Talking in code...

[MMCL]

Just out of interest I was wondering how people see talking in code as a strategy in game.

I don't mean "XGGH BGHERFF HYSPOI SHS JJSU JL" but rather something like: <EDITED>

Here's another example: "I bet you'll go back initially now: definately everything seems understandable?" For a vigilante telling that his one-shot has been used.

What's the consensus/thoughts on this?


As I see it, it is revealing yourself to anyone who can crack the code - scum and town alike, but sometimes, I guess, it can be useful to ensure a town's victory...?

[mole]

I don't think it's that useful. Chances are the mafia is looking harder for hints like that than the town is, so if, say, you're trying to subtly claim cop to get someone lynched, don't try to do it in code. Half the townies won't work it out and some might think you're suspicious.

Or if you're about to be lynched, well, nobody likes to be given cryptic clues then.

IMO you should just state your role, or find a better way to do things that doesn't involve hints.

[Recky]

I might be a little biased here, but I think that particular bit of code can be very useful (if it's used properly) .

I think we should distinguish between someone roleclaiming in code and two or more people communicating to each other in code during the game. In the former case, I don't really see much of a problem with it. Many people bemoan the fact that the first day is all about bandwagoning to a roleclaim, and it is sometimes better to leave broad hints and clues as to what's going on rather than just blurting everything out. If you're about to be lynched and it doesn't work, then you can always come out and say it openly later on.

However, when two or more people who are not supposed to communicate with one another talk in code, that is to my mind another matter entirely. That's going against the spirit, if not the precise letter, of the game. Masons are usually put into the game to perform this function, and it damages the balance if others try the same thing. It can also lead to a certain degree of resentment and a "them and us" attitude from those who are not "in the loop", as it were. This will end up having a counter-productive effect, as there's the danger that those who are not in on the code will gang up against those who are and inadvertantly do the scum's job for them.

[Primoris]

I must admit that I rarely look for code-talking (*reminds self to do so*), I usually try to find out the role by looking at responses or the lack thereof. Having said that, there's also the point that, while all people here do speak English well enough to play a succesful game of mafia, possibly not everyone would understand codes when you use words in an uncommon way.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Codes to leave a message: fine (example: I left a coded message who the last mason was in London Mafia)
Codes to talk to one another during the day: bad.
IMHO of course.

[J-Hacks]

Someone on a site i go to frequently suggested this too. He said why not use some other method of speaking during the game to talk back and forth but i think it will give something away.

I think it's best to let everyone figure it out on their own. Makes for better gaming and sometimes surprised endings. Everyone can have things make sense to them when they see who was what and be like "ohhh, now i see. I can't believe i missed that!"

Or something to that extent.

[rite]

Codes to leave a message: fine (example: I left a coded message who the last mason was in London Mafia)
Codes to talk to one another during the day: bad.
IMHO of course.

I concur. The rules state no communicating during the day, yet they say nothing regarding messages....

Of course, it's all up to the mod. If I were mafia or mason, I'd probably want to clear it w/ the mod before going code crazy. If I even wanted to .

[MeMe]

Well, most mod rules say no communicating

outside the thread

during the day...code talking is definitely in-thread.

I agree with Recky, though -- it seems to go against the spirit of the game. Basically, I don't think that code talking is wrong, but I don't like it (but this could be because I suck at cracking codes. I don't even understand the one in the example MMCL gave).

[mole]

The mason example DP mentioned is the only one I'd consider useful.

Perhaps if you were mafia and you were about to be lynched and you wanted to give a signal to kill the fourth guy on your bandwagon because you think he's the cop... otherwise it can wait until night. Remember that the fewer/better encoded messages you use, the more likely it is that you'll survive to tell everyone what you mean in English.

[Norinel]

Hinting can work when you have reason to believe that the people you want to pick up on your hints are more likely to do so than the people who aren't. (See me in Day 1 of Fairytale)

Blatant cryptography is usually legal and can be useful (Masons arranging a one-time pad Night 1 and using it to communicate once they're outed), but it's annoying to the people who don't understand it.

I don't even understand the one in the example MMCL gave

I had to know that that was what was hidden before I found it, and even then I found the message before I figured out the description of how to find the message.

[Internet Stranger]

Of course the reverse is true. Anyone I find someone posting gibberish is going straight to the lynch pile.

Now if you can hide it in a sentence that still makes sense, go for it. Just remember that the mafia will most likely be able to see the message too.

[Quagmire]

I think code talking is somewhat useful.

Back in my very first game of mafia, I was a mason along with two other people. During each night, we thought of a new code system so there would be a way to prove each other innocent, yet the mafia couldn't get it. At all. It was so subtle that nobody else could get it. If the chance came up, yes. We would prove ourselves.

It can be useful as long as it's subtle enough.

[Caesar K]

Of course the reverse is true. Anyone I find someone posting gibberish is going straight to the lynch pile.

[sidenote]Somehow I don't think IS and Rocky would play well together [/sidenote]

I think it all depends on whom you're playing with...some get frustrated by it and so then maybe it's not a good idea to continue. If it affects people's enjoyment of the game negatively, that's bad. If everyone's a puzzler who likes the challenge of finding and decyphering messages, then it will add to the fun.

CK

[Recky]

[sidenote]Somehow I don't think IS and Rocky would play well together [/sidenote]

Or IS and Weave

But anyway...

[Mr_Gnome_It_All]

(but this could be because I suck at cracking codes. I don't even understand the one in the example MMCL gave)

Take the last four words and read the first letters backwards they spell U-S-E-D. Although, I'm not sure how you could decipher vigilante from it, unless he'd already claimed vig.

[Caesar K]

There's no way to get the actual role from the message.

As it was, actually, MMCL and Recky were a mason team who together were a 1 shot vig and the writer was a claimed 1 shot doc. Recky was dead, thus clearing MMCL (they had claimed together), and the 1 shot doc wanted to mislead the scum into thinking he was going to protect some person that night while still letting MMCL know not to depend on the protection.

It was complicated

CK

[Thoth]

In Xmas Mafia I tried to use a code as Mafia.

I was forced by the night action of another player to use the name of my character in my first post of the day and mention no other characters. Unfortunately I was a) scum and b) had feigned ignorance of the theme and now had to use a name which was not yet used in the game.

I then made my first post so that the first letter of each sentence spelt out my name (Pierre Andre) and used the name of the character I wanted to claim, but misspelled it, hoping to fulfill both requirements.

Unfortunately MeMe disallowed it and I got the penalty for not fulfilling my 'dare'. Of course after reading this thread I understand why 8) .

[Cubsfan4life]

I don't reallly like coding because everything the town sees Scum will also see. Also, it seems like there are cases when people claim something and then say "See I left a hint here" I don't get how that makes it anymore true, couldn't mafia leave hints to the role they plan to claim later in the game?

[PolarBoy]

Coded messages to people who you aren't already in communication with at night are probably a bad idea just about all the time. Everybody can see them, and therefore everybody can crack them. There has to be something that the person you're sending the message to knows to look for that nobody else would think of.

If you're already in communication with this person, that's easy, you just need to prearrange something. If you aren't in communication it get's a bit trickier. The "pig hints" from fairytale would be a good example. They didn't necesarily stick out in your face if you weren't looking for them(lot's of people misspell "bore", for instance), but there was no question what was meant if you were in the right frame of mind. Unfortunately it seems that the other pigs didn't think "pig" enough when they were reading the thread, because the clues went right past them.

As far as role-claiming, I don't think it's useful. A mafia can drop hints as well as anybody else. The only way it's useful is if you drop information that becomes public later. Unfortunately the mafia typically know those things too.

In don't think any of the arguments about how it affects the feel of the game hold any water. The fact is that most practical considerations about coded transmissions preclude any question of whether someone feels "left out". I for one never intend to put information out to the town in coded form and say "Figure this out, if you can, teehee." I just don't see how that could possibly further my cause as town or scum.

[jeep]

Codes are USUALLY bad for the town. Dropping hints can be useful, but you must make sure they are indecipherable until you point it out or you die. An example: In Intrigue, I made a comment about not wanting to sound like a father correcting his daughter to d8p. It came in useful when I later had to claim my role: 2 person mason with d8p (who was my daughter in the game). It breaks the indecipherable rule, though. I didn't know there was a group looking for the millionaire's daughter. They should have noticed that hint immediately. It is fairly obscure, since I have a daughter an dmost people know about her.

Cryptography is just plain silly. Unless you are going to use sophisticated techniques, they are trivial to "crack" and it will be no different than posting in plain text except it annoys people.

The other thing is: Do you want to let people know the things you are "coding"? Ex. you DON'T want the mafia to know you've used your kill as a vigilante, so why even bother coding it?

-JEEP

[Yoko Kurama]

I use codes sometimes so I can say things before saying it or to give mafia a disadvantage.



Ex1. In a newbie game I was cop and told everyone that the person killed was the one I investigated. But in the message I had certain typos that spelled out Im lyin. So later I confirmed more than one innocent and the game was easier to win.

Ex2. In Paced mafia someone mentioned the name of the mafia group which was IPUPM. Even though I too had read that I acted like I hadn't and asked if they had just picked random letters like OWTRPM. My role was sent to me as 1 word "townie". So before any one else could mention the one word role pm's I already had One Word Townie Role PM.

I like using codes but if they must be undecipherable and hidden in text until you feel like explaining.

[mathcam]

Aside from the possible ethical questions, I don't see how people can claim that cryptrgaphy is usually bad. If it's used correctly (i.e. indecipherably), it can be an incredible boon to the town. As has been mentioned before, any time a player has information that is dangerous to reveal immediately but certainly needs to revealed

eventually

is a good candidate for encryption. Say I'm a role-name investigator and I figure myself to be a huge target if I come out, and I have some questionable (though not certainly evil) characters in the game. I can transmit this information to any player whose role name is definitely innocent by using the character's role name as the decryption key, by posting the encrypted message in the thread. Now that player has the information and use his/her discretion whether or not to reveal even after I die, and even better, it is unknown which player has that information. Keeping in mind that all my arguments are "in theory only", I should also point out that if this were to be a technique of yours, you should also occasionally do it when you have no information at all. This is so that the fact that you are encrypting something does not automatically give away that you have an information-gathering role.

There is absoultely no doubt in my mind that cryptography can be a tremendous boon to the town in many different scenarios.

Cam

[jeep]

There is absoultely no doubt in my mind that cryptography can be a tremendous boon to the town in many different scenarios.

Only if the decryption is not trivial. And you need some way to pass the key to only the correct person. And that person needs to be technically sopisticated enough to decipher the code. And...

Yoko, what if in ex 1 you had been killed? What if you had been followed by a Lassie type role? Then THAT person would be certain you were scum until you revealed the code, now you have exposed another investigator. There are just too many cases where that is bad.

-JEEP

[Norinel]

There are still essentially unbreakable public key systems, right? You can basically make every game FullComm by having everyone post their encryption keys Day 1; everyone will know when a message is being sent, but you can compensate by not posting who you're sending to and putting random garbage in posts where you don't want to send anything.

[mathcam]

Only if the decryption is not trivial.

Agreed.

And you need some way to pass the key to only the correct person.

True, but often this is built in to the system. For example, in the role-investigator scenario, the investigator and the investigee already share a private key...the role name known to both players. There's no need in this scenario even for a key exchange. And like Norinel mentions, achieving a correct transfer is also quite easy (in theory).

And that person needs to be technically sopisticated enough to decipher the code.

Also true, but this basically reduces to being technically sophistacated enough to click on a hyperlink and paste in a large number.

There are still essentially unbreakable public key systems, right?

Yup, though the word "essentially" does require emphasis. First, any current cryptosystem (other than quantum cryptography) is susceptible to brute force given sufficient time and computing power. Second, no cryptosystem to date is proven to be unbreakable by some technique shorter than brute force. It's

possible

(though certainly unlikely) that RSA is easy to crack. But in short, "yes."

Cam