Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[MordyS]

Great. You still haven't explained why you didn't vote for Muffin. Don't worry. I'll wait.

[Gammagooey]

Okay, now that I have answers, here's what I've been thinking.
I'm pretty sure foilist isn't mafia. When he came under attack his first offense was on Muffin. If he's scum, why would he try to get the pressure off himself by putting it his own godfather, when attacking a random townie would do the same thing without risking a godfather lynch if people listen to you.

I pointed out that cruelty and peanut never spoke to each other yesterday. If they're both scum trying not to draw attention to each other, bussing at this point where everyone suspects both of them would be pretty much suicide. Neither of them wants the other lynched today. Hmmm.

Going back to Almaster- I still think that if he's a townie his play yesterday was absolutely terrible, but there's the tiniest chance that he's just what he said he was: a terrible, terrible doctor. His play today has been much better though, and I really don't think he would bus right now, so if cruelty comes up scum there are people I'd rather lynch before him. Side note: SpyreX was one of the only people still willing to vote him after his claim. WIFOM and all that, but it's still something to think about.

Peanutman's defense at the beginning of the day seemed a little scummy to me (trying to put suspicion on people because they're voting for him, not stating his own suspicions until some of the heat is off) and claiming that he had a big part in lynching Socio when he didn't even vote for him is glory hogging at best, and scum trying to get town cred at worst.

Cruelty didn't contribute much at all yesterday, didn't mention Muffin/Socio until very late in the game, and similar to peanutman is pushing on archae who I think just made a townie mistake (reasoning was a few posts back if you want it). In addition, he's still stating that foilist is scummy even though Socio's flip makes him just about as confirmed as a village idiot as he can get. He also has inconsistancies in his reasoning for being irritated at AGM and changing from not wanting to lynch AGM yesterday to wanting him lynched now.

I will vote for any of these three dudes. However, if cruelty is scum I think AGM looks a hell of a lot better given my bussing is suicide theory, making peanutman the last maf in my eyes (doesn't work the other way around:if peanut is scum, either Al or cruelty could be the last maf). I'm thinking cruelty gives us the most info from the lynch and has a high chance of lynching ze scum.

Vote:cruelty

[MordyS]

V/LA for Thanksgiving Weekend

[PhaerieM]

MordyS's posts just got a lot scummier

[Papa Zito]

MordyS's posts just got a lot scummier

?

Out of curiousity, AGM, who did you protect last night?

[AlmasterGM]

MordyS's posts just got a lot scummier

?

Out of curiousity, AGM, who did you protect last night?

You.

[foilist13]

Him? Why on earth did you protect him? Sure he technically started the wagon on Socio, but it was Phaerie who really pushed the lynch, so a retal kill would probably go to her. There were several strong town players yesterday to choose from, and Papa Zito, being a replacement, was much less confirmed town than some of the others.

Right now I find Almaster and cruelty (in light of Gammagooey's evidence) super scummy.

@Cruelty - Yesterday I found Peanut moderately scummy, but not nearly as much as you or Almaster (obviously my opinions shifted over time during the day, so please don't give me crap about contradictions from some point during the day. That being said, this opinion was fairly consistant in the second half of the day.) Early today I thought he was a likely scum buddy for socio and almaster (me still believing AGM to be scum), and I was generally willing to go along with MordyS and Sanjay. However, I still had stronger suspicions of other players, you being one, and wasn't willing to commit myself to a Peanut wagon. Then Phaerie posted her piece about peanut which made him look more townish to me, and further compounded my unwillingness to vote him.

I still hold pretty much the same opinion of peanut. He still seems fairly scummy, but there are things about him that seem townish. My biggest suspects, as I said before, are Almaster and Cruelty. I'm happy with lynching either of them, and I see what Gammagooey is sayiong about cruelty being the more informative lynch. Therefore

unvote, vote:Cruelty

As for Archaebob, I don't know what is going on, or why he isn't posting, but I think he is far too intelligent to simply try and lurk away a case on him, even bofore one really begins. Also, his leading the town and controlling discussion means he must have a high opinion of himself, or high aspirations for who he'd like to be, and I doubt that someone like that would stoop to the level of scum lurking and bear the loss of image that would accompany that.

Obviously there is a counter argument, that maybe he's so intelligent he knows we'll all think he's intelligent, etc. etc. etc., but I had a strong town read on him yesterday and am willing to cling to it based on his play, and what I know of him.

[Sanjay]

As far as my priorities go, my following post will be:

20% scumhunting
10% trying to paint myself as a hero for the Sociopath lynch
70% using an unnecessary metaphor that does not enhance understanding of my point

Enjoy...

[Sanjay]

C) If I hadn't made that post, PZ's vote wouldn't have changed Muffin/Socio's status as a "third party candidate", and no BW would've formed on him. I fail to see why, if scum, I would purposely draw attention to the Godfather when there is very little suspicion on him. I felt the town needed to stop tunneling two players and wait for the deadline, but rather be actively scumhunting. If I wanted to lynch Foilist, I wouldn't have brought up a possibility of a Muffin-lynch.

What is this?

Firstly, stop stealing my shine. Papa Zito is, of course, the superstar of the rejecting the "it's either AlmasterGM or folist13" idea, but if he's the Batman of the wagon, I'm the friggin' boy wonder. And not the campy Burt Ward boy wonder either. I'm Nightwing.

This is a picture of me, day 1, unvoting foilist13

While you were making silly posts about how you didn't really want to lynch foilist13 OR AlmasterGM and yet were for some reason still doing it (Post 751), I was rejecting that notion and helping keep Gotham City safe from criminals. BAM! POW! You asked for a prod on PhaerieM, yes. That gets you town points. But you are overstating the influence you had. Other people did the real work. All you did was throw up the Bat-Signal (PhaerieM is Batman in this metaphor too).

PhaerieM's would have almost certainly checked in at some point, and there is no way, given her previous posts, she would turn down a Sociopath lynch. I was quite keen on lynching someone besides foilist13 or AlmasterGM. SpyreX was down to lynch anybody, and MordyS certainly wasn't keen on a foilist13 lynch. Sociopath's lynch could have easily went down without you.

Secondly, you didn't purposely draw attention to the Godfather and you weren't the one who brought up a Sociopath lynch. AT ALL. Papa Zito did both of those. Am I missing where you did this to any extent that you would take credit for it?

Thirdly, and somewhat unrelatedly, why didn't you want to lynch cruelty day 1? Papa Zito would have certainly been down for that and I would have too. There's a whole host of players that probably would have been down with that. But it seems like you didn't really care about this option. You only iso-read Sociopath. What's up with that?

I'm starting to suspect a Sociopath-peanutman-cruelty love connection.

[Gammagooey]

I loled, and clearly Phaerie is batgirl using your metaphor. (Two batmans would just be SILLY)

[cruelty]

However, if cruelty is scum I think AGM looks a hell of a lot better given my bussing is suicide theory, making peanutman the last maf in my eyes (doesn't work the other way around:if peanut is scum, either Al or cruelty could be the last maf). I'm thinking cruelty gives us the most info from the lynch and has a high chance of lynching ze scum.

@town, what happens if I flip town? Specifically, what information can you gain from that?

The reason I ask is because there's a lot of speculation about the mountains of information you'll gain from lynching crueltyscum, but I'm not really seeing the positives of my possible town flip? I am concerned that you're all tunneled on an inevitable scum flip which is fine if you're right, but in the event you're wrong, what does town gain?

cruelty and peanut never spoke to each other yesterday.

I never really interacted with you or Mordy either. Not sure how valuable this is as evidence given that a big part of your case is my lack of contribution. This point seems contradictory.

He also has inconsistancies in his reasoning for being irritated at AGM and changing from not wanting to lynch AGM yesterday to wanting him lynched now.

How so?

I haven't changed my tune re: AGM at all. I'm not really sure what your issue here is anyway - you specifically say you find AGM scummy; I'm not allowed to? Prior to the Muffin lynch I thought that foilist was highly scummy + an informative lynch, I'm not as sure as I was about that (although I'd still support his lynch, I wouldn't be as eager to do so as I was yesterday) and instead believe that AGM (someone you also find scummy) would be the better lynch (of the two). How is that a problem?

re: archaebob, shrug. I don't want to get into a battle over his motivations/actions without him actually being present, otherwise it's nothing better than idle speculation.

I'd also question why you only mention me and peanut in your positives from a scum flip paragraph at the end of your post. Would we gain nothing from an AGM flip?

Incidentally re: foilist.

I was generally willing to go along with MordyS and Sanjay

I see what Gammagooey is sayiong about cruelty being the more informative lynch

Phaerie posted her piece about peanut which made him look more townish to me

Are you actually capable of thought? I really dislike your entire post, it seems like you're agreeing with these points and specifically noting them in case things turn sour. It's posts/quotes like these which really make me question you.

I'm not understanding your position on Foilist. Everything you've said in this post about Foilist leading up to the above comment was pointing out his scumminess. You said you thought he was pretty scummy on Day 1, but today he has been "interesting"... and you went on to point out the scummy things he's done today, so I'm not sure what has made you "not as convinced" as you were yesterday. You then go on to say that you'd be comfortable with his lynch even though you're not as convinced about him.

I don't really understand my position on him either. I think he does scummy things, I don't like that he spends a lot of time agreeing with people and I don't really like his play right throughout day 1, but the Muffin flip made me question just how likely he was to be scum. I'm not as convinced as I was, but I think there is easily enough doubt in my mind over his alignment to support a lynch.

[Gammagooey]

@town, what happens if I flip town? Specifically, what information can you gain from that?

If you flip town, I think AGM is scum. I'd rather be wrong about lynching you than a claimed doctor though.

cruelty and peanut never spoke to each other yesterday.

I never really interacted with you or Mordy either. Not sure how valuable this is as evidence given that a big part of your case is my lack of contribution. This point seems contradictory.

Yes, but we asked you questions even if you didn't ask us any. I didn't see peanut ever even mention you except in a quote by another player, and although I do think I missed a few mentions when I was looking through yours earlier (searched for peanutman instead of peanut the first time) the only time I see you directly state your opinion on him is this:

I should probably also note that I don't get a huge scum-vibe from peanut - I can see some of your points (not all), but I'm not positive that what you have is ironclad.

It's not that you didn't mention him much or vice versa, it's that neither of you brought up the other, which makes sense for scum trying to lay low.

He also has inconsistancies in his reasoning for being irritated at AGM and changing from not wanting to lynch AGM yesterday to wanting him lynched now.

How so?

I haven't changed my tune re: AGM at all. I'm not really sure what your issue here is anyway - you specifically say you find AGM scummy; I'm not allowed to? Prior to the Muffin lynch I thought that foilist was highly scummy + an informative lynch, I'm not as sure as I was about that (although I'd still support his lynch, I wouldn't be as eager to do so as I was yesterday) and instead believe that AGM (someone you also find scummy) would be the better lynch (of the two). How is that a problem?

I just don't see what exactly the logic is from
AGM=scummy but shouldn't be lynched to AGM=scummy and I want him lynched. For all I know you have a great explanation for this, but I don't see it yet. Admittedly, this is more of a lack of explanation thing than an inconsistency.

re: archaebob, shrug. I don't want to get into a battle over his motivations/actions without him actually being present, otherwise it's nothing better than idle speculation.

I'd also question why you only mention me and peanut in your positives from a scum flip paragraph at the end of your post. Would we gain nothing from an AGM flip?

Pretty much everyone said AGM was scummy in one way or another yesterday. I don't really see what info it would give us except for "AGM is <alignment>"

[Gammagooey]

So I probably shouldn't be posting at 6am anyway, but I reread your post and can see you hinting at why you want him lynched now as opposed to yesterday, but for clarification:

Prior to the Muffin lynch I thought that foilist was highly scummy + an informative lynch, I'm not as sure as I was about that (although I'd still support his lynch, I wouldn't be as eager to do so as I was yesterday) and instead believe that AGM (someone you also find scummy) would be the better lynch (of the two). How is that a problem?

Are you saying the reason that you thought he shouldn't be lynched yesterday is because you thought foilist was scummier at the time?

[cruelty]

I thought foilist and AGM were about as scummy as each other yesterday (this tended to fluctuate a little depending on their most recent posts, but as a general rule..), I would have preferred a foilist lynch because I thought that he was associated with other players whereas AGM is just a random pinball bouncing around. I didn't think his lynch would be that illuminating.

Now, I think AGM is scummier than foilist (not that I've completely relaxed my stance on foilist, but I can see why you'd think he's a VI) and if it came down to the two of them I'd prefer an AGM lynch.

[foilist13]

This is my one post for the day, it's Thanksgiving (not sure if you're all American's, but it's important over here.)

@Cruelty - You seem to be grasping at straws to shift attention to other players, i.e. me and AGM, who convieniently were by far the most likely lynch candidates yesterday. None of the things you are saying about either of us can be refuted, because they are simply factual statements backed up by opinions, and none of them are things anyone hasn't said before. Have an original thought yourself there mate, and stop telling me to. Its Thanksgiving weekend. Chill out.

[cruelty]

This is my one post for the day, it's Thanksgiving (not sure if you're all American's, but it's important over here.)

@Cruelty - You seem to be grasping at straws to shift attention to other players, i.e. me and AGM, who convieniently were by far the most likely lynch candidates yesterday. None of the things you are saying about either of us can be refuted, because they are simply factual statements backed up by opinions, and none of them are things anyone hasn't said before. Have an original thought yourself there mate, and stop telling me to. Its Thanksgiving weekend. Chill out.

First, lol.

Second, I'm not American and Thanksgiving is meaningless to me.

Third, chill out? Really? You make an angry post like that and I should chill out? Chuckle.

Fourth:

None of the things you are saying about either of us can be refuted, because they are simply factual statements backed up by opinions

So you agree that what I'm saying about you is in fact factual (or accurate)?

You seem to be a little disgruntled that I am expressing my opinion (which, btw, contradicts this "Have an original thought yourself") instead of.. well I'm not really sure what I should be doing. Enlighten me please.

Fifth:

You seem to be grasping at straws to shift attention to other players

How so?
Put it this way - if I'm town, how should I react in this situation? Do you think I should focus on defending myself, or should I be attacking the players I think are scummy so that in the event of my mislynch there is information out there for everyone else?

I mean, let's be fair, the case on me is pretty reasonable. It's predicated on fairly heavy speculation about my interactions with other players, but I haven't contributed much (up until now, I think that today I've been absolutely fine) and I wasn't a huge supporter of the Muffin lynch. Oh well. I can't really defend against that, so therefore my only real option is to go on the offensive.

Sixth:

me and AGM, who convieniently were by far the most likely lynch candidates yesterday.

So... you were scummy yesterday, meaning what? I should ignore you today? You're magically absolved by the Muffin flip? What point are you making here? If anything, me looking at you puts me in the spotlight because everyone else seems to think you're innocent. I don't see this as a particularly intelligent play from a scum point of view, so I'm not entirely sure why you see this as a valid point.

It's not that you didn't mention him much or vice versa, it's that neither of you brought up the other, which makes sense for scum trying to lay low.

I don't really buy points like this. It's speculating on why something that never happened, didn't happen. I mean, I understand your point and I realise why you think it's scummy, but I also don't put much stock in trying to explain the reasons that X didn't occur. It means that there's absolutely no fact involved, and you're delving entirely into unprovable territory.

the only time I see you directly state your opinion on him is this:

That's fine. But then, given my day 1 playstyle (lack of contribution), how is this a valid point? I don't believe I stated opinions on many people at all, I don't really think you can point to one person I didn't talk about and condemn me for it.

Pretty much everyone said AGM was scummy in one way or another yesterday. I don't really see what info it would give us except for "AGM is <alignment>"

Right, so why would my flip illuminate AGM's alignment? I don't really understand this - we battled a little but I don't think that was absolutely, positively town vs scum. I think he's scummy as all hell, but I concede a small possibility that he's the worst doctor ever. I think you said as much as well, meaning that my flip wouldn't completely condemn or absolve AGM regardless

[Papa Zito]

cruelty, I don't think you answered this:

I still think foilist is slightly scummy, but I'm not as convinced as I was yesterday.

Why did he help steer a wagon to his Godfather then?

[cruelty]

Well I'm in no position to go crying, so sure.

unvote, vote:Sociopath

His sole contribution to the lynch. Hardly steering anything.

He didn't vote until 5 other people did, either, so I think your question is misleading. He was fairly obviously just riding the wagon.

I can see two reasons for that.

1: foilist-town sees safety, both in numbers and from his own impending lynch, so jumps on the wagon.

2: foilist-scum sees which way the wind is blowing and slips quietly on the back of the wagon.

[cruelty]

To take that one step further, I don't think much can be read into foilist's part in the Muffin lynch. I think that there's reasonable justification for his being on the wagon from both a town and scum perspective, so, null.

I don't have a stunning alternative lynch recommendation (I could see Cruelty's posts coming from town, though if he is I hope he takes my calling him useless to heart).

Done.

[Papa Zito]

He didn't vote until 5 other people did, either, so I think your question is misleading. He was fairly obviously just riding the wagon.

I can see two reasons for that.

1: foilist-town sees safety, both in numbers and from his own impending lynch, so jumps on the wagon.

2: foilist-scum sees which way the wind is blowing and slips quietly on the back of the wagon.

I just went back and looked. This is true actually. He was vote #6.

If we go with the theory that there was a late busser, then it would be one of Foilist or AGM. I say that in particular because of this:

Actually, I'll take it a bit further. If he is scum:

SocioPath (5) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS

I'd put HEAVY money on that whole list being town.

How you like them apples.

Well I'm in no position to go crying, so sure.

unvote, vote:Sociopath

SpyreX declares the wagon town, and Foilist joins it in literally the very next post.

hmmm

[Sanjay]

Him? Why on earth did you protect him? Sure he technically started the wagon on Socio, but it was Phaerie who really pushed the lynch, so a retal kill would probably go to her. There were several strong town players yesterday to choose from, and Papa Zito, being a replacement, was much less confirmed town than some of the others.

What is this, foilist13?

Papa Zito directed a wagon that could have gone in several directions squarely towards the mafia godfather. Even if there might have been more obviously town players, Papa Zito is a fine choice to save.

Also, what's all this about retaliation? AlmasterGM never said anything about trying to stop a retal kill.

Just because a player is scummy doesn't mean you can go after them with BS arguments.

Also, Happy Thanksgiving.

[Gammagooey]

It's not that you didn't mention him much or vice versa, it's that neither of you brought up the other, which makes sense for scum trying to lay low.

I don't really buy points like this. It's speculating on why something that never happened, didn't happen. I mean, I understand your point and I realise why you think it's scummy, but I also don't put much stock in trying to explain the reasons that X didn't occur. It means that there's absolutely no fact involved, and you're delving entirely into unprovable territory.

the only time I see you directly state your opinion on him is this:

That's fine. But then, given my day 1 playstyle (lack of contribution), how is this a valid point? I don't believe I stated opinions on many people at all, I don't really think you can point to one person I didn't talk about and condemn me for it.

Pretty much everyone said AGM was scummy in one way or another yesterday. I don't really see what info it would give us except for "AGM is <alignment>"

Right, so why would my flip illuminate AGM's alignment? I don't really understand this - we battled a little but I don't think that was absolutely, positively town vs scum. I think he's scummy as all hell, but I concede a small possibility that he's the worst doctor ever. I think you said as much as well, meaning that my flip wouldn't completely condemn or absolve AGM regardless

Quotes are together for readability.

Cruelty, I understand that you didn't mention a whole lot of people yesterday. But when two of my top three scummiest players aren't speaking to or about each other, yes, i find that suspicious.
In addition, peanut wasn't nearly as quiet as you, and still didn't say anything about you anyway. Here's a general list of when peanut first started talking about a player, without counting going back to a person he already mentioned.
AGM
me
archae
foilist
Mordy
SpyreX
Sanjay
tiniest mention of Phaerie
---Papa Zito starts the Socio wagon---
Papa Zito
Muffin/Sociopath
actual content on Phaerie
---Day 2 AND i ask him directly for his opinion on you---
cruelty

If you flip scum, I don't see what excuse peanut would have for mentioning you last and the flipped godfather only after a wagon gets rolling on him. In addition, if you're scum despite AGM's play yesterday he just helped to lynch another scum, meaning if he's bussing he's pretty screwed anyway. (1 maf vs 7-8 townies generally doesn't work out well for the scum)

If you flip town, I don't see AGM being town after his scumtastic play, terrible claim, and being on a townie wagon.

[foilist13]

@Cruelty - Thanksgiving is a huge ass deal here.

1) Factual is referring to "he said this," or "AGM wrote that" etc. The opinions are the arguments you've made about them.

2) Totally cool that you're going on the offensive. My issue is that so far you don't seem to be doing it very well. It looks to me like you are not scumhunting, but looking for arguments and posts that can be made to look scummy.

3) Your going after me and AGM is not necessarily bad or illegitimate, but it seems exceedingly convenient.

4) Do you have an issue with when I voted Sociopath? I liked the case against him, but I still preferred AGM. However, his wagon had the added benefit of me not getting lynched, and AGM's had entirely dried up. Under no circumstances (except for jesterI think) is it beneficial to my win condition to be lynched. I bring this up only because I've been accused before of being scummy for not wanting to be lynched, I think that's stupid.

Ok, done defending myself.

Now, Cruelty, who do you think is a better lynch candidate than you are? Is it still AGM, or have you shifted to someone else?

[cruelty]

Cruelty, I understand that you didn't mention a whole lot of people yesterday. But when two of my top three scummiest players aren't speaking to or about each other, yes, i find that suspicious.

Wait, so you're condemning me for something peanut didn't do? What the...

Anyway let's look at this a touch more objectively. Obviously, regardless of my alignment, I don't want to be lynched. Additionally, I also have to convince you that I'm town (again regardless of my alignment) and that there's minimal benefit to my lynch. Thus, there's a hefty dose of self-preservation coupled with a growing concern that town is tunneling in on a mislynch (yep) present in my recent (and this) posts.

If I flip scum, you can crucify peanut/AGM and hopefully win the game. Unless there's someone smarter pulling the strings, my scumflip probably means an easy town win.

If I flip town, then AGM comes under heavy suspicion and I think will be the next lynch, despite being a claimed doc. Peanut actually gets off the hook a little in this scenario - his not mentioning me becomes a null tell and you're back to hypothesising about his role in the Muffin lynch (which I think will also look a lot less scummy).

I assume that most of you have essentially cleared foilist so I'll ignore him for now - what other information can you hope to derive from my lynch? You get two likely suspects who are already suspicious to a majority of town OR you effectively clear one and retain one. This doesn't seem to me like a hugely informative flip.

I'm going to throw out peanut as the better lynch - even though I'm not entirely sold on the idea of him as mafia (although I do understand the cases being made) I'm willing to get behind his lynch for two reasons - one is obviously to save myself, and the other is I think we'll get genuine information from it. Firstly, as someone said earlier, cruelty/peanut scumteam + bussing at this point = suicide, so I think that by pushing this lynch I can effectively clear myself regardless of his flip. Secondly, if he flips town then we learn that there is a much more devious player at work here - I highly doubt anyone seriously considers an AGM/cruelty or foilist/cruelty scumteam, so regardless of how I look in a peanut-town flip, it becomes obvious that there is another, more dangerous (and possibly already cleared) player out there. I realise that's a fairly bold swing to make and yeah, WIFOM laden, but I can't see a better way out for both myself and for town.

I don't think an AGM lynch is really beneficial - there's the nagging possibility that he IS the doctor, and I don't think he's good enough to be able to win the game as mafia from this point. I think he's the scummiest and I want him lynched the most, but I'm trying to be as objective as possible and I can't see how his flip will be that informative. And I hate that.

@ mod, votecount please?

[Sanjay]

I remember thinking foilist13 was essentially cleared but I don't remember why.

I don't think I have enough suspects if all the people I consider essentially cleared actually are.