Conception | Design Thread

[jjh927]

You don't strictly need a VT since you have a few VT adjacent roles in there

My current thought on the second role for each scumteam is that it would be funny if it was 2 roles that could work together for pro-town benefit

For example, one is a role that checks another player to see if their action succeeded. The other is a loyal fruit vendor


In terms of your modification on 43- giving the "their alignment is uncertain" feedback is literally just a guilty if that's revealed at the start of the day along with something else. I'd steer clear from giving feedback in the situation where it fails for either possible reason

[RH9]

You don't strictly need a VT since you have a few VT adjacent roles in there

My current thought on the second role for each scumteam is that it would be funny if it was 2 roles that could work together for pro-town benefit

For example, one is a role that checks another player to see if their action succeeded. The other is a loyal fruit vendor


In terms of your modification on 43- giving the "their alignment is uncertain" feedback is literally just a guilty if that's revealed at the start of the day along with something else. I'd steer clear from giving feedback in the situation where it fails for either possible reason

Got that.
I'll have the part on the alignment being uncertain removed.
BTW, should I give scum a Disloyal Fruit Vendor?

[jjh927]

Oh right yeah, disloyal would be the way it would be a scum role

[RH9]

Oh right yeah, disloyal would be the way it would be a scum role

Got that.
I might do that.

[RH9]

Setup Variant VII

Distribution

9 Invocation - Uninformed Majority

2 Malediction - Informed Minority

2 Benediction - Informed Minority

Roles

Deification - Ascetic IC Triggered Treestump (becomes Treestump after decease)

Introversion - Recluse (Can not be added to any hoods)

Extroversion - Companion (Adds players to seperate hoods)

Sanctification - Purifier

Relation - Parity Cop

Placation - Peacekeeper

2 Devotion - Lover

Oppression - Roleblocker

Sedition - Disloyal Fruit Vendor (Sends flyers instead of fruit)

Liberation - Modified Willbooster (Protects from any number of roleblocks)

Confirmation - Disloyal Checker

Notes

• I'll use the wiki spelling for roles.
  
• I'm going to use a variation of
  43
  .
  • Each scum faction chooses a player at Night to invoke their auspices on, including their own members (though the target and actor can not be the same).
    
  • Under normal circumstances, the player will be confirmed to be unaligned with the opposing scumteam, resulting in a message like
    [Light/Dark] flee from …; They are unaligned with the [

    Benediction

    /

    Malediction

    ]
    
    
  • If both scumteams chose the same player or a member of the opposing scumteam was chosen, nothing will happen.[/b][/ooc].

[jjh927]

I'd say swap out the purifier for a non-consecutive activated bulletproof and this is reasonably balanced for a 13p multiball

[RH9]

I'd say swap out the purifier for a non-consecutive activated bulletproof and this is reasonably balanced for a 13p multiball

Got that.
I'll make the changes and the Role PMs this afternoon when I get home from school.

[jjh927]

You might want someone else to take a look to sensecheck me here as multiball is a difficult art I haven't got much experience with, but it looks to be in a good place

Passes the fun check with various interesting interactions
Don't think it's breakable by massclaim, or that anything is particularly obvious by claim
Doesn't have too many confirmable town roles- particularly given multiball means more deaths
Game won't just end in like 2 days

I think it all works

[RH9]

You might want someone else to take a look to sensecheck me here as multiball is a difficult art I haven't got much experience with, but it looks to be in a good place

Passes the fun check with various interesting interactions
Don't think it's breakable by massclaim, or that anything is particularly obvious by claim
Doesn't have too many confirmable town roles- particularly given multiball means more deaths
Game won't just end in like 2 days

I think it all works

Got that.
I'll probably bump my previous post looking for reviewers to ask if anybody wants to be a secondary reviewer.

[RH9]

Setup Variant VIII

Distribution

9 Invocation - Uninformed Majority

2 Malediction - Informed Minority

2 Benediction - Informed Minority

Roles

Deification - Ascetic IC Triggered Treestump (becomes Treestump after decease)

Introversion - Recluse (Can not be added to any hoods)

Extroversion - Companion (Adds players to seperate hoods)

Preservation - Non-Consecutive Night Activated Bulletproof

Relation - Parity Cop

Placation - Peacekeeper

2 Devotion - Lover

Oppression - Roleblocker

Sedition - Disloyal Fruit Vendor (Sends flyers instead of fruit)

Liberation - Modified Willbooster (Protects from any number of roleblocks)

Confirmation - Disloyal Checker

Notes

• I'll use the wiki spelling for roles.
  
• I'm going to use a variation of
  43
  .
  • Each scum faction chooses a player at Night to invoke their auspices on, including their own members (though the target and actor can not be the same).
    
  • Under normal circumstances, the player will be confirmed to be unaligned with the opposing scumteam, resulting in a message like
    [Light/Dark] flee from …; They are unaligned with the [

    Benediction

    /

    Malediction

    ]
    
    
  • If both scumteams chose the same player or a member of the opposing scumteam was chosen, nothing will happen.

[RH9]

I'm going to borrow some things from my last Theme game.
Here are the sample layouts of the Role PMs.

Spoiler: Invocation

Salutations, you are a manifestation of

Concept

!

Role Abilities:

• Concept (Passive)
  : As a manifestation of
  Concept
  , you….
  
• Concept (Active)
  : As a manifestation of
  Concept
  , every Night, you may attempt to….

Win Condition:

• You win if all threats to the guardians of
  Invocation
  's scroll are deceased and at least one
  Invocation
  -aligned concept remains.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Malediction

Salutations, you are a manifestation of

Concept

!

Role Abilities:

• Vacuum (Passive)
  : You share a vacuum with … located here, where you will receive knowledge of your factional ability.
  
• Concept (Passive)
  : As a manifestation of
  Concept
  , you….
  
• Concept (Active)
  : As a manifestation of
  Concept
  , every Night, you may attempt to….

Win Condition:

• You win if at least one guardian of
  Malediction
  's scroll remains and all other concepts are deceased (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by posting in the

Malediction

vacuum or by replying to this PM with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: Benediction

Salutations, you are a manifestation of

Concept

!

Role Abilities:

• Vacuum (Passive)
  : You share a vacuum with … located here, where you will receive knowledge of your factional ability.
  
• Concept (Passive)
  : As a manifestation of
  Concept
  , you….
  
• Concept (Active)
  : As a manifestation of
  Concept
  , every Night, you may attempt to….

Win Condition:

• You win if at least one guardian of
  Benediction
  's scroll remains and all other concepts are deceased (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by posting in the

Benediction

vacuum or by replying to this PM with your role and alignment.

Here is the sample layout of the Result PM.

Spoiler: Result

… → A
… → Not A
You receive no result. → No Result

[RH9]

I just realised how useless a Peacekeeper was in a game with no kills.

[MegAzumarill]

ego

[MegAzumarill]

I just realised how useless a Peacekeeper was in a game with no kills.

This setup looks really weird with no kills and very townsided.

[MegAzumarill]

If roleblocker is the only answer to it there's no response if they do die, but im not 100% sure how you are wanting things to interact so we can see.

[MegAzumarill]

I don't really see the advantage of the willbooster either.

I think the intention was the factional actions didn't replace the kills but were supplemental which isn't how it's currently being preswnted.

[MegAzumarill]

Assuming each team also has a factional kill:


Deification - Ascetic IC Triggered Treestump (becomes Treestump after decease)

Introversion - Recluse (Can not be added to any hoods) - Strict Negative ultility, could work as a gated commuter by combining with preservation as well as the recluse ability. Like the flavor this combination gives.

Extroversion - Companion (Adds players to seperate hoods)
Assume this targets 2 players and they both are neithborized to each other? Or maybe this makes a new 1 on 1 hood with them and another player.

Preservation - Non-Consecutive Night Activated Bulletproof

Relation - Parity Cop - 2 targets per night or 1 variation?

Placation - Peacekeeper - I assume this is a kill roleblocker?

2 Devotion - Lover - This has problems for balance. Mainly that town elim -> double scum kill can cause 4 dead town day 2 if a lover dies. That's 5v2v2 which, assuming perfect town actions then on becomes 3v2v1 off another scum double kill, which is not winnable as limming the 1 goes to a 2v2 loss and otherwise could lead to a 1v1v1 loss.

This makes day 1 potential Melo

Oppression - Roleblocker
Sedition - Disloyal Fruit Vendor (Sends flyers instead of fruit)


Liberation - Modified Willbooster (Protects from any number of roleblocks) - I assume this stops ascetic/peacekeeper and in my mind it would also stop my suggestion of introversion. If either member dies this becomes useless which probably should be resolved.

Confirmation - Disloyal Checker - This is literally useless. This slot will always be willboosted as long as liberation is alive so the checker action is completely worthless since you wouldn't know if it would've succeeded anyway.

[MegAzumarill]

I also am skeptical of scum even using the other nonfactional ability. It helps town which in general is the bigger threat to you than the other scumteam until endgame. Benediction is also much weaker than malediction here.

[MegAzumarill]

This theming is really great and it looks for the most part balanced except for a few issues. Most don't really have to be resolved but the setup at least to me feels more cohesive with the following changes.

Changes I would make:

For Balance (Other changes would work as well if you didn't like these, but I wouldn't approve this until these are resolved):

Add Kills for both scumteams- I assume this is intended anyway.

Lovers' combined deaths don't trigger on a nightkill or have some other compensation for the town on a nightkill (like a second elim, but hard to put that in a way that doesn't turn lovers into masons.) Alternatively just change to neighbors and optionally reflavour the roles. Lots of ways you can do this here.

For Balance (but less important):

Benediction is much weaker so this tries to rectify that in flavor.

I would trade the oppression/liberation duo out for passive roles that accomplish similar functions.
I.e.
Liberation for Conviction, being strong-willed (and being able to target through peacekeeper.)
Oppression for a role that makes all investigation actions fail on them, (mysticism? equivocation? not a fantastic parrallel)

Confirmation - This should check whether or not the target performed an action that night.

For Fun Factor (Don't need to be changed but this feels both flavorful and making the game better for players):

Introversion is the only role without any meaningful impact with their role on the setup (no one to talk to, nothing to do, no decisions to make). preservation has at least some decisions but it's not much, but I think both can be combined. So Introversion becomes a non-consecutive commuter (more flavorful that they hide away than be bulletproof). (You can also do X-shot, probably 2 or 3 if you do so.) This does leave a slot open for a town role, which I do have a suggestion for but that's more...

For my Personal taste:

Firstly disloyal really doesn't need to be on the secondary scum roles, so I'd remove it for conciseness.

For the power role Preservation leaves behind, I think another source of role blocking is in order. This leaves both Oppression and Liberation's replacements with 2 meaningful targets their role helps against (peacekeeper + this, confirmation + relation). I think a decent role for this could be Compassion, which is a combined roleblocker- bodyguard (flavorfully gives up their life to protect the other, but prevents them from leaving for their own good. This has utility against scum and for protecting town without being too overbearing. Well that's actually a lie. It's really strong combined with placation if they coordinate so I would gate it to fill X-shot, or non-consecutive, whichever wasn't chosen for Introversion.

[RH9]

I just realised how useless a Peacekeeper was in a game with no kills.

This setup looks really weird with no kills and very townsided.

I kinda removed the kill in favour of the mechanics in 43 but if it would be better, I can re-add a factional kill.

[RH9]

BTW, would giving both scum teams, factional Poisoners work?
And have the mech in 43, also serve as a Poison Doc?

[RH9]

In other words, the following.

Factional Abilities

• I'm going to use a variation of
  43
  .
  • Each scum faction chooses a player at Night to invoke their auspices on, including their own members (though the target and actor can not be the same).
    
  • Under normal circumstances, the player will be confirmed to be unaligned with the opposing scumteam and be cured from Poison, resulting in a message like
    [Light/Dark] flee from …; They are unaligned with the [

    Benediction

    /

    Malediction

    ]
    
    
  • If both scumteams chose the same player or a member of the opposing scumteam was chosen, nothing will happen.
• They also have a factional Poisoner ability.

[RH9]

Setup Variant IX

Distribution

9 Invocation - Uninformed Majority

2 Malediction - Informed Minority

2 Benediction - Informed Minority

Roles

Deification - Ascetic IC Triggered Treestump (becomes Treestump after decease)

Introversion - Non-Consecutive Night Commuter

Extroversion - Companion (Adds players to seperate hoods)

Compassion - Combined Bodyguard Roleblocker

Relation - Parity Cop

Placation - Peacekeeper

2 Affiliation - Neighbor

Equivocation - Mystic (Investigation actions fail on them)

Sedition - Fruit Vendor (Sends flyers instead of fruit)

Conviction - Unstoppable

Confirmation - Checker

Notes

• I'll use the wiki spelling for roles.
  
• I'm going to use a variation of
  43
  .
  • Each scum faction chooses a player at Night to invoke their auspices on, including their own members (though the target and actor can not be the same).
    
  • Under normal circumstances, the player will be confirmed to be unaligned with the opposing scumteam and be protected against Poison attempts that Night, resulting in a message like
    [Light/Dark] flee from …; They are unaligned with the [

    Benediction

    /

    Malediction

    ]
    
    
  • If both scumteams chose the same player or a member of the opposing scumteam was chosen, nothing will happen.
• In addition, scum will get a factional Poisoner.

[MegAzumarill]

Part of whether a poison over a kill would be ok is dependant on the variant of parity cop (2 target or one target) It would need some adjustment over a kill either way

[MegAzumarill]

Overall I don't think it's particularly fitting for the setup as is but it could be worked into it.

Think of it like this. 4/9 of town roles mess with the actions of scum. They don't need a day's delay on their (now only) source of interference on town.