Open 558: Hope Plus 1 (GAME OVER!)

[ProHawk]

What do you think about Marcrell not saving anyone on night 3?
   - Do you think he would fake that, as mafia?

Why wouldn't he fake it as mafia? There is absolutely no way to prove one way or the other, and you don't have to explain why you did or didn't protect someone, it saves cross examination.

Also, I think the fact that the Kodama replaced so early in the game with a huge lack of activity is a huge scum-tell; and that's the thing that's bothering me the most about ProHawk.

How many times have you replaced out as scum and as town? I can't say why they lost interest in the game, but they flaked. I don't consider replacing out to be a scum-tell. In fact, I pushed so hard in one game that I was DEAD sure that this player who replaced out did so to drop suspicion on their slot that I vowed to lynch that slot with a vengeance. She was town.

I can't help you with Kodama, and I understand that the lack of content makes it nigh-impossible to get a read based on interactions because of a lack there-of. BUT I HAVE MORE POSTS THAN MARCRELL HAS MADE THIS WHOLE GAME. What else do you want expect me to do? I am trying to do the best I can with what was dropped into my lap.

Also, I was there during that whole time after you voted Shaded until to the point where I hammered, because I was planning to hammer. One thing that struck me as odd was; ProHawk took a long time to vote him despite saying he was ready to vote him.

I am ready to put Shaded at L-1, but we need our protection details please so he can't self-hammer.

VOTE: Shaded

I just don't like how there was a 55 minutes gap between these two posts when we gave him the protection details right after he posted.

What exactly do you think I was doing in between that time if I were scum? IIRC I went to watch an episode of Dexter and when I got back, I had the details so I voted.

[Marcrell]

Reads... ShadedMelee/Kodama seem to have well-reasoned posts. Liking what they're doing so far. Egg is more gut, I just like him. RandomMidget says he's worried about a quick lynch when we need seven to vote and the most someone has is two votes. Behavior seems odd. Stab, see previous post.

I believe this could explain some of Shaded's behavior. I town read both scum day 1. I retracted 1, but the thought had been there. He could have been setting up a mislynch, for if one of them got lynched, I would have probably opposed it, and could have been with them on issues. Or he could have been trying to buy a lylo vote. Previous attempts in other games have gone the same way(I don't think you're scum, You might be, You aren't, vote with me against this guy, game).

[Marcrell]

What do you think about Marcrell not saving anyone on night 3?
   - Do you think he would fake that, as mafia?

Why wouldn't he fake it as mafia? There is absolutely no way to prove one way or the other, and you don't have to explain why you did or didn't protect someone, it saves cross examination.

Also, I think the fact that the Kodama replaced so early in the game with a huge lack of activity is a huge scum-tell; and that's the thing that's bothering me the most about ProHawk.

How many times have you replaced out as scum and as town? I can't say why they lost interest in the game, but they flaked. I don't consider replacing out to be a scum-tell. In fact, I pushed so hard in one game that I was DEAD sure that this player who replaced out did so to drop suspicion on their slot that I vowed to lynch that slot with a vengeance. She was town.

I can't help you with Kodama, and I understand that the lack of content makes it nigh-impossible to get a read based on interactions because of a lack there-of. BUT I HAVE MORE POSTS THAN MARCRELL HAS MADE THIS WHOLE GAME. What else do you want expect me to do? I am trying to do the best I can with what was dropped into my lap.

Also, I was there during that whole time after you voted Shaded until to the point where I hammered, because I was planning to hammer. One thing that struck me as odd was; ProHawk took a long time to vote him despite saying he was ready to vote him.

I am ready to put Shaded at L-1, but we need our protection details please so he can't self-hammer.

VOTE: Shaded

I just don't like how there was a 55 minutes gap between these two posts when we gave him the protection details right after he posted.

What exactly do you think I was doing in between that time if I were scum? IIRC I went to watch an episode of Dexter and when I got back, I had the details so I voted.

1. It will drive scrutiny of the same kind. You can defend a decision, but you don't have much say when debating whether or not you did something they can't see.
2. It isn't that it's a specific tell, but it tends to happen to Kodama's previously active head. And now you're trying to use activity as a tell.
3. If you were scum? Hoping the winds might change and people would move on. But again, nobody can guarantee whether or not you were doing this or not, so while this is relevant, we can't say much on it.

[ProHawk]

1. It will drive scrutiny of the same kind. You can defend a decision, but you don't have much say when debating whether or not you did something they can't see.
2. It isn't that it's a specific tell, but it tends to happen to Kodama's previously active head. And now you're trying to use activity as a tell.
3. If you were scum? Hoping the winds might change and people would move on. But again, nobody can guarantee whether or not you were doing this or not, so while this is relevant, we can't say much on it.

The scrutiny then turns into a play-style scrutiny instead of an alignment based scrutiny. And now show me where the winds even had a hint of change that would have been indicative of me "waiting and hoping" for.... about an hour.

[Wickedestjr]

I will continue from where I left off tomorrow. I was halfway through Shaded's posts, need to finish that first. I have another question for ProHawk, but I'll ask it later.

Still leaning towards voting Marcrell.

[awestfie]

Sigh. I've really not had much time for this game, recently. I'll try my best to catch up today. I've to say that I'm leaning towards Marcrell being scum here as well.

[awestfie]

Sigh. I've really not had much time for this game, recently. I'll try my best to catch up today. I've to say that I'm leaning towards Marcrell being scum here as well.

I've not really*

Didn't mean to press submit.

Anyways, the thing that's bothering me the most about Marcrell is the fact that most of the interactions he had with Shaded (and the other way around) just seem overly artificial and I frankly don't see them as non-partner interactions. Shaded's read on him just felt unnatural and I don't think he'd out a read like that if Marcrell wasn't his partner because had Marcrell questioned it and looked into it; he could've easily seen Shaded was faking that read and that's something Marcrell didn't do.

If I had to break town a few things..

1. He stated that he saved no one on night 3 which; I doubt scum would do. I very likely think scum would just say they saved someone who didn't die. He also said he saved Ragnarok on the night that Ragnarok died; again, I really don't see scum stating that instead of just saying he saved someone else.

Town-tell

.

2. The interactions between him and Shaded at the end of day 2 just seemed overly artificial and Marcrell found it odd that Shaded town-read him randomly yet he didn't point it out until the next day despite there being 2 days left on that day. If you had a concern about his town-read on you, why wouldn't you question it before hammering?

Scum-tell

.

3. Lack of posting (I don't think this means all that much, but he has been here since the start and already ProHawk has more posts than him) and actually just a lack of outing reads; Marcrell never really outed many reads and when he did there never really was much reasoning behind them. It felt like most time he outed reads was because he was pressured into it and not because he actually wanted to do it. To me, this looks like someone who didn't want to scum-hunt at all.

Null leaning scum-tell

.

Continuation of 3: Marcrell said before that he was hesitant to post some things in the fear of being night killed and never I, as town, was hesitant to post anything. As town you'd be more than willing to out your opinion to the other people in the game as it helps them read you easier; even if you think your reads and/or thoughts are bad. I'm personally not hesitant to post anything as scum, but I could see why someone would be.

I understand that some people don't post all that much because they'd rather just say things when they feel like saying them; which is why I don't think it's a pure scum-tell. It really just boils down to how you play; I just felt like most of his reads were weak and that there was never really good reasoning behind them. Matter of fact, some of his town-reads were because those players had "good posts" but Marcrell never pointed us to those "good posts."

I'd love to continue up on this, but; I've to go now.

[Rob14]

Marcrell has been prodded.

[Marcrell]

I don't really have much to say here... I'd like to get this over with, but I'm worried we're going to lose when we do. It will probably be my fault if we lose. I really wish Kodama had been more active. But his inactivity might just win him the game.

[awestfie]

I don't really have much to say here... I'd like to get this over with, but I'm worried we're going to lose when we do. It will probably be my fault if we lose. I really wish Kodama had been more active. But his inactivity might just win him the game.

Why did you wait till day 3 to point out how you didn't like Shaded's town-read on you?

(Read:

End of Day 2

Marcrell I am pretty sure you are town, so can we persuade you for a tn vote if the deadline approaches? Egg, me, awe and Arma (no idea what boonskies is doing) have pretty solid scum reads for tn here.

I can hammer, if you so desire. I thought another day of attempted discussion was a good idea. How long until deadline?

We have two days left. I don't think our lurkers will return in the mean time. And nobody is putting forward new reads/ideas. I am perfectly content with tn lynch.
You may hammer anytime before the deadline, just make it sure we don't hit a no-lynch.

VOTE: tn5421 Hell, guess this was the inevitable conclusion of today. Tomorrow, I'll be very interested in what Boonskies does tomorrow, and if tn flips town, that will add whole new reads to the game.

Start of Day 3

awest, are you willing to vote Shaded?

MARCRELL, WHAT'S YOUR READ ON SHADED RIGHT NOW?

Mod: Given that we've had two slots replaced and I was on a long V/LA (and we make up half the player list), would it be possible for us to have a little extra time for today?

Leaning scum. He's done ok, but I don't like his case against you now, and this post:

Marcrell I am pretty sure you are town, so can we persuade you for a tn vote if the deadline approaches? Egg, me, awe and Arma (no idea what boonskies is doing) have pretty solid scum reads for tn here.

struck me as suspicious. I've seen scum do very similar things to people who seem inexperienced to then manipulate them to their side. Lost a lylo that way once(off-site).

Matter of fact, you didn't point it out until someone asked you what your read on Shaded was. Why is that?

[awestfie]

I don't care about Kodama's inactivity and replacement. It's lame and annoying but I'm not using it as a scum or town tell, at this point.

I just want you to finally answer some things, Marcrell; you've not voiced yourself all this much this entire game and you've been here for as long as I have.

[Rob14]

Prohawk has been prodded.

[ProHawk]

You were just waiting at the keyboard for that one

[ProHawk]

So yeah, any other questions?

[Wickedestjr]

2. Depends on the day. Up until his hammer, I don't recall much in the way of a smoking gun so I probably would have defended him as much as I could (this site has terrible bussing meta).

If you were scum, how would you have treated Shaded on day 5, after he had quickhammered?

[ProHawk]

I would have sold him to the wolves, there's no protecting that.

[Wickedestjr]

Ok. Last question for now;

ProHawk

- At the bottom of this post, you explained that you wouldn't have counterclaimed if you were scum - instead you would have bussed Shaded for town credit. Also, in this post you pointed out Marcrell's motivation for counter claiming if he's scum. I acknowledged Marcrell's motivation yesterday - awestfie and I town read each other so it would be easy for us to win if you were confirmed town, so Marcrell had to counterclaim. Why can't I use that same logic to determine that you had motivation as scum for counterclaiming? You said that you would have bussed Shaded for town cred, but surely Marcrell could have tried the same thing. And there's no guarantee that bussing would make us town read you (it wouldn't have convinced me).

[ProHawk]

I wouldn't have bussed for town-cred as much as bussed because that's where I would have voted regardless of alignment because there was little doubt that Shaded was scum.

The difference between Marcrell and I is that Marcrell was under scrutiny by you and Awest at the beginning of the day (some of which was before I revealed). I wasn't getting any heat before the claims which is why I could have easily just slid by without a claim-or-counter-claim. If I was in Marcrell's position, his play wasn't a bad play.

[Rob14]

Vote Count #6.1 (unchanged):

Marcrell:

ProHawk (1)

Prohawk:

Marcrell (1)

Not Voting:

Wickedestjr, awestfie

With 4 people alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2014-08-10 12:30:00)

[Rob14]

The site will be unavailable starting 2AM EDT on Saturday, August 9th, to address some issues we have been having lately. Downtime should be under an hour, but as with anything could extend beyond that.

[Wickedestjr]

Continuing from where I left off earlier. Shaded's interactions... there's actually only one more comment I have to make.

I'm fairly sure he thought Titus/Randomidget was his partner. It's been said, but hammer was bad, reasoning is bad, Shaded should probably die soon.

What part of my reasoning you found "bad"? It was quite a rational choice from my perspective.

So... Shaded, you quick-hammered for self-preservation?

I quick-hammered because town was about to half-lose the game by lynching me and lynching a popular scum read did not seem worse than that to me. I don't see how this looks as "self-preservation" to you. If i had been lynched, we would be in the same situation as now. If my gambit had not fail, we would be close to winning the game. That was not a bad choice.

Two similar criticisms of Shaded by the two players in question. But one response contains significantly more effort and consideration, the response to ProHawk. Seems like Shaded was more concerned with ProHawk's consideration. Possible town tell for ProHawk.

[Marcrell]

Now that you mention it, that was a specific case in which I held back talking on something due to doc paranoia. I thought that if tn was town, it was more likely a scum move of tn flipped town, but non-alignment indicative if tn flipped scum. I figured that waiting until the next day wouldn't be much harm. Don't know why I waited until later in the day to mention it.

[Wickedestjr]

If you were mafia, how would you have played differently?

Probably been more active.

I tend to check these things more when I'm in the hunted party. Probably stuck by my reads more,

finding better reasons

, instead of just running.

Please explain why you would be more active and why you would find better reasons.

Would have town-read Shaded more. I town-read him beginning of game, would probably have been more vocal with it and stuck with him for longer.

Wouldn't have hesitated as much when Shaded wanted me to vote him.

Oh? Shaded wanted you to vote him.

Is that what he told you in your scum quick topic?

SCUM SLIP!?!?!?! I was leaning towards voting Marcrell already, but unless he can come up with a good explanation for this, I'm almost certain.

[awestfie]

Hey, I'm only going to be here for like five to ten minutes, want me to throw a vote up or would you rather not have me do so? Even if you aren't sure about hammering now or later; it doesn't hurt for me to vote the person who you think is most likely to flip scum here since you can hammer whenever you feel.

Still leaning towards Marcrell being scum, for the record.

[Wickedestjr]

Are you willing to lynch Marcrell right now?