Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831

[chamber]

eddie axel insanity? Feels a bit too easy.

[Axelrod]

Why don't you like Insanity? If I was going to make a "way too early to make these kind of conclusions" list, he'd be one of my top for Town.

[Axelrod]

I mean, he's even going after Eddie, who you think is scum? Are you reading him as bussing, this early?

[chamber]

You being scum is entirely dependent on Eddie being scum. I just don't like post 55 into 65 from insanity. 55 feels like she was just asking an easy question in light of the fact that she mostly has the answer for herself by 65. I Don't really buy that his one post triggered her figuring it out for herself. I don't see this as being inconsistent with her busing, but it doesn't need to be either.

[Kmd4390]

I'm kinda torn here, I feel like the confirming outside of thread thing isn't a huge deal and I was just voting Eddie to make a wagon. And Axelrod 67 definitely feels a bit like he's squeezing blood from a stone and trying to taking this super far just to have A Reason For His Vote. But even though I don't care about that initial tell I really don't like Pine's reaction here. Seems weird that he first offered the "reason" of PMing to "ask a rules question" about rule 4 in advance of anyone actually posting anything rough, then immediately get in to spats and then later say "oh, I always confirm by PM".

Also I really don't like this one

This post doesn't come from scum. Scum is worried about the PGO, not annoyed at it being misplayed.

Because for someone still nominally undecided about Cooldog's PGO claim this sure seems to be tacitly assuming it's town
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pine

Meh. I actually agree with Pine there. Rofls mindset actually seems to be someone who wanted the PGO role played better.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Chamber

– just ignore Fire’s threat as it is completely empty. There is no way he can sustain wall-style posting for any length of time. And if he starts empty spamming I’m sure Korts will take care as necessary.

--

Lots of stuff. I'm waiting for a bit to see what some people do. If I haven't done stuff by like page 10 get back to me.

So at the rate the game is progressing you want to take 4 to 5 days off without providing content?

Hell no.

Hopefully since you aren’t feeling the need to share your insights at L-2 someone else plops a vote on you to encourage you.

--

Honestly, I always confirm by PM. Most games require it, and I didn't think twice about just replying to my role PM and confirming that way. Korts didn't tell me "Hey I asked you to confirm in-thread," so I imagine he wouldn't have said so to Eddie.

For this to be a thing, there would have to be something nefarious about confirming by PM instead of the less-common (though requested) method. Sure, maybe he was active in the scum PT or something, but I wasn't and didn't get wrist-slapped for it. So it's NAI.

You didn’t specify on the very salient point that Eddie’s confirmation in thread rings false. Do you think that was also a joke because it looked nothing like one to me. Maybe Eddie is some sort of jokester … I don’t really know him from Adam.

And frankly, as that's your second bullshit push on someone in as many pages,

Dislike this since you were trying to frame Chamber expressing his reasonable (FMPOV) dislike of hidden alts as a “bullshit push”.

Also regarding 71 – can you link me to some other Town games where you give strong Town reads very early for what I would say is a NAI posting? Because there is nothing in that post that can’t be faked easily as scum.

[Pine]

I don't agree it's NAI. We can talk about it, but I'm not dumping an hour trolling through old games to prove a minor point. Your implied question is "Do you do this elsewhere?" Answer: Not often, but yes. Like kmd said, it's a mindset thing. There are better ways to play a PGO claim. I don't necessarily think claiming Doc is the right route, as that might provoke a counterclaim and backfire, but dropping heavy breadcrumbs and softing recklessly would do the trick. I don't think scum gets that crotchety about it, I think they have a debate in their PT about how to handle the claim.

*shrug* I think this s just a matter of us disagreeing on some points, MoI.

[Pine]

Also, I again don't find Eddie's confirmation to be all that remarkable. At this point, I'm literally the only player who hasn't. It's just not that significant.

[Eddie Cane]

Arrogant oldie thinking he knows better than me, complete with

bold

and

italics

. next time try underlining it I might understand better. You should check your math, though, because it's more like 1-2 days at max. I'm not going to rush my sorting because of a retarded wagon on me.

[Pine]

Arrogant oldie thinking he knows better than me, complete with

bold

and

italics

. next time try underlining it I might understand better. You should check your math, though, because it's more like 1-2 days at max. I'm not going to rush my sorting because of a retarded wagon on me.

Simmer down, Eddie.

[chamber]

2011 isn't nearly old enough to be considered an Oldie. Not a newbie at best.

@MoI do you think Pine makes those kinds of statements as scum without believing them as town? Personally I agree with you, if anything talking theory like that (best way to claim pgo) is a scum tell, you can talk about it truthfully independent of your alignment and telling the truth is great as scum. But, I don't see why scum Pine says that if Town pine doesn't believe it. Perhaps the degree of certainty is overblown (but until is follow up here and even after it I'm not actually sure how certain he is being). Is that your main issue?

[chamber]

Ah shoot I got his date wrong. That's embarrassing. I must have been looking at pine. Statement stands.

[Eddie Cane]

Arrogant oldie thinking he knows better than me, complete with

bold

and

italics

. next time try underlining it I might understand better. You should check your math, though, because it's more like 1-2 days at max. I'm not going to rush my sorting because of a retarded wagon on me.

Simmer down, Eddie.

I'm calm my man.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Eddie

– I’ve done the math already chief. Maybe check yours. We’ll be a full two days in and at most have maybe 3.5 pages of content at that point. That takes us to page 4 to 4.5. Remember - most of page 1 is confirms that don’t count as actual content. So expectations at this point are to get to page 10 will be 6 more pages thus around 4 days. And with the weekend upcoming who knows if post rate declines or not. Glad you have time to pop in and empty post.

--

Why don't you like Insanity? If I was going to make a "way too early to make these kind of conclusions" list, he'd be one of my top for Town.

Um, whut?



--

@MoI do you think Pine makes those kinds of statements as scum without believing them as town? Personally I agree with you, if anything talking theory like that (best way to claim pgo) is a scum tell, you can talk about it truthfully independent of your alignment and telling the truth is great as scum. But, I don't see why scum Pine says that if Town pine doesn't believe it. Perhaps the degree of certainty is overblown (but until is follow up here and even after it I'm not actually sure how certain he is being). Is that your main issue?

Yeah the issue I have is the definitive “That’s Town” tone to that post. I don’t recall Pine ever being that definitive on what I think is really … a friendly opening post. Which is why I asked. It has been awhile since we’ve started a game together (my second hiatus) and wanted to see maybe if he had developed that tendency as a player. And full disclosure I’m not a huge Townhunter myself, especially this early, so that may be coloring my perception.

[Eddie Cane]

Sigh.

[Pine]

MoI, I'm not that good a scumhunter, but Townhunting I can usually do pretty effectively.

[chamber]

I'd be pretty surprised if that was anything other than a bias built from the fact that the base rate of finding town is ~75% compared to ~25% for scum. Of course you'll be right more often when declaring town.

[Pine]

Bite me.

[Kison]

I'm with Pine that the wagon on Eddie over the confirmation thing is silly.

Don't like Axel's Pine vote or post 67. Looks like he's trying way too hard to explain it away.

UNVOTE: Old Man
VOTE: Axelrod

Sup. Who else besides Pine & Eddie do you not like?

[Old Man]

VOTE: Old Man

Look at that avatar and try to tell me it's not scum.

I strongly agree with this reasoning, this avatar is indeed scum. Kison is town for this.

VOTE: Old Man

On a more serious note, I genuinely am liking this post; there are a few reasons why I picked this avatar, one of which was to garner reactions and as a sort of social experiment to hypothesize if it would result in a policy lynch, or, at the least, a couple of RVS votes. And, those votes would more likely than not come from town, under the theory that scum would not blatantly vote for another player with such obviously flimsy reasoning, in order to keep up some facade of self-preservation.

VOTE: Old Man

Look at that avatar and try to tell me it's not scum.

If anything he is scum for trying to sneak into a Geriatric game as a hidden alt.

Ah, I wish to apologize for this. This was an entirely unintended consequence of forgetting the credentials that I had used to log onto the site, with my last login a couple of years prior, and with ten or so email addresses under my belt the "Forgot your Password" function couldn't really help me. One of our friendly listmods has come forward and reached out to me to help me secure my previous account, and I am grateful. This is a small issue that could be simply resolved by asking Kison for help who is in this very game, so it would not be too much of a worry for me.

With that said, since it has come to this, it would indeed make for an interesting experiment for me to proceed with this game as a hidden alt; it would certainly be a refreshing experience to play without the latent burden of proficiency. As a result, I do kindly request for the respect of my choice; that I will proceed with playing this game under the veil of a hidden alt, and it would be frowned upon to use out-of-game means to pry further, as it would give one an unbalanced advantage in the game, although, it would be fair if my identity was revealed through in-game means or somewhat else.

The mod already acknowledged that you had confirmed. Why confirm in-thread now?

Vote: Eddie Cane

The speed of which this wagon is constructed is rather concerning. How is it nothing more than a thinly veiled policy lynch? By my count, five out of eight votes needed to lynch appeared on a newbie player within a lightning-short span of time. I do not support this, and, in fact believe that such a rapid-forming wagon must be scum-driven, especially and most certainly if Eddie Cane's alignment is revealed to be town at some point in the future.

Vote:Old Man

My townread given to Kison does not extend to chamber for the fact that chamber is second to hop onto a bandwagon, as well as the fact that it is a naked vote here.

I'm on a "respect people and don't be toxic" kick. I was inquiring as to how proactive Korts would be in enforcing the relevant rule.

I'm thankful for the fact that Pine is standing up for me here, and his chivalry is something to be applauded, but I'd like to note the fact here that his statements are out-of-game related and completely non-alignment-indicative, which means, this can possibly come from scum.

If anything you're the one that initiated it as a serious point. I read MoI as half joking. I'm just using it as an opportunity to communicate my frustration with their existence to Old Man. I nearly replaced out when I saw they had joined. I'm frankly still somewhat on the fence over it.

I don't like the fact that chamber retroactively justifies his vote on me, which, should technically be an extension of RVS, as having serious substantiation, as well as the red flags that 1. He is hopping onto a bandwagon made by Kison, and 2. His reasoning was lifted off MoI's which came earlier and I had noted and discussed above. I dislike the fact that chamber failed to justify or communicate the above in the same post as his initial vote, and instead had to be prompted by Pine and his communication with MoI instead of coming up with the reasoning or original basis for the read himself. If he was so annoyed over the fact that I am playing the game as a hidden alt, I would have expected, or perhaps, preferred it if he had communicated it directly or earlier, instead of taking a passive stance and raising the issue only after it has been discussed, almost as if it is something thought out after the fact.

I read MoI as half joking.

You read correctly. I’ve mostly made peace with people’s need to hid behind alts for whatever reasons (none of which I get) and that jerks I try to avoid in games will use alts to circumvent that.

That in itself is fair, and I too read it as such, but I cannot help but be further concerned by chamber's reaction to this issue here. Being more frustrated about the fact that I am using an alt yet being slow to raise the issue beyond someone who was "joking" pretty much comes across to me as fake.

With that aside, I'm townreading MoI here thanks to his respectable analysis of the game up till this point.

Yeah maybe he's joking and all about it not being RVS ... still doesn't explain why he confirmed in thread. Given you confirmed via PM I'd have thought that would have resonated with you as strange since you didn't confirm after Day 1 started.

I don't find anything unusual about not confirming in-thread. It's generally much more convenient and faster to confirm through PM, by clicking the reply button and getting on with life. Furthermore, I am pretty sure Eddie Cane was being spiteful about the fact that multiple votes quickly formed on him for the trivial matter of not following the instructions in the PM and failing to confirm in-thread. I don't find the vote on KMD particularly interesting, KMD being the fourth bandwagon vote and his position on the wagon seems rather suspect to me as well. If Eddie Cane and KMD have some history with each other, it would form sufficient basis for an early vote.

I find your reaction to your wagon to be a little off.

Considering his entire response consisted of...

revelation: old people dont understand jokes.

...which is essentially acknowledging it as a joke, I find YOUR response to be a bit off. And frankly, as that's your second bullshit push on someone in as many pages,

VOTE: Chamber

Not RVS. Not a joke.

I agree here with Pine.

Breaking up this post into another one for brevity.

[chamber]

I don't like the fact that chamber retroactively justifies his vote on me, which, should technically be an extension of RVS, as having serious substantiation, as well as the red flags that 1. He is hopping onto a bandwagon made by Kison, and 2. His reasoning was lifted off MoI's which came earlier and I had noted and discussed above. I dislike the fact that chamber failed to justify or communicate the above in the same post as his initial vote, and instead had to be prompted by Pine and his communication with MoI instead of coming up with the reasoning or original basis for the read himself. If he was so annoyed over the fact that I am playing the game as a hidden alt, I would have expected, or perhaps, preferred it if he had communicated it directly or earlier, instead of taking a passive stance and raising the issue only after it has been discussed, almost as if it is something thought out after the fact.

It was never meant as a retroactive justification for my vote. My frustration with you was completely distinct from the vote. My vote for you was entirely RVS. I've already said as much.

[Old Man]

I don't think I've pushed anyone yet? If you mean Old Man, my vote on him is entirely RVS. If you mean Magna, I still find it off that he immediately took CoolDog at face value. I still don't believe CoolDog. But I wouldn't call that a push. Asking probing questions is just my way of engaging with the game. I don't expect you to find value in every question I ask. I'm not asking them for your sake. I'm asking them for mine.

With that said, joking in response to his wagon, and then stating it was a joke is exactly what I thought was off? I don't understand how your post meaningfully engages with mine.

Perhaps more importantly though, this is the 2nd time someone has engaged with something I've directed at someone else. Please stop doing that.

Color me unimpressed but I haven't really felt that your questions so far have been really probing or in actuality very valuable. I remember your annoyance about the issue of hidden alts, which have not been really game related and in fact gives you an out to discuss non-game relevant and out-of-game topics, avoiding pertinent in-game scumhunting and also somehow allows you to call them "probing" and "engaging" when they are anything but. I haven't seen you engage with Eddie Cane or ask them a single meaningful question to determine their alignment, instead just a value judgement of "reaction being off" which is entirely vague and almost prejudicial when they already have a large number of votes for them for what appears to be an insignificant RVS reason. The fact that you are pushing him, almost seriously, without any convincing cause to do so doesn't sit well with me. How exactly do you expect someone to respond to you when you tell them, "your posting looks off"? I don't see how there can be a meaningful rebuttal or engagement considering how vague the accusation is.

But also, you did just not respond to the majority of my post. What push were you talking about from the previous page? How is your point about his thing only being a joke a meaningful response?

I was referring to your push against Old Man and the new one on Eddie (which is separate from the old push on Eddie, which was also bullshit.)

It is very strange to be defending people in a game of Mafia on principle when I have no fucking idea if they're worth the trouble.

I'm glad that someone else is seeing the same things that I'm seeing, and in fact earlier than me and also raising the issue early to promote further discussion. I like this. It's game-advancing and meaningful.

Again, although I do

like

the fact that Pine is sitting on the right side of things here, I am still concerned with the fact that I cannot find a smoking-gun tell or some form of confirmation that what he has posted thus far can only come from town -- I need to remind myself that his behavior can be faked, despite the fact that I

want

him to be town because

this

is the epitome of encourageable, sportsmanlike behavior. Fortunately, it's still early in the game, and I can wait to see what I am hoping to see for Pine. Long story short, good vibes here.

Something can be directed towards someone without it being a question.

Vote: Eddie Cane

Yeah, no.

This is bullshit.

VOTE: chamber

It'd be acceptable if you came up with the wagons or pushes yourself, it shows justification and initiative, but it's clear as day that that you are finding excuses to sheep wagons with the use of flimsily justified and fabricated reasoning.

Looking like we should lynch Eddie Cane, Pine, and Axelrod.

I also don't believe CooLDoG's claim, but I'm not terribly interested in the topic right now.

Why? Please explain.

I'm not replying to #51 if that's what you're waiting for Chamber. If you just meant 57 in general, nvm.

Your posts have been this and making RVS jokes.

Do you have an opinion on anything that has happened? Eg, Chamber v Pine?

Do

you

have an opinion? Your posts aren't much better.

So my plan for this game is to make geriatric games a living nightmare by applying my standard spamposting in a format that annoys everyone.

This will be my last post before I make extremely long mastina like wall posts.

Policy lynch me now or forever be annoyed.

You have been warned

Can you please not do this?

eddie axel insanity? Feels a bit too easy.

Do you have any justification for

any

of those reads? What makes your reads different from being copied off a Random Number Generator consisting of three of the names in this game? It looks to me that you are expecting us to come up with the reasons for you, which, after reviewing your pattern of behavior in this game, which you will then proceed to use, copy, and lift as your own.

2011 isn't nearly old enough to be considered an Oldie. Not a newbie at best.

@MoI do you think Pine makes those kinds of statements as scum without believing them as town? Personally I agree with you, if anything talking theory like that (best way to claim pgo) is a scum tell, you can talk about it truthfully independent of your alignment and telling the truth is great as scum. But, I don't see why scum Pine says that if Town pine doesn't believe it. Perhaps the degree of certainty is overblown (but until is follow up here and even after it I'm not actually sure how certain he is being). Is that your main issue?

Ah shoot I got his date wrong. That's embarrassing. I must have been looking at pine. Statement stands.

Instead of making elitist and pedantic posts like these, which, in this game happen to be limited, you could actually ask Eddie Cane, you know, meaningful questions, to determine if he is really town or scum? You know? Engaging him. And stuff. But you just have to comment and brag about your 2005 join date. Really spectacular, I know.

[Old Man]

I don't like the fact that chamber retroactively justifies his vote on me, which, should technically be an extension of RVS, as having serious substantiation, as well as the red flags that 1. He is hopping onto a bandwagon made by Kison, and 2. His reasoning was lifted off MoI's which came earlier and I had noted and discussed above. I dislike the fact that chamber failed to justify or communicate the above in the same post as his initial vote, and instead had to be prompted by Pine and his communication with MoI instead of coming up with the reasoning or original basis for the read himself. If he was so annoyed over the fact that I am playing the game as a hidden alt, I would have expected, or perhaps, preferred it if he had communicated it directly or earlier, instead of taking a passive stance and raising the issue only after it has been discussed, almost as if it is something thought out after the fact.

It was never meant as a retroactive justification for my vote. My frustration with you was completely distinct from the vote. My vote for you was entirely RVS. I've already said as much.

Votes in RVS are never really random. They are influenced by some form of bias one way or another.

Admitting your vote is entirely RVS makes it even worse, pointing to the fact your vote was entirely blindly bandwagon-driven, and especially given the fact that Kison at least justified his very own RVS vote earlier.

[Old Man]

To clarify my stance on Pine: I

want

Pine to be town here, but all my professional mafia policies force me to keep Pine as a nullread for now.

[Tywin Lannister]

Just caught up. I agree with Pine, Kison, whoever else in thinking the confirmation controversy is pointless. Honestly, a SR based off of that reminds me more of Epicmafia-type garbage than something I'd expect from MS outside of newbie queue. I also dont like how nearly everyone latched onto it as if it was some amazing revelation. That's suspect on D1, especially when the first wagon or two is usually on town. When nearly everyone agrees, then it means scum do as well. I don't particularly like Eddie's attitude (Pine's is ok), but not confirming in-thread is NAI for me. Games don't require everyone to confirm before they start, just the majority. I've played plenty of games where it started before I saw the PM to confirm, and it wasn't an issue? How is that AI?

That said, I think the hard push on Pine and/or Eddie over the confirmation thing is pretty bad, yet some players went with it hard, as if they were looking for something to sheep. Its possible one or both of them are scum, but why would anyone be so sure it's not easy lynchbait? Why would anyone not question it when half the playerbase sheeped it instantly? I honestly don't believe anyone genuinely believes in the confirm thing, so it looks like an excuse to form fake reads.

I don't know metas, but chamber going so hard off of it and claiming to have solved the game on page 4 pings me. He's accused multiple people so far though, which I don't think scum would be doing on D1. Thing is, those accusations seem to be based 100% on either Eddie or Pine (both?) being scum. I haven't seen any posted content that screams scum to me from either one, and hardpushing with little to no second-guessing pings me. He's not a hard SR mostly due to his playstyle. I don't really see scum pushing that hard on D1, but it does happen with a few players. Titus comes to mind.

Axelrod has been doing the same thing, but has been accusing far fewer players (none outside of Eddie? Pine?), and has not really contributed anything new to the argument, which chamber has done. Its almost entirely sheeping, which pings the hell out of me. They're not alone in doing it by any means, but they're also not giving any other thoughts. They've gone entirely for the easy lynchbait wagon with no looking elsewhere.

The player that takes the scummy cake for me though is petroloumjelly, post 64.

Looking like we should lynch Eddie Cane, Pine, and Axelrod.

I also don't believe CooLDoG's claim, but I'm not terribly interested in the topic right now.

Blatant sheeping with no original content/thoughts
String of future lynches
Not questioning anyone
Shade on potential problem PR

VOTE: petroleumjelly

Chamber: Do you SR anyone not based entirely around Pine/Eddie? Why or why not? What makes you so sure not confirming in-thread is a scum tell, and what do you dislike about Pine/Eddie's actual content? What do you see in what they've actually posted that pings you?

Axelrod: What pings you so much about Eddie's kmd vote joke thing? It looked like a normal rvs vote to me, so I'm not following your confusion over it, let alone the SR from it (his attitude sucks though). What else has Eddie done that pings you? Do you think everyone that is on his wagon are town? Do you agree that youre sheeping other's arguments against Eddie (I haven't seen you mention Pine as scum)?

Petroleumjelly: Do you have any content to add to the game besides bad sheeping? Why do you SR Eddie, Pine, and Axelrod? Do you think theyre all scum partners, or do you have independent reads? Do you have any thoughts on any other players in this game?