SMITE Role Madness Mafia (OVER AT LAST!)

[T S O]

I didn't make a conscious decision to choose the easiest arguments to crush and run with that, but it is possible that I subconsciously chose the easier arguments. It's possibly even probable.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'd also disagree with the second statement: what have I given Vezok the benefit of the doubt about, exactly?

also, gotta' love that you're calling for our vig based on an associative even though you said you don't think tso is scum

I don't think it's an unreasonable to assume that vezok developed a scum read on TSO when TSO started pushing him, especially considering the only reason he suspects you is because you're pushing him.

o_O

[Heartless]

I'd also disagree with the second statement: what have I given Vezok the benefit of the doubt about, exactly?

also, gotta' love that you're calling for our vig based on an associative even though you said you don't think tso is scum

I don't think it's an unreasonable to assume that vezok developed a scum read on TSO when TSO started pushing him, especially considering the only reason he suspects you is because you're pushing him.

o_O

Damn. There goes that clean game.

[T S O]

Unlucky, TTH. It was going to happen.

[Heartless]

also, gotta' love that you're calling for our vig based on an associative even though you said you don't think tso is scum

I don't think it's an unreasonable to assume that vezok developed a scum read on TSO when TSO started pushing him, especially considering the only reason he suspects you is because you're pushing him.

Actually, I do think it's pretty unreasonable.

The much more accessible theory here is us being scum is that TSO is town and we're scum whiteknighting him right now for town cred when he flips.

[Imperium]

also, gotta' love that you're calling for our vig based on an associative even though you said you don't think tso is scum

I don't think it's an unreasonable to assume that vezok developed a scum read on TSO when TSO started pushing him, especially considering the only reason he suspects you is because you're pushing him.

Actually, I do think it's pretty unreasonable.

The much more accessible theory here is us being scum is that TSO is town and we're scum whiteknighting him right now for town cred when he flips.

I'm saying that was a reasonable explanation for vezok finding TSO scum: when TSO pointed out that explanation was wrong, I shut up.

[ZeL1nK2]

<snip>

OK. Once again, I wasn't asking for your possible interpretations of why the points for pikari being town are invalid. Anyone can look at a case and say, "oh, well you might be right, but there is also an alternative explanation if he's scum!"

I'm asking for

why

you think the alternative explanation is more likely.

I really cannot understand why I'm having trouble communicating this to you. This isn't a tough concept.

I'm not asking for you to poke holes in a town case. I'm asking for you to make the case that he's scum.

Simply saying, "well, IF he happens to be scum, it was beneficial for him to do it!" does not address the likelihood of him being scum.

Why are his actions scum-motivated? Why was his claim scum-motivated?

I'm not asking what the possible scum motivations were. I'm asking why you think it's more likely to have come from scum.

Like to put this in even simpler terms, let's just say you were arguing that Snowflake-senpai was scum with PV. I'm not asking why it would make sense for him to shoot PV (town-cred), I'm asking why you think it looks like scum shooting a buddy. For example, what actions did he take that would make you think this? What words did he say that gave you this impression? And so on and so forth.

If I'm still not getting through to you, I'm just going to give up on this. I do not think it's difficult to understand what I'm asking for here.

[ZeL1nK2]

His posts, especially in ISO, are all reasoned and there's some very genuine frustration on his part that nobody seems to be evaluating the game and evaluating what he's saying.

There probably is genuine frustration. There would be genuine frustration if he's town or scum.

But saying his posts are all "reasoned" is a stretch. I would guess you haven't actually been following the conversations if you believe this to be true. It would help if you illustrate which of his points you think are "reasoned" and why you think this makes him town.

The sum total of his activities today:

- Changing his mind about mastin based on a claim that, if he was hard scum-reading mastin, makes very little sense.
- Suggesting I'm town for "derp" despite a previous hard scum read on my slot.
- Making a pikari case that has been completely and utterly shut down and shown to be unreasonable.
- Suggesting that TWIE could possibly be scum and therefore nobody should town read him. Despite never explaining why he thinks TWIE is more likely scum.

This is ignoring all the questions he's refused to answer and such. We're just looking at what you think are "reasoned" points.

[ZeL1nK2]

For anyone that doesn't understand why poking holes in a case without providing your own reasoning is useless and easy to do, give me any case you've ever argued in any game you've previously played, and regardless of how right or wrong that case is, I will poke holes in it easily.

This is a very, very simple thing to do. Anyone can suggest possible alternatives.

This is not productive to the game, however, since you're supposed to look at whether you think the alternatives are likely and, more importantly, why you think those alternatives are likely.

What TSO has been doing this game day phase, especially with regards to TWIE, is nothing more than poking holes in cases. It isn't necessarily scummy, but it's incredibly easy to do as either alignment and it's definitely not a town trait.

Part of my frustration with Heartless right now is because they're doing the exact same thing with pikari. Poking holes in the town case without pushing for reasons their point of view is more likely. Again, this isn't scummy, but it doesn't progress the game in any way.

You're supposed to argue your point of view and explain why your point of view is more likely. This is how you progress a mafia game. I feel all of this should be common sense to anyone who's played more than a handful of mafia games. Anyone can poke holes in a case if they really want to. Anyone can suggest possible scum motivation in any action if they really want to.

What you're supposed to do in a mafia game is look at actions, think about whether you think those actions are more likely to come from town or scum, and then explain why.

I feel I shouldn't really have to explain any of this, but apparently I do.

[ZeL1nK2]

Do you know why I've been asking for TSO to explain the Imperium read?

Do you know why I've been asking for TSO to explain his Heartless read progression?

Do you know why I broke down his pikari case and then asked him to explain why he thinks his interpretation is more likely?

It's because the answers to these things progress the game in some way.

TSO isn't answering these questions.

The last however many pages have all been about suggesting the points about TWIE being town may not be valid, without pushing why he thinks TWIE is more likely scum.

On top of all the

perfectly valid

points for him being scum, nothing he's doing right now is even hard to do as scum. Suggesting possible alternative explanations is incredibly easy to do - I could make a hobby of it, if I so wished. It would make me an incredibly sad and lonely person, but at least I'd have a hobby.

[ZeL1nK2]

TL;DR TSO isn't actually scum hunting in any meaningful way.

[ZeL1nK2]

Hey Drixx, let's play a game.

Let's break down TSO's pikari read.

Here he explains his pikari scum read. On the following page he follows this up with this post (suggesting that pikari lied about something).

I respond by asking what pikari lied about. He tells me to read. I tell him I have and break down why I think his pikari case is invalid rather succinctly in #7854, #7855 and #7856. Imperium follows this up by pointing out previous games in which pikari has given strong reads very early in the game in #7860 and the following posts.

What was TSO's response to all of this? Here he suggests one of the examples Imperium gave isn't valid. Yes, this is his only response to all of this. His case had been completely deconstructed and shown to be ridiculous at best and his only response is pointing out that one of the examples Imperium gave might not be valid...

Pages later in #8081 he suggests he didn't respond because the point came to a standstill, but pikari is still scum because he used his action on Pumbaa N1. This appears to be the entirety of his current push on pikari. That he used his action on scum. Circumstantial evidence akin to, "you were at the scene of the crime, therefore you did it!"

Tell me what you like about his reasoning here, Drixx.

I can do this for all the things TSO has done today. I can go in depth about all the questions TSO has refused to answer today and why they make no sense from the perspective he's town. I'm legitimately surprised anyone is suggesting thought processes like this come from a town player.

[ZeL1nK2]

I can do this for all the things TSO has done today

. I can go in depth about all the questions TSO has refused to answer today and why they make no sense from the perspective he's town. I'm legitimately surprised anyone is suggesting thought processes like this come from a town player.

The bolded should be amended to, "I can do this for all the things TSO has done today,

again

."

Because I'm really just restating all the things I've already said about him. That you and some others seem to be blind to, for whatever reason.

But hey, whatever.

[Metal Sonic]

Lol.

[Metal Sonic]

I hereby promote zelink2 to high priest of the temple.


Continue

[vezokpiraka]

We may be bitching here, but TOAS and Fpurtrouble haven't posted in 10, respectively 6 days. We need their replacements and fast.

[T S O]

Your gigantic misreps are cute, ZeL1nk.

[ZeL1nK2]

I could not roll my eyes harder than I just did.

[T S O]

- Changing his mind about mastin based on a claim that, if he was hard scum-reading mastin, makes very little sense.
- Suggesting I'm town for "derp" despite a previous hard scum read on my slot.
- Making a pikari case that has been completely and utterly shut down and shown to be unreasonable.
- Suggesting that TWIE could possibly be scum and therefore nobody should town read him. Despite never explaining why he thinks TWIE is more likely scum.

1. I have, again, no idea how it doesn't make sense to townread a townish claim.
2. This is just a lie, plain and simple.
3. It has? As far as I'm concerned I've argued townreads on him to a standstill while pointing there's likely scum in my 'hood, pointing out he's repeatedly lied about reads, pointing out he Rolestopped Cephrir n1, pointing out Cephrir above all needed Rolestop protection because of his multiple night actions...
4. I have no idea why the first sentence is an issue - pointing out legitimate reasons that TWIE could be scum is called *gasp* scumhunting! That thing you should try doing instead of deathtunnelling me. As for the second - arguing there's scum motivation as well as town motivation for TWIE's slot's actions is, by extension, giving reasons why he could be scum. You know that post you made up there? Where you talked about which motivation is more likely? No-one has been able to do that for TWIE-town yet.

[T S O]

That's one of your posts responded to - I doubt I'll respond to the rest because, like I said, I'm not in the business of defending myself this game.

[ZeL1nK2]

(1) The claim itself wasn't "townish" unless you were already reading mastin as town. Other people who read the claim were either questioning it or saying it looked suspicious, and they weren't even hard scum-reading mastin. It makes me wonder why you were pushing so hard for mastin's lynch/claim if all it took was a relatively weak claim that is probably mostly true regardless of mastin's alignment.

(2) It's not, though. You'd been scum reading my slot since D1. Only today do you turn around and call it town. Why? #7566 and #7572 indicate I'm apparently too dumb to be scum. I mean if my case on you is so bad and I'm misrepresenting what you're saying, why is it town? Why couldn't I theoretically do this as scum? Do scum just never make cases?

(3) As I pointed out in #8111, the case you wrote on pikari got absolutely demolished. Like, to the point where the exact scenario you wrote would happen if pikari was town (in #7836) actually

DID

happen in this game. Exactly what you said would happen if he was town. You'd know this if your case wasn't baloney. But you didn't even fact-check. All of your other points aren't even valid points. The only one that would actually have any merit in a case is if it's true that pikari lied about reads. What reads did he lie about? You still haven't answered this.

(4) No, it's not. It's called providing no content and pretending you are providing content. You haven't stated a reason for thinking TWIE is scum. All you've done is suggest that people town-reading him don't have rock-solid reasons for doing this. That's not scum hunting. That's poking holes in town cases while providing no scum case. You don't have a scum case on TWIE. You haven't given any reasons to believe TWIE is scum. All you've done for pages and pages is say people shouldn't be town-reading him.

If you legitimately don't understand the difference between giving reasons for someone being scum and poking holes in a town case, then might I suggest you visit this thread, to brush up on your mafia knowledge.

[ZeL1nK2]

Like, TSO.

If you say, "ZeL1nK is town because of massive amounts of derp and because he is handsome and charming!"

And someone else says, "Well, I'll give you the handsome and charming points, but massive amounts of derp don't make him town! He could still be scum derping!"

Is that someone scum hunting? Is that someone providing content? Is that someone doing anything to argue their point? What worth is that someone's opinion? That someone isn't even explaining why they think I'm scum. They're just telling you that you could be wrong. Whoop-de-doo. No case, ever, is air-tight.

Every action in a mafia game that comes from an unconfirmed player could theoretically come from town or scum. The fact that you can think of ways to poke holes in a town case does not mean you're scum hunting.

[ZeL1nK2]

I'll say the same thing I said to Heartless.

If someone were to say, "I think it's unlikely Snowflake-senpai is scum because he shot PV and I don't think that was a gambit. The way it happened came across as town-looking."

And you were to say, "No, I think he's scum. Snowflake-senpai could have been gambiting."

You're not doing anything in the way of giving reasons for thinking your stance is correct. You're just stating a possibility. That's not scum hunting. That's not even giving reasons for your read. It's like going, "well this guy could be scum because I can think of a reason he'd do something as scum, so I'm going to call him scum!" That's all your point boils down to.

You may as well say, "well X voted Y and I could see scum voting Y so X is scum!"

That's the extent of your argument.

This is basic stuff.

Go back to Road to Rome if you do not understand this.

[T S O]

Every action in a mafia game that comes from an unconfirmed player could theoretically come from town or scum. The fact that you can think of ways to poke holes in a town case does not mean you're scum hunting.

Says the person who also seems to find it incomprehensible that I could be town ...?

This is a moronic post - your attempt at posting theory is idiotic at best. You should stop.

[ZeL1nK2]

The way a mafia game works is you talk about actions and you talk about why you think an action is

more likely

to come from town or scum.

What you're doing is saying actions could come from scum. This is pointless. Any action could come from scum. You're not describing why you think the actions are more likely to come from scum. You're just suggesting it could have come from scum. No doo-doo. Do you want a medal?

So, for example, when you say, "well, Blonde could have done what he did as scum!" you're not providing any worthwhile content. At all. You're not looking at it and saying, "well, I see your points and I understand why you think his action makes more sense from the perspective he's town, but I think the scenario in which he's scum makes more sense because..." You're doing nothing like that. You're just saying he could be scum. BIG DEAL.