Community

[The Bombay]

My role name is Advocate. It's role is Advocate i'm assuming because an Advocate advocates. And when i pm the mod he confirms that i'm an advocate which is my role name.

But what is your ability? I am assuming it is not advocate as well.

One would think that

Are you claiming that your role name, and not just the ability, is Advocate?

~Luke

Because the same game having one player

Flavor name: Proponent
Ability: Advocate

And another player

Flavor name: Advocate
Ability: Advocate

Feels really wrong.

If not, what is your flavor name and why did you hide it before, when I was specifically asking how your flavor lined up with your ability?

My role name is Advocate. It's role is Advocate i'm assuming because an Advocate advocates. And when i pm the mod he confirms that i'm an advocate which is my role name.

[Morning Tweet]

I saw all of that but I'm not satisfied because that makes no sense

[The Bombay]

I saw all of that but I'm not satisfied because that makes no sense

Agreed, and my conclusion is that they are...

Spoiler:

lying

[The Bombay]

I am like so incredibly sure that Koka is scum here.

[Morning Tweet]

Roden still didn't confirm to me

[The Bombay]

Roden still didn't confirm to me

Yeah. I saw your post.

And I am not 100% sure what to make of that tbh.

I was pretty sure that Koka was scum before Roden even activated his Advocate ability, and I wanted it before that even happened.

[Morning Tweet]

I'm an Advocate for the Community itself, meant to bring attention of our plight to the wider world. I reveal my alignment to the Government because flavor-wise I become a political target.

Koka, how does your flavor of advocate get to q moonlight dancer?

Like, in my mind an "advocate" is [someone] who is doing things for [someone or something else].

How is that getting to "you can have your own pr name revealed?"

I pm the mod "Represent Residents" and the mod confirms my role in the main thread.
It makes sense since an advocate is "a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy." according to wiki

Another point that I thought about Roden v Koka was that when comparing the two of these, one reads like they got a mod description of their role flavor that they are sharing to the thread, and one looks like they are making up an explanation (even looking things up on a wiki to make sure it makes sense).

Roden could be bending the flavour in their scum lore. But I can follow your reasoning.

I don't follow why Koka needs to make up an explanation when they're both confirmed to be Advocates. They both can read from their PMs here
. t

[RH]

Scarfmanship replaces Flavia. Please welcome them!

[The Bombay]

I'm an Advocate for the Community itself, meant to bring attention of our plight to the wider world. I reveal my alignment to the Government because flavor-wise I become a political target.

Koka, how does your flavor of advocate get to q moonlight dancer?

Like, in my mind an "advocate" is [someone] who is doing things for [someone or something else].

How is that getting to "you can have your own pr name revealed?"

I pm the mod "Represent Residents" and the mod confirms my role in the main thread.
It makes sense since an advocate is "a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy." according to wiki

Another point that I thought about Roden v Koka was that when comparing the two of these, one reads like they got a mod description of their role flavor that they are sharing to the thread, and one looks like they are making up an explanation (even looking things up on a wiki to make sure it makes sense).

Roden could be bending the flavour in their scum lore. But I can follow your reasoning.

I don't follow why Koka needs to make up an explanation when they're both confirmed to be Advocates. They both can read from their PMs here
. t

My guess was that the flavor read as "bad guy."

"You the Advocate for the delegation, the chosen legal counsel to argue on behalf of their agenda. Doing so will make you a political target"

Kind of thing. And because of the delegation flavor baked in, Koka had to make up an answer to my question that did not out themselves, so went to a wiki to try to make a plausible explanation that didn't do that. (While also, not expecting there to be another advocate out there to call them out for it.)

~Luke

[The Bombay]

I would actually be kind of surprised if "it will make you a political target" was not common to their role pms, seeing as both have claimed that their ability outs their role to the thread and additional information to the government.

But Koka did not say anything like that when asked

[Morning Tweet]

I disagree.. describing it as a moonlight dancer makes a lot of sense. Your question of "how did you get to moonlight dancer from advocate" doesn't make sense to me.

Why would Koka need to answer as to why they described it as a moonlight dancer rather than as an "Advocate for the people" or whatever

[Morning Tweet]

I can see where you're coming from regarding what they reveal with flavour, though

[The Bombay]

I disagree.. describing it as a moonlight dancer makes a lot of sense. Your question of "how did you get to moonlight dancer from advocate" doesn't make sense to me.

Why would Koka need to answer as to why they described it as a moonlight dancer rather than as an "Advocate for the people" or whatever

I am not sure you understood what I was trying to say. Calling her role ability a moonlight dancer is accurate.

My question was how her flavor name lined up with her getting that ability. Basically, asking her to describe her role flavor to me.

Her explanation relied on a wiki, whereas roden's explanation was "as an advocate I will become a politcal target" ie being an advocate = a moonlight dancer ability.

[Scarfmanship]

so

roden claims advocate
koka claims advocate
both of them got mod confirmed as an advocate, but they disagree on role flavor/text/details(?) how is this an issue if they both got mod confirmed to have the advocate role? clearly it is in both of their role PMs, what does it matter if koka was trying to be tricky and fish for the 3p?

but roden also is a friendly neighbor who sent a message to morning tweet, and morning tweet didn't get it?

Am I misunderstanding any of this? Because if I'm not, you just kill roden for being in conflict with 2 slots, right? Assuming the first conflict even makes sense because it doesn't to me, and if the first conflict isn't even real then you can kill in roden/morning tweet, but tweet has 0 votes. ??? what is going on

[Roden]

Nothing's really changed for me because I already expected Tweet's slot to deny my mod confirm. The long gap of time between replacing in and actually posting is about what I expected for someone who needs to talk with the mod to confirm mech stuff and read their slot's ISO to make sure they don't accidentally contradict anything the previous player in the slot said.

I'm an Advocate for the Community itself, meant to bring attention of our plight to the wider world. I reveal my alignment to the Government because flavor-wise I become a political target.

Koka, how does your flavor of advocate get to q moonlight dancer?

Like, in my mind an "advocate" is [someone] who is doing things for [someone or something else].

How is that getting to "you can have your own pr name revealed?"

I pm the mod "Represent Residents" and the mod confirms my role in the main thread.
It makes sense since an advocate is "a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy." according to wiki

Another point that I thought about Roden v Koka was that when comparing the two of these, one reads like they got a mod description of their role flavor that they are sharing to the thread, and one looks like they are making up an explanation (even looking things up on a wiki to make sure it makes sense).

Roden could be bending the flavour in their scum lore. But I can follow your reasoning.

I don't follow why Koka needs to make up an explanation when they're both confirmed to be Advocates. They both can read from their PMs here
. t

This doesn't make any sense? How can I be scum bending my flavor when I'm the only one giving flavor? I feel like town's first instinct when seeing that a player can't give flavor should be "maybe they have a scummy flavor text", not "oh, they can't give flavor or even their role name, they must be town and the player giving relevant flavor must be scum".

[Roden]

so

roden claims advocate
koka claims advocate
both of them got mod confirmed as an advocate, but they disagree on role flavor/text/details(?) how is this an issue if they both got mod confirmed to have the advocate role? clearly it is in both of their role PMs, what does it matter if koka was trying to be tricky and fish for the 3p?

but roden also is a friendly neighbor who sent a message to morning tweet, and morning tweet didn't get it?

Am I misunderstanding any of this? Because if I'm not, you just kill roden for being in conflict with 2 slots, right? Assuming the first conflict even makes sense because it doesn't to me, and if the first conflict isn't even real then you can kill in roden/morning tweet, but tweet has 0 votes. ??? what is going on

The 3P has to deny the FN message, which Tweet did. Koka is scum for getting caught lying about their role. I'm in conflict with two other players because they literally got caught.

[Morning Tweet]

I disagree.. describing it as a moonlight dancer makes a lot of sense. Your question of "how did you get to moonlight dancer from advocate" doesn't make sense to me.

Why would Koka need to answer as to why they described it as a moonlight dancer rather than as an "Advocate for the people" or whatever

I am not sure you understood what I was trying to say. Calling her role ability a moonlight dancer is accurate.

My question was how her flavor name lined up with her getting that ability. Basically, asking her to describe her role flavor to me.

Her explanation relied on a wiki, whereas roden's explanation was "as an advocate I will become a politcal target" ie being an advocate = a moonlight dancer ability.

I got the impression that Koka didn't know the definition of advocate so they looked it up. If they truly didn't know the definition, then they prolly would have had to do that

But I see that you're saying they should be able to explain why their role has a "reveal self" ability using the lore and the whole "design" of the role, rather than through looking up the definition of their role

Wracking my brain about this too long.

@Scarf They are both mod confirmed advocates. Koka says their role is called advocate but Roden says their role is called Proponent with an ability called Advocate. But they both agree on the phrase they had to PM to the mod.

Roden's claim includes a "target" which supposedly gets informed Roden is town, Koka's does not. Plus Roden informs the scumteam of his alignment when using the ability.

Koka's role seems like its supposed to fish for SK in convoluted fashion by notifying the SK that they need to kill Koka or have their identity revealed to scum

.....

Roden came across to me as piling on fairly weak reasons for Koka's claim being fake and Roden picking Frog to message doesn't really make sense.
Roden's role claim functionally is a lot easier for me to visualize than Koka's though, I get confused when I try to understand how Koka's role and ability are the same thing.

[The Bombay]

so

roden claims advocate
koka claims advocate
both of them got mod confirmed as an advocate, but they disagree on role flavor/text/details(?) how is this an issue if they both got mod confirmed to have the advocate role? clearly it is in both of their role PMs, what does it matter if koka was trying to be tricky and fish for the 3p?

but roden also is a friendly neighbor who sent a message to morning tweet, and morning tweet didn't get it?

Am I misunderstanding any of this? Because if I'm not, you just kill roden for being in conflict with 2 slots, right? Assuming the first conflict even makes sense because it doesn't to me, and if the first conflict isn't even real then you can kill in roden/morning tweet, but tweet has 0 votes. ??? what is going on

Order of operations:

Koka was being kinda scummy, and started getting some pressure.

Koka activated their advocate ability, and the mod posted they were an advocate, and Koka claimed

It's a Moonlight dancer with an additional on-death trigger, and no it's sadly not a vengeful.

Because koka was still kinda scummy, they got some more votes. And Koka then revealed that they lied when they said that they had "an additional on-death trigger" like, they have completely dropped that, and instead changed their claim to be

When i get modconfirmed the government receives a notification that the delegation will find out their identity during the next night phase(N2 in this case) unless i get killed.

The way their claim shifted from "if you kill me something bad will happen, so don't kill me" to "if you let me live, the 3p will lose, so don't kill me" made it seem to me like both of those were lies just hoping to survive.

At the same time, I ask them to explain their flavor to me, and in order to answer, they had to reference a wiki instead of their own role pm.
----

After all of this, with Koka already in a fairly bad spot, and Roden with 0 votes, Roden activated his Advocate ability.

He claims to have done so because he feels like Koka is scum who messed up their claim, and based on his own Advocate role pm, he is sure that Koka is scum.

The issues he outlines were:
-Koka claimed that their role name is Advocate, BUT that is not how his Role PM worked. His role name is Proponent and his ability is Advocate. So he thinks that Koka is lying about their role name.

-He also claimed that his role PM made it very clear why his flavor did the thing that it does, and so Koka looked like they were lying about their flavor.

-------

Looking at these two, Koka looks way more like scum.

Like for Koka: they claimed while under pressure, lied about their claim to discourage their elimination, and then changed their claim to a new claim to discourage their elimination. Additionally, their current claim is that their ability just... outs the 3p. But then they just... did not use that ability until after they were under pressure... for some reason.

And Roden: claimed while under zero pressure, in order to reveal "evidence" that Koka was scum, when Koka was already a leading wagon. So he could have just... not done that lol. His actions line up more with someone thinking they have caught scum then with scum entering into a forced 1v1 for seemingly no reason.

[Morning Tweet]

Nothing's really changed for me because I already expected Tweet's slot to deny my mod confirm. The long gap of time between replacing in and actually posting is about what I expected for someone who needs to talk with the mod to confirm mech stuff and read their slot's ISO to make sure they don't accidentally contradict anything the previous player in the slot said.

I'm an Advocate for the Community itself, meant to bring attention of our plight to the wider world. I reveal my alignment to the Government because flavor-wise I become a political target.

Koka, how does your flavor of advocate get to q moonlight dancer?

Like, in my mind an "advocate" is [someone] who is doing things for [someone or something else].

How is that getting to "you can have your own pr name revealed?"

I pm the mod "Represent Residents" and the mod confirms my role in the main thread.
It makes sense since an advocate is "a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy." according to wiki

Another point that I thought about Roden v Koka was that when comparing the two of these, one reads like they got a mod description of their role flavor that they are sharing to the thread, and one looks like they are making up an explanation (even looking things up on a wiki to make sure it makes sense).

Roden could be bending the flavour in their scum lore. But I can follow your reasoning.

I don't follow why Koka needs to make up an explanation when they're both confirmed to be Advocates. They both can read from their PMs here
. t

This doesn't make any sense? How can I be scum bending my flavor when I'm the only one giving flavor? I feel like town's first instinct when seeing that a player can't give flavor should be "maybe they have a scummy flavor text", not "oh, they can't give flavor or even their role name, they must be town and the player giving relevant flavor must be scum".

I didn't say you're more suspicious for giving flavour, i was offering an alternative explanation for why you may have given flavour as scum.

I'm not really sure it was my first instinct to really note anything about this, I'm more naysaying Luke's reasoning.

[The Bombay]

I will also say that Koka's role, as currently claimed, is actually pretty bad game design.

The claim: I active my ability, the entire thread is told that I have activated my ability, so long as I live to day 2, the 3p (functionally) LOSES THE GAME

That is a pretty fucked up thing to throw at the 3p, and I don't even know what the 3p could do about such an ability if Koka had activated at the start of the day, and then said "If there is a protective out there, it better be on me tonight, can't say more until tomorrow"

[Morning Tweet]

The way their claim shifted from "if you kill me something bad will happen, so don't kill me" to "if you let me live, the 3p will lose, so don't kill me" made it seem to me like both of those were lies just hoping to survive.

I don't see where this occured. The on-death effect didn't come off as a "don't kill me", and neither did the SK-baiting part. Scum throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks maybe but 'lies hoping to survive' is way too far.

How are these a "don't kill me" claim:

It's a Moonlight dancer with an additional on-death trigger, and no it's sadly not a vengeful.

When i get modconfirmed the government receives a notification that the delegation will find out their identity during the next night phase(N2 in this case) unless i get killed.

Plus I can't even really say that the claim truly shifted.

Koka was being kinda scummy, and started getting some pressure.

Koka activated their advocate ability, and the mod posted they were an advocate, and Koka claimed

It's a Moonlight dancer with an additional on-death trigger, and no it's sadly not a vengeful.

Because koka was still kinda scummy, they got some more votes. And Koka then revealed that they lied when they said that they had "an additional on-death trigger" like,

they have completely dropped that, and instead changed their claim to be

When i get modconfirmed the government receives a notification that the delegation will find out their identity during the next night phase(N2 in this case) unless i get killed.

The way their claim shifted from "if you kill me something bad will happen, so don't kill me" to "if you let me live, the 3p will lose, so don't kill me" made it seem to me like both of those were lies just hoping to survive.

What do you mean that Koka lied about the additional on-death trigger? That's the SK thing, no? All of the bolded doesn't accurately describe what happened as far as i can tell

[JohnnyFarrar]

So wait I might be getting lost in the sauce here sweets, why do you think Roden claimed in the first place?

[Morning Tweet]

I will also say that Koka's role, as currently claimed, is actually pretty bad game design.

The claim: I active my ability, the entire thread is told that I have activated my ability, so long as I live to day 2, the 3p (functionally) LOSES THE GAME

That is a pretty fucked up thing to throw at the 3p, and I don't even know what the 3p could do about such an ability if Koka had activated at the start of the day, and then said "If there is a protective out there, it better be on me tonight, can't say more until tomorrow"

Hmm, maybe. Not sure how much luck Koka would have with getting a protective but forcing the SK's hand (and them losing if they miss the kill) is annoying. Maybe there's something we're not accounting for about the third party. But maybe you're right and Koka is just making something up that doesn't actually function. It sounds too harsh and hard to play around from just looking at the role.

[Morning Tweet]

So wait I might be getting lost in the sauce here sweets, why do you think Roden claimed in the first place?

First thing everyone should know: my role isn't called Advocate or Moonlight Dancer. My ability is called Advocate, but my role is actually called

Proponent

. Koka has already botched their role claim as far as flavor goes. I'm fairly certain Koka isn't claiming their real role name because it would sound scummy and didn't think anyone else was also an Advocate. Though Koka did say the correct trigger phrase "Represent Residents", as that was mine as well.

Besides that, the secondary effect from my ability let's me send a message to my target mod-confirming me as town. I'd like for this player to announce this, please.

So Roden activated the ability and claimed to counter Koka's claim. It seems like a slam dunk to kill Koka immediately because Roden also reveals that they're a daytime friendly neighbour. But no announcement ever comes from another player saying they got the message. I don't see the motivation to include that extra bit with the friendly neighbour, Roden could have just left it without adding that and we'd probably be on our merry way. It doesn't really make sense

[Morning Tweet]

Yeah and I know that wasn't answering the question. We all know why Roden claimed the first part and I don't know why Roden claimed the second part