Open 512: See Nine Plus Plus (Game Ovah)

[Varsoon]

Well, seeing as no one wants to take me up on the JMO wagon and he's 'returned to the game', my vote is more useful elsewhere.

Vote: TunnelVision

Drawing a line in the sand.
Also, while Titus doesn't understand how I can play the way I do, it's way more endearing to keep her around. May be scum, but has a very straight-laced town way of approaching situations which, if town, is a strong thing to have. If scum, will backfire hilariously.
Besides, "No one should be as blase as Varsoon." is so good I wanna put it in my siggy.

[Varsoon]

Anyways:

@Titus: You're being bogged town way too much in making today a 1v1 issue. There's a lot more going on than that. Furthermore, you claimed that I'm trying to distance myself/punt away the Saki v Varsoon thing so I can get more mislynches/chaos, when the confirmed-town agrees that it's unhealthy for town to focus on the 1v1 issue. Every line you sink is a barb, attacking me from a different angle. You've proposed a million ways I could be scum/SK/anti-town. Put some of that effort into finding scum rather than decrying me, will ya?

@Tunnel: Doesn't seem like I can say anything to reason with you. I hope you realize how scum-motivated the wagon on me is, though. If you have any questions for me, ask them and stuff, I guess.

@Flench: Don't like your vote, it feels like you're hopping onto the wagon that's headed over the cliff just 'cus. Regardless, I don't know if that makes you scum, or just sheep.

@Everyone else: Can someone do a wagon analysis of my wagon? The fact it's at L-2 with so many opportunistic votes makes me think there's scum there. Could be wrong, though, and since I'm biased, someone else should check it out.

[Varsoon]

Tunnel please answer the plausibility regarding Cherry/Varsoon. I'll give my thoughts after I just have to verify you're not sheeping me.

I'm not sheeping. I feel like I'm reading something I wrote every time you post. It's friggin terrible. I'll probably never play a game of mafia with you again.... Unless I play it on the third or fourth level and you stay on level one or two. Then I could play my role and pretend to be a village idiot pretending to be scum pretending to be a power role. That might work... But you'd lynch me on D1 for defying logic.

When number 2 gets here, he'll probably say "Number 1 huh? Your mom is number 1. For the love of god, somebody NK Titus... I can't stand 2 bauss's. And Pasche is right, we should lynch a lurker."

I'll bet good money on the above.

-1-

<3

[Paschendale]

On Varsoon's wagon

In general, we should not rely on the 1v1 idea. We shouldn't bank on the odds of rolling whatever outcome. We should deduce the scum. Voting based on just an argument from probability is especially bad. Everyone who wants to lynch on that argument should not do so. It essentially makes the vote random and denies us a whole lot of information. We will begin day two without much to go on, regardless of Varsoon's alignment. If there are scum on the wagon, I would contend that they will invoke that argument.


Flench does this, but I otherwise think he's fairly towny. I want to hear more about other people or that read is likely to change.

TunnelVision does this as well, and tries to go to great lengths to defend this awful position. He also gets pissy and claims his argument is better than it is. And is a Hydra, which makes it even more complicated to read. Which head is the pissy one? And the "contradictions" are really nothing more than "Varsoon is kind of weird". They're lousy as an argument. TV is scummy scummy scum scum. And if he's not, the self-importance is going to make him a liability to town.

Jmo is also relying on the 1v1 scenario. PLEASE CAN WE DROP THIS SHITTY ARGUMENT? That said, he voted Varsoon long before the big long argument, and left his vote there. No re-evaluation and not even a little bit of analysis of anyone else. Scummy.

Dyslexicon is not pulling any punches, but needs to post more often and, surprise, analyze more people.

Titus is also relying on the 1v1 scenario. Please stop. I think Titus is town from her actions, but scummy from her conclusions. Leans more towards town for now.

Anyone whose primary argument for voting Varsoon is "they're probably not roleblockers so we'll lynch Varsoon" needs to move their vote. Especially if they're voting Varsoon because of a townread on Saki. Especially since there is a significant lack of justification offered for that townread.

Imagine if you succeed. Who the hell are we going to focus on tomorrow? Even if Varsoon flips scum, we'll know almost nothing.

[Saki]

On Varsoon's wagon

In general, we should not rely on the 1v1 idea. We shouldn't bank on the odds of rolling whatever outcome. We should deduce the scum. Voting based on just an argument from probability is especially bad. Everyone who wants to lynch on that argument should not do so. It essentially makes the vote random and denies us a whole lot of information. We will begin day two without much to go on, regardless of Varsoon's alignment. If there are scum on the wagon, I would contend that they will invoke that argument.


Flench does this, but I otherwise think he's fairly towny. I want to hear more about other people or that read is likely to change.

TunnelVision does this as well, and tries to go to great lengths to defend this awful position. He also gets pissy and claims his argument is better than it is. And is a Hydra, which makes it even more complicated to read. Which head is the pissy one? And the "contradictions" are really nothing more than "Varsoon is kind of weird". They're lousy as an argument. TV is scummy scummy scum scum. And if he's not, the self-importance is going to make him a liability to town.

(1)

Jmo is also relying on the 1v1 scenario. PLEASE CAN WE DROP THIS SHITTY ARGUMENT? That said, he voted Varsoon long before the big long argument, and left his vote there. No re-evaluation and not even a little bit of analysis of anyone else. Scummy.

(2)

Dyslexicon is not pulling any punches, but needs to post more often and, surprise, analyze more people.

Titus is also relying on the 1v1 scenario. Please stop. I think Titus is town from her actions, but scummy from her conclusions.

Leans more towards town for now.

(3)

Anyone whose primary argument for voting Varsoon is "they're probably not roleblockers so we'll lynch Varsoon" needs to move their vote. Especially if they're voting Varsoon because of a townread on Saki.

Especially since there is a significant lack of justification offered for that townread.

(4)

Imagine if you succeed. Who the hell are we going to focus on tomorrow?

Even if Varsoon flips scum, we'll know almost nothing.

(5)

1. His other head is not there.
2. Flench did the exact same thing to me but he gets to be off the hook for it 'cause analysis?
3. Her arguments aren't scummy? ...how?
4. Yer all over the place with your read on me and Varsoon, Pasche.
5. ....I post about buddying. Oriole does an ISO. Flench makes us a 'pair of fighters' list. And you think that a Varsoon lynch will provide no information?

really, pasche.

[Varsoon]

@Saki: The idea is that any scum on my wagon can use the excuse that they were just lynching based off of the low probability of us both being town.
Ergo, we don't get much info.
Also, you should realize that a lot of the good info surrounding me was produced because I asked for it or put myself in a position for other players to create content.

[Does Bo Know]

Votecount 1.36

[L-2] Varsoon - jmo16mla, Dyslexicon, Titus, TunnelVision, Flench
[L-4] TunnelVision - CherryDrPepper, Paschendale, Varsoon
[L-6] jmo16mla - StubbsKVM
[L-6] Titus - Saki
[L-6] Vote Me - oriole

Not Voting: Vote Me, Glass

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

Deadline is Friday, August 2nd, 2013 at 7:30 PM CST ((expired on 2013-08-02 19:30:00)).

---

StubbsKVM is V/LA until July 22nd.
I am working on a replacement for Vote Me. He hasn't opened the PM.

[TunnelVision]

Varsoon, Saki's post at Pasche points out several things that Pasche has overlooked/missed or ignored. Points that are kinda important.

Pasche said you were lying about your knowledge of the game setup. You said you weren't. What's your response to his accusation?

Also, you said earlier that I think people can't be friends. Not true. You saw my joke, that was a chummy move on my part (glad you liked it.) I'm just the kinda guy that likes to hang his friends when they are scum.

Do me a favor though... make a proper case against me, as I made against you? All these votes on me, and nobody has laid out a reasonable explanation. I'm scummy because I think Varsoons play is anti town and scummy? Cherry thought he caught a slip, but I explained his misunderstanding away (correct me if I'm wrong.)

[jmo16mla]

Jmo is also relying on the 1v1 scenario. PLEASE CAN WE DROP THIS SHITTY ARGUMENT? That said, he voted Varsoon long before the big long argument, and left his vote there. No re-evaluation and not even a little bit of analysis of anyone else. Scummy.

because hes scum? fuck off.

[Varsoon]

I'm not lying, I really didn't read the setup going into the game. I read it when Titus linked me it, though.

Well, TV, the fair and simple thing is that my case on you is largely OMGUS and rooted in seeing your jump onto my wagon out of lurking as an opportunity grabbing sort of effort. So, all in all, it's pretty weak outside of my own PoV. I'm hoping that by pushing your wagon, I can expose you as town/scum and get reactions out of a lot of other people in the game. I've milked the Saki vs Varsoon thing for about 20 pages, so I figured I'd shift gears and get as much content on the D1 table as possible.

You're a cooler guy than I give you credit, TV.

[TunnelVision]

I'm not lying, I really didn't read the setup going into the game. I read it when Titus linked me it, though.

Well, TV, the fair and simple thing is that my case on you is largely OMGUS and rooted in seeing your jump onto my wagon out of lurking as an opportunity grabbing sort of effort. So, all in all, it's pretty weak outside of my own PoV. I'm hoping that by pushing your wagon, I can expose you as town/scum and get reactions out of a lot of other people in the game. I've milked the Saki vs Varsoon thing for about 20 pages, so I figured I'd shift gears and get as much content on the D1 table as possible.

You're a cooler guy than I give you credit, TV.

Pasche, you hear that? Varsoon really didn't read the game setup. What do you make of that? He's saying you're wrong.

Varsoon, you forgot I jumped on you as soon as the game started. Then backed off because I thought you were a mason. Plus I have logic and reason on my side, a Titus mini-me, and another head. Go after somebody else?

Why don't you make a case against oriole? Look at him playing devils advocate about the case against you, almost defending you. If you're town, and he knows your town, can you see the scum play/motivation there? (For clarity I don't think Varsoon is town, nor do I think Oriole is scum. I'm giving Varsoon something productive to do.)

What about Titus implication that Cherry could be scummy? (again, I don't think Cherry is scummy.)

What about Titus being too town? Or reading my mind and posting my thoughts? Weird. Must be scummy. (I don't think she's scum)

Alright, enough silly stuff. I'm off for the night. Number 2 will be here tomorrow and hopefully with the boomstick.

-1-

[Titus]

@Paschendale, I think your rationalizing and being scared about lynching Varsoon. My argument is not and has never been, lynching Varsoon just because of the math.

1) Varsoon is the most scummy person here. Everyone on this train may have started with the assumption about the one percent, but everyone on the train appears to think Varsoon is scummy enough in his own right, but for JMO. JMO however, hasn't posted at all about the 1% argument. JMO's a lurker. He needs to post content.

2) Lynching Varsoon will yield plenty of information depending on what Varsoon flips. If Varsoon flips scum, we'll know that those attempting to derail the lynch have some additional likelihood of being scum. We'll have some analysis based of French's likely partners.

3) Someone's conclusions don't make them scummy. Either a premise makes them scummy or their logic makes them scummy. Just because the conclusion isn't one you agree with doesn't make it scummy.

4) If we succeed and Varsoon flips scum, I'd focus on the players who seemed to defend Judd the hardest, especially lurkers who didn't vote for Varsoon.

If Varsoon flips town, the logical thing to do is to focus on the lurkers who seemed to focus the hardest on Varsoon with no reason, such as JMO.

Either way, lynching Varsoon leaves us with a clear plan of action as well.

Of course, others will have their opinions as well but I'd not exactly clueless after this lynch.



Also, you've never highlighted why the argument is shitty. The argument is 100% true. If one of the players (Saki/Varsoon) the other has a 1% chance of being a roleblocker. It's meant to frame the issue and apply pressure to the two claimers. Letting them go makes NO apparent sense to me whatsoever. The night actions aren't even sent to everyone so I'm not seeing how we'll have more information for certain. Plus, if one of them is the Godfather/Serial Killer, some of the information gathered by waiting could be totally wrong. I don't get this at all Pasch.



@Tunnel - What posts were you asking me to read between you and Glass?

@Varsoon - That seems like a big load of discrediting by jumping on Tunnel. Again, your vote has shifted to the popular wagon of choice. When Pasch says lurker, you push JMO hard. When no one takes you up on JMO, you push Tunnel because there are people on it. In your opinion, it's a pretty weak case. At this point in the day, you probably shouldn't be putting up a case you see as pretty weak. You should be pretty strong in at least one person who is scum and stand by it. Pasch says those who are on Varsoon are being weak, but it should be pretty clear Varsoon is being weak. Whenever there's been a major train other than Varsoon he's been on or near it. Saki at opening, then I had a few votes, then JMO, then Tunnel. It's freaking ridiculous. His votes are almost certainly lynch anyone but me. I can't see any consistency here beyond that.


@Everyone - Please answer the following question. This question is designed to probe relationships between players and get more direct hold your feet to the fire information.

If you had to pick one person as scum, other than Varsoon, who would you pick and why? Why must include more than a gut feeling.

If you had to pick one person as town, other than Paschendale, who would you pick and why? Why must include more than a gut feeling.


I'll go first. Stubbs is my top target for scum other than Varsoon. Stubbs hasn't posted a lot of content and his vote hasn't changed in a week from jmo. JMO has some scummy elements to him but he probably knows that he's scum suspect number one if Varsoon flips town, so I can't see scumJMO keeping his vote there if Varsoon was town. I could see scumJMO bus in that manner but it's damn near suicidal for scumJMO to keep his vote on Varsoon if he's town at this point.

For the town position, I'd go with Dyslexicon. She's not making as many posts as we'd like but she's definitely adding plenty of insight into the conversation. Tunnel was a close second but I'm still paranoid because we agree so damn often. Oriole also would be a good choice here but something doesn't sit with me regarding his defense (if you can call it that) of Varsoon.

[Titus]

@Tunnel - DO NOT SUPPOSE I WILL ALWAYS AGREE WITH YOU. I AM NOT YOUR MINI ME! GOT IT!

Also, you asked me a question about interpreting a conversation you had with Glass. What bloody posts are you talking about?

[Varsoon]

Other than myself as scum? I'd pick TV or Titus or JMO. Titus is the most town of the batch. Explained why I don't like the others.

Other than Pasche as town? Saki. Already explained this as well.

Defending a scummy player =/= scum. You'll lose with that attitude.

[oriole]

^Getting to this.

[TunnelVision]

@Tunnel - DO NOT SUPPOSE I WILL ALWAYS AGREE WITH YOU. I AM NOT YOUR MINI ME! GOT IT!

Also, you asked me a question about interpreting a conversation you had with Glass. What bloody posts are you talking about?

Lol. Its a paranoia test and you're failing. If I point to specific posts, it'll be easy. You think like me.

Dude only has 29 posts. Read the ISO and see if anything jumps out at you.

[Varsoon]

Bloopdeboop,

So, why don't we consolidate votes and end the day soon?

[oriole]

Sure, why not...

Most likely to be town (non-Pasche division): Flench. Many of the things that people were attacking him over (supposed slip, wanting to get Pasche's approval) don't read like scum to me; the supposed slip was probably a mis-interpretation and that kind of paranoia about scum leading discussion actually seems more likely to come from town to me. I like the effort that he's shown putting into this game lately. Also, this exchange just says town to me...

Varsoon who is your top mafia pick atm?

Varsoon who is your top mafia pick atm?

He just asked that...

Edit: don't discuss other games.

Sorry I should just randomly vote people without talking to them, you are right, best way to play for sure.

Most likely to be scum (non-Varsoon division): Stubbs (Agreeing with Titus? ) He just doesn't have much content in his ISO . He's tunneled Varsoon and Jmo pretty much the entire day, also.

This read-list he got town-cred for? Look at these reads based off of whether people agree with his Saki read:

Town

Glass: Great scumhunting. Got a feeling Glass vs JMO is Town vs Scum.
Oriole: Points out points that go unnoticed by others. good scumhunting.
Paschendale: confirmed town

Leaning Town

Saki: Says things as they come to mind. Doesn't seem to mind getting a lot of suspicion for it. Although I don't agree with everything he says, I don't see much reasons to think of him as scum. There's definitely going to be scum on his wagon though.

Titus: Agrees on Saki townread. Not afraid to put himself out there and go against the current.
Dyslexicon: Agrees on Saki townread. Not much other content, but I like what I've seen.

Null

Varsoon: I don't know what to think of him. At first I thought he was town, but the later posts had me doubting it again. I can go back and forth on him all day.
Vote Me: No meaningful content.

Leaning Scum

CherryDrPepper: Severe tunnelling on Saki.

Hasn't posted a single read on anyone else since the reads list, which had a lot of Nulls and which was provided by Sakura, who admitted Saki being scum was based mostly on her partners Meta. I'd like to see a new one.
Flench: Some weird logic at times(X&Y understand, so I'm not explaining), the rest of his posts lack content or reads.
Tunnel Vision: Little content, but don't really like what I've seen

Scum

JMO: Dodging questions, weird accusations, Scum side of the Glass vs JMO discussion.



I saw discussion already, so I decided to fight my sleep and provide some reasoning.

[Varsoon]

Oreo, you are double-stuffed.
Also, I agree with Flench!Town, am skeptical of Stubbz, and I think Oriole is town too.

[oriole]

Actually, I just noticed Vote Me is being replaced. That's too bad, because I wanted to hear about the 360-in-3-posts he pulled off re:Varsoon early.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Stubbs

[CherryDrPepper]

@Paschendale, would you like me to put up my case on Varsoon with my lurker wall?

Why did you ask Paschendale this?

Because he's buddying the conf town

- DP

[Varsoon]

Damn, CherryDP, that's cold.
And probably true.

[CherryDrPepper]

Saki, why aren't you sure we are scum anymore?
For that matter, I have issuyes with you "Im fine with lynching him tomorrow", its like your willing to go with what opinion is popular, which is scummy.
Furthermore, why are you NOT voting for Tunnel when he is screaming scum? Oh wait, you have a Titus vote, thats good.

Titus, stop the math. The 99 percent thing seems like you just want a potential roleblocker lynched. Stop using information over analysis WE ARE NOT LYNCHING A CLAIMED ROLEBLOCKER TODAY. I love how you peg me and Varsoon as scum but completely wash your hands off it by asking "What do you think" istead of providing analysis of your own.

BTW jmo, you better fucking do something. Same goes to Stubbs, Dyslexion, Glass, and Vote Me's replacement. I find it hard to believe taht we have 4-5 inactive players and yet this thread has a 40 page day 1.

Oriole for 906 good post.

Either Titus or TV are good lynches for me. Go go go.

My scum pick, if I havent already stated it, is you and Tunnel.
My town pick is oriole. That refuting of the bad cases works for me. Im inclined to think people on Varsoon's wagon are opportunistic scum.

[Saki]

Scumpick Titus
please don't expect me to make more points against her than I already have

Townpick Varsoon.


@CherryDP
Not sure 'cause 1) I don't interpret walls that well, 2) I'm distracted by people deathtunneling me and Varsoon, 3) you aren't trying to lynch the claimed RBs.

I

had

you down as scummy. With most posts you're inching slowly towards town.


As for why I'm voting Titus but not trying to get her lynched. Currently, this discussion is great I do not want to ruin it by starting to deathtunnel Titus and going 3-4-5 pages with just me Titus and Varsoon again (though I find that more fun ). Also, I do wish to examine the lurkers. Hear what they have to say. Other than 'shut the fuck up Saki' ofc
aaaand
We still have eleven days.
Why rush a lynch

more time = more discussion = more content-filled posts = more stuff to read people for = more chance for us to win
Hurrying a lynch imo isn't town play especially with these lurkers.

The 'lynch X today or tomorrow' lingo was just me trying to get rid of repetition. 'I think X is scum' 'I have a scumread on Y' is getting too old.
If that bothers you, fine. I'll find some other way to say 'Z is scummy'.


To confirm my stance on lynching.
I want Titus strung up D1.
TunnelVision is almost there too but narrowly escaped.
Stubbs/JMO/Glass/Dyx/Vote Me's replacement yer next after Titus.
^
Subject to change over the eleven days we have left.

[Saki]

Damn, CherryDP, that's cold.
And probably true.

Titus ain't the first one to do it.
*cough* *cough*