Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)

[ckool5000]

Some reads from the first 6 pages:

ckool5000-scum

fallen angel-slight scum
Faraday-town
Hayker-town

Johnny Rotten

VP Baltar-town
Kublai Khan-town
MafiaMann-town
roflcopter-scum

Please say that that's only the first six pages.

10 pages now and those reads pretty much stand.

27 more to go. .

[Kmd4390]

speaking of lists of who i'm willing to lynch:
mastin
fallen angel
hayker
mafiamann

On Page 12, Rofl gives a list that looks more like easy targets than actual scum candidates. Hayker and MM look pretty townie up to this point.

[Kmd4390]

Point 3 about Rotten is very:

LOL!!!!!!!!!

[Kmd4390]

Some new reads throught Page 14:
Achilles-town
Zazie-town
Wicked-scum
Nam-town

Having a hard time reading Mastin and for once, Emp.

My suspicions on Ckool are reinforced with the terrible vote on Khan "after looking at everything". I'd have been equally confortable voting either Rofl/Ckool on Page 14.

[ckool5000]

Point 3 about Rotten is very:

LOL!!!!!!!!!

I don't get it.

[Kmd4390]

Page 16, Hayker/Ckool, WTF? Fallen Angel starts to look townier with a very legit attack. MM looks townier. Hayker, I still think is town, but don't like the advising of CKool, who just looks terrible on Page 16.

[Kmd4390]

Point 3 about Rotten is very:

LOL!!!!!!!!!

I don't get it.

It's Farfetch'd. She's saying point 3 is farfetched and using images to do it.

[VP Baltar]

I'm rather enjoying Kmd's play-by-play on reread. It's particularly funny because many of the points are pretty comparable to the switches between town-scum reads I went through.

[Kmd4390]

unvote, vote: hayker

ok... anything else

no. watch your step or it could be you.

Um, what? You give an unreasoned vote (I assume it was because Hayker, who you mentioned as someone you are willing to lynch, gave CKool advice on how to look townier, right?) and MM asks for reasons, so you threaten to vote him?

Whoa, whoa, whoa guys! Did I ever say I was going to stop scumhunting? Nope. This is the biggest case of strawman I've seen out of all my read-throughs of games. I only said I should probably stop saying things that'll make me want to foot in my mouth, which I was doing for quite a while there, and you guys turned it into me cracking under pressure (which I kinda was, I admit) and giving up scumhunting, which I am NOT doing.

I haven't seen any scumhunting since FA went after you. (Up to this post, not current time)

[SerialClergyman]

Ok, so you agree that his reasoning is bad. The fact is that you're really buzz killing any kind of pressure that was being put on him to make him explain his actions, SC. This is really the point of my vote and it's useless now because you're sidetracking it into my reasoning for voting MM and Mastin. The fact is (which I was forced to state thanks to your questioning) that I am still am going to vote MM for today's lynch. Pressure votes don't mean anything if you say they are there for pressure. So thanks for that.

Even if I accepted everything you write here as truth, and there's no reason to assume that, it still doesn't answer my question. The fundamental part of my point was why are you treating MM and Mastin so differently? You seemed to have no interest in voting other suspicious players or providing pressure votes a couple of days ago - I say again, what has changed?

[Kmd4390]

-=Vote Count #8=-

Johnny Rotten (6) - Kise, Mastin, Namttam, Wickedestjr, Hayker, reveillark

I think there is scum on this wagon assuming my town read on JR is correct.

The time comment was aimed at everybody that posts at 1-4 in the morning at their time.

I do this on nights that I'm not working. Is that a problem for you? XD

-------------------

Don't really like Lowell's catch-up post. Basically seems to mirror Rofl.

-------------------

Done going back and forth on Fallen Angel, I think. Pretty sure he's town.

Kise, you're starting to seem pretty scummy to me.

Reasons?

[VP Baltar]

Because people were quite enamored with Mastin when I came into this game. I felt that a lot of people were ignoring him because they weren't really reading his posts. It required more of a focused attack to get people to actually wise up. Furthermore, Mastin's playstyle (lengthy replies) required more from me to respond to, whether I liked it or not. Really, Mastin's claim is the only thing keeping me from voting him because he has indeed acted scummy.

Now, coming out of spending days focusing all of my attention on Mastin I need to reasses my best options. MM was most obviously where I would return first. Then Mufasa finally speaks and it reeks of scum, so I wanted to pressure him. You have effectively put an end to that, however.

Here's a question to you: do you honestly believe that every case a player pursues is done in the same way? How does taking different approaches to different players make me scummy?

[ckool5000]

Point 3 about Rotten is very:

LOL!!!!!!!!!

I don't get it.

It's Farfetch'd. She's saying point 3 is farfetched and using images to do it.

Oh! Now I get it!

[SerialClergyman]

Mastin's playstyle and people not reading his posts explains why your attacks were longer and involved more content. They don't explain why you didn't attack/vote other people and it doesn't explain why you didn't care about deadlines/people joining without reason. After the 4th or so attempt at answering the question

Having completely different ways of attacking different players can obviously be a scum tell. They indicate that you are treating two people who may be scum differently, which can indicate inside knowledge on one rather than the other or different intentions towards one rather than the other.

Add to that the cases were made literally right next to each other on D1 and that you've dropped your case against mafiamann twice now and you have textbook distancing.

[Kmd4390]

Rofl's drop in activity is concerning...

Couldn't agree more.

Are you a Lyncher by any chance?

*headscratch*

Also, voting Mastin is pro-town.

unvote, vote: mastin

a viable wagon on mastin was all i needed to come back to voting him

^LOL.

Btw VP, I'm having a hard time getting a read on Mastin at all. I'd prefer lynches on my suspects, especially Rofl and Ckool, but I'd lynch Mastin over some other popular choices like Khan and Hayker.

Let me look at your Mastin points and see what I get.

-He was fishing for flavor
-He is spamming the thread so you do not take time to read his posts
-He repeatedly asserts how pro-town he is and rather than defending he claims that most scumtells are null against him
-He has refused more than once to summarize any points against JR
-He has misrepped many many people in this thread
-He's OMGUSing anyone who disagrees with him

Fishing, I don't see.

Spamming, post style and null.

Asserts he is protown, valid point.

Summarize JR points, valid.

Misreps, valid, but may actually be a result of his poststyle, unfortunately.

OMGUSing, I'd have to check, but if true, valid.

Ok, I guess I see your case for the most part then.

On to Page 30. Almost there. Can't believe I'm doing all of this in one day.

[VP Baltar]

Having completely different ways of attacking different players can obviously be a scum tell.

Not really. Everyone approaches the game differently, and thus would require a different approach to catch scum. IMO, there aren't hard and fast rules for catching scum that would apply to every player on this site.

Also, your charge of me distancing from MM is ridiculous for two reasons: 1) We have had no flips and know no ones alignment. 2) I am the person who brought the only substantial case against MM and have never said I would not lynch him today. I very much would.

[VP Baltar]

On to Page 30. Almost there. Can't believe I'm doing all of this in one day.

You're seriously my hero. That or you're insane.

[Kmd4390]

Well at first, I was considering the same possibility that ckool was, that Khan would claim death miller when asked if he was a death miller or not, but then you pointed out that this was a large

normal

, and now I'm beginning to get a hunch that Khan is scum. I don't have any good evidence now, so I will not vote him, but I will pay more attention to him.

Miller is pretty normal. I included it in my Mini Normal that I modded.

Are you aware that scum don't typically contribute as much as town?

STRONGLY disagree with this generalization. It may be true for some players, but there are several players, including myself, who are the exact opposite and contribute MORE as scum than as town.

Proven scum. If you don't know why go read my logic in a previous post.

Proven? I had a town read on you early, but this is one of a few twitches I've had concerning you.

-------------------------

Page 32, Mastin is near a lynch I believe. Not a formal count, but I think it's L-2 or L-1. Not a bad choice if we lynch him. My top preferences probably won't be lynched, and like I said, Mastin is much scummier than Khan, Hayker, or VP who all had wagons on them for a while.

Oh, and I'm at L-2, by the way.

I am an Emerald Roleblocker. I blocked Kublai Khan Night Zero

, because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role in the pre-game. Best random choice I could think of.

I've breadcrumbed this throughout the whole day ("I'm a roleblocker. I blocked XX because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role"-->Dead giveaway.)

I SERIOUSLY suspect VP picked up on this after my two posts, and got afraid of it.

I'm thinking that we have four kills--

A vig, a serial killer, and two mafia factions. With one of their kills failing last night. Specifically, I think Khan submitted the kill, and when he failed, he panicked and claimed miller.

THAT is one of my main reasons for suspecting Khan, above all else.

Interesting. I believe you about being a RB. I believe you thinking there are four killing roles/factions. I believe you genuinely suspect Khan. I'm just trying to determine your alignment.

-----------------

Ok, everyone and their brother switches from Mastin to MM after he claims RB. One of the biggest WTF moments of this game.

I'd definitely prefer a Mastin lynch over MM. 3 more pages. Gonna rest my eyes for 5-10 minutes and I'll finish this read.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, I'm caught up now. I still think Rofl and Ckool are likely scum. I think Mastin is scum who is probably dead tonight. I think MM is probably town. My other reads that I posted earlier mostly have held up. Nam is slightly scummier than I though originally. Fallen Angel is townier than I thought originally. I think Wicked and Lowell are scum, but am less suspicious of them than I am of Rofl and Ckool. Hayker, VP, Kahn, and Zazie are obvtown.

Vote RoflCopter

[Kmd4390]

Also, anyone with less posts than me is lurking and needs to share opinions. XD

Oh, and I predict that in the future, this game will be used against me in a meta attack showing that I am capable of reading 38 pages in one RL day while also staying active in the rest of my games during that day. (Disclaimer: I didn't have to work today and wasn't feeling as lazy as I normally am)

[SerialClergyman]

Not really. Everyone approaches the game differently, and thus would require a different approach to catch scum. IMO, there aren't hard and fast rules for catching scum that would apply to every player on this site.

That's another non-answer because you aren't changing your style to effectively catch MM. Are you suggesting that your plan for catching MM out as scum is to accuse him and promptly unvote him twice today?

Also, your charge of me distancing from MM is ridiculous for two reasons: 1) We have had no flips and know no ones alignment. 2) I am the person who brought the only substantial case against MM and have never said I would not lynch him today. I very much would.

1) Hey - I'm voting him, not you. I still see him as scummier. I'm just noting things I find suspicious, especially when they take several replies to try to answer. But you were never concerned about people not having flipped when you questioned Mastin about buddying.
2) I go by action, not whether or not you've declared you would or wouldn't lynch him. For all the reasons I've given you, it looks like you don't want to lynch him.

[VP Baltar]

That's another non-answer because you aren't changing your style to effectively catch MM.

That is a mighty fine opinion you have there.

Are you suggesting that your plan for catching MM out as scum is to accuse him and promptly unvote him twice today?

No, that's not what I'm suggesting at all.

[qutoe]But you were never concerned about people not having flipped when you questioned Mastin about buddying. [/quote]
You mean when I said he was buddying up to likely town Zazie? That's not the same thing there, bud.

2) I go by action

Yes, and my action was to make the case and vote before anyone else had put any sort of real pressure on him. Your willingness to base your vote largely off my case and call me scummy at the same time continues to make me less and less comfortable with that lynch.

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry VP - I don't understand the first two points you made.

Everyone approaches the game differently, and thus would require a different approach to catch scum. IMO, there aren't hard and fast rules for catching scum that would apply to every player on this site.

In response to your argument that each player needs to be attacked differently, I make the point that your change in style hasn't been to effectively target MafiaMann (then speculate on what might have been the reason for it.)
You then say that 1) it's only my opinion that you haven't changed your style to attack MafiaMann but also
2) that you aren't suggesting that your changing actions were part of a plan to catch MafiaMann.

My question is this - if your justification for changing attacking styles is that you should adapt when attacking each person and attack them differently, can you show how your change in styles when attacking MafiaMann is a more effective way to attack him than your attack on Mastin?

Your point about buddying is a fair one, that's a distinction between buddying and distancing that I hadn't considered. It's possible to buddy scum->town but not possible to distance any other way than scum->scum.

Your willingness to base your vote largely off my case and call me scummy at the same time continues to make me less and less comfortable with that lynch.

Getting less confortable with the lynch? How surprising, given just last post you 'very much would' like to lynch him. It's not like you've found quick and easy reasons to get off his case twice already in the thread.

And as for my reasons, you'll find them already stated. Some are based on what you've written, some are not and either way - my problem is that you are making a strong case and not going through with it, which as we've just seen with Mastin is not like you, and you're a repeat offender when it comes to MM. I'm trying to hold you accountable to your own case.

MafiaMann on the other hand has looked scummy as anything over the recent Mastin wagon, to go with his earlier behaviour. Specifically, posts 715, 742-3, 819 and especially 800 recently, and earlier his false dialog with FA @ 256-265 and 390ish set off alarm bells for me. Finally, I found the following posts scummy, 273, 321, 357, 645.

You can find more elaboration on what I found scummy about these posts in my post @ 702, along with a fairly strong case presented by VP @ 643.

unvote Achilles, vote MafiaMann

[Hayker]

Yhid id me posting to prevent replacment. I haveread everything and feel best about a roflcoter lynch right now. Will post in the morning

[VP Baltar]

I was stating that that it was your opinion that my going after him was ineffective. I would disagree with this. I got him to L-3 in a matter of about a day. Second, I was saying what you implying I did by unvoting him was inaccurate. The fact is that people are very comfortable with a MM lynch THANKS TO MY CASE. I can return my vote there at will and he will likely be lynched. That wasn't necessarily going to be the case with Mastin. I'm not sure what you dont' understand about that.

can you show how your change in styles when attacking MafiaMann is a more effective way to attack him than your attack on Mastin?

The point of switching my vote wasn't about attacking MM. It was about putting necessary pressure on mufasa for acting very scummy. MM was (and still is) on the ropes. My attention wasn't needed there at the moment, so I wanted to follow up on Mufasa for a bit. When I feel like it, I can hunt multiple targets at the same time. As it stands, mufasa isn't likely to answer any questions now after I have gone around and around with you.

As far as getting less comfortable with the lynch, it happens anytime someone sits there and badgers me about it. I can understand you wanting to question me over the switch, but your persistence in this line of questioning is where the uneasiness comes from. You seem very eager to get an MM lynch, but if I recall correctly you had some other targets higher on your list before the whole Mastin thing. I think you might have mentioned it before, but why did Achillies go down on your list?

Also, I want to hear from Kmd why he thinks MM is town. I saw a lot of similarities in his reads on people in this game to mine, but this was a major difference.

@Hayker-looking forward to your post.