Standardized Rules and Role PMs (Open Games)

[xyzzy]

An interesting dilemma came up last night in scumchat:

We were playing a 5 player multi-life game - each player had a queue of 3 roles, and they only knew one at a time.

They decided to just have all scum claim immediately, and to kill off scum until they ended up with a town role, then once everyone was a townie, just refuse to lynch.

I reminded them that they needed to eliminate all scum roles - or that all townies needed to be eliminated. In the case of a doc on their second life and a vig on their third with 2 scum on their 3rd left, the town could easily win; other similar situations could all come up, and needed to be considered.

[Seol]

Sure, but except for BP Townies, we're talking about Mutually Assured Destruction, which is a Lose-Lose situation for pretty much anybody but a SK (who sometimes have a supremacy clause/everybody's dead clause in their WC). I should have been a bit more specific, in that I was talking about Living Ties.

Terminology sucks...

Well, roleblockers can cause living ties.

Anyway, in most games, I've considered "everyone dies" to be a tie, not a loss, and if I don't think I can win I'll play for an everyone dies tie. I'm kind of surprised you think that that an "everyone dies" tie is somehow not as good as a "living" tie; I've never thought of it that way.

I've always considered a "living" tie, ie a stalemate where people are alive but town's not dying, as a town win (flavourfully, town are still alive and the Mafia

threat

is gone), and a mutually assured destruction as a loss for everyone.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

But the Town still has to be constantly vigilant. Also, pretty much the entire town is dead. You just have the one dude left who constantly has to watch out or the evil dude gets him. Tie makes sense, flavourfully.

[YYCguy]

Ahh .. but if you're constantly living in fear, doesn't that mean they've already won?

[mith]

I figure, if you know the other guy is evil, are you really going to stick around and live with him for the rest of your life? No. Unless you're just into that sort of thing. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

So, townie manages to survive, but doesn't get justice for his dead neighbors. Mafia manages to survive and go bother another town, but doesn't get that pesky townie he so badly wanted to kill. Some good and bad for both, so tie.

[Seol]

But the Town still has to be constantly vigilant.

Seems a fair trade for remaining alive. Mafia has failed to take over the town. The town has survived and neutralised the threat. Town has achieved what they want, Mafia hasn't.

]Also, pretty much the entire town is dead. You just have the one dude left who constantly has to watch out or the evil dude gets him.

I've never seen anyone object to a one-townie-survives, everyone-else-dead town victory on that basis. What's the difference?

Tie makes sense, flavourfully.

We'll agree to disagree, I think.

[Mr. Flay]

But the Town still has to be constantly vigilant.

Seems a fair trade for remaining alive. Mafia has failed to take over the town. The town has survived and neutralised the threat. Town has achieved what they want, Mafia hasn't.

Depends on who moves away, doesn't it?

[Seol]

But the Town still has to be constantly vigilant.

Seems a fair trade for remaining alive. Mafia has failed to take over the town. The town has survived and neutralised the threat. Town has achieved what they want, Mafia hasn't.

Depends on who moves away, doesn't it?

Town doesn't need to move away, and really, that's all town wanted in the first place - to be able to live in peace. It might take some work to maintain that peace, but maintained it is.

[mith]

We haven't really established the motivation for the Mafia wanting to kill everyone in the first place. It could just be that they wanted to kill the random NPC victim/night 1 victim, and then the town got all mobbish on them and they had to take them out to survive.

So it could be that all the Mafia wanted was survival, while the town wanted justice (rather than the Mafia wanting everyone dead and the town wanting to survive).

So flavor-wise, I could go either way. Given that, gameplay-wise it makes more sense to call it a tie.

[Kelly Chen]

Well I think usually the town is told that they win when all threats to them are eliminated. Maybe they win on a technicality if a threat technically ceases to be a threat.

I think town winning with a single roleblocker and a single goon is... Uh, lame. How would the mod even explain why the town won?

[mith]

The Mafia caught Syphilis and died?

[Kelly Chen]

I guess I think that would be more satisfying if there were a chance of them catching syphilis and dying prior to endgame.

[Oman]

...Reminder...never play a game that Kelly mods.


Ever!

They would be some weird night choices.

[Yosarian2]

Sure, but except for BP Townies, we're talking about Mutually Assured Destruction, which is a Lose-Lose situation for pretty much anybody but a SK (who sometimes have a supremacy clause/everybody's dead clause in their WC). I should have been a bit more specific, in that I was talking about Living Ties.

Terminology sucks...

Well, roleblockers can cause living ties.

Anyway, in most games, I've considered "everyone dies" to be a tie, not a loss, and if I don't think I can win I'll play for an everyone dies tie. I'm kind of surprised you think that that an "everyone dies" tie is somehow not as good as a "living" tie; I've never thought of it that way.

I've always considered a "living" tie, ie a stalemate where people are alive but town's not dying, as a town win (flavourfully, town are still alive and the Mafia

threat

is gone), and a mutually assured destruction as a loss for everyone.

Eh...basically, both sides usually have 2 win condiitons; 1. Destroy all other factions, and 2. Have at least one member of your group still alive at the end of the game. In a living tie, both sides suceed at #2 and fail at #1, in a "everyone dies" tie, both sides suceed at #1 and fail at #2. So I consider them both equal ties .

[Oman]

(All the cool kids were doing it.)

[Simenon]

Do we still have this? We could use it.

[Oman]

Is it possible to get one of the first posts or possibly a stickied thread with a list of these agreed ones?

[Simenon]

Is it possible to get one of the first posts or possibly a stickied thread with a list of these agreed ones?

Pretty please?

[Oman]

YUS!

[kuribo]

I think "total victory -- or nothing can prevent same" is the only good answer. the "50% mafia" or ">50% mafia" rules are really an attempt to encapsulate "nothing can prevent same" in numbers.

I agree. >50% mafia doesn't take into account Vigs & SKs. The Mafia win condition should be:

You win when Mafia members are the only survivors, or when nothing can prevent the same.

But do you think the mafia

should

win if it's 2 mafia against a vig and doc only going into Day?

But then it just becomes a game of who can get to the site and post first.

[Mr. Flay]

My take on standardized roles for F11 are as follows:

Of course, this would all be a lot easier if you weren't so sure that some of you haddunit. Two of you, in fact, though you're not sure who else is what. Here's the possibilities:

Mafia:

You are a

Mafia Roleblocker

, along with your partner _________ (who is simply a Goon). Your goal is to eliminate the pro-town players so that only your side remains; you win if this happens, even if you personally are dead. During the Day, try to blend in with the rest of the players, and get someone lynched.

You may talk with your partner at Night, and send me a choice via PM of who you would like to kill/roleblock (your team can do both so long as you live).

Note: You may talk with your partner privately during confirmations to plan strategy, but no night actions will take place until Night One.

AND

You are a

Mafia Goon

, along with your partner _________ (who is a pro-Mafia Roleblocker). Your goal is to eliminate the pro-town players so that only your side remains; you win if this happens, even if you personally are dead. During the Day, try to blend in with the rest of the players, and get someone lynched.

You may talk with your partner at Night, and send me a choice via PM of who you would like to kill (if your partner also lives, they can send in a separate choice to roleblock someone).

Note: You may talk with your partner privately during confirmations to plan strategy, but no night actions will take place until Night One.

OR

You are a

Mafia Goon

, along with your partner _________. Your goal is to eliminate the pro-town players so that only your side remains; you win if this happens, even if you personally are dead. During the Day, try to blend in with the rest of the players, and get someone lynched.

You may talk with your partner when it is not Day, and send me a choice via PM of who you wish to kill.

Note: You may talk with your partner privately during confirmations to plan strategy, but no kills will happen until Night One.

Town:

You are the

Doctor

, and you can protect people from harm. Each Night, you may send me a choice via PM of who to protect; if they come under attack by the Mafia, they will live. You win if the scum are eliminated (even if you are dead by that time), so choose wisely at Night, and try to lynch correctly during the Day.

Note: Doctors are 100% effective in Newbie Games (the person you protect will never die on the night they are protected, unless you are roleblocked). You may not protect yourself.

You are the

Cop

, and you can tell good from bad. Each Night, you may send a player's name to me; I will let you know if your investigation shows that they are Mafia or Town. You win if the scum are eliminated (even if you are dead by that time), so choose wisely at Night, and lynch well during the Day.

Note: Cops always get a correct result in Newbie Games (no sanity issues), unless you are roleblocked. You cannot investigate yourself.

You are a

Townie

, and you've got no special powers at Night. No investigations, no protection, no gun to shoot people. Your only powers are the ability to post, vote, and think. You win if the scum are eliminated (even if you are dead by that time), so try to lynch well!

Pick apart, please.

[Ether]

These PMs imply that "Mafia Goon" and "Mafia" are revealed as different roles on death. Is this the case?

[Mr. Flay]

Mmmm, good catch. I am not planning on revealing them differently, no; both should be Mafia Goon, in that case.

::edit:: Also added a clarification on people winning even if they are dead, which doesn't come up very often, but every bit helps...

[Xect]

Just curious. Why the note preventing the cop from investigating himself? If his sanity is ensured, why would he want to?

[Elmo]

You are a

Mafia Goon

, along with your partner _________ (who is also a Mafia Goon).

Imo.

Also, for power roles, tell them what happens if they get roleblocked. For doc, something like "If you are roleblocked, you won't know about it, but your protection that night won't work." and for the cop "if you are roleblocked, you will only be told that you did not receive a result that night" or whatever the mod actually does. Just a thought; intuitively, people would expect to be told if they were being blocked, seeing the, uh, mechanism involved in such.