Open 123 - Vengeful Mafia - Game Over! before 752

[Crazy]

@Crazy: I agree with afatchic being the scummiest player, but I want to turn every stone before a lynch. At the moment, Tajo is the least active player. In my experience, laying low is a GF-tell. (Yes, I see the V/LA until the 20th in his sig, but he needs to either post or request a replacement.)

Woah, but you didn't say that, did you? You voted Tajo after you laid out a case against afatchic!

[Artem]

Also, I'm not ready to lynch Tajo yet. If you're not comfortable with him being at L-1, feel free to remove your random vote from him, but I really doubt afatchic or Juls will hammer at this point.

[Artem]

@Crazy: I agree with afatchic being the scummiest player, but I want to turn every stone before a lynch. At the moment, Tajo is the least active player. In my experience, laying low is a GF-tell. (Yes, I see the V/LA until the 20th in his sig, but he needs to either post or request a replacement.)

Woah, but you didn't say that, did you? You voted Tajo after you laid out a case against afatchic!

Oh, for crying out loud:

It also bugs me that Slicey doesn't post. In my experience, lurkers tend be the godfather.

[Crazy]

Also, I'm not ready to lynch Tajo yet. If you're not comfortable with him being at L-1, feel free to remove your random vote from him, but I really doubt afatchic or Juls will hammer at this point.

It doesn't bother me much now; my only concern was that scum might do it at the beginning of the game, get vigged, and then we'd have no information on Day 2.

But now... I bet it would help us more than them if they quicklynched (assuming Tajo is town, of course).

Oh, for crying out loud:

It also bugs me that Slicey doesn't post. In my experience, lurkers tend be the godfather.

I didn't say your suspicion of Tajo was inconsistent... but when you voted him you didn't say that you were doing that because he was a lurker... in fact, you voted him after making a case on afatchic!

[Plum]

Prodding populartajo. Votecount coming soon!

Edit:

Vote Count 04

afatchic - 1 - (Juls)
Artem - 0 - (none)
Crazy - 1 - (afatchic)
populartajo - 2 - (Crazy, Artem)
Juls - 0 - (none)

Not Voting - 1 - populartajo

With five players alive, it'll take three players to shove someone's face in the water fountain.

[Artem]

I didn't say I voted him because he was a lurker. I said I suspect him and afatchic as the scum pair with Tajo being the GF (I suspect Tajo being the GF because of the lurking). Wouldn't you agree that it makes sense to vote for somebody you suspect is the GF, because if you're right, it's an insta-win?

I feel like I'm being told to "show your work" in a math class. :/

[Crazy]

I didn't say I voted him because he was a lurker. I said I suspect him and afatchic as the scum pair with Tajo being the GF (I suspect Tajo being the GF because of the lurking). Wouldn't you agree that it makes sense to vote for somebody you suspect is the GF, because if you're right, it's an insta-win?

I feel like I'm being told to "show your work" in a math class. :/

If you said you voted Tajo because he was a lurker, I'd feel much better about you. Rather, you voted Tajo after making a case on

afatchic

, which made me believe that you voted Tajo because of afatchic's link to him. (the buddying).

That

is scummy.

[Artem]

Alright, sorry for not being clear. Hope it's all cleared up now.

[Juls]

I understood what you meant, Artem. And I agree with you for the most part on tajo being a lurker/GF type. I am, however, torn between Crazy and tajo as the other scum. Crazy is reaching a bit with his arguments on you and tajo is lurking. I am not willing to hammer right now. And I will give ample warning before I even consider it. I really want to hear from tajo at this point. I think afatchic is V/LA too?

[Artem]

Heh, I'm actually torn between Crazy and afatchic as the other scum (Tajo being the first). I was considering posting this:

I don't understand you, Crazy. You obviously suspect me and afatchic as partners. You don't vote either of us. Instead, you're keeping your (still random as far as I can tell) vote on Tajo, who is now at L-1 and who you're in no support of lynching (because, you say, afatchic may have been buddying up to a townie). Instead, you're casting this sideways suspicion on me. Pressuring me if fine, but I keep getting a weird vibe from you.

...but I wasn't sure if I wanted Crazy to know that I suspect him before Tajo posted (because if Tajo and Crazy are both scum, Crazy is parking an L-1 non-justified vote on his partner, which is a dangerous thing to do, so Tajo's reactions would have been good to see). So I saved this into my notes instead. Crazy's behavior just doesn't match up with his "suspicions".

The thing about afatchic is I'm not sure if he's just a poor town player or a scum. So, I'm debating between Tajo/afatchic and Tajo/Crazy. I really don't think afatchic and Crazy are scum together.

So, I guess it's out on the table now. Really need to hear from Tajo (or whoever replaces him if we lost him).

[Crazy]

Crazy is reaching a bit with his arguments on you

You don't find it scummy if someone votes someone based completely on the relations of someone else with that person? Artem has claimed that wasn't his only reasoning, but you can see how my mind saw that, right?

I really want to hear from tajo at this point.

Second that... I don't want to lynch anybody without Tajo checking in again. Now if you check his posts, he hasn't posted on site for 2 days, yet between his last post here and him disappearing... he had 20 posts elsewhere on site.

So essentially it's a combination of lurking and V/LA.

[Artem]

...and since there's no night phase, I might as well say that I'm getting a town read on you, Juls.

[Crazy]

...but I wasn't sure if I wanted Crazy to know that I suspect him before Tajo posted (because if Tajo and Crazy are both scum, Crazy is parking an L-1 non-justified vote on his partner, which is a dangerous thing to do, so Tajo's reactions would have been good to see). So I saved this into my notes instead. Crazy's behavior just doesn't match up with his "suspicions".

Despite me not moving my vote around... I'm sure that I've been 100% clear with my suspicions. If I understand right, the only reason that scum don't like to vote is so they don't have to take a stand, but when it's clear where I stand, I don't see how that's scummy on my part

Also, I really doubt anybody is going to hammer Tajo right now:

-Juls has just stated that she wants to wait until Tajo checks in before a hammer.
-Afatchic thinks that Tajo is the most pro-town person around.

[Artem]

But it's not clear, that's the problem. Take this, for example:

Casting suspicion is sorta the point of the game. By "notable" I mean it's somewhat suspicious, but not enough for a vote, okay?

Has that changed? With every post that you make against me, I have no perception of how suspicious you are. You go back and forth between poking at me and saying that you understand my view.

If you are town, I can tell that you suspect me and afatchic as the scum-pair, because of my vote/unvote and a case on him but vote on somebody else. I can see why a townie would find that scummy. The problem is that you take a little stab at afatchic and then zero in on me. Shouldn't a townie be pressuring both suspects? Heck, shouldn't a townie be pressuring everybody to an extent?

What you are doing would be considered a town-tell in a normal game on Day 1: pick a scummy person and keep pressuring them until they cardflip. I even play like that as town. But in vengeful, it just doesn't fly because it's closer to an end-game scenario of a normal game. In that sense, I think you're making a scum slip by trying to appear townie like you would in a normal game.

[Crazy]

Okay, let me get it straight then.

I am suspicious of you and afatchic. The only reason I'm not pressuring afatchic right now is because currently

he's not posting!

When he comes back, I'll pressure him. He

is

my top suspect.

I've made two cases against you, and I never retracted either of them. If you voted Tajo because he was lurking and

only

because of that, that's fine... but you could easily be lying about that.

My earlier case was when you retracted your vote on afatchic. This made absolutely no sense to me, because afatchic had never posted any new information in the time he defended himself. Same opinion before; same opinion after, so

your

opinion of him shouldn't have changed.

Now this is the first time I really put those two together like that, but it's excellent the way it worked out, because

both

of them point to a you-and-afatchic scum-team!

Now do I need to vote one of you to make that clear? Does it really matter?

[Juls]

You don't find it scummy if someone votes someone based completely on the relations of someone else with that person? Artem has claimed that wasn't his only reasoning, but you can see how my mind saw that, right?

I understand what you are saying but what I don't understand is this...

I am suspicious of you and afatchic. The only reason I'm not pressuring afatchic right now is because currently he's not posting! When he comes back, I'll pressure him. He is my top suspect.

if you are suspicious of Artem and afatchic why is your vote on tajo, putting him at L-1?

[Crazy]

if you are suspicious of Artem and afatchic why is your vote on tajo, putting him at L-1?

'Cuz I haven't bothered to change it. But my point is it's not scummy since it's quite obvious what my opinions are anyway.

[Crazy]

Ugh, sorry, I think I was just holding my vote on Tajo to prove a point here. I will maintain that it's not scummy for the reasons I mentioned, but there really is no point in me keeping it there, as town or scum...

Unvote, Vote afatchic

(L-1)

If Tajo or Artem hammers, then they're obvscum, so I don't have a problem with that.

[afatchic]

Ugh, sorry, I think I was just holding my vote on Tajo to prove a point here. I will maintain that it's not scummy for the reasons I mentioned, but there really is no point in me keeping it there, as town or scum...

Unvote, Vote afatchic

(L-1)

If Tajo or Artem hammers, then they're obvscum, so I don't have a problem with that.

Any sort of a case against me?

Also the whole baffling about how me/artem are a scum team, yet putting/leaving 'tajo at L-1 pretty much confirms my vote on you.

[Crazy]

Ugh, sorry, I think I was just holding my vote on Tajo to prove a point here. I will maintain that it's not scummy for the reasons I mentioned, but there really is no point in me keeping it there, as town or scum...

Unvote, Vote afatchic

(L-1)

If Tajo or Artem hammers, then they're obvscum, so I don't have a problem with that.

Any sort of a case against me?

Also the whole baffling about how me/artem are a scum team, yet putting/leaving 'tajo at L-1 pretty much confirms my vote on you.

1. You accuse me of not using my vote, yet you're the one that's always feeling paranoid when someone's at L-1. Tajo wasn't going to be quick-hammered, obviously, which is why I didn't care about my vote on him. I still don't see how that's scummy.

2. Your pro-town view on Tajo is so far-fetched that I think it's either scum buddying up to his partner, or to a townie, especially since Tajo is currently in last place in terms of "scum-hunting."

3. You said you'd vig Juls if you died in Post 84. That was completely unfounded OMGUS. When asked, you said part of it was just a grudge from a

past game

?

[populartajo]

I just got back from an unexpected trip. Dont do anything crazy until I come back. Later.

[afatchic]

Okay so lets all pretend i get hammered, and i'm a vig. who would you want me to vig?

[Juls]

Who is that directed at afatchic?

[afatchic]

Who is that directed at afatchic?

everyone.

[Juls]

Tajo or Crazy is who I would say right now but I can't be sure. I don't think this is the type of game where you or anyone should be speed lynched. If someone hammers before the proper amount of discussion has been had then they should be vigged. I just don't get why if you are town you have resigned yourself to vigging someone instead of convincing us you are town or at the very least convincing us someone else is scum. I have 3 suspects and I know I am wrong about one of them at least because there are only two mafia. So I am not comfortable lynching or calling a vig target at this point.