Mini 730 - Hard Nights in the City - OVER!

[Danchaofan]

ehhh I don't need the mod question.... I looked up the first post and forgot to delete =/

[geraintm]

Back after weekend
am not being replaced or dropping from the game

discussion always helps town. that is my stand.

lack of discussion, or allowing some people to not take part fully is what really hurts town.

And Juls, you haven't voted yet. Why?

Because nothing has compelled me to vote yet. I was thinking about throwing a joke vote out there but conversation got underway. I don't think don_johnson is scummy for self voting and I don't thing megatheory is scummy for making a huge deal out of it. I am watching and reading and when I get ready to place a vote I will do so.

Sounds like scum sitting in the background waiting for a convenient wagon... =P

really?
juls post seemed pretty sane to me, i didn't think it was worth such a strong calling out over it

Unvote

I like Danchaofan's reaction to the votes that came his way and he seems pretty townish so far.

this feels like buttering up to me

I have to agree. I'd really like to see where this goes.

Vote: Juls

well, as i fell juls had nothing to answer for, you jumping onto such a tiny wagon...well, i really don't like it

Ok, my posts last Friday with the whole "why the what?" thing

i knew exactly what he meant.
i actually deliberately put in such an obvious line into my post 15, the "you think it will hurt us that much? " just for shits and giggles really. i thought it was such an over the top attempt to appear clueless newbie town it was funny, it wasn't meant to generate a page of discussion about it. i didn't really get why he called it WIFOM, i was expecting him to just tell me off for trying to be so obviously town.

[Plum]

She uses phrases like "this post is long enough" when the majority of the post is just quotes, flattery, apologising for noncontribution before this point, or in one case just an agreement.

Ouch. I apologize if you didn't find my analysis of a whole 3 pages (where probably 2 were the don_johnson/megatheory arguement) to be long enough. My comment that "this post is long enough" was because it seemed long enough to me. I am not a big fan of writing books when I post. And it felt longer since I read for a good hour while making that post.

Accusation: The bulk of the post in question consisted of flattery, quotes, agreement, and apologies for lack of contribution.

Response: The analysis was long enough, seemed long enough to her, she doesn't like writing long posts, and it felt long to her because she spent a while on it.

Conclusion: The reply didn't answer the accusation. Let's just look at how accurate the accusation was . . .

Plum...excellent post...exactly what this game needed to get going.

It's so unspecific that I'm unhesitant in calling it flattery-ish

I have not contributed yet to scumhunting, I admit,

That would be an apology

but it is more to do with the fact that I find this theory debate extremely ridiculous and want no part of it. I am going to do a thorough reading right now and summarize my thoughts below:

So here are my thoughts/comments/questions/etc/ thus far:

why the what?
i was just asking if he realyl thought me not posting 2 days a week would be that bad?

I find it a bit hard to believe that someone who has played mafia for 3 years has never heard of WIFOM. Perhaps trying to come off as too innocent. Probably a bit of meta is in order here to see his level understanding of the game.

There's nothing like completely skipping the RVS and getting right into the game!

I was just surprised that things got hot and heated so quickly. I'm used to things starting slowly with a little bit of fun random voting. But I see that the methods shown by this group thus far has done a fine job of stimulating discussion therefore - no problem here!

Everything in this post is WIFOM - The use of 'us' is WIFOM, the 'or would they' is WIFOM, etc. But I see you are joking....or are you!

Come on, it is an unofficial phase....I'll answer. Not really. It would put him at two votes. And you would need some sort of explanation as you and mega haven't really interacted at all just yet.

And FYI -

Vote: canadianbovine

BLAME CANADA!!!!

I would just say that talk is most of the time a benefit to the town. But scum can be opportunistic and add to the suspicion of innocent townies, which can stem from too much discussion or fingerpointing from an uneducated town.

Also I would agree that voting is the backbone of the game - how people react to a vote or building wagon on them can be the greatest tell as to what they are.

Bunch of quotes here

These are all the posts by insanepenguin. Fairly active with zero substance. I really get a bad vibe about him for some reason. I may have not contributed much until this point but I believe this post is a big contribution. Let's see what you have to contribute penguin?

FoS: insanepenguin02

Don and Mega have started going at each other very quickly, perhaps suspiciously so?

I agree with this. I could totally see this as a forced arguement. Each have made indications they would like it to end but it endures.

That's the straight agreement

I am not going to quote all their posts because this post is long enough.

FoS: don_johnson, Megatheory

So...I have three suspects at this point but I want to know insanepenguins' thoughts the most so...

Vote: insanepenguin02

Legit attack by Nameless on Juls which Juls responded to with sarcasm and general lack of denial of any of the accusation (I didn't find it a thorough analysis of the last three pages before it, at any rate), combined with hypocritical attack on Penguin. Not great. I realized, writing this, that I didn't put forth too much new info and decided to take a brief look at Juls' posts in isolation to see if I found anything new.

I don't think don_johnson is scummy for self voting and I dont thing megatheory is scummy for making a huge deal out of it.

Don and Mega have started going at each other very quickly, perhaps suspiciously so?

I agree with this. I could totally see this as a forced arguement. Each have made indications they would like it to end but it endures. I am not going to quote all their posts because this post is long enough.

FoS: don_johnson, Megatheory

So...I have three suspects at this point but I want to know insanepenguins' thoughts the most so...

Vote: insanepenguin02

Major stance change without much explanation other than 'oh, I can see Nameless' point here'.

HOS: Juls

Now this makes me want to do a Mega reread; don't have time now, but hopefully later tonight.

Plum in the same post your FOS on Megatheory turned into a Vote, what sparked this?

After all that analysis and having found multiple players looking at least moderately scummy, I didn't think a vote would be at all out of place, and would, in fact, be a good idea on my part. I FOSed Mega in the course of my stream-of-conciousness post and having concluded said post, found him the scummiest overall and thought my vote would be a good place. You'll notice that I didn't preview my post and edit it afterwards (note the lovely broken quote tags etc.); I suppose if I'd done that I might have removed to FOS and just voted Mega at the end. Just didn't happen that way, though.

[Nameless]

Sounds like scum sitting in the background waiting for a convenient wagon... =P

really?
juls post seemed pretty sane to me, i didn't think it was worth such a strong calling out over it

This is the second time somebody has taken that statement seriously (or am I just imagining the "=P"?) and

that

starts to worry me.

i actually deliberately put in such an obvious line into my post 15, the "you think it will hurt us that much? " just for shits and giggles really. i thought it was such an over the top attempt to appear clueless newbie town it was funny, it wasn't meant to generate a page of discussion about it.

This is a very poor retroactive excuse for something that IMHO shouldn't need one.

FoS: Geraintm

[don_johnson]

still waiting on insanepenguin to answer why he wrote this:

I don't think that you are as scummy as somebody like don.

but did this:

All in all, I want to say: Vote: megatheory.

unvote, vote:insanepenguin02

i understand rl delays, but your initial answer did not suffice and i don't feel that this should just be swept under the rug. it is suggestive that ip knows my alignment. only scum know alignments of other players.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: just to be clear, i am saying that ip may know that i am town. he may also know that mega is town as well but by placing his vote on a growing bandwagon he has a better chance to avoid accountability. i.e. if mega is lynched he can point to others on the wagon, with me he would be the first real player making the case against me and therefore bear more of the responsibility if i am lynched. it just doesn't sit well with me for someone to vote for who they think is the third scummiest player in the game.

[Plum]

i actually deliberately put in such an obvious line into my post 15, the "you think it will hurt us that much? " just for shits and giggles really. i thought it was such an over the top attempt to appear clueless newbie town it was funny, it wasn't meant to generate a page of discussion about it.

This is a very poor retroactive excuse for something that IMHO shouldn't need one.

FoS: Geraintm

After the whole deal and multiple misunderstandings about the whole situation, I don't really have a problem with this at all and certainly don't think it warrants a FOS.

still waiting on insanepenguin to answer why he wrote this:

I don't think that you are as scummy as somebody like don.

but did this:

All in all, I want to say: Vote: megatheory.

unvote, vote:insanepenguin02

i understand rl delays, but your initial answer did not suffice and i don't feel that this should just be swept under the rug. it is suggestive that ip knows my alignment. only scum know alignments of other players.

I see it being scummy, but I don't see too much indication that he knows your alignment - unless you're scumbuddies with him. Or he knows you're town but is deliberately voting his scumbuddy instead (in such fashion that he's becoming suspected, no less) because he knows you're town.

Scummy yes. Strong case of very scummy alignment-knowledge? Nope.

On Preview: O . . . kay. In my opinion, actually joining a bandwagon on a Townie comes with its own set of difficulties for scum. But I see where you're coming from there now and it makes general sense. You're really saying it's less about knowing your alignment and more about joining a more advantageous Townie bandwagon, yeah?

[Atronach]

juls: i believe it is a well earned fos and would be happy to say that if one of us flips scum, town should

definitely

lynch the other before lylo(if the situation arises). i do understand the inherent risk of the self vote and am more than happy to live(or die) with the consequences. wifomic? yes. but only until my death.

more than one player has speculated at the megatheory/don_johnson scum pairing. if mega were lynched and flipped scum this would cast enough doubt as to my alignment that i feel it could be devastatingly bad for town in a lylo situation. the other scum would have a premade case to get me lynched thereby costing town the game. this would work vice versa. i never said that one of us is definitely scum, and i never stated that lynching one of us would offer any clues as to the others alignment. i just don't want to hand scum an easy argument at lylo.

Posts like these strike me as extremely odd. Why in the world would you be talking about a lynch or lose situation this early in the game? This line of thinking reeks of desperation. A lylo situation is not even a remote possibility at this point so why the "warning"/attempt at contingency plans?

FoS: don_johnson

[canadianbovine]

ebwop: just to be clear, i am saying that ip may know that i am town. he may also know that mega is town as well but by placing his vote on a growing bandwagon he has a better chance to avoid accountability. i.e. if mega is lynched he can point to others on the wagon, with me he would be the first real player making the case against me and therefore bear more of the responsibility if i am lynched. it just doesn't sit well with me for someone to vote for who they think is the third scummiest player in the game.

just a general add on: Aren't scum usually on the first bandwagon?

still waiting for IP's response to my answers....he really dug himself into a hole by asking everyone questions, and everyone answered, so now he needs to respond.

[insanepenguin02]

still waiting on insanepenguin to answer why he wrote this:

I don't think that you are as scummy as somebody like don.

but did this:

All in all, I want to say: Vote: megatheory.

unvote, vote:insanepenguin02

i understand rl delays, but your initial answer did not suffice and i don't feel that this should just be swept under the rug. it is suggestive that ip knows my alignment. only scum know alignments of other players.

Well in all actuality, I really wanted to get some reaction out of mega. As he has not responded much since, I have been left without the additional info (reaction) that I wanted. I do think that you, don, have been scummier than mega overall, HOWEVER I wanted to see some more specific reaction out of mega, thus the vote. If you want me to vote for you, I have absolutely no problem with that but for now, until I get more from mega, my vote stands.

[don_johnson]

Posts like these strike me as extremely odd. Why in the world would you be talking about a lynch or lose situation this early in the game? This line of thinking reeks of desperation. A lylo situation is not even a remote possibility at this point so why the "warning"/attempt at contingency plans?

desperation? are you implying that i am desperate? why would that be? i'm not getting this at all. we are on page 5 and nowhere near a lynch. my hypothetical "lylo" situation was just to show that i am aware of what i'm doing. also, lylo is a possibility in any game. it is not a warning, just a very sensible suggestion.

I see it being scummy, but I don't see too much indication that he knows your alignment - unless you're scumbuddies with him. Or he knows you're town but is deliberately voting his scumbuddy instead (in such fashion that he's becoming suspected, no less) because he knows you're town.

Scummy yes. Strong case of very scummy alignment-knowledge? Nope.

On Preview: O . . . kay. In my opinion, actually joining a bandwagon on a Townie comes with its own set of difficulties for scum. But I see where you're coming from there now and it makes general sense. You're really saying it's less about knowing your alignment and more about joining a more advantageous Townie bandwagon, yeah?

less about knowing alignments, yes. if he is scum then he knows alignments. it is peculiar voting which draws my attention. normally one would vote for the person most likely to be scum. but ip is voting for the player with the third place rating. why? it could lend itself to ip knowing i am town and jumping a bandwagon. it could lend itself to mega being ip's scumbuddy. it could lenditself to chaos being his scumbuddy(not voting, but scoring high so that if chaos is lynched later, he can point to his original post and say, "see i thought so."). it could lend itself to me being his scumbuddy for the same reasons. in any scenario i can think of to describie why he is voting the way he is, however, there is a clear parralel. that being that in every scenario, he is scum. so unless he can explain why he is voting that way i have no alternative but to begin campaigning for his lynch.

[don_johnson]

Well in all actuality, I really wanted to get some reaction out of mega. As he has not responded much since, I have been left without the additional info (reaction) that I wanted. I do think that you, don, have been scummier than mega overall, HOWEVER I wanted to see some more specific reaction out of mega, thus the vote. If you want me to vote for you, I have absolutely no problem with that but for now, until I get more from mega, my vote stands.

this is the easy answer. it still does not explain your scoring system. if you wanted to pressure mega, you would not have listed him as your third place scum candidate.

[insanepenguin02]

5) [there is no five question] i ask you, IP, why you took your vote off me who you said was a lurking scum, and put it on the bandwagon, on someone who you haven't conprehended as the most scummy in your previous post?

unvote, FOS insanepenguin

. Theres your FOS.

For one, thank you for your answers. As you said, it is a lot of work - well, I believe you called it "digging myself a hole" which I don't agree with - to post some analysis, ask everyone some relevant questions to get some general info from everyone (or reactions) and then listen/respond to everyone's answers. Thanks for giving me time to answer yours.

I took my vote off of you because 1) it was started as a random vote with no meaning and 2) if you can tell in my analysis, I didn't weigh too heavily on the lurking aspect of people since we were only a few days into the game - I pointed out people that hadn't posted much but only told them to post more.

And I'm sorry but at this point in the game, I don't trust everyone in this game enough to tell my deepest analysis, therefore don't plan on posting that info.

[insanepenguin02]

Well in all actuality, I really wanted to get some reaction out of mega. As he has not responded much since, I have been left without the additional info (reaction) that I wanted. I do think that you, don, have been scummier than mega overall, HOWEVER I wanted to see some more specific reaction out of mega, thus the vote. If you want me to vote for you, I have absolutely no problem with that but for now, until I get more from mega, my vote stands.

this is the easy answer. it still does not explain your scoring system. if you wanted to pressure mega, you would not have listed him as your third place scum candidate.

No, apparently YOU would have but I did not.

[insanepenguin02]

less about knowing alignments, yes. if he is scum then he knows alignments. it is peculiar voting which draws my attention. normally one would vote for the person most likely to be scum. but ip is voting for the player with the third place rating. why? it could lend itself to ip knowing i am town and jumping a bandwagon. it could lend itself to mega being ip's scumbuddy. it could lenditself to chaos being his scumbuddy(not voting, but scoring high so that if chaos is lynched later, he can point to his original post and say, "see i thought so."). it could lend itself to me being his scumbuddy for the same reasons. in any scenario i can think of to describie why he is voting the way he is, however, there is a clear parralel. that being that in every scenario, he is scum. so unless he can explain why he is voting that way i have no alternative but to begin campaigning for his lynch.

I think that this post right here shows that nobody really knows anything at this point and are just trying to dig for info for their own and for the group's good. What if this, what if that? We don't know and that is why I asked so many questions and enjoy sparking discussion!

And if it apparently so clear to you that I am a certain role in the game, why would I make such a "peculiar" vote in your opinion? IMO that wouldn't be a very smart move for me to make. And see, I didn't vote for the one that I saw "most scummy" though am getting a pretty good reaction out of you. Why is that?

[Plum]

Partial disagreement with DonJ here. Votes are stronger pressure than otherwise expressed suspicion. Is there a huge difference between L-4 and L-3 at this stage? Not too much. To be frank, I don't see enough reason for Penguin not to go ahead and vote for you/ChaosOmega instead once Mega already had 2/3 (apparently his post was written while one vote was placed on Mega, if I recall) votes on him. There are scenarios where Penguin isn't scum, obviously, and just made a poor, scummy-looking desicion on where to put his vote in relation to the strengths of his suspicions, but it is, of course, more than worth noting at this point. Ramble ramble.

That said, I'm also keeping my vote on Mega until I see some reaction from him (barring unusual circumstances) despite, over the past day or two, suspicions of Juls and Penguin strengthening in my mind. They're still all about as likely to be scummy in my mind, especially this early-ish (yeah, fast deadlines) in the game.

I took my vote off of you because 1) it was started as a random vote with no meaning and 2) if you can tell in my analysis, I didn't weigh too heavily on the lurking aspect of people since we were only a few days into the game - I pointed out people that hadn't posted much but only told them to post more.

Removing your random vote, or at least its random element, was a good idea at that stage of the game. But with other players seeming to ping your scumdar so loudly . . .

1) First off, the self-vote which has been a good spark of discussion and has brought up the point about self-pointing (if it has one). It sure was ballsy to start off that way. I have to say that at first, I saw it as just something stupid and meaningless to get the game started for you, especially since you did unvote shortly after. But as time goes on, that feeling has changed....
2) THIS IS ALL THAT YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT!!!! WHY?!?!?!
3) If I had to take a stance on you right now, I would say that you and mega agreed at the start of this game to throw a pointless conversation out there right off the bat so that you two scum buddies could really spin the heads of the townies. If this is true, it will be very interesting to see how it progresses. If this is false, you have mega to blame (and yourself a little) for really putting a bull's eye on you, in my eyes.
4) Please post something about another aspect of this game soon or I we will have no other info to work off of to get a fair picture of who you are. If you are town, I would get out of the arguement ASAP. Especially since the door was opened for you to finish but you didn't.

FOS: don_johnson

- post something more!

I'm not even entirely certain why you have DonJ listed as so scummy. First thing's a nulltell, second thing is theoretically a scumtell (though not fully explained as such), third thing's scumbuddy speculation (and I've learned the hard way, as Nameless can attest , that open scumbuddy speculations before anyone has died and flipped are almost entirely useless to the town and easily mainpuated by the scum), fourth thing is again null and just a call for more contributions.

On the other hand, I may not quite follow your ranking basis well, and you seem to note only slightly more scumminess in Chaos, also ranked 3.

On the other hand, I'm trying to reread your ranking post, noticed that you gave Juls a 7, read the points you made, realized that I wasn't fully comfortable with them (though this may have to do with my growing suspicions of Juls).

All right, I'm losing my focus here and have to go study.

No, wait! Procrastination, continue!

And if it apparently so clear to you that I am a certain role in the game, why would I make such a "peculiar" vote in your opinion? IMO that wouldn't be a very smart move for me to make. And see, I didn't vote for the one that I saw "most scummy" though am getting a pretty good reaction out of you. Why is that?

First bit is unabashed WIFOM. WIFOM masquerading as an actual

argument

against your being scum because your vote seems to indicative of scum. Second question you pose is hardly understandable, but as your vote

isn't

the one we'd intuitively guess you'd make after your scumminess ranking post, I do see why it might have gotten a reaction out of anyone. It's weird enough to note and question, at any rate. Still, the thing that irks me most about that post is the utterly shameless WIFOM defese. Ho boy. Screw the Mega vote for now, sorry about what I might have said earlier in this post, but I've had a scummier vibe on Penguin all evening and this WIFOM defense is a strong enough scumtell by me that I'll

Unvote; Vote: Insanepenguin02

[Megatheory]

Just checking in really quick. I'm putting together a big post, but I have to eat soon so I don't know when I'll get it up.

[don_johnson]

I think that this post right here shows that nobody really knows anything at this point and are just trying to dig for info for their own and for the group's good. What if this, what if that? We don't know and that is why I asked so many questions and enjoy sparking discussion!

And if it apparently so clear to you that I am a certain role in the game, why would I make such a "peculiar" vote in your opinion? IMO that wouldn't be a very smart move for me to make. And see, I didn't vote for the one that I saw "most scummy" though am getting a pretty good reaction out of you. Why is that?

you are saying your vote on mega was a pressure vote. what kind of pressure were you hoping to apply by giving him such an obvious out? i.e. if you wanted to pressure him you could have made a much shorter post and jumped on the bandwagon to gauge his reaction. you, however, wrote a novella about every players scumminess or towniness. what kind of reaction did you expect other than, "huh? why are you not voting for who you think is most likely scummy?"

had you not said yourself that:

I don't think that you are as scummy as somebody like don.

you would have a case. had you not rated TWO players

more

scummy than mega, you might also have been able to get away with the "it was a pressure vote" excuse. you, however, bandwagoned. plain and simple. plum has already pointed out the wifom defense which is poor. even still, if you ask me that question i'd say that you just slipped up.

why are you getting a reaction out of me? oh, i don't know, maybe because i'm paying attention.

[Plum]

Something I should have remembered to say a while ago, in response to Penguin, as I've seen it pointed out in other games and is really basic common sense: Pressure votes are completely useless once you let on that they're pressure votes. Once you know that they're about reactions rather than getting a potential lynch happening, you (just saying you as the one being pressure voted, hypothetically) don't have to worry at all about it. If you get unexpectedly voted to L-1 by other players, the pressure vote is going to peel right off and you know it; it's nothing to worry about. Now that it's known to be a pressure vote, do you plan on moving your vote? Why did you pressure vote so clumsily anyway; whatever your alignment it was rather lass than smart.

[canadianbovine]

mod, we need a votecount.

[Megatheory]

I took this comment by danchaofan to be a joke based on the little smilie at the end:

Sounds like scum sitting in the background waiting for a convenient wagon... =P

So mega you think this is what I am actually doing? Like I said, I was going to throw out a joke vote but considering the conversation turned serious pretty quickly I thought a joke vote would be inappropriate. Considering I don't think either side's case is scummy I am not going to throw out a vote just to apease people. I would like to have a valid reason for my vote rather than vote just for the sake of voting.

I don't care if dan was serious or not. I am. Why is that relevant?

I didn't expect you to vote immediately. What I saw was two players (insanepenguin and yourself) who were posting but contributing very little. What set you apart was your "I'm waiting for something to happen" attitude, which came off as scum rationalizing their lack of contribution. Obviously, chaosomega and geraintm weren't contributing much either, but the two of you really stood out to me.

It's strange that you would finger insanepenguin for the same thing you were accused of. What sets you apart from him in the early game?

Unvote

I like Danchaofan's reaction to the votes that came his way and he seems pretty townish so far.

I think I'm at two votes? I think it's rash to judge someone's reactions based on two votes.

It can be enough sometimes. I voted you over something relatively small and I didn't see anything after that made you suspicious.

Am I to infer that its noobish to find the discussion you're having with don to be pointless and potentially distracting from the game? If so, then I'll accept the insult, because that is exactly my current 'thoughts on the game': too much time spent discussing self votes and how much discussion is too much discussion and not enough time spent actually looking for scum.

I wasn't trying to insult you at all. Evaluating players and guessing their alignment based on your evaluation is part of scumhunting. I saw your title (townsperson) and what you initially posted (voting Plum for not posting since confirmation) and thought you might be new. I saw what you posted later and got the contribution I asked for. Why is this insulting?

Because you've already admitted that you dont find don supicious. So why are you devoting an ungodly time responding to every single stubborn thing he's said?

I was trying to investigate his possible motives for self voting. I could have gone about it the wrong way and/or taken it too far, but there is some odd logic in his arguments about it. ATM I think he is probably town, though he did give me little scum vibes here and there.

I'm going to go ahead and agree with everything Chaos said in his last post. Also @ Mega, the alternative to you just being generally verbose is that you were being deliberately verbose and overly argumentative towards Don over comparatively minor issue; this appears scummy.

Does this set me apart from don? He was arguing over comparatively minor issues as well.

1) You voted for danchao for one reason (voting for somebody based on their thoughts on a possible lurking player) and later unvoted for another reason (danchao's reaction to votes). I have a couple questions here: IF that is the reason you voted for him, what do you still think of the issue, both about geraint being MIA and about danchao's initial vote on him? And then also, what impressed you so much about danchao's "reaction to the votes" on him that caused you to unvote?

His vote for geraintm seemed like scum attempting to skewer a town player over a very minor tell. His later posts didn't give me anything else to make me think he was scum.

2) Why are you SO intent on having don_johnson see the concept of self-voting your way? I would assume that you have already read what I have to say about don_johnson so you should know that I am eyeing the two of you as being possible scum buddies with a plan to spin the townies' heads with a pointless arguement. So why so much between the two of you????

At first I thought he didn't know what he was doing. Later on, his arguments didn't make sense to me, so I tried to see if I could find out why he was so certain and why he was arguing so strongly.

3) What I find really interesting here is that you were also then quick to say that you were NOT pushing, voting, etc. for don_johnson. Why, you don't want your scum buddy to get votes on him? (That was mean, I'm sorry )

a) I was making no attempt to get him lynched. I was investigating his possible motive for self voting.

b) Why are you trying so hard to be inoffensive?

Why are you implying that I'm scum? Do you find me suspicious? If so, why?

Why would you want to bring this up? So that you can get another's opinion and make yourself less scummy? Interesting....

If I can't question people in this manner, I'm really at a loss as to how I'm supposed to defend myself let alone find scum. It is perfectly natural to question don about where he is in the argument and what he is getting out of it. There is no good reason to find this suspicious and it makes me think that you are scum trying to take advantage of the situation.

Overall, I can't look at penguin's post and find where he is getting his rankings from.

2) why do you feel that mega suggested that he and don_johnson are town? What was there specifically in mega's post that brought this to your attention and made you think to bring it up to everyone? What do you now think of them and their arguement?

The tenor of his "teaching" voice, to me, assumed that the scummy behavior was just bad play. It didn't seem to me that he was even considering the possibility that his "student" was town.

Penguin is asking a question about this post:

1. The last sentence in Megatheory's post says to me he's assuming/knows you're town, too.]

I am really confused about Porken's answer. First, Porkens says I was assuming that don's behavior was bad play (which is accurate, actually), then he says I wasn't even considering the possibility that don was town? That is totally, 100%, completely wrong. The self contradiction is more interesting, though.

you are willingly hopping onto a bandwagon with two players you find scummier than the person you are trying to lynch. you rate both chaosomega and me as scummier than megatheory(co:3,dj:3, mt:3.5). yet you vote for megatheory. please explain your rationale behind this vote.

This is a very good point.

one more thing to add on: Megatheory: You said you weren't pushing Don and you don't find him suspicious....so...why did you vote him and question him and rant about self voting?

This is answered above. Everyone keeps asking me the same question. Well, there are some who have jumped to conclusions already... (chaosomega comes to mind, there may be others)

Please inform me how some of my points and assumptions are bad/wrong.

It's hard to actually answer this since nearly everything you say is worded as a question you can easily deny implications of later (how convenient for you)

You did the same thing in post 34. Was that not conveinient for you as well?

Some of the votes have been poorly justified, and there has been little attention towards Don despite him being IMHO more at fault for the exchange. Also, it irks me.

Why is don more at fault?

I don't like geraintm's latest post at all. It seems like the kind of post an uncomfortable scum who didn't know what sides to pick or what to say would post. There is very little, if anything, actually there.

Unvote Vote: insanepenguin

IP's rating me at thrid scummiest but still throwing his vote on my bandwagon was certainly scummy, but my vote is coming from his odd reasons for finding me scummy, and I find his method of ranking people but asking them questions rather than providing more reasons for the rankings suspicious.

[Juls]

Major stance change without much explanation other than 'oh, I can see Nameless' point here'.

HOS: Juls

I did not think the two acts were solatarily scummy but Nameless presented a good arguement and I could see the suspiciousness of it.

It's funny that your suspicions of me began with this:

Nameless makes a good point about Juls as well.

We exchanged several posts between the two of us before nameless made his accusation. You never once mentioned my lack of substance in my post or that I seemed suspicious. It was only after nameless pointed something out that you jumped in. Seems pretty hypocritical IMO for you to attack me for recognizing another person's arguement when you did the same thing.

[SpyreX]

The Do Penguins have the mental capacity to become insane votecount:

Gerantim (1): Danchaofan
Don_johnson (1): Juls
Megathory (1): ChaosOmega
ChaosOmega (1): canadianbovine
Juls (1): Nameless

Insanepenguin02 (3): Plum, Megatheory, don_johnson

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

[Juls]

I don't care if dan was serious or not. I am. Why is that relevant?

I didn't expect you to vote immediately. What I saw was two players (insanepenguin and yourself) who were posting but contributing very little. What set you apart was your "I'm waiting for something to happen" attitude, which came off as scum rationalizing their lack of contribution. Obviously, chaosomega and geraintm weren't contributing much either, but the two of you really stood out to me

I was stating that I thought dan's comments were a joke and therefore I did not respond to them. That is the relevance in me mentioning his joking. I was commenting on the posts the best I could (stating my opinions on the theory discussion) but until the point I made my analysis of the first three pages post I really didn't have much to say in the way of scummy behavior.

[ChaosOmega]

Apologize for not posting, lost internet temporarily when I went back to college. Very late now, have to sleep, will be at work in under 6 hours, can hopefully reread then.