'm starting to think he just didn't think about it.

2: Your attitude on the matter is definitely a guilty-until-proven-innocent on this matter. I find that rather hypocritical.

How is it GUPI? I think we're starting to abuse the term.

3: To actually answer, nothing actually stops that from happening, but do you honestly think, at this stage in the game, that I would concoct such a load of ‘bs’ just to keep my supposed partner alive? Nope, not I. I say what I believe. I vote on who I believe to be scum, regardless of my role.

So you say. This is just your word about what you would do as scum. As if I can trust your opinion on such a matter.

Okay... it was a possibility. Big deal. Should we never ask for a claim when someone is at L-1 because this will always be a possibility? No. And personally, I don't think Josh was stupid enough to do that.

Agreed. It is better to wait for a claim, but this time, it was acceptable to not do so. In almost any other case, I’d say the answer was that we should have—in this case, it would be unfavorable.

How was it "acceptable"? How would a claim have been "unfavorable"?

Why do you assume that Josh was an idiot? Newbie game =/= retarded people playing.

You made the assumption that if Josh had claimed a power role, and there was a counter-claim, we’d lynch one, and find scum the next day. Yet Josh was a townie, and had he claimed a power role (and, worse, gotten a CC), Josh probably would have been lynched (hence, an idiot) and the CC shot during the night. The assumption of one scum for one power role would be flawed, as Josh (a townie) would be the idiot you would want to avoid.

What part of the "Newbie game =/= retarded people playing." quote do you not get?

I don't think Josh was that dumb.

Yet your whole scenario revolves around Josh claiming and us catching scum because of it, when—in fact—it would have been very, very bad. Why bring up the point of Josh claiming a power role when we know he isn’t one?

I bring up the point because, on Day 1, we did not know Josh's role or alignment. We should consider scenarios based on that lack of knowledge at the time. It's like talking as if we had all the information of SensFan and Josh's alignments/roles on Day 1, when that is clearly not the case. In fact, that's exactly what it is.

Remember right at the beginning of the game where I said there were exceptions to everything? This is just me pointing out that exception.

I fail to see how…

Seriously? I said that Townies could never be certain of anything. Then I promptly point out the exception to that rule by mentioning Cops.

Furthermore, I fail to see how a power role would react in such a way that it hints at their role.

It doesn’t take much—just a simple ‘I agree with Alduskkel’ when this point is quoted is a possible hint at their role.

It wouldn't hint at it, it would just be them saying that they agree with me. It would be very easy for VTs to say they agreed with me, hence it would be a bad rolefish.

The night lasted over 3 days. You had tons of time.

Some mods purposefully extend deadlines, even when all night actions were sent in well before the deadline. Whether this is true in this case, or not, I am not positive, but the fact remains, we have no certain way of knowing why the night lasted three days. The fact, though, is simple, in that I was gone for rather some time, and as I got no PM to signify the night coming, hence, if I were to be scum, that would have cut down conversation time considerably.

But, of course, not entirely.

You could have thought otherwise while spectating and are lying now, to your benefit, if you're scum.

About a point of this serious of nature? Heck no. Only two things can change my opinion on matters I pick up as a spectator: 1: Me receiving a power role, and 2: Cop claims with guilties.

Again, I said you might be lying about what you thought about the game while spectating if you're scum. This would naturally be advantageous.

Fixed.

Broken.

And why is it broken?

You really think this is honesty, not hypocrisy?

Yes, yes I do.

Why?

dizardin (paraphrased): logical conclusion: accentuate the problem by being more quiet

That is not at all the conclusion that I would reach from reading that post, Alduskkel.

Why not?

Potato, potato. Wait, that didn't work... curse you text-based communication!!

You will have to clarify this with me, as I failed to understand your meaning, there.

Forget it. It doesn't represent my opinion anymore.

Or they could be a vanilla townie saying that they agree/disagree. There's no way to tell; ergo, null tell. If I think it's a null tell, I was not rolefishing.

If YOU, the one who I am saying I think was rolefishing, claim to think it’s a null tell, then you’re flat-out saying you’re not rolefishing. But *I* happen to disagree on the matter. I find that things such as that can give answers—even a townie saying they agree/disagree can hint that they aren’t a power role, or a power role can answer and hint that they are. It’s not what they necessarily say; it is how they say it.

And what sort of answer would hint at a power role?

Newbie 688. You've read this, I'm sure. You know I was one of the most active posters, but also the Mafia Roleblocker.

Oh, yes. And before you and Battle Mage was Question Mark (And Panamon before that) and I, both of whom replaced out, due to at least a slight lack of devotion on my part.

Lack of devotion? Lies. You just had computer problems. Anyway, my point is that a lack of devotion to a game is not a scum tell. You continue to neglect ALL THE TOWN REPLACEMENTS. Surely there was a lack of devotion on the part of at least some of the replaced players, no?

You're calling the thought that all input from other players is worthless "perfectly reasonable"? Yeah, right. You might as well just not read any posts except your own then.

What I am saying is that, while I disagree, I can understand what Peace was saying, in that, he had his reasons, and that they were at least—in his eyes—well-founded.

So, you can understand someone basically ignoring all other posts from other players? Because that's what peacesells was implying there.

It's not a contradiction, it's hypocrisy.

Seems like someone admitted to hypocrisy, right there, which would, ironically, be hypocritical, as you have said that Dizard’s supposed hypocrisy was scummy.

You lost me somewhere in that hedge maze of words.

If you assume the worst, that is.

When you, yourself, say it is hypocritical, what do you expect me to think? The best? [sarcasm]Yea, that’s really going to happen, my friend.[/sarcasm]

Again, I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

I can see where he's coming from; if he thinks both of you are scum then he'll want to lynch you first.

And, yet, all I can see is possible scum trying to Chainsaw Defense their partner by attacking me… (This assumption would be, of course, assuming Data and Man are both scum. They’re my top two suspects, but only time will tell what they flip)

So... that's tunnel blindness then, since you are apparently unable to see another possibility?

More "guilty until proven innocent" logic.

You’re one to talk! Really, I’m stating my concern over Man, and how he’s one of my top suspects, with Data being even more suspicious. In this case, at least, it isn’t guilty until innocent logic, but rather, extreme concern until proven otherwise. Your logic on Peace seems to be guilty until proven innocent, though.

Translation: I know you are, but what am I?

Or he could have just run out of things to talk about with his buddy.

We need an abbreviation for this—GUI? GUPI? Something like that. (Take a good guess as to what I’m talking about—not that hard)

I'm just pointing out that dizardin's eagerness to play is a null tell. If it was GUPI, I would be claiming it was a scum tell.

[quote Would you say someone was Pro-Town if they said they were Pro-Town? No. This is basically what is going on here.

If they said it, I’d read their posts and try to figure out if this is the case. And, no, that is not what I was saying—I was saying a desire to scum hunt is pro-town. Instead of sitting around, contributing next to nothing, and going off of gut (scummy things to do), he chooses to contribute to the game.[/quote]He was saying that he wanted to scum hunt, and that's a null tell. That's what anyone would say. Townies would say it because it's true; scum will say it because they want to look like townies.

Key word: sometimes.

‘Sometimes’ is often enough.

Since when? It will undoubtedly attract suspicion if one fails to scum hunt.

As for the second, I think you mean, "at best a misinterpretation, at worst a deliberate twisting of words."

It is true, that it *could* have been a twisting of words, but from my first-hand experience, I find it FAR more likely that it was a misinterpretation. Dizard had no way of knowing of my experience in Newbie 742, where there were misinterpretations throughout the whole game. Or of my previous experience of the people calling out the twisting of words being scum targeting a townie. Yet both are what I have seen, which leads me to be doubtful of ‘twisting word’ claims, and when they show the logic behind it, I still will most likely find it to be a misinterpretation.

What does Newbie 742 have to do with anything? What misinterpretations happened in it, and in what posts? I already have to respond to your ad infinitum posts, do I have to read a whole second game? Not to mention the other game I'm currently in.

You haven't actually responded to my main point here; that is, dizardin was saying what he considered to be the definition of Mafia, which is in no way a Town tell.

I disagree—it is a town tell, in my eyes. Especially since his play style matches with the metaphor given, showing consistency.

Consistency is not a town tell.

He didn't mention any busyness. He simply said that he was going to be quiet.

There could be any number of reasons he could have fallen silent. You just assumed the worst, by thinking he was doing it just to be quiet.

Well, that post certainly implies that dizardin is trying to exacerbate a problem rather than help it. Why should I assume otherwise if I have no evidence to the contrary and have evidence in favor of it as well?

Okay, then how about a dragon going to a village that's on fire, and saying "Hey, you guys have a real fire problem. I will help by setting more things on fire."

Bah. If not helpful, fighting fire with fire is just too awesome to resist.
Though, on a slightly more serious note, people *do* fight fires with fire, controlling the fires they set to starve out the fire.

On a game-related note, I still find that metaphor to be inaccurate.

Why is it inaccurate?

dizardin doesn't show anything here. He dodges the question,

giving an answer but giving no evidence to support it.

He's dodging the question because he's giving a non-answer.

‘Non-answer’ and ‘answer without evidence’ are two ENTIRELY different things. One is something based off of honor/word alone. The other is something you see as a scum tell. The two are not one and the same, and this discrepancy in your opinion has been noted.

I love how you continue to claim that you think I'm pro-Town while slowly building up a case against me by accusing me of role fishing and now "contradictions" that are obviously just poor wordings on my part; tell me, what scum motive do I have for changing "answer without evidence" to "non-answer"?

And, if your scenario is true, and dizardin had no refutation, then that's scummy because an accusation was made that he was unable to defend against.

In some cases, yes, but I’ve seen pro-town players accept their defeat in several games, when they were just that—pro-town players.

So? Just because pro-Town people have done it doesn't mean it isn't a scum tell. Scum tells are merely things that scum are more likely to do; it is by no means impossible for Townies to do it. Besides, what if Data/Amished is a pro-Town player with no refutation to the accusations against him (and I'm not saying he is)? Would you just let him go based on the possibility of him being Pro-Town?

How is he "show[ing] frustration at the fact that the scum are acting the way they are"?

Should’ve put that in quotation marks. He showed frustration at the players he thought were scum (You and Sensfan) acting the way that they had been, and that he couldn’t get the rest of the town to listen.

And how's that Pro-Town?

If people can't defend themselves from accusations that point to them being scum, they should be lynched.

Precisely why they are village idiots. I’ve seen them before in games. Caleb/ppp in Newbie 742 was barely defending his actions at all. He wasn’t lynched day two due to my claim, and wasn’t lynched day three, despite him having little to no defense, yet the scum having rather good defense and offense.

My experience has shown me that this would probably be the case this time. If they can’t defend, they’re attacked mercilessly—unfair attacks, which are likely the scum picking off an easy target like Peace. Attitudes like that are why many games go into lylo, when a different course of action would lead to the lynch of scum.

And say, for a moment, you disagree with all of the above—well, then, my friend, I can just say the same about Data, who practically flat-out refused to defend himself. If you’re using this logic for Peace, apply it to Data as well, or I will consider it rather the scum tell.

Data pretty much just flat out refused to play, and barely did anything. peacesells has the ability to post good stuff, yet he leaves most of the defending to you. And anyway, you can't just always dismiss scummy players as VIs.

Concern and frustration? More like anger. Basically, dizardin throws a tantrum and then you call it a town tell.

He was showing concern at the play of an IC not being what it should be—and that’s a town tell. His frustration was definitely understandable, and trust me when I say that I’ve seen townies freak out and lose their cool far more often than scum. Hence, it was a town tell, in my mind.

omfg you suck die die die i hate you! omg vote alduskkel i hate you all i hope town dies in a fire

...was that a town tell?

Why do you find it more likely that newbie Town would do this?

To warn people of their tactics probably not being what is expected of them.

And how does that make it more likely that newbie Town would do this? I already pointed out the potential advantages scum would have.

I can easily imagine Scum admitting to being a newbie.

And what stops town from admitting the exact same thing?

Nothing. That's why I'm saying it's a null tell.

It's honesty on a minor point; really, it helps scum, because they can later play the newbie card and not have it come out of the blue.

Yes, it helps scum—by making them realize who’s such an easy target, that is…

That's not a refutation of my point, that's an addition.

But the problem is, where do you draw the line between scum and village idiot? Furthermore, I do not think peacesells is a VI. He has been making good points lately.

Where I weigh the evidence, and come to my personal conclusion. I’ve drawn the line, and Peace fell on the town side of it, no matter how I tried to look at the game. Your cases are good, but due to conflictions in experience, I can say that I can’t see your point of him being scum.

How can my cases be good while you simultaneously say that you can't see peacesells being scum? And you didn't really answer my original question: where do you draw the line between scum and VIs?

And if he’s making good points, Alduskkel, why are you still voting him? Good points are town tells, in my mind.

Because of earlier actions by him and dizardin, which continue to outweigh the Town tells.

Again, where do you draw the line between scum and VI? Also, I like how you imply I'm scum here. I thought you said I was pro-Town?

The implication was accidental. No, I don’t think you’re scum. Your persistence in a Peace lynch I find rather scummy. While I can’t see your point of him being scum (as in, when I try to look at it from your perspective, my experience prevents me from seeing the same thing as you do), I can still see why you could think he is (meaning, despite all of it, I can understand why it is your opinion, even though I don’t share it) as a pro-town player, hence, while it is scummy—in my eyes—it doesn’t make you look like scum. Scummy != scum.

Did that make sense to you?

Yes, but you've once again ignored my question of when to draw the line between a VI and a mafioso.

Unbiased... lol.

How about this: After the game is over, regardless of results, I swear to you that I am telling the truth, and that it WAS an unbiased opinion at the time? Things have changed, and now I admit that there is a small bias involved in my opinion, but at the time, as a spectator, it was an unbiased opinion. Deal? I can do it—can you say the same about your points? (Well, obviously, you were never a spectator, but can you say you honestly believed everything you said after the game is over?)

I do not believe everything I have said in this game. But I did believe it all at the time I posted it. In that way I can be honest about it.

just look at this post. You think it was pro-Town of dizardin for being blatantly hypocritical.

Just look at this post. You think it was pro-scum for dizard being rather honest. You see, it works both ways.

You and Ironhead should switch usernames. But I digress...

Seriously, dizardin said that people were being too quiet, then said he was going to be quiet. There's no ambiguity there.

I think scum WOULD pull this move, to make people think Serplat is so scummy that he might as well just be called scum without saying "if".

And, yet again, our opinions conflict…

Why do you disagree?

Of course he only did this after he got called on it.

Every player in the game gives their beliefs, and when questioned further, they go into greater detail. You’ve done it, I’ve done it, Peace did it, Manho has done it…do I really have to go on for you to get the point, there? We all do it. It’s a null tell.

Are you saying that the hammer itself is a null tell or that the timing of his explanation is a null tell?

I'm just saying that I can't follow your train of logic if you assume you're pro-Town; in case you've noticed, I can't make the same assumption.

I see. Thanks for the clarification. I, of course, can also not assume you are pro-town. However, that doesn’t stop me from attempting to see your opinion knowing you’re pro-town.

Uh, did you just admit that you know I'm pro-Town? On Facebook Mafia they call that PIS (Perfect Information Syndrome).

Ridiculous. If someone doesn't assume that they're pro-Town it's because they're trying to make it easier for the Town to see their logic.

Alright, then look at my points that were made as a spectator—that was not assuming I was pro-town nor pro-scum at the time, as I hadn’t been playing. It doesn’t make the logic any easier to follow. I find the fact you think it’s ridiculous…well, a little ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? All I'm saying is that I'm strongly in favor of everyone not assuming that they're pro-Town in their posts, unless they are confirmed Town TO EVERYONE. That way anyone can read it and relate easily.

Reasons? I am simply pointing out another possibility.

And if he answers, he’s practically roleclaiming. “Oh, no, no night action.” <--Townie claim. “Maybe, maybe not.” <--Power role claim.

Can you see the logic behind that? I saw obvious rolefishing.

"Maybe, maybe not." is not a power role claim. I may or may not be a power role. Am I obviously a power role now? No. I could still be a VT. Plus, I pointed out in my FIRST POST IN THIS GAME that unnecessary VT claims are bad.

So you admit that my suggestion is indeed a possibility then?

Anything’s a possibility. It is possible that you are scum, bussing your partner, Peace. It’s what you find a probable possibility, a plausible problem in this equation, that matters. And, obviously, the given example is an example of a possibility that I find is very, very doubtful.

Why is it doubtful?

Yeah, I've been getting paranoid too.

Haven’t you said before that you thought paranoia was a scum tell?

Yup, there’s another inconsistency.

Once again, you continue to build up a case on me whilst stalwartly claiming that you think I'm pro-Town elsewhere in this post. Plus, I'm being paranoid about being wrong in my guess as to who's scum -- dizardin was being jumpy scum.

To be quite frank, I am far less certain of your alignment now. While your actions have overall remained extremely pro-town, I keep on seeing all these inconsistencies and examples of hypocrisy in your posts, which is scummy.

Oh ho ho. Now we see the gradual switching of your stance. You don't want to be inconsistent, so you slowly change it -- from seeing me as pro-Town to the next lynch candidate.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now, and assume that you're just a misguided Townie. Most of my suspicions of you rely on peacesells being scum anyway.

And you are, in fact, attacking manho.

Not really. I have stated how he is a large suspect of mine, and given reasoning as to why. The attacks on Peace are weak, to say the least.

So you're saying that you're not attacking him, while also calling him a large suspect of yours. Inconsistency.

(Pretty much gives my opinion on Data—a joke, made by the scum, one which can [and I think should] get him lynched)

It was April Fool's Day. Cut Data a break.

*Points to Alduskkel* Seriously, just blame him. I’m positive he’s posted in this game more than I have.

But, unlike you, not all of them could stand as short stories/novellas.

happy that you didn't and I can come in and hopefully salvage his role and help out a bit.

“Hope that I can prevent myself from being lynched so that the scum team can win.”<--Yup, you guessed it. My interpretation, right there.

So I heard you like to tunnel.

I also side with Ald about the role-fishing that's going on, but partially. While I didn't pick up on any fishing by Ald, I viewed Mastin's posts to be more of a hinting to the scum at who he thought was a power-role thereby trying to get them NK'd instead of himself. Not the most townie of intentions, which bumps him below Ald in my view of town players.

Of course you don’t think I’m as town as Aldusk—I’m attacking you, and you want to gain the favor of the person who is actively contributing who is *not* attacking you.

I'm pretty sure Amished isn't just OMGUSing here.

In this case, I also agree with Ald in thinking the hammer was scummy. I don't always believe that's the case, but when even *one* person asks to wait for a roleclaim and it's not honored, that is beyond scummy in my eyes.

In the case of asking for something (in this case, not hammering), It’d take three for me to make sure scum aren’t misleading me—a policy I encourage others to follow.

Only in matters of particular importance -- there was no deadline and we had plenty of time. So waiting for a role claim isn't an unreasonable request, and peacesells should have honored it, particularly because I gave (what I think to be) good reasoning in favor of a role claim.

valid points (that frankly, I refuse to post exactly just in the hopes of keeping this game under 1,000,000 words)

Oh, please, feel free to post them. That way, we can get over 400 pages in Microsoft Word and publish this game as a novel.

No. I'm serious. Just no.

Manho and Alduskkel. Doing a good job as scumhunter.

Because they’re not targeting you, perhaps? Because those two are agreeing the most on their suspects?
Now, of course, I don’t think they’re both scum, but they make a nice scum pair if I were to be a spectator and not a player.

HMMM THIS ISN'T A SMUDGE AT ALL

smudge=subtly planting the idea that a player is scum without backing it up

Alduskkel’s posts are just as long (sometimes longer) than mine. They have an equal amount of content.

Maybe lasaiki thinks I have a better word:content ratio than you do.

Alduskkel was in it, and I wanted to watch him play.

What makes me so interesting?

I do not believe he would have claimed a pr--I am raising the point that he could have, and that it would have been bad to have done so. I don't know Josh's play style, so there's no way to be certain.

And yet you go on and on about how a claim would have been bad! Yet you deign to say that you don't think he would have claimed a power role? How does that work? Doesn't your claim that if Josh had role claimed that it would have been bad for the Town utterly fall apart once you admit that you don't think Josh would have been dumb enough to actually hurt the Town by claiming a power role?

Who would people suspect if Peace were to be night killed?

Probably me.

The attacks on Peace are weak, to say the least.

there's nothing that Peace can't be attacked for successfully.

Inconsistency.

dizard dropped those tells to be picked up by the IC's

I severely doubt that. dizardin does not strike me as a person who comes up with weird and elaborate strategies like that. They probably mean nothing and are unintentional.

As for the first, this would imply experienced or just lucky scum, finding a tell that is not very obvious to most. The only players alive who fit the first who were playing at the time would be...well, drop the plural. If this were to be the scenario, the only experienced player who could pick up on the tell would be Alduskkel, lest I be mistaken--and there's a REASON I dismissed this theory as being very doubtful. It is a theory which would imply Alduskkel is scum, which is something I do not believe is the case.

You're the one who picked up on it. Plus, I have never actually successfully caught a power role. Not even unintentionally. Frankly, if the first scenario is the case it would point more toward you being scum, since you're the one who's actually finding these tells.

Pro-town players fear not the lynch, nor the kill, when not in lylo. Pro-scum players do.

Power roles fear the kill. And I always fear being lynched, except that one time when I was unlynchable. And if I ever get a Jester role.

While too long of a day 1 can just get on everyone's nerves, I guess it's just my opinion that it requires 20+ pages of posting

No, it has more to do with content than numbers.

By the way Mastin, your role fishing can still cause the scum to roleblock peacesells, assuming they have a Roleblocker. Not to mention the information they gain about the setup. So even if we don't overtly lose a power role by you noting power role tells coming from peacesells, it'll still benefit the scum more than you think.

[OhGodMyLife]

Seeking a replacement for JoeCool360.

[Amished]

20+ pages of posting (obviously depending on the circumstances, people being replaced, needing prods would shorten, while everyone active would lengthen the # for me)

Yes, I agree.... I was talking about the general sense that's around my "cut-off". In this particular case I think we could've had more discussion since people were reasonably active, and therefore can get content out of them if they don't volunteer as much as we'd all like.

[Amished]

Mod/Town: I am visiting some friends this weekend so I'll be V/LA from tomorrow (Friday) to sometime Sunday

I should be able to be back and checking this Sunday night so hopefully I'll get a post in then, otherwise I can basically guarantee I'll have something on Monday.

[lasaiki]

Note everyone that my previous summary is an overall impression after 20 pages. It will be more accurate when I become more familiar with everyone.

Lasai wrote:
Manho and Alduskkel. Doing a good job as scumhunter.

Because they’re not targeting you, perhaps?

Please…. I guess nobody is targeting me because I´m new. I think you haven´t target me either... well I don´t know it very well because I skimmed a lot… anyway I don´t like what you want to imply here. I take the game seriously. I give my thoughts freely, no matter if someone is targeting me or not.

Mastin in post 508 sumarizes: data/amished should be scum. Well, let´s see how your big post helps me to understand your point. Let´s take this as an example. These are the things you said about Amished, which supposedly are new evidence against him:

• Welcome to the game
  I wish I could remember the evil smiley in Microsoft Word
  Thanks
  Evil
  blablabla...
  I´m attacking you
  More than meta to the case
  Your predecessor was scummy.

Where, for life´s sake, are you making a case on Data/ Amished???? I don´t know how this part post, THAT WE ALL HAD TO READ, shows something useful. You´re not backing up your points here. Seems there´s no connection between what you think and what you write. Please, go to the main points and back up your thesis or I will just read your post summaries (if you post any).

You know this is active lurking but in a greater scale.

Other questions.

Well, I´ve seen how some of you like the so called GUPI statements…. I´m not a friend of that assumption. As far as I´m concerned I´m used to consider people innocent until proven guilty. (That is IUPG, for me )

I also don´t like the use of meta; people can change or improve their playstyle.

I´ll try to reread some highlights of the thread this weekend.

[Mastin]

WARNING

:

This was SUPER MASSIVELY LONG in Microsoft Word. 23 pages. It's a large read, so it BETTER be worth it.

I would've had to bear some responsibility for the mislynch, but in my eyes it would've been acceptable as somebody that was so distracting and unhelpful to me to actually play the game and scumhunt properly.

Agreed, in that, it would have been fine to lynch Data if he were anything but a power role, for the sake of the town being rid of such a scummy player.
However, while you’re far more useful to us than Data, I can’t ignore your predecessor’s previous actions, which were scummy.

- Again, if I were scum, I definitely don't have the confidence in myself to think anything of the sort.

And on that, we have only your word…

As town, I hope to help, but as I've voted for townies before (who hasn't) I can't be sure of even my ability to help.

You could admit I’m right, and that you’re scum…

I surely hope I can and hopefully I can bring up some good points to discuss

Which may or may not be efforts to distract the rest of the town from scum hunting…

but so far to me pure desire leads more to tunneling on townies just as much if not moreso than on scum.

Ah, the joys and confusion of tunneling…it is true that it is done more often by pro-town players.

- At that point you had nothing to do with the literal "me", you were attacking my predecessor who I would've questioned heavily as well.

Newbie 735—Andrigan replaced Ultimation, Kieran replaced Chimera. Both had to answer for their relatively scummy actions, and while doing their best, they were caught.
Newbie 742—Kublai Khan replaced in as Kronos, my guilty. He did his best, and DID successfully defend his predecessor…too bad I had more than what I was revealing on my case against him.
Newbie 688—both the scum were the first two to replace out (Three, if you include Question Mark, who had the same role as Panamon), and both were the two extremely scummy players there, but their successors managed to reverse those opinions and pulled a win.

Yea, my stances on replacements hasn’t been very good so far. Take a guess why I’m attacking you for your predecessor’s actions? Yea, it really shouldn’t be that hard to read my thoughts on the matter.

Utterly false and a huge mis-rep of my thoughts.

Merely a stated fact—scum are more likely to try and gain the favor of those not attacking them, ESPECIALLY when they think they can’t gain the favor of those who ARE attacking them. Which is why I see the possibility right there of what you’re doing.

I happen to agree with many more of his points than yours (disregarding his/your thoughts on my completely).

I don’t follow the parenthesis part…

Saying that I can view his side better and think more of his points are correct than yours = me thinking he's more pro-town.

Hence, you agreeing with Alduskkel more often, hence, thinking he is more town, hence, after a few loops, it’s easy to see the conclusion that it is to gain his favor.

In fact, I try to look for people that don't look at me, just because then it's not as obvious that they're looking at everyone as a possible suspect.

Agreed. Ignoring a player == majorly scummy.

- I realize that, but a lot of what you post is about meta.

Yet the majority of your post seemed to be blowing holes in my meta of Data.

From my understanding the "meta" that you do have is on about a 3 page game of him being town.

Where his attitude was radically different, I might add…

If you have more, please, enlighten us all

Yes, but nothing beneficial to the town—it’d just give the scum (likely you and your buddy) an advantage they currently do not hold.

but don't expect me (even if it wasn't about my role) to be that convinced about what I view a decent chunk of your argument is over 3 pages where he still got lynched

He got that quickly lynched and was acting more town than what he had been doing this game. It truly SHOCKS me that he, when more scummy in THIS game, has still managed to live so long.

and quite possibly was his first game.

Nope. What was it, Newbie 683? Something like that. He was the doc, then—Sensfan linked the town to it, and THAT was his first game, to my knowledge. He should have known better than to have fallen back to his old habits…

Clearly I've always just admired you and wanted to get on your good side!

[playing along] Wow! Thank you for such the honor!

Everything I did was just for you, my hero.

[more playing along]*strikes the heroic pose from Fable II*
Yes, I am just that awesome, aren’t I? [/playing along]
Couldn’t resist.

Come off it.

The fact that I was merely raising it as a possibility, not a fact, makes me believe that such a negative response from you makes it far more likely to be true. 735, And, anyone?

I don't want to get on anyone's "good side" by sucking up to them.

So you say. We have only your word that you’re telling the truth and not covering for an earlier bad move as scum.

I would much rather prefer to be convincing and logical in my arguments so that while not being buddy-buddy,

Agreed—logic rules all.

I'll have the rest of the town view me as an ally.

So…you want to be seen as a friend of the town?
Again, this, to me, implies you are NOT part of the town, wanting to be their ‘ally’ so that you can avoid being lynched for a victory on behalf of the scum. In other words, a scum tell.

Keep in mind that I'd want this no matter my role

So you say…

scum cause that's what I'm trying to be.

Oh, my, I couldn’t have asked for a larger slip.
I REPEAT, WITH BOLDED, ITLICIZED, AND UNDERLINED FOR EMPHASIS

scum

[/i] cause that's

what I'm trying

to be.

You…are TRYING to be scum.
In other words,
You are scum.
Trying to play your best AS scum,
But with lines such as these, you’re failing…

I understand taking heat for the person you replaced

LOTS of heat—you’re nearing the fires of the underworld; I suggest you take a heat suit with you, as not even the servants of bad-guys can resist the heat of the rest of the town’s mob…

but to have everything I say be instantly twisted (not even misunderstood) towards being scum is concerning to say the least.

I was giving my interpretation. You’ve given clarifications, although I still think they’re true.

What about Manho do you feel is good scumhunting? So far (especially lately) it appears like he was trying to clarify a confirmed (dead) townie with Peace. What else caught your attention?

However, THIS, I *can* quote from you, and still say it’s for truth. Mind answering, Lasai?

I was responding to Mastin's post when I lost it all somehow.

Copy and Paste, with a tint of Microsoft Word, serves a perfect dish of supper massive posts with a near 100% accuracy rate—not those sloppy MS.net type-then-posts, or type-than-preview disasters.

@mastin: i was unvoting you because my reason of voting you is that you are scum with peace and you are defending him.

You explained this much to us already.

now it is not the case as peace is innocent.

Why so certain?

however, i'm still suspecting you as a scum

Inconsistency—you unvoted me because you thought I was scum with peace…and now you’re thinking that I’m just flat-out scum. So why unvote in the first place?

defending and rolefishing peace.

A quote from Alduskkel which I am too lazy to locate:
“If I think a player is being attacked unjustly, I will defend them.”
I have already explained the second, and if you stop browsing and actually read, you should understand why this is a null tell at WORST.

Data(amished) is still my another suspect.

And yet, you still have yet to vote…

(add "in my mind", "i think" if you are to say "you can't be so sure about anything except for cop's investigate result" (oh! i remember that it is the first part of your comment on me) (oh! and i found this comment rolefishing))

Point this quote out. If it exists, surely, you can find it?

i think mastin and ald can't agree with each other, so this matter should be solve by all the other people.

This is a fair opinion on the matter, ESPECIALLY as it relates as to who we should lynch. The rest of the town has to have the majority to lynch. Under the (strong possibility, in my eyes) assumption both Alduskkel and I are town, then the rest of the town (with influence from two scum, mind you) would vote based off of one of our two differing cases, most likely.

maybe we should have a vote(aye/nay) on peace.

Let me put it this way: There is one, AND ONLY ONE, scenario where I would currently be willing to lynch Peace:
If we are approaching the deadline, I’d rather see a fairly pro-town player (in my eyes) dead putting us in probable lylo tomorrow, but with the one thing us, the uninformed majority, lack the most: Information.
I doubt any other wagon would pick up the needed number of votes to lynch nearing a deadline, so if it weren’t Peace, there’s be a no lynch, a kill, and that would leave us at a situation tomorrow where a mislynch would cause us to lose (Six alive, lynch a town, five into night, scum kill one, two town versus two scum, scum win), we’d either have to lynch correctly, risking losing if wrong, or no lynch, putting us with two (free scum kills) dead pro-town players, and the only information available: their deaths.
Hence, for the pure sake of information (Either proving me right, or showing just how wrong I am about Peace), I would support a lynch of Peace if approaching the deadline.
If nowhere near a deadline, I would MUCH prefer a lynch of Amished over that of Peace, though.

Reading through this novel

Not my fault I write stories…

I wasn't confirming a dead town.

You were giving points both against and in favor of Sensfan, hence, a case on Sensfan, who we know is dead town. Which can qualify, you know.

I was asked about my thought process leading up to the hammer.

And as most of the points you were thinking about were against Sensfan, you were also giving a case—beautifully written, I might add—on him in the process.

I was explaining all of my thoughts throughout the game up til that point because I was asked to do so.

And I believe you.

Oooh, stalker. Got it.

I prefer to call it keeping a tab on an old friend.
Though, seriously, I saw his name at the top of the Newbie game list, and my current games at the time were finishing/finished/slowed down/at a point where I couldn’t post anymore, so I decided to take a look, got addicted, and now, I’m here.
Speaking of which, when I have the time to do so, there’s this one game run by Iamausername that I really want to spectate, as he was the mod of Newbie 742 (…And Alduskkel replaced into that game, I believe—need to check closer), a game I had much fun in.

Ald living up to your expectations?

Surpassing what he did as scum, to say the least. He’s worthy of being an IC, and has earned that experience.

Yes, he could've, or he could've also claimed a VT, which he was.

No need to point out the blatantly obvious…

You're assuming the worst while I'm assuming truth from a VT that really had nothing to hide.

I’m what I like to call the optimistic pessimist—I keep the hopes as high as they can go, hoping for the absolute best (lynching scum two days in a row). However, my mind sees the absolute worst, and concludes that this is a scenario which should be avoided at all costs.
So, yes, I’m assuming the worst.

Without letting him have a chance at it, you're right we can never know, but I personally would've liked to see what would've happened.

With luck, Josh is still hanging around and keeping relatively good tabs on this game.
Hi, Josh! Hope to see you in the post-game!

While too long of a day 1 can just get on everyone's nerves

I find long days are very relaxing—they help the soul scum hunt. Nothing like the thrill in your body as you try to scum hunt with plenty of time to do so, instead of being rushed by the adrenaline caused by deadlines.

Though I enjoy long days, and sometimes, wish they’d go much longer, Day 1 lasted as long as it needed to, in my mind.

I guess it's just my opinion that it requires 20+ pages of posting (obviously depending on the circumstances, people being replaced, needing prods would shorten, while everyone active would lengthen the # for me) for me to even start to think that there's enough discussion.

Well, at least there wasn’t a 25-page day one…

Scum giving a pro-town suggestion benefits them by making them look more townie, but also benefits the town by having an actually good suggestion.

It can do more than that—every suggestion that supposedly helps the town more (making it a pro-town suggestion) has at least some benefit to the scum in the long run (like me explaining the scenarios—it helped the town more than scum, in my opinion, yes, but the fact remains, I might have helped them a little). Like mass claims: depending on the situation, it either helps the town, or the scum, more, yet in many stages of the games, seemingly favors the town.

Yes, you could (and so far have) defended peacesells, but why couldn't he defend himself?

He SAID he couldn’t, somewhere in the game. Want me to find the quote for you?

Right now he's trying to do exactly that by going through his thoughts at the hammer.

Yet at the time I started defending him, he was practically refusing to defend his actions at all—that’s changed, yes, but it was true at the time.

Concerning 2, would it really be that suicidal for scum?

Again, it’s a matter of numbers.
I’m editing it out for now, and will post it if I feel the need is necessary (which will be when I feel it helps the town more than scum)





EDITED OUT
-We keep Peace alive. Say we still mislynch.
-They shoot Peace.
-Tomorrow, those who HAD thought it was Peace and were going to vote them…lose their primary suspect. Which makes them rethink the game, which makes them more likely to catch scum, which narrows down the possibilities for FINDING the scum.
As there would be five alive,
Instead of a lynch on Peace (which would be a win for the scum), each pro-town player has at least a one out of two shot at hitting scum with their guesses—in other words, they probably have 50% chance, per townie, to be picked off as scum, where they would have had much better chances with Peace.
/EDITED OUT

If they really think that Peace is a power role, they'll know if it's safe/unsafe to target that person depending on the setup, giving them an easier time overall.

Not if even a single townie doesn’t believe Peace’s claim—in that case, town loses…

It seems as likely as leaving a suspected power role alive regardless of their scumminess to me at least.

Scum use crazy tactics—leaving a doctor alive but roleblocked to cast doubt on the legitimacy of that claim, or even crazier, keeping the doctor alive when the death of the roleblocker confirms them. If they believe it benefits themselves more, they will do it.

I just think that you're not giving that option as much thought just based on your own playstyle, while I think objectively it's not as unlikely as you think.

Might I add first-hand experience as well?

If they do want to be "newbie slayed" or have their "mind atrophy" sure, refer back to this game. .......

Ah, you read my sig. That comes from the difference between replacing in at page nine (this game, no complaints about large posts; the game had already begun), and starting from the beginning with long posts, which is apparently rather annoying.

And we have your word that I'm scum.

Nope—you have my assurance that I think you are scum. There’s a difference.
Possible rolefishing, there, as the difference…well, I’m not going to even explain what the difference between the rolefishing way of saying it and the normal way.

Obviously I'm trying to change that perception for the whole town, but we'll see how well that works out.

Sensfan’s opinion, which does carry at least some weight: Pro-town players shouldn’t need to fully convince others that they are pro-town, knowing they are pro-town. Pro-scum do, in order to avoid being called pro-scum.
I believe it was along those lines, or something like that.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't "fear" a lynch, but I don't exactly enjoy it

Nobody enjoys being lynched. ‘Cept for jesters, of course, but that’s another matter.

Oh, and by the way, people who don’t like reading novels:
YOU WIN!
Page 21 is lagging my MOUSE because it’s so big. I thought it was just my connection because it’s a wireless mouse…
Then I went to another computer and got the same problem.
And on the same computer, another tab in Firefox had no such problem.
The page must be humongous. While I really enjoy reading pages that long and take it as a challenge…well, when it affects my computers, THAT is going too far for even ME. :/ Let’s vow to try and keep 22 as small as possible, ‘kay?
(I’m RUSHING to finish this so that it will. I’m praying that it will. Or if it doesn’t, that the mod will take mercy and delete some duplicate posts to bump this on to page 21. )

Like you're the only one that wants honesty.

I was pointing out the mere possibility.
I still called it a town tell, didn’t I?

I doubt any of my posts break the 5page mark if copied into a word document so I'm still way behind you and Ald

Shall we test that theory?

"Best of the rest" if you will.

That works fine for me.

@Ald, sorry you lost the post, shouldn't take too long to get one back up I hope.

Hopefully long enough for me to finish your posts first.

Grrr, dammit Mastin, making me spend about 2 hours on this post.

Do you know how long it takes me to dissect a post? Including my uber-short posts, it generally takes an average of TWO HOURS.
So I can do more than sympathize with you on that point—most of my posts of these lengths take days to write up.

I wanted to go to bed a lot earlier.

Mafia? Need sleep? Bah. Ridiculous.
(This is my way of telling a joke—no tunneling was intended)

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:56 am Post subject: 517

So much for THAT hope of mine. :/
Note to self: Type faster next time, Mastin!
(Or better yet, take your time and type slower, Alduskkel! )
NOTE: I might have accidentally missed some questions/points of yours, Alduskkel, while searching for older quotes (I’m starting to understand why people used the Pyramid system in 688…), and forgot about the original.

There are two interpretations. You assumed that the one that made Data/Amished look scummier was the correct one. Hence, GUPI (as we will now take to abbreviating it).

Two interpretations, one a null to town tell, and the other a scum tell. Everyone’s going to have an opinion that falls into one of the two on the matter. Mine is on the scum(my) option.

FACT: peacesells put himself as the possible hammerer, not anyone else. Why should I assume that it was poor wording on his part when the evidence clearly says otherwise?

This, I see as clear GUPI logic.

You said:

This is wrong for two reasons:
1: If it fits his pattern as scum,
2: If it doesn't fit his pattern as town.
There is no "or" there. The way you word it, you are listing two reasons as to why Data is scummy based on meta reasons.

Nor was there an ‘and’ in there.
I was giving two possible reasons.
I failed to specify that only one applied.
In that same post, I said that we have no scum-meta on Data, which heavily implied that the first was not true, and if I recall correctly, I clearly mark the second as being true, yet never once mention the first as being true.
There’s nothing more to be seen there.

Because it's totally legal for me to start a thread in Mafia Discussion to get information with regards to this game!!

Ask the other players in this game, and discuss it after the game’s over. I’m nearly positive others would support my view.

Maybe peace figured out the defense.

I find this extremely doubtful, given what I’ve seen of Peace’s play.

I'm starting to think he just didn't think about it.

Which would most likely be a null tell, not a scum tell.

How is it GUPI? I think we're starting to abuse the term.

You were heavily implying both Peace and I were scum.

So you say.

And so, I swear on my reputation, that I wouldn’t create such a strong defense for my partner, while not in lylo. It would be just suicidal, for if I was unable to sway the town away, I’d be the next lynch target, almost guaranteed.

This is just your word about what you would do as scum.

On epicmafia, I’ve never, ever defended my partner at all, unless the attacks against said partner were incredibly scummy and worthy of defending by any wanting-to-be-pro-town-appearing-player. But besides that, yes, I have nothing to give as proof. No game with my current playstyle has given me the role of scum.

As if I can trust your opinion on such a matter.

I am well aware that you have only my word on the matter. People have had only my word in previous games that I have completed, and I wasn’t trusted even after claiming cop. Heck, I’m the one who raised the points in the first place about knowing full good and well that people couldn’t trust just my word.

How was it "acceptable"?

Because I haven’t seen Josh’s playstyle and while I don’t believe he would have, the possibility exists that he would have claimed a power role—which would have been disastrous.

How would a claim have been "unfavorable"?

Because he had five possible claims:
1: Mafia Goon
2: Mafia Roleblocker
3: Vanilla Townie
4: Cop
5: Doctor

If he claimed anything but 3, it would have been a great disadvantage to the town.

What part of the "Newbie game =/= retarded people playing." quote do you not get?

Retards and Idiots are two different things, in my mind.

We should consider scenarios based on that lack of knowledge at the time.

Agreed.

It wouldn't hint at it, it would just be them saying that they agree with me.

Which CAN be a hint.

It would be very easy for VTs to say they agreed with me, hence it would be a bad rolefish.

Yet a possible one which might have the VTs answering differently than power roles on the matter…

Again, I said you might be lying about what you thought about the game while spectating if you're scum.

Again, I swear that it is what I was thinking as a spectator.

This would naturally be advantageous.

Regardless of how advantageous it is, the fact remains, it’s the truth.

And why is it broken?

No, likely ridiculously and unbelievably concerned pro-town player.

You were saying you were ‘fixing’ my quote—you were, in truth, breaking it and giving it the opposite matter, based off of your opinion.

Why?

I’ve stated this several times, I do believe. Want me to search through the thread and quote ‘em all?

Why not?

He said it was too quiet. He then said he was going quiet, offering no explanation as to why, leaving it open to interpretation. Your interpretation is the GUPI one, where you say it is hypocrisy (AKA, a scum tell). Mine was of honesty on the matter, and possibly a warning to the town about him about to go quiet.

Lack of devotion? Lies.

*I* am the one who replaced out, Alduskkel! *I* remember my own motives on the matter. There is no lie involved.

You just had computer problems.

That was an excuse. Nothing more. The fact that I was able to post and say I needed replacement was proof enough that I was able to play through that other computer—I certainly watched. I never brought it up before because I, well, found it embarrassing. I still do, bringing it up solely as a point in defense of my case.

Anyway, my point is that a lack of devotion to a game is not a scum tell.

And I disagree very, very strongly.

You continue to neglect ALL THE TOWN REPLACEMENTS.

Which I see far less often than scum replacements, I might add.

Surely there was a lack of devotion on the part of at least some of the replaced players, no?

Your logic:
If it’s more likely to be done by scum than by town, then it is a scum tell.
I’ve seen it done far more often by scum than by town.
Hence, at least in my experience, it is more of a scum tell than anything else.

So, you can understand someone basically ignoring all other posts from other players? Because that's what peacesells was implying there.

Yes. Very easily understand. Although I disapprove of it, I understand.

You lost me somewhere in that hedge maze of words.

You seemed to do something which I interpreted as admitting to hypocrisy.
Yet you say that Dizard’s post (which I see as honesty) was hypocrisy, when he could have just stayed silent.
The two are the same idea.

Again, I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

You were saying that I was assuming the worst about your admitted mistake, which could have been interpreted as hypocrisy. I was pointing out how it’s hard to exactly think the best of a situation such as that.

So... that's tunnel blindness then, since you are apparently unable to see another possibility?

No. I recognize the possibility, and follow your train of thought…yet when I weigh the evidence, I just can’t see it as true—and this is mainly due to a conflict of experience, from what I can tell, and due to this, I have trouble seeing the possibility as being more probable than the opposite, in which, he is town.

Translation: I know you are, but what am I?

Not quite.
“I see you as using it, but in this case, don’t see it as being such.”
Would be a more accurate translation.

I'm just pointing out that dizardin's eagerness to play is a null tell. If it was GUPI, I would be claiming it was a scum tell.

Hmm, fair point.

He was saying that he wanted to scum hunt, and that's a null tell. That's what anyone would say. Townies would say it because it's true; scum will say it because they want to look like townies.

It isn’t true, for I’ve seen scum be obvious, painting signs on their back screaming ‘lynch me’. I’ve also seen townies sit around and do nothing, JUST because they’re a townie, or follow the cop. The thing is, I see scum doing this more often than town on epicmafia, where I draw a good portion of my experience from.

What does Newbie 742 have to do with anything?

Alright, this post is already mega long, and if I post in time, it’s already on a long page; no harm in pulling dozens of quotes from that game.

What misinterpretations happened in it, and in what posts?

They happened from the start of day two at least up to the point where I claimed cop—a gap of many pages.

I already have to respond to your ad infinitum posts, do I have to read a whole second game? Not to mention the other game I'm currently in.

It wouldn’t take much to find it, but as you don’t know where to look (page four up to where I claim, really), I find it best to quote examples.

I think by “I Can't see you as scum, you mean “I won't see you as scum”. A much more pro-town thing to say would have been “I don't see you as scum”. The former implies that you are trying to see scum in places that it doesn't exist, the latter implies that you are trying to find scum where it does. The latter is pro-town, the former is not.

A conflict in opinion which caused some trouble.

Wait, what? The only people I've seen you actively accuse of buddying are Data and Ting

And more—I had previously gone for Kronos and Jeff before Data and Ting, yet Ace had apparently missed this fact—a misinterpretation.

Really now? Are you trying to pin them as scum because of this? Am I scummy for attacking you, even though your actions reek of scum? You do realize that this is a NULL TELL until the defendee's role is known? To quote the Tarhalindur's Standard Tells wiki page, where this scumtell came from:

Points out my misinterpretation of the chainsaw defense.

Yeah, MAJOR misrep here. Did you not see where Ting said that only 7 posts before your own? Major scumtell in my book.

And THIS we debated for PAGES.

My response was this to that particular quote:

Not really. I responded to this, right here:
[cut]
An opinion which further experience might prove wrong, yet I do believe in. Additionally to that, I believe I quoted a page one example which, to me, seemed like Ting interpreting the questions (where I now see it was not the questions, but the questions asked that were in question, upon a reread) as scummy. A slight contradiction is what I saw.

And Ace’s here…

Yes you did, with a misrep. You said he saw asking questions as scummy, where he clearly stated that it was a null-tell. Again, your precondition in parenthesis Nulls this entire argument. A general rule of thumb: If an action needs a precondition, then the action needs not be acted upon.

And so on and so on and so on, add a new quote to be misinterpreted here, and there, and so on.

All were misinterpretations.
None of those people involved in them were scum.
Hence, my personal experience has given me my current opinion on the matter. I can quote more of the game if necessary.

Consistency is not a town tell.

And yet, hypocrisy is a scum tell, in your eyes…
Yea, I strongly disagree. Consistency is as much a town tell as hypocrisy is a scum tell, so if you’re going to call a person a hypocrite and scum due to it, then I will show why a person is consistent and probable town.

Well, that post certainly implies that dizardin is trying to exacerbate a problem rather than help it.

We have no way of knowing this is true. To assume it is would be to use GUPI logic and tunneling. I’ve kept an open mind on the matter.

Why should I assume otherwise if I have no evidence to the contrary and have evidence in favor of it as well?

Besides the ‘open to interpretation’ quote itself, what evidence may you offer? I’ve seen none.

I love how you continue to claim that you think I'm pro-Town while slowly building up a case against me

Let me phrase it this way:
While I have thought you to be pro-town,
And I have many suspects who are greater than you,
Your posts on this matter are at the very least concerning.
I think you’re pro-town still, Alduskkel. It’d practically taking all of my suspects flipping town for that opinion to change. Your posts show logic, good reasoning, and make sense. Which is either incredible scum play, or true town play.
Also, you didn’t play this well when you were scum in Newbie 688.

by accusing me of role fishing

Role fishing has always been something I’ve taken to be very serious (and is also something I rather take offense at being accused of, because I take rolefishing seriously). If I see a possible role fish, I point it out.

and now "contradictions" that are obviously just poor wordings on my part;

We share this in common—
We’ve both got possibly the worst choice of words in the history of scum players.

tell me, what scum motive do I have for changing "answer without evidence" to "non-answer"?

It could be done in an attempt to subtly make Dizard look worse.
However, I was noting this as yet another example of your particularly bad wording, as it means something (personal, I might add) to me—it wasn’t me making an accusation that you were scum.

So?

So, my experience shows that pro-town players do it very often.

Just because pro-Town people have done it doesn't mean it isn't a scum tell.

I’ve seen pro-town players give up without a fight on LYLO, Alduskkel. I’ve seen two self-hammers from townies in a single game, and one townie who practically refused to explain his scummy actions.
And that’s only in recent history.
In recent history, I can’t recall seeing scum just give up.

Hence, I find it to be a null tell. Not scum tell, not town tell. Null.

Scum tells are merely things that scum are more likely to do;

And this is not one of them!

it is by no means impossible for Townies to do it.

True, but as you said, it’s the ratio—and I’ve seen town do it fairly often, which conflicts with it being a ‘scum tell’, by your own definition.

Besides, what if Data/Amished is a pro-Town player with no refutation to the accusations against him (and I'm not saying he is)?

If I raised this as a point against Data, then I hereby take it back—this point is valid. As I said, not defending yourself is a null tell, which means the logic can’t be applied to Amished’s Predecessor, Data.

And how's that Pro-Town?

1: He was explaining his thought process,
2: He was frustrated that the rest of the town was ignoring his opinion on who the scum would be.
Amongst others.

Data pretty much just flat out refused to play, and barely did anything. peacesells has the ability to post good stuff

Then you agree with me, then? ‘Cause, this is basically what I had been saying.

And anyway, you can't just always dismiss scummy players as VIs.

Of course not, but we have to keep it in mind.

omfg you suck die die die i hate you! omg vote alduskkel i hate you all i hope town dies in a fire

...was that a town tell?

No—you worded it wrong.
It’d be a town tell if it was along these lines:
“WHY THE *censored for content* ARE THE IC’S PLAYING SO BAD, AND WHY CAN’T THE REST OF THE TOWN SEE THIS?!? AHG! THIS IS SO FRUSTRATING!
XXX is scum.
YYY is scum.
Listen to me, *censored again*, people!
Grah.”
It can be without the caps. But you get the general idea, anyway.

I very rarely see scum do stuff such as that.

I very often see town do things along those lines.

And how does that make it more likely that newbie Town would do this? I already pointed out the potential advantages scum would have.

And I’ve pointed out why it has benefits for a pro-town player as well.

Nothing. That's why I'm saying it's a null tell.

I suppose so. It’s a valid point.

That's not a refutation of my point, that's an addition.

You were using it as an example of why he would do it as scum, and why his team (the scum, in your mind) would benefit from it.
I pointed out how it would benefit the scum, in giving them an easier target—they are not remotely the same thing, Alduskkel.

How can my cases be good while you simultaneously say that you can't see peacesells being scum?

They make sense, they have logic, they…wait a second…I’ve said this before.
Yet just because they’re good doesn’t mean I will blindly follow them. Instead, I look at the case from my perspective, and weigh the evidence myself.
In Peace’s case, it contradicted your logic, again, probably due to a conflict in experience.

Because of earlier actions by him and dizardin, which continue to outweigh the Town tells.

I want you to swear on your life, honor, and soul or something of that effect that you’re not lying when you say this sentence:
I am not tunneling on Peace, and am at least seeing the town tells dropped.

Yes, but you've once again ignored my question of when to draw the line between a VI and a mafioso.

One can’t answer it with facts alone—and when this is the case, it falls to opinions.
Didn’t you pick that up? I thought it was obvious that is what I was saying. :/

I do not believe everything I have said in this game. But I did believe it all at the time I posted it. In that way I can be honest about it.

Fair enough.

You and Ironhead should switch usernames.

Do I even want to know?

Seriously, dizardin said that people were being too quiet, then said he was going to be quiet. There's no ambiguity there.

Of course not—what you state here is fact.
What is open to interpretation is WHY he was going quiet.

Are you saying that the hammer itself is a null tell or that the timing of his explanation is a null tell?

Both, but ESPECIALLY the latter. You’re free to disagree with the former if you wish.

Uh, did you just admit that you know I'm pro-Town?

Now, now, Alduskkel, you should know better than any other person here from your own posting style and experience that some players have infamously bad choices of words—in this case, me.
I’m saying that I’m attempting to see your opinion from your stance, of you knowing you’re pro-town. (Or, at the very least, saying that you know you’re pro-town)

All I'm saying is that I'm strongly in favor of everyone not assuming that they're pro-Town in their posts, unless they are confirmed Town TO EVERYONE.

Fair enough. Experience shows me that this doesn’t do the town very good, but then again, my experience is different than yours.

That way anyone can read it and relate easily.

See above…

"Maybe, maybe not." is not a power role claim.

It would be to me.

I may or may not be a power role. Am I obviously a power role now?

No, but if specifically asked, and they answer with that, then it is almost guaranteed that they are. So says my experience.

Plus, I pointed out in my FIRST POST IN THIS GAME that unnecessary VT claims are bad.

Hence, why I was pointing it out as being rather anti-town—if he answered, it would’ve been a roleclaim, practically.

Why is it doubtful?

Well,
1: I think you’re town,
2: I think Peace is town,
3: In the very small theoretical scenario that I was giving, for you to both be scum, you’d need to be bussing your partner—which would leave us with an extra mislynch at the very least, so it would be counter-productive. I can understand (and have seen you do it before) bussing on lylo, but before?
Suicidal.

Once again, you continue to build up a case on me whilst stalwartly claiming that you think I'm pro-Town elsewhere in this post.

I was pointing out the inconsistency. The inconsistency was a little scummy, yes, but it’d take a billion of such inconsistencies to change my opinion, as they are coming from you, a person known for a bad choice of words.

Plus, I'm being paranoid about being wrong in my guess as to who's scum -- dizardin was being jumpy scum.

It didn’t seem like it was that way to me.

Oh ho ho. Now we see the gradual switching of your stance.

Far from it—I still think you are pro-town. I’m just less certain of it than I was before.
You HAD been at the absolute top of my list of pro-town players for rather some time.
To say the least, you’re no longer holding that position.

You don't want to be inconsistent, so you slowly change it -- from seeing me as pro-Town to the next lynch candidate.

If Peace flips town, who would you suspect? The town?
I know I’d think Amished is scum.
But you’ve been the one who has gone the heaviest after Peace, and if Peace flips town, it looks very bad for you, Alduskkel.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now, and assume that you're just a misguided

Townie

.

A-hem…
(Townie, as in, the role? If so, rolefishing. If townie, as in, pro-town player, then nothing. Take the ten seconds extra if you mean the second, Alduskkel.)

So you're saying that you're not attacking him, while also calling him a large suspect of yours. Inconsistency.

I am not actively attacking him.
When was the last time I made a point against Manho when it wasn’t also a point against Amished or a point to defend Peace?
The answer should be rather some time.
Yet he is still a major suspect of mine.

There’s no inconsistency, there. I’m mainly attacking Amished and defending Peace. Nowhere have I recently been attacking Manho.
Hence, this point is inaccurate.

It was April Fool's Day. Cut Data a break.

I was dead serious on wanting to lynch kronos for his ‘joke’ in Newbie 742. I don’t give people breaks when they make comments such as that.

But, unlike you, not all of them could stand as short stories/novellas.

But all your recent ones have…

So I heard you like to tunnel.

Yea, I do—trying to overcome it, though, and keep a more open mind.
I wasn’t saying that is what was said. I was saying that is what I interpreted it as. The first is anywhere from tunneling to twisting of words. The second is pointing out further concern/suspicion against my top suspect.

I'm pretty sure Amished isn't just OMGUSing here.

I didn’t say he was.

Only in matters of particular importance -- there was no deadline and we had plenty of time. So waiting for a role claim isn't an unreasonable request, and peacesells should have honored it, particularly because I gave (what I think to be) good reasoning in favor of a role claim.

And Peace stated that he thought Joe was also scum, for disagreeing yet not hammering himself, so he hammered for it.

No. I'm serious. Just no.

Fine, you can be called ‘Anonymous poster’ if you don’t want your name to be read by thousands of people in a published book.

(Unlike you, I’m not serious)

HMMM THIS ISN'T A SMUDGE AT ALL

smudge=subtly planting the idea that a player is scum without backing it up

As a spectator in this game, there are two very possible scum pairs:
Alduskkel, Manho,
vs.
Peace, Mastin

I was bringing up what it could look like to a spectator (speculation, as I’m no longer a spectator), but I specifically said that I didn’t believe you two to be (both, at the very least) scum.

Maybe lasaiki thinks I have a better word:content ratio than you do

I fail to see how—I respond to your content, you respond to mine.
I respond you your jokes, you respond to mine.
I do nothing you do not do in turn.

So, again, I fail to see how I have less content.

What makes me so interesting?

You played well and helped teach me how to play. I saw your name at the top of the Newbie Game list, so I looked. I do it for most players I’ve played with, AND I do it with mods as well. I try to catch previous mods of mine modding again so that I can play under them again.

And yet you go on and on about how a claim would have been bad!

If it had been anything other than VT when that was his role, then, yes, it would have been. There’s nothing more to that matter.

Yet you deign to say that you don't think he would have claimed a power role?

Yea, he probably would not have—but there was no way to be certain of it.

Doesn't your claim that if Josh had role claimed that it would have been bad for the Town utterly fall apart once you admit that you don't think Josh would have been dumb enough to actually hurt the Town by claiming a power role?

We’re debating a worthless matter, here. It would have been bad, had Josh claimed anything other than VT. I don’t know his posting style, so have no way of knowing that he would’ve claimed VT, although—amongst other reasons—due to your first post in the game, I find it doubtful he would have. Yet the possibility did exist.

Probably me.

Tomorrow would also be lylo—so you’re saying that you’d think that you’d be the most suspicious tomorrow if Peace were lynched and flipped town? Wouldn’t that, well, kinda make us lose if you’re also town?

The attacks on Peace are weak, to say the least.

there's nothing that Peace can't be attacked for successfully.

Inconsistency.

No, Augmentation.
The first says that the attacks on Peace are weak.
The second says that there’s nothing that Peace can’t be attacked for successfully.

Put together, they say that Peace can be attacked for anything with reasoning that may or may not be scummy (but probably isn’t), yet those attacks are mostly weak.

I fail to see how that’s inconsistent.

I severely doubt that.

I could’ve sworn I put ‘probably’ or “might’ve” in there, somewhere.

dizardin does not strike me as a person who comes up with weird and elaborate strategies like that.

It’s only an unusual strategy if he’s scum. If he’s town, then it’s normal to do that.

They probably mean nothing and are unintentional.

Perhaps.

You're the one who picked up on it.

I wasn’t around at the time, hence, it could not have been in any way directed at me.

Plus, I have never actually successfully caught a power role.

Nor have I—I’ve jumped out at many’a’shadows, though.

Frankly, if the first scenario is the case it would point more toward you being scum, since you're the one who's actually finding these tells.

1: first scenario has the scum attacking Peace due to the tells, which I am clearly not doing.
2: Like I said, I wasn’t around at the time.

Power roles fear the kill.

Bad choice of words, Alduskkel. I believe I’ve already stated why a sentence such as this makes me think of rolefishing.

And I always fear being lynched

Why?

By the way Mastin, your role fishing can still cause the scum to roleblock peacesells, assuming they have a Roleblocker.

Key word: If.
If they have a roleblocker, there’s a 50% chance there are no power roles (waste), and a 50% chance there are two—meaning they’d only block one of two if Peace were a power role, and that there’s a fair chance that it wouldn’t do them any good.

Not to mention the information they gain about the setup.

1: They know one of two setups we’re in already. Knowing there’s a power role only helps them in one of the four scenarios given, where there would be two power roles, not one.
2: I’m known for jumping at shadows—as you said, it could have truly been unintentional, and Peace would not be a pr in this scenario.

So even if we don't overtly lose a power role by you noting power role tells coming from peacesells, it'll still benefit the scum more than you think.

For the above reasons, I tend to disagree.

anyway I don’t like what you want to imply here.

Aside from rolefishing, buddying is one of the most serious scum tells I know of, in my experience, which is why I take very seriously any possible instance of it.

I take the game seriously.

As do I.

Mastin in post 508 sumarizes: data/amished should be scum.

And Peace shouldn’t be scum, mind you.

Well, let’s see how your big post helps me to understand your point. Let’s take this as an example. These are the things you said about Amished, which supposedly are new evidence against him:

Posts are directed at all players. Similarly, points from them are going to be directed at multiple players.

Welcome to the game
I wish I could remember the evil smiley in Microsoft Word
Thanks
Evil
blablabla...
I’m attacking you
More than meta to the case
Your predecessor was scummy.

Alduskkel, Joe, etc., Pretty much all the other players do post un-game-related content. Alduskkel does it just as often as I do. You pointed out all the possible things not relating to the case—yet ignore the fact that there was far more to that post than just that, AND ignore the fact that ALDUSKKEL has ALSO posted similar things.
As for the last three,
1: I was defending my attacks and adding onto them. That’s what scum hunters do.
2: Meta is a powerful weapon—it has several times allowed me to nail AT LEAST half of the scum almost every game I play in Epicmafia.com, based off of who was killed, what people say, etc.
3: And how is ‘your predecessor was scummy’ not a point against Amished? We can’t ignore a predecessor to a player, even if that player has been acting far more pro-town than their predecessor.
Just ask Alduskkel about Newbie 688.

Where, for life´s sake, are you making a case on Data/ Amished????

1: In all of the three last points,
2: And in the rest of the post, which you seem to ignore. Look at the above—
Welcome,
I wish,
Evil,
Blah,
Attack,
Meta,
Predecessor—
If my post was really just THAT, then it’d be far shorter than it is, now, wouldn’t it?

I don’t know how this part post, THAT WE ALL HAD TO READ, shows something useful.

Then you’re blind to what’s right in front of you to see.
Advice: Smileys stick out in posts when browsing. Yet I use them mainly when I’m not contributing something new to my case. Hence, when browsing, you’ll see things not entirely relevant to the game.
SO DO NOT BROWSE.

You’re not backing up your points here.

Oh? Am I?
I bring up my experience to defend my points,
I show my interpretation to the game,
I give evidence,
Cite even more of my experience,
And then clarify if necessary.

How’s that NOT backing up my points?

Seems there’s no connection between what you think and what you write.

There’s more connection between what I think and what I write than what I think and what I say out loud—I stutter, I say the wrong thing, etc. far more often.

Seriously, though, even online, I am infamous for my bad wording, but after a rephrasing, I get the point across well—hence, no; there is a STRONG connection between what I think and what I write.

Please, go to the main points and back up your thesis or I will just read your post summaries (if you post any).

*Sighs*

I’ll post the summary in a short while (not feeling in the mood to do it now—that’d take time to write up, and I’m caught up). It’ll be my page 22 gift, compared to this page 21 curse.

You know this is active lurking but in a greater scale.

ACTIVE LURKING?!?!?!?!?
Again, for emphasis,

ACTIVE LURING

?!?

I’m sacrificing my personal time to type this up. I could be chatting with my online friends on IRC. I could be eating my dinner. I could be writing my stories, I could be playing another game, I could be doing real-life work.
Yet I’m not.
I’m here,
SPENDING HOURS TYPING THIS UP.
Consecutive hours, over multiple days.

It has taken me DAYS to write this. I have sacrificed so much of my time to write this.
Do you know what happened last night?

Two things, when I was typing this:
The first was that I had a bloody finger. That’s right, my middle finger on my left hand was BLEEDING. Did I care? NO. I kept on typing up THIS POST. I got the left half of my keyboard covered in blood in order to try and catch up to the game.
And that’s not all.
I normally go to bed at 1 am during the night.
AFTER doing real-life work, which usually starts at 8 ‘til I finish.

I didn’t, last night. I went STRAIGHT to this computer the SECOND I had finished my dinner, and began typing more of this post. For HOURS I worked on it, and when it was 1:30, I didn’t even care.
I kept on going until 2 am, before tiredness got the better of me and I submitted, my task unfinished.

I sacrificed NOT ONLY SLEEP, BUT WORK AS WELL to contribute my all to this game.

And you accuse me of ACTIVELY LURKING?!?

I…have never, EVER been that offended before. People have ticked me off; I can assure you of that.
But when I’m sacrificing so much to play with you,
And you make such an accusation,
I…
There’s no word for such rage, such frustration, such anger.

I also don’t like the use of meta; people can change or improve their playstyle.

I find it to be a nice tool it helped me determine Sensfan wasn’t mafia, and guess what? He wasn’t.

---

23 pages…drat. I was hoping to break my record.

[Mastin]

A note of mine:
Alduskkel has posted in another topic but not here.

A note to the town:
Keep in mind that the above was typed over days, and that I never once checked up to previously written parts from the different sessions. I don't remember all of them, but it should be fairly obvious that there are some clearly different trains of thought in that post--this taking days to write, that's the reason.

[Alduskkel]

Alduskkel has posted in another topic but not here.

So?

Anyway, I'll respond to that mountain of text soon.

[Alduskkel]

Fortunately I don't need to respond to Mastin's entire post, as a good deal of it was directed at Amished, and I won't answer for him, of course.

@Mastin: What do you actually expect Amished to do? Other than give up and self-vote etc... Amished is not Data. He doesn't know what Data was thinking. How can he even begin to defend himself?

Come off it.

The fact that I was merely raising it as a possibility, not a fact, makes me believe that such a negative response from you makes it far more likely to be true. 735, And, anyone?

You said Amished might have been buddying up. He addressed it. Then you call that scummy? I'm pretty sure defending against accusations isn't scummy...

I don't want to get on anyone's "good side" by sucking up to them.

So you say. We have only your word that you’re telling the truth and not covering for an earlier bad move as scum.

GUPI. It seems to me that you're implying here that Amished is lying here, even if you don't say that exactly. It's like what you've been saying about me "role fishing": it's not what you say, it's how you say it (paraphrased).

I'll have the rest of the town view me as an ally.

So…you want to be seen as a friend of the town?
Again, this, to me, implies you are NOT part of the town, wanting to be their ‘ally’ so that you can avoid being lynched for a victory on behalf of the scum. In other words, a scum tell.

Wow Mastin, way to totally take this quote of Amished's out of context... he was talking about what he would do if he was scum. Hence, of course he's talking about not being part of the Town.

Keep in mind that I'd want this no matter my role

So you say…

And once again, you subtly imply Amished is lying without actually stating it so you have room to backtrack if you're scum.

scum cause that's what I'm trying to be.

Oh, my, I couldn’t have asked for a larger slip.

This is even more out of context than the last! The full quote is:

Come off it. I don't want to get on anyone's "good side" by sucking up to them. I would much rather prefer to be convincing and logical in my arguments so that while not being buddy-buddy, I'll have the rest of the town view me as an ally. Keep in mind that I'd want this no matter my role; townie because that's what I am, scum cause that's what I'm trying to be. Neither of those cases involve sucking up to anybody.

So basically he's saying that, regardless of alignment, he wants to be viewed as an ally. That's not a slip at all.

These ridiculous attempts at making Amished look scummy by taking quotes out of context deserves a

FoS

for Mastin.

And by the way, so-called "slips" are idiotic, and not reliable in the least. From Newbie 681:

There's a huge flaw in your argument MM... I would only be giving the scum less targets if I wasn't scum in the first place!

And I was vanilla Town in that game.

I understand taking heat for the person you replaced

LOTS of heat—you’re nearing the fires of the underworld; I suggest you take a heat suit with you, as not even the servants of bad-guys can resist the heat of the rest of the town’s mob…

I'm pretty sure that's mostly just you, Mastin.

@mastin: i was unvoting you because my reason of voting you is that you are scum with peace and you are defending him.

however, i'm still suspecting you as a scum

Inconsistency—you unvoted me because you thought I was scum with peace…and now you’re thinking that I’m just flat-out scum. So why unvote in the first place?

More out of context quoting. The full quote from manho, elaborating on why he still suspects you is:

however, i'm still suspecting you as a scum defending and rolefishing peace.

defending and rolefishing peace.

A quote from Alduskkel which I am too lazy to locate

THIS IS A MANHO QUOTE. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!

(post 514 is the source)

Seriously Mastin? First you take quotes out of context, now you just plain lie? Not to mention your continuous portrayal of Amished as extremely scummy and you setting me (or manho, depending on which way the wind blows) up as the Day 3 lynch.

Unvote: peacesells. Vote: Mastin.

Oooh, stalker. Got it.

I prefer to call it keeping a tab on an old friend.

I hate to break your heart Mastin... but we're not old friends. We're not even friends. To me, you're just another player in this game who makes really long posts that make me feel obligated to respond with equally long posts.

Speaking of which, when I have the time to do so, there’s this one game run by Iamausername that I really want to spectate, as he was the mod of Newbie 742 (…And Alduskkel replaced into that game, I believe—need to check closer), a game I had much fun in.

Newbie 746? I've been in that one since the beginning... I'm an IC there too.

Ald living up to your expectations?

Surpassing what he did as scum, to say the least. He’s worthy of being an IC, and has earned that experience.

I've certainly come a long way from being the village idiot of Newbie 681...

You're assuming the worst while I'm assuming truth from a VT that really had nothing to hide.

I’m what I like to call the optimistic pessimist—I keep the hopes as high as they can go, hoping for the absolute best (lynching scum two days in a row). However, my mind sees the absolute worst, and concludes that this is a scenario which should be avoided at all costs.
So, yes, I’m assuming the worst.

GUPI

Yes, you could (and so far have) defended peacesells, but why couldn't he defend himself?

He SAID he couldn’t, somewhere in the game. Want me to find the quote for you?

I know I do.

] I just think that you're not giving that option as much thought just based on your own playstyle, while I think objectively it's not as unlikely as you think.

Might I add first-hand experience as well?

I'd like it.

And we have your word that I'm scum.

Nope—you have my assurance that I think you are scum. There’s a difference.
Possible rolefishing, there, as the difference…well, I’m not going to even explain what the difference between the rolefishing way of saying it and the normal way.

How is Amished role fishing???

Pro-town players shouldn’t need to fully convince others that they are pro-town, knowing they are pro-town. Pro-scum do, in order to avoid being called pro-scum.

And I continue to disagree; as I said earlier, if every pro-Town person can convince every other pro-Town person that they are pro-Town, the game is almost a sure-fire win for the Town.

YOU WIN!
Page 21 is lagging my MOUSE because it’s so big. I thought it was just my connection because it’s a wireless mouse…
Then I went to another computer and got the same problem.
And on the same computer, another tab in Firefox had no such problem.
The page must be humongous. While I really enjoy reading pages that long and take it as a challenge…well, when it affects my computers, THAT is going too far for even ME. :/ Let’s vow to try and keep 22 as small as possible, ‘kay?
(I’m RUSHING to finish this so that it will. I’m praying that it will. Or if it doesn’t, that the mod will take mercy and delete some duplicate posts to bump this on to page 21.)

Good news for you: this will be the first post of page 22.

Grrr, dammit Mastin, making me spend about 2 hours on this post.

Do you know how long it takes me to dissect a post? Including my uber-short posts, it generally takes an average of TWO HOURS.
So I can do more than sympathize with you on that point—most of my posts of these lengths take days to write up.

It takes me an average of 3 hours to respond to just one Mastinian post.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:56 am Post subject: 517

So much for THAT hope of mine. :/
Note to self: Type faster next time, Mastin!
(Or better yet, take your time and type slower, Alduskkel! )

Huh? What are you talking about here?

There are two interpretations. You assumed that the one that made Data/Amished look scummier was the correct one. Hence, GUPI (as we will now take to abbreviating it).

Two interpretations, one a null to town tell, and the other a scum tell. Everyone’s going to have an opinion that falls into one of the two on the matter. Mine is on the scum(my) option.

You fail to explain how this is not GUPI.

FACT: peacesells put himself as the possible hammerer, not anyone else. Why should I assume that it was poor wording on his part when the evidence clearly says otherwise?

This, I see as clear GUPI logic.

Hardly. I have evidence in favor of my conclusion; all peacesells has is his word that he was talking hypothetically, and no actual evidence to corroborate his version of events.

Because it's totally legal for me to start a thread in Mafia Discussion to get information with regards to this game!!

Ask the other players in this game, and discuss it after the game’s over. I’m nearly positive others would support my view.

Okay then, everyone else. Do you or do you not agree with this quote?

scum are more likely to show a lack of devotion to the game.

Maybe peace figured out the defense.

I find this extremely doubtful, given what I’ve seen of Peace’s play.

I don't know, peacesells seems to be fairly good at the game. I think he could come up with it.

How is it GUPI? I think we're starting to abuse the term.

You were heavily implying both Peace and I were scum.

Which I currently think is the case.

So you say.

And so, I swear on my reputation, that I wouldn’t create such a strong defense for my partner, while not in lylo. It would be just suicidal, for if I was unable to sway the town away, I’d be the next lynch target, almost guaranteed.

Sure, whatever.

See what I did there? As noted earlier in this post, you've subtly implied that Amished was lying scum without actually saying it. I just did that to you as an example. Basically, Amished gives you his word on something and then you brush it aside and act like he's lying.

How was it "acceptable"?

Because I haven’t seen Josh’s playstyle and while I don’t believe he would have, the possibility exists that he would have claimed a power role—which would have been disastrous.

If you were brought to L-1, is it okay for someone to hammer you without waiting for a role claim because they haven't seen your playstyle and think you might do something stupid and fake claim?

How would a claim have been "unfavorable"?

Because he had five possible claims:
1: Mafia Goon
2: Mafia Roleblocker
3: Vanilla Townie
4: Cop
5: Doctor

If he claimed anything but 3, it would have been a great disadvantage to the town.

1 and 2 are pointless to list. Like I said, I don't think Josh was dumb, and he wasn't a very emotional player like dizardin. He wouldn't have freaked out or anything. The natural thing for him to do is claim vanilla. Why would he lie about his role? What sort of misguided gambit would fall into his mind as you suppose?

What part of the "Newbie game =/= retarded people playing." quote do you not get?

Retards and Idiots are two different things, in my mind.

Fine, go with idiots. My point remains.

It wouldn't hint at it, it would just be them saying that they agree with me.

Which CAN be a hint.

How so? Give me one reasonable example.

Again, I said you might be lying about what you thought about the game while spectating if you're scum.

Again, I swear that it is what I was thinking as a spectator.

And yet you yourself say that

people c[an't] trust just my word.

Why?

I’ve stated this several times, I do believe. Want me to search through the thread and quote ‘em all?

Give me

one

.

Why not?

He said it was too quiet. He then said he was going quiet, offering no explanation as to why, leaving it open to interpretation. Your interpretation is the GUPI one, where you say it is hypocrisy (AKA, a scum tell). Mine was of honesty on the matter, and possibly a warning to the town about him about to go quiet.

Let's go back to the original dizardin quote.

Will be quiet a while, listen and see.

This is not a warning. This is dizardin saying he is going to bide his time and watch from the sidelines. While not scummy, this is right after he says people are being to quiet. Hence, hypocrisy.

Surely there was a lack of devotion on the part of at least some of the replaced players, no?

Your logic:
If it’s more likely to be done by scum than by town, then it is a scum tell.
I’ve seen it done far more often by scum than by town.
Hence, at least in my experience, it is more of a scum tell than anything else.

Answer the question, Mastin.

So, you can understand someone basically ignoring all other posts from other players? Because that's what peacesells was implying there.

Yes. Very easily understand. Although I disapprove of it, I understand.

How?

You lost me somewhere in that hedge maze of words.

You seemed to do something which I interpreted as admitting to hypocrisy.

What did I do?

Again, I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

You were saying that I was assuming the worst about your admitted mistake, which could have been interpreted as hypocrisy. I was pointing out how it’s hard to exactly think the best of a situation such as that.

You have my word (see what I did there?) that it was just an honest mistake.

He was saying that he wanted to scum hunt, and that's a null tell. That's what anyone would say. Townies would say it because it's true; scum will say it because they want to look like townies.

It isn’t true, for I’ve seen scum be obvious, painting signs on their back screaming ‘lynch me’. I’ve also seen townies sit around and do nothing, JUST because they’re a townie, or follow the cop. The thing is, I see scum doing this more often than town on epicmafia, where I draw a good portion of my experience from.

And how similar is epicmafia to mafiascum?

I want to scum hunt. Am I now more pro-Town seeming than before I said that? No. Similarly, it is a null tell for dizardin to say he wants to scum hunt.

(examples of townies misrepresenting other townies' positions (and I use "townies" here to mean pro-Town players)

Okay then.

Consistency is not a town tell.

And yet, hypocrisy is a scum tell, in your eyes…

True! But it does not follow that just because hypocrisy is a scum tell that means that consistency is a town tell. Scum can be consistent. It's easy.

Well, that post certainly implies that dizardin is trying to exacerbate a problem rather than help it.

We have no way of knowing this is true. To assume it is would be to use GUPI logic and tunneling. I’ve kept an open mind on the matter.

We have no way of knowing anything is true, short of the death of a player and a Cop's results (No this is not role fishing. This is me noting the exceptions to my statements. Get used to it. I'm not stopping because you think it's role fishing.) So this is pretty meaningless to me, Mastin.

Why should I assume otherwise if I have no evidence to the contrary and have evidence in favor of it as well?

Besides the ‘open to interpretation’ quote itself, what evidence may you offer? I’ve seen none.

The evidence I have is that dizardin says in one post two things:

1. People are being too quiet.
2. He is going to be quiet.

That is hypocrisy.

So?

So, my experience shows that pro-town players do it very often.

Link please. Or, let me guess, this happened on epicmafia, amirite?

Just because pro-Town people have done it doesn't mean it isn't a scum tell.

I’ve seen pro-town players give up without a fight on LYLO, Alduskkel. I’ve seen two self-hammers from townies in a single game, and one townie who practically refused to explain his scummy actions.
And that’s only in recent history.
In recent history, I can’t recall seeing scum just give up.

dizardin didn't vote for himself at any point. He just plain didn't have a good defense. I think that, if a player has good accusations against them, and they have no refutation, and no scummier player is available, then they should be lynched.

And how's that Pro-Town?

1: He was explaining his thought process,
2: He was frustrated that the rest of the town was ignoring his opinion on who the scum would be.
Amongst others.

And how are these Town tells? Scum will explain their thought process too. Frustration isn't a Town tell either.

Data pretty much just flat out refused to play, and barely did anything. peacesells has the ability to post good stuff

Then you agree with me, then? ‘Cause, this is basically what I had been saying.

I don't agree with you when you say that peacesells is pro-Town, but I do think he has made

some

pro-Town posts.

omfg you suck die die die i hate you! omg vote alduskkel i hate you all i hope town dies in a fire

...was that a town tell?

No—you worded it wrong.
It’d be a town tell if it was along these lines:
“WHY THE *censored for content* ARE THE IC’S PLAYING SO BAD, AND WHY CAN’T THE REST OF THE TOWN SEE THIS?!? AHG! THIS IS SO FRUSTRATING!
XXX is scum.
YYY is scum.
Listen to me, *censored again*, people!
Grah.”
It can be without the caps. But you get the general idea, anyway.

I very rarely see scum do stuff such as that.

I very often see town do things along those lines.

I refuse to support emotional breakdowns and temper tantrums as being Town tells. That just seems ridiculous, and sets a bad standard, I think. And anyway, why would I decry the ICs? I am one!

That's not a refutation of my point, that's an addition.

You were using it as an example of why he would do it as scum, and why his team (the scum, in your mind) would benefit from it.
I pointed out how it would benefit the scum, in giving them an easier target—they are not remotely the same thing, Alduskkel.

I did not say that they were the same thing. I said that you were merely adding to my point, rather than refuting it.

Oh, and I was browsing GD a bit while writing this post, and I noticed Elmo's signature:

Succinctness is pro-town.

Ahem.

Because of earlier actions by him and dizardin, which continue to outweigh the Town tells.

I want you to swear on your life, honor, and soul or something of that effect that you’re not lying when you say this sentence:
I am not tunneling on Peace, and am at least seeing the town tells dropped.

I am not tunneling on Peace, and am at least seeing the town tells dropped.

But then again, I didn't say that, I typed it. But then again, I didn't type that, I copy and pasted that.

Now, it's only fair that you

copy and paste

say this:
I am not tunneling in on Amished, and do not have tunnel blindness on peacesells.

You and Ironhead should switch usernames.

Do I even want to know?

I don't know, do you?

Seriously, dizardin said that people were being too quiet, then said he was going to be quiet. There's no ambiguity there.

Of course not—what you state here is fact.
What is open to interpretation is WHY he was going quiet.

To slow down discussion.

"Maybe, maybe not." is not a power role claim.

It would be to me.

Why?

I may or may not be a power role. Am I obviously a power role now?

No, but if specifically asked, and they answer with that, then it is almost guaranteed that they are. So says my experience.

Link? Or was this epicmafia too?

Plus, I pointed out in my FIRST POST IN THIS GAME that unnecessary VT claims are bad.

Hence, why I was pointing it out as being rather anti-town—if he answered, it would’ve been a roleclaim, practically.

How so?

3: In the very small theoretical scenario that I was giving, for you to both be scum, you’d need to be bussing your partner—which would leave us with an extra mislynch at the very least, so it would be counter-productive. I can understand (and have seen you do it before) bussing on lylo, but before?
Suicidal.

Preemptive bussing is the most effective kind, if it's well executed. This is because it's not convenient for the bussing scum, so it makes the bussing more believable.

Oh ho ho. Now we see the gradual switching of your stance.

Far from it—I still think you are pro-town. I’m just less certain of it than I was before.[/quote]So it

is

a gradual switching of your stance.

But you’ve been the one who has gone the heaviest after Peace, and if Peace flips town, it looks very bad for you, Alduskkel.

Why? If there's one thing you should know from Newbie 688, it's that being wrong =/= scummy.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now, and assume that you're just a misguided

Townie

.

A-hem…
(Townie, as in, the role? If so, rolefishing. If townie, as in, pro-town player, then nothing. Take the ten seconds extra if you mean the second, Alduskkel.)

Just a general pro-Town player.

Mastin, do you really think that I am scum who is rolefishing? Do you think it's even a possibility? Consider this: if I am scum and am rolefishing, would I really continue to do it even after you continuously call me on it, and no other player other than you responds to it, thus making me look scummier and being ineffective to boot?

It was April Fool's Day. Cut Data a break.

I was dead serious on wanting to lynch kronos for his ‘joke’ in Newbie 742. I don’t give people breaks when they make comments such as that.

Hard ass. What about SensFan?

Only in matters of particular importance -- there was no deadline and we had plenty of time. So waiting for a role claim isn't an unreasonable request, and peacesells should have honored it, particularly because I gave (what I think to be) good reasoning in favor of a role claim.

And Peace stated that he thought Joe was also scum, for disagreeing yet not hammering himself, so he hammered for it.

And why couldn't he have waited for a role claim?

No. I'm serious. Just no.

Fine, you can be called ‘Anonymous poster’ if you don’t want your name to be read by thousands of people in a published book.

It's not the anonymous part that bothers me, it's the "let's try and get this game to 400 pages in microsoft word" part that I don't like, to say the least.

HMMM THIS ISN'T A SMUDGE AT ALL

smudge=subtly planting the idea that a player is scum without backing it up

As a spectator in this game, there are two very possible scum pairs:
Alduskkel, Manho,
vs.
Peace, Mastin

I was bringing up what it could look like to a spectator (speculation, as I’m no longer a spectator), but I specifically said that I didn’t believe you two to be (both, at the very least) scum.

Hmm? Why can't I also be scum with Amished (aside from the fact that I know I'm not scum, but whatever)?

Maybe lasaiki thinks I have a better word:content ratio than you do

I fail to see how—I respond to your content, you respond to mine.
I respond you your jokes, you respond to mine.
I do nothing you do not do in turn.

So, again, I fail to see how I have less content.

Ask lasaiki. It was just a hypothesis of mine.

What makes me so interesting?

You played well and helped teach me how to play. I saw your name at the top of the Newbie Game list, so I looked. I do it for most players I’ve played with, AND I do it with mods as well. I try to catch previous mods of mine modding again so that I can play under them again.

You flatter me. I'm really not that good. Not counting marathon games, I've been lynched both times I've been scum. I have a 40% Town win rate (also not counting marathon games, though those only increase it to 41%). I have a bad habit of getting tunnel vision on newb Town. Need I say more?

Doesn't your claim that if Josh had role claimed that it would have been bad for the Town utterly fall apart once you admit that you don't think Josh would have been dumb enough to actually hurt the Town by claiming a power role?

We’re debating a worthless matter, here. It would have been bad, had Josh claimed anything other than VT. I don’t know his posting style, so have no way of knowing that he would’ve claimed VT, although—amongst other reasons—due to your first post in the game, I find it doubtful he would have. Yet the possibility did exist.

So, you should think peacesells should have waited for a role claim. You say that you doubt Josh would have claimed anything but a Townie. Yet you have said in the past that you can understand why peacesells would hammer without a role claim. How does that work? peacesells's reasoning for hammering w/o an RC isn't even the same as yours. He didn't say anything about hammering for fear of Josh fake claiming. And, ultimately, it may be wise to step away from this topic, because this is about why peacesells hammered w/o an RC, and the possibility of Josh fake claiming was not one of his stated reasons.

Probably me.

Tomorrow would also be lylo—so you’re saying that you’d think that you’d be the most suspicious tomorrow if Peace were lynched and flipped town? Wouldn’t that, well, kinda make us lose if you’re also town?

Obviously. Doesn't that go without saying?

dizardin does not strike me as a person who comes up with weird and elaborate strategies like that.

It’s only an unusual strategy if he’s scum. If he’s town, then it’s normal to do that.

Why wouldn't it be weird for dizardin to deliberately drop power role tells?

Plus, I have never actually successfully caught a power role.

Nor have I—I’ve jumped out at many’a’shadows, though.

I haven't even really jumped out at shadows. Once again, in Newbie 688, the Cop got lynched on Day 1. Then the Doctor had to claim on Day 2 because he was at L-1. So there was very little PR hunting to be done.

Power roles fear the kill.

Bad choice of words, Alduskkel. I believe I’ve already stated why a sentence such as this makes me think of rolefishing.

But it's true. Don't I get points for honesty?

And I always fear being lynched

Why?

If I'm a Mafioso, I'll naturally fear that. If I'm Town, I fear that because it'd be a mislynch.

By the way Mastin, your role fishing can still cause the scum to roleblock peacesells, assuming they have a Roleblocker.

Key word: If.[/quote]I don't use the word "if" in that sentence.

We can’t ignore a predecessor to a player, even if that player has been acting far more pro-town than their predecessor.
Just ask Alduskkel about Newbie 688.

If you're talking about Panamon, then yes, the Town should have paid more attention to his behavior. As for you, mostly you just made weird posts with epic fail logic (sample: "defending myself makes me look scummy" (paraphrased)) so you came across as newb Town, not scummy. And, quite honestly, you weren't scummy, at least in my opinion.

You know this is active lurking but in a greater scale.

ACTIVE LURKING?!?!?!?!?
Again, for emphasis,

ACTIVE LURING

?!?

I’m sacrificing my personal time to type this up. I could be chatting with my online friends on IRC. I could be eating my dinner. I could be writing my stories, I could be playing another game, I could be doing real-life work.
Yet I’m not.
I’m here,
SPENDING HOURS TYPING THIS UP.
Consecutive hours, over multiple days.

Yes, and you're going to have to change that some day Mastin, if you ever want to play more than one Mafia game without sucking up all your free time. As it is, the way you post, I have a feeling even one Mafia would be very time consuming for you.

Two things, when I was typing this:
The first was that I had a bloody finger. That’s right, my middle finger on my left hand was BLEEDING. Did I care? NO. I kept on typing up THIS POST. I got the left half of my keyboard covered in blood in order to try and catch up to the game.

Mastin, are you physically harming yourself for this game? I mean, my God! Take a break or something.

And that’s not all.
I normally go to bed at 1 am during the night.
AFTER doing real-life work, which usually starts at 8 ‘til I finish.

I didn’t, last night. I went STRAIGHT to this computer the SECOND I had finished my dinner, and began typing more of this post. For HOURS I worked on it, and when it was 1:30, I didn’t even care.
I kept on going until 2 am, before tiredness got the better of me and I submitted, my task unfinished.

It's 4:46 AM right now. I've been typing this for 4 hours or so. I do it all in one go, unlike you. Though I do wake up much later than you (10:00 AM-12:00 PM)

Any way Mastin, what lasaiki is trying to say is that she thinks you post primarily "fluff". That is, content-free sentences; padding, in order to appear active without actually contributing. I don't agree though.

I…have never, EVER been that offended before. People have ticked me off; I can assure you of that.
But when I’m sacrificing so much to play with you,
And you make such an accusation,
I…
There’s no word for such rage, such frustration, such anger.

Lighten up Mastin. You're in this game to have fun, not to stress out.