Mini 486: GAME OVER!

[Albert B. Rampage]

During a quiet and distasteful supper, CKD's face suddenly contorts as he falls. He gasps incomprehensible things until his heart finally stops beating. Poison. You search his body and find a picture of him and volkan at the world cup with what seems to be their wives.

CKD, mason, has been NK'd night 3.

[curiouskarmadog]

During a quiet and distasteful supper, CKD's face suddenly contorts as he falls. He gasps incomprehensible things until his heart finally stops beating. Poison. You search his body and find a picture of him and volkan at the world cup with what seems to be their wives.

CKD, mason, has been NK'd night 3.

bah, good luck town

[gorckat]

By the way...Bah! Go town!

[Nelly632]

Well Shanba is my gut feeling for being the last scum & Elias is a person that I would like to lynch because I think he has alot of suspcion on him since Day One and I would hate for him to turn out to be the last scum and we all look like fools who allowed him to talk his way too the end...

I would say:

Elias - 70%
Shanba - 30%

What does everyone else think?

[Setael]

I think it's odd that you say you think Shanba is the last scum, but want to vote Elias. I know it's not kosher to theorize about who the masons are which is why I stayed out of Nelly's musings yesterday, but I think the final mason is pretty well narrowed down to either Shanba or Hermit, so I wouldn't be willing to wagon either of them. I suggest that neither of you come even close to claiming or denying since if we mislynch today that would make you tonight's target.

After gorckat turned up scum, I think we have to rethink some things. I think I've been giving Nelly a free pass which was maybe a mistake. His attempts to draw out the last mason yesterday gave off major scum vibes and his first post today once again made me doubt my original feeling that he was obvtown. It still very well could be Elias, but I'm rereading before I decide who to vote for.

[Nelly632]

I think it's odd that you say you think Shanba is the last scum, but want to vote Elias. I know it's not kosher to theorize about who the masons are which is why I stayed out of Nelly's musings yesterday, but I think the final mason is pretty well narrowed down to either Shanba or Hermit, so I wouldn't be willing to wagon either of them. I suggest that neither of you come even close to claiming or denying since if we mislynch today that would make you tonight's target.

After gorckat turned up scum

, I think we have to rethink some things. I think I've been giving Nelly a free pass which was maybe a mistake. His attempts to draw out the last mason yesterday gave off major scum vibes and his first post today once again made me doubt my original feeling that he was obvtown. It still very well could be Elias, but I'm rereading before I decide who to vote for.

Interesting post because the only thing that was keeping your name out of the mix was that fact that I was about 100% confident you were the last Mason and I would have just assumed you were lying when you said you werent the last mason but your comment above makes me feel that you are confirming you are not the last mason and it doesnt feel like you are lying...

Reason I would vote off Elias and not Shanba was clear in my post, I said I had a gut that Shanba was scum and I think a gut feeling is over ruled by my mind which is telling me that Elias is probably the last scum.

But the fact that you are turning to me and trying to draw attention to me strikes me as odd and makes me consider if you are the last scum. Because I am the logical choice for the scum to point at on this day, I ruffled a few feathers with my Mason comments yesterday & today that can easily be twisted.

I don't know but something deep down inside me wants to just toss my vote on you right now and just not look back taking the consequences that would come with it but never changing my vote.

Hell screw it I am going to read to much into the Gorckat comment you made above and reach for the stars. I am sure some of you will not like my vote and some of you will tear me a new butt hole but I am sticking with this one.

Vote:Setael

BTW since we only have one MASON left they are effectivly just a townie because they have no one to talk to and no powers. But by claming Mason and no one counter claiming you, you leave our choice down to four today giving us a better chance of finding the remaining scum. Yeah the odds are that if we mis-lynch then the scum will Nightkill you because you are confirmed town in our eyes. That would leave us with 3 and yeah while you might be dead I have always live by the thought that if the town wins you win regardless if you are dead. I THINK THE MASON CLAIM WOULD HELP US SO WE DONT MISLYNCH...

If you don't feel that way then fine remain quite but if we still mis-lynch then you still have a chance of getting Night Killed tonight.

[Setael]

I find it interesting that you vote me considering you have never once mentioned any suspicion of me, nor do you give any concrete reason now. You think Shanba and Elias are scum, but you're voting me... because I'm not the last mason when you thought I was? Does that really make sense to you?

Is the

only

reason you are voting me

seriously

because I accidentally said "gorckat turned up scum" when I obviously meant "gorckat turned up Town?" That's a pretty big stretch, you have to admit. Your vote is both OMGUS and senseless.

I don't know but something deep down inside me wants to just toss my vote on you right now and just not look back taking the consequences that would come with it but never changing my vote.

That attitude is not exactly pro-Town.

Regardless of how anti-Town you are being right now, I would still be shocked if you are scum, though I do plan to reread and see if I was just being blind by assuming you were Town. At this point I think you are just being an unhelpful, foolish Townie.

P.S. I very much disagree that the last mason should claim, nor do I see how Nelly could possibly think it's town to suggest it. We are far from guaranteed to lynch correctly today and it's senseless to point out the last mason for tonight's NK.

[Elias_the_thief]

My thoughts on various people: Set I need to reread on. Nelly, I think is very dangerous at this point because he hasnt really been posting too much all game, effectively making him very hard to read. Shanba just came into the game and its hard to get a read on them at this point. I've obviously been suspicious of Hermit all game, so he ranks up there. I dunno. I need a reread to collect my thoughts.

At first I though it would be best to leave the mason anonymous unless theyre forced to claim by nearly being lynched, to protect them from the NK. However, if it gets to a 1v1v1 situation, the mason claim will be useless since a scum can just counterclaim, and it will come to one townie making the 50-50 decision to win it. If I've counted correctly, the 1v1v1 comes tomorrow if we mislynch today. So I'm all for the mason claim at this point, since it will allow us a smaller field of suspects and it will not really hurt us that much to lose the mason today as opposed to tomorrow.

[Elias_the_thief]

PS: while I disagree on the mason issue, I agree with set about hermit. the vote is foolish and wont get us anywhere if its seriously based on just a mix up of two words.

[Setael]

I think you meant Nelly.

Yesterday there were several posts telling CKD that he should either have his mason buddy claim, or breadcrumb who the other mason is. I would be willing to bet that once CKD heard that, he did breadcrumb and the 3rd mason will be able to prove they are a mason in a 1v1v1 situation. If that is the case (and if it's not, then the masons weren't so bright) then the mason should NOT claim, and obviously won't if they have half a brain, since they would know there is no need. I really wonder about both Nelly and Elias, because I'd think they could realize on their own that CKD must have breadcrumbed. They can't both be mafia. More likely, one of them is scum and the other one is just not thinking. You can probably all guess which one is which.

[Nelly632]

I think you meant Nelly.

Yesterday there were several posts telling CKD that he should either have his mason buddy claim, or breadcrumb who the other mason is. I would be willing to bet that once CKD heard that, he did breadcrumb and the 3rd mason will be able to prove they are a mason in a 1v1v1 situation. If that is the case (and if it's not, then the masons weren't so bright) then the mason should NOT claim, and obviously won't if they have

half a brain

, since they would know there is no need. I really wonder about both Nelly and Elias, because I'd think they could realize on their own that CKD must have breadcrumbed. They can't both be mafia. More likely, one of them is scum and the other one is just not thinking. You can probably all guess which one is which.

Look it is simply a difference of opinon on the matter, I dont see the big deal on protecting our last mason because his life is no longer more important then mine in this game. He cannot communicate with anyone in this game outside this thread just like I can't. So by him outing himself he gives us who KNOW we are town a better ideal of who to vote for, and since we are talking about breadcrumbing what makes you believe that the remaining scum has not already caught on to who the last mason is and isn't already planning on killing him when night hits.

Right now I have no suspicion of Hermit because he was my second choice for Mason (Behind you). So lets say Shanba comes out and says he is the mason, well then I start thinking that Hermit could be Scum. Another example is lets say Shanba is Mason and Hermit is scum, well in my mind I have already cleared Hermit and I have a FOS on Shanba, so we lynch Elias and then you get Night Killed. Hermit comes out and says that he is the last Mason & Shanba counters his claim. Well who do you think I am going to believe?

I guess what I am saying is that we all can't be as smart as you Setael and follow all the breadcrumbs to know with certanity that a person is Mason.

But the Mason can do whatever he wants to do I am not going to presure him by insinuating that he has to be a moron to do something that I disagree with like you have pretty much done.

[TheHermit]

Nelly: When is the confirmed innocent more valuable? When there are four people who might be scum besides him? Or when there are two? Saying the mason's life is just as valuable as your own ignores that they are CONFIRMED innocent, while you are not. And I'm with Setael; ckd must have left a few breadcrumbs so that we can identify his partner.

Although I haven't done a read-through on Setael yet, right now Shanba is my best bet for scum. Why? Because I can't get a good read on her, and I get a pretty good town read from everyone else. In this case, the most suspicious person is suspicious only because everyone else is not. The logic isn't strong enough for a vote, but hopefully you all can see where my concern lies.

[Shanba]

Although I haven't done a read-through on Setael yet, right now Shanba is my best bet for scum. Why? Because I can't get a good read on her, and I get a pretty good town read from everyone else. In this case, the most suspicious person is suspicious only because everyone else is not. The logic isn't strong enough for a vote, but hopefully you all can see where my concern lies.

Bleh. I feel I should address this, but there's not a whole lot to say, because it's logic that reads town to me. In this case the conclusion is wrong, but often I have used that same logic and found scum as town, so I read it as town logic.

As for you not getting a read on me, I apologise. I haven't put the effort into this game I should have. I find it difficult to play in analysis heavy games, and this is definitely analysis heavy. My contributions are becoming more important now we're approaching endgame, so I'll put extra effort into it from now on.

Elias I'm still fairly sure is town. There are things that worry me still, but the overall feel I get is town. TheHermit I'm more worried about, but I don't think he's a good lynch today.

So it's down to Nelly and Setael. Nelly's self-vote trap strikes me as a town play, becaus I don't see scum's mind working like that. There are several other comments he's made which make me think he's probably town. I don't like his fishing for the masons, but overall I reckon he's town.

That leaves Setael. Early in his posts he votes SPAG: this is good. I like it. However, there are other things that drag him back below the neutral category. His position on Gorckat and Elias is one of them. After SPAG died, he was pushing Elias fairly heavily. However, he then suddenly turned his attention to Gorckat with this comment:

I've been thinking if it turns out I'm wrong about Elias and he comes up Town, that I would then look closer at gorckat.

He supplies reasons and logic behind his switch to Gorckat, too, but this still reads as scummy. If one is town, he'll attack the other? Two birds with one stone. As such, he's my top candidate for scum.

[Nelly632]

Nelly: When is the confirmed innocent more valuable? When there are four people who might be scum besides him? Or when there are two? Saying the mason's life is just as valuable as your own ignores that they are CONFIRMED innocent, while you are not. And I'm with Setael; ckd must have left a few breadcrumbs so that we can identify his partner.

Although I haven't done a read-through on Setael yet, right now Shanba is my best bet for scum. Why? Because I can't get a good read on her, and I get a pretty good town read from everyone else. In this case, the most suspicious person is suspicious only because everyone else is not. The logic isn't strong enough for a vote, but hopefully you all can see where my concern lies.

See I have no problem believing something is the majority thinks I am wrong and in this case the mojority doesn't but I will accept peoples opinions on the matter. If the Mason claims fine if he doesn't it isn't going to kill me. I like my vote on Setael and the only thing that echos in my mind is that he replaced Pulsewidth who I was confident was Town. But as of right now I do stand by my vote and would like to see a lynch or maybe someones opinion on the matter.

[TheHermit]

Nelly, you're seriously stretching the applicability of the newbie card. So your entire case rests on that he didn't immediately claim he's a mason (he wondered who it might be, but note that isn't confirming or denying that he's a mason), and that he's suspicious of you? It's way, way too late in the game to make an OMGUS vote unless you've got something else to back it up with, and you don't.

Congratulations, Nelly. You have earned my attention.

[Nelly632]

Nelly, you're seriously stretching the applicability of the newbie card. So your entire case rests on that he didn't immediately claim he's a mason (he wondered who it might be, but note that isn't confirming or denying that he's a mason), and that he's suspicious of you? It's way, way too late in the game to make an OMGUS vote unless you've got something else to back it up with, and you don't.

Congratulations, Nelly. You have earned my attention.

Go ahead and toss your attention on me I have no problem with that but nothing you will say will change my vote on Setael because I honestly feel confident that he is the last scum proof or no proof.

[Setael]

Nelly, please give reasons why you think I am scum. So far, these are the reasons you have given:
1) I'm not a mason.
2) I once typed "scum" instead of "town" in a sentence where I obviously meant town.

Uh... I think that's it. I should not have inferred that you are stupid - that was uncalled for. I was obviously frustrated that you would vote me for no good reason the way you did.

If you are going to keep your vote on me, please reread me and see if there are any decent reasons for thinking I am scum. Don't forget to read the SPAG wagon because I don't see how my stand on him could possibly be interpreted as anything but pro-Town.

Elias I'm still fairly sure is town. There are things that worry me still, but the overall feel I get is town. TheHermit I'm more worried about, but I don't think he's a good lynch today.

Please give us your reasons for thinking Elias is town. Also, please give your reasons for concern re: TheHermit.

So it's down to Nelly and Setael. Nelly's self-vote trap strikes me as a town play, becaus I don't see scum's mind working like that. There are several other comments he's made which make me think he's probably town. I don't like his fishing for the masons, but overall I reckon he's town.

I agree with all of this. I still think Nelly is Town, I just think he needs to reread.

That leaves Setael. Early in his posts he votes SPAG: this is good. I like it.

And yet I am your main scum suspect. Please reconcile the two.

However, there are other things that drag him back below the neutral category. His position on Gorckat and Elias is one of them. After SPAG died, he was pushing Elias fairly heavily. However, he then suddenly turned his attention to Gorckat with this comment:

I've been thinking if it turns out I'm wrong about Elias and he comes up Town, that I would then look closer at gorckat.

He supplies reasons and logic behind his switch to Gorckat, too, but this still reads as scummy. If one is town, he'll attack the other? Two birds with one stone. As such, he's my top candidate for scum.

This is the only reason you give for me being your top candidate for scum, and it is a very weak reason. I admit that I put too much weight on the fact that a claimed mason thought gorckat was scum. I was suspicious of gorckat and thought if I happened to be wrong about Elias, then I would turn attention to gorckat. Once the mason was pushing harder for gorckat, I decided to support him and switch, especially since I knew it was very possible I was wrong about Elias and gorckat was actually the scum.

I think you, also, need to reread me. No one has anything genuinely scummy to bring up against me because there isn't anything.

[Nelly632]

Nelly, please give reasons why you think I am scum. So far, these are the reasons you have given:
1) I'm not a mason.
2) I once typed "scum" instead of "town" in a sentence where I obviously meant town.

Uh... I think that's it. I should not have inferred that you are stupid - that was uncalled for

. I was obviously frustrated that you would vote me for no good reason the way you did.

If you are going to keep your vote on me, please reread me and see if there are any decent reasons for thinking I am scum. Don't forget to read the SPAG wagon because I don't see how my stand on him could possibly be interpreted as anything but pro-Town.

Thank you I appreciate you stating that and don't worry I have seen worse but yes please give me some time but I am more then willing to re-read and see exactly what is going on with you. When I was choosing between Elias & Shanba I said I would vote for Elias over Shanba because I don't like going with my gut to often but my vote on you is because my gut is telling me too and like I said above I don't like going with my gut to often something about your actions in this game have my mind convinced that you are our last scum. But I can be wrong and I will re-read and post ASAP.

[Elias_the_thief]

Nelly: When is the confirmed innocent more valuable? When there are four people who might be scum besides him? Or when there are two? Saying the mason's life is just as valuable as your own ignores that they are CONFIRMED innocent, while you are not. And I'm with Setael; ckd must have left a few breadcrumbs so that we can identify his partner.

They are not necessarily a confirmed innocent since there is really no assurance that they left any breadcrumbs. Basically you want to put the entire game's fate in the hands of one player being able to find and understand breadcrumbs which may or may not even be there to begin with? Sorry, that's just not the smartest idea. If we have him claim now, 1) It narrows our field of choices, 2) it doesnt really hurt us that much because its totally up to chance whether CKD left breadcrumbs and whether the town player can find them.

Anyways, yes, I meant Nelly in my previous post, and I still think the vote is ridiculous. You cant go on gut this late in the game. Logic is the most important thing now.

[TheHermit]

It's not a matter of finding and understanding them. It's a matter of ckd leaving them and then saying last night to his other mason buddy, "When you claim, point them to this post I made; I left clues there to help you." This is basic, basic strategy... do you really think it eluded him?

In any case, we've all posted and there's no claim in sight. Looks like our mason's done the smart thing and is clamming up.

[Elias_the_thief]

It still comes down to CKD actually leaving them, and also leaving ones that are actually good. I mean, if he left some that were really vague, we'll be screwed anyhow.

Im going to be gone til monday.

[TheHermit]

pulsewidth...

40: Laments that the random voting part is over. FOS's oj and DFN.

78: Says that he's not ready to put DFN at L-1. Asks Hermit about the oj/DFN situation.

123: Thinks DFN hasn't done a good job defending himself. FOS's Nelly because he suspects oj yet only votes him, then votes Hermit to force him to expound on his thoughts.

130-1: Wonders if Nelly is playing so badly because he's a Jester, although he's skeptical of this possibility because the open setup says there isn't a Jester.

143: Explains to Nelly that if he really is town, he would pull the vote off himself to prevent the town from lynching a green.

153: Doesn't really buy Hermit's explanations, but thinks Para is more scummy anyway and moves his vote.

196: No game content.

312: Apologizes for inactivity. Doubts that Oman suspected vollkan was targetting him, and thus the list is valid.

502: Is replaced by Setael!

Setael...

503: No game content.

530: Thinks vollkan is being silly for suspecting players who vote for reasons he brings up. Thinks Para is playing a little too poorly for an "old school" player, but won't vote for him because he wants to follow up on gorckat and SPAG first.

545: Becomes furious at SPAG for hammering Para just after he said he would wait to hear from him. Votes SPAG.

556: Spots something in Hermit's analysis of SPAG that is extremely suspicious. Thinks Hermit is town, but is quite suspicious of Elias.

563: Thinks both SPAG and Elias are scum.

570: Thinks it's scummy that Elias pointed out that a vollkan NK made him look scummy.

576: Clarifies that scum are more likely to argue down points before they're even brought up.

593: Asks the mod to prod SPAG.

612: Thanks Yagami for replacing, adding that it will be next to impossible for him to convince him that SPAG wasn't mafia.

619: Explains that he gets a town read from Hermit because of his exasperated self-vote on Day 1 as well as his belief that SPAG and Elias are the two scum.

623: Feels his opinions are further justified by Yagami's posts.

630: Would rather hear his opinions of Shanba and himself from Yagami rather than a PbP on Hermit.

643: Admits that he's not entirely sure who Yagami's partner is, but is pretty sure he's scum.

646: Thinks Hermit's idea of Yagami setting up Hermit to get lynched tomorrow is an interesting theory, despite it being very WIFOM. Thinks there might still be a chance for Yagami to turn it around.

654: Requests that Yagami claim, and that no one should hammer him until he does.

661: Asks everyone not voting for Yagami to say why.

676: Thinks that Yagami would be fighting harder if he was town.

684: Does a brief re-read, and as a result votes Elias.

689: Attacks Elias fro trivializing the case against SPAG.

692: Explain to Shanba that only one mafia is left.

695: Posts a list of arguments against Elias.

718: Disagrees with Hermit's analysis of Elias' post 416.

774: Thinks Elias' reaction to ckd's mason claim was scummy.

801: Expresses skepticism over whether he's on the right track with an Elias vote, and unvotes.

809: Says he is wavering between gorckat and Elias being scum.

818: Votes gorckat in case he can't make it in time tomorrow.

820: Outlines his reasons for voting gorckat.

829: Thinks giving Nelly a pass may have been a mistake.

831: Is confused about Nelly's vote for him.

834: Is confident ckd has breadcrumbed the identity of the other mason.

VERDICT: pulsewidth was pretty lurky, but Setael's

So now I've gone over all the players... My top scum hopefuls are Elias and, after his stunning display of scummery here in on Day 4, Nelly. The problem being, I'm not confident enough with either of them to place a vote. I suppose you can write in Shanba at the bottom, who's only on my suspect list because I can't get a good read on him.

[Setael]

VERDICT: pulsewidth was pretty lurky, but Setael's

but Setael's what?

[TheHermit]

ARGH!

VERDICT: pulsewidth was pretty lurky, but Setael's been acting pretty solidly town. He was chasing after SPAG before it became in style, and I find I agree with him more often than I don't. I don't see anything really suspicious about him at all. So in my eyes he's

probably town

.

[Setael]

My initial response to your summary of me was that you are therefore Town, because I think you could've found a way to present a case on me and voted me if you were scum hoping to get a wagon going. That, along with Nelly's vote would draw either the last scum's vote or maybe even a Townie if your case was convincing enough (if that townie thinks you're the last mason, a case presented by you might be even more convincing. They might be smarter than I was yesterday though and not put so much weight on that, especially where there is no claim - it's all guesswork and process of elimination at this point).

This conclusion re: Hermit's reread of me would leave me Elias and Shanba as options for the last scum, since I'm still pretty confident Nelly is Town. I realize that this initial response could be flawed when we take WIFOM into account. Hermitscum could be attempting to get me to think exactly what I did. He may have realized how hard it would be to paint my play as scummy and decided to stick with pushing Elias. So I'm torn.

I'm also very unsure what to think about Elias. There are so many things about his play that can be seen as scummy, but when I moved my vote from him to gorckat, I was starting to think his d2 play had to be Town. I just can't see Eliasscum totally ignoring and disregarding the case on SPAG, since he'd know SPAG would come up scum and would therefore look really bad for Elias. The one thing that makes me doubt this is that he still insists that there was no case on SPAG and lynching him was just luck. I can see Eliasscum trying to explain away his stance on SPAG by criticisizing and belittling the case on SPAG.

I could be wrong about Shanba, but I haven't seen reason to suspect that role and don't want to pressure him at all.

This leaves the choice between Hermit and Elias, and I'm leaning toward Elias being the last remaining scum.