Mini 1171: BSG Mafia - over - Were the humans saved?

[Tanarin]

@Ricardo: Only reason why I was looking for bussing was the fact that Arch was so blatant in nature. Scum had no time in my opinion to TRY and avoid the lynch. Also, as of this post I have seen DTM on twice and have yet to even see a hi out of him. I also saw him on right after reya posted so I KNOW he saw the first post.

FoS: DTM for lurking

[DTMaster]

Finally I can post.

@Quickhammer
1. Normally I normally would expect to face quick hammers on town and we can fish out scum from the results (aka the wagon would be scum derived and we could find scum). x.x This is a first. First look tells me that the rapid hammering at the end doesn't smell like scum misfire on a bus. It's a rapid wagon, and it's only the start of D1. If you're looking for busses I would expect scum to be early on. Around the time Substrike/Volkan voted in succession on Acro any bussing attempts via votes would have treaded with caution.

I'm willing to call Bob townie for the hammer since I'd expect scum to be more cautious about the votes around the time. I'd look early on on Cam, Zang, ooba. Except Ooba is town. So that leaves Cam

@Nameclaim
1. I'm a firm believer that flavour =/= catching scum. So name claiming to me is meh. Here's why and a few of these have been addressed.
a. Many flavour based games have fake claims given to scum.
b. Many flavour based games don't follow flavour. E.g. I ran a game like that where various heros were randomly chosen as scum and various bosses were town, even though flavour arguments could be used to say: XX is scummy since he's a villian in the game. Look up Kingdom of Loathing Mafia. Another good example is Harry Potter Mafia where Harry, Ron and Heromine were a scum team with Voldemort.
c. I just don't see how names = alignment. :V. Especially in this series since some of the sixes are good and some of them aren't. But Acro flipped scum. Read up on Head-Six and Caprica-Six. The series is basically a set of grey characters if you do know them.

I'm reading the arguments for, and I could see it. But we'd have to be lucky the scum weren't given fake claims. Or that their characters are all evil. That's the only good thing about locking claims in. So I'm just indifferent to flavour claiming. We basically play a game of what ifs and "how do we out guess the mod" to make use of people's names to determine alignment.

2. However despite all of this, Acro said he didn't want a name claim and flipped scum. I don't know but some mods do follow flavour. My number 1 argument always tells me be critical for everything. This tells me, Acro might have slipped some info and scum doesn't have fake claims.

@Wagon analysis on Cam/Zang
1. I'm reading the debate and out of all the arguments, the one that's most out of place is Zang. I'm feeling a bit iffy about this since early game discussion and votes don't match often, since you're basically latching on anything that pops up as a starting point. I'm just very paranoid about the attack on Camn about her arguments while being the first vote on Acro. I feel like there's something here, but logic tells me that this is more early Day 1 play rather then Zang doing bussing.

2. I actually feel that Cam's point was the leap from RVS to discussion. To me that reads as townie.

@Vale
1. The vote on Bob and the attack on Acro reads more as typical bussing. This to me looks scummy from the flip.

@Sir Ricardo
1. Ooba is dead, but I wanted to address the point you wanted to talk to him about. Locking people into specific names =/= locking people into a role claim. I outlined why from my own modding preference above. If we were to make this judgment call we'd need to do a modding meta check on Dekes to see if he does follow flavour patterns in his theme games.

I agree though that if someone is locked into a full claim, you can use that for your advantage (e.g. replacements, etc).

2. Hey you caught the line Acro posted.

@Tan
1. Lol. Well sorry for being offsite till Friday. Go check my posts and you'd see I was kinda busy IRL. The game started on midday Wednesday half way down on page 1 and went into night the same day.

2. :S. Why would town fake claim their names. I'm sorry but you're playing like Gorrad from Kingdom Hearts Mafia. All flavour, no actual mafia playing. He flipped scum. He tried using a Riku claim and attempted to twist the alignment of the slot of Riku because he was both a villian and a hero in the games to get town to lynch him. But Riku was DGB and was town tracker and won the game for us.

Names =/= roles. Hell I watched the series and Starbuck could be any number of roles which would match her flavour (like a vig, or a commuter, etc) but flipped something else. There's no sense to fake claim your name. I could understand it if you're faking your roleclaim, but your name? You're not making sense.

3. Your focus on Substrike's unvote/vote is pretty bad. I don't get it. You agree about the attacks on Acro so you voted him. Substrike attacked Acro. You both came to the agreement that Acro was scummy. But substrike took it further and commented that he thought Cam was scummy for using a weak attack. It feels like you're just attacking at something insignificant. You know Substrike at this point feels Cam is scummy. And Acro is scummier to warrant having the final vote. But you focus on semantics. To me this feels like you're deflecting from commenting on actual scum reads. It's fluffy. Saying that Camn should have gotten just a FOS instead of a vote reads as if you're just producing noise for the sake of it.

You don't advance his arguments about the name claim. You don't even comment on his reads. This to me is scummy.

@Zang
1. Now I'm all confused because your point about the name claim that was brought up by SirRicardo reads as a townie looking at the advantages critically.

@Bob
1. I'm sorry but I was curious. Pre-hammer why you called Acro the easy target. Was Acro pre-flip townie? Scummy? Or did you just have a null read on him. I want to follow your train of thought here since I don't get this argument.

I have too many weak reads since all I can do at the moment is read into, and super analyze the posts so far. Which is dangerous. By association I'm going to go with

Vote Valern

It fits the bussing pattern. Attack, without voting on the quick hammer. I'd expect scum to distance themselves, but since the nature of the quick votes they would be cautious about it.

[DTMaster]

I'm sorry Tan. I was busy posting a complete read because I found out the day just started. Enjoy my wall.

[DTMaster]

I forgot the sarcasm tags :V. Though the above should be read in such a tone.

[camn]

Ha!
I told you guys dicerolls are scummy.

I gotta look back at the wagon.. but I am kind of inclined to agree with AGM about the hammer. It seems kind of accidental, and no scum

accidentally

hammers thier partner on

page 3

. Maybe they accidentally hammer TOWN, but not their partner. As to where the scum are? meh. anywhere but the hammer, methinks.

l also agree with Ricardo that Day1 was the BEST time for nameclaims. .. right now? I love BSG, and I love flavorhunting... but I can take it or leave it at this time. the reason I brought it up was because I have caught scum on botched claims in themes before.. and because LAST bsg themed game there was a couple(?) flavor-cop type roles. . . so we ended up talking flavor a lot. Who knows if that is the case here. I thought it would help us break the RVS, which it did.

Due to the quickness of Day 1, I can't quite tell you all who the other scum are.. but I will work on it. Anybody clever with these 13p setups? Is it still generally 3 scum in a mini? I see only one kill... and the town Lover can swing against the town... so maybe yes?

Also. Re: Ricardo. I am a little uncomfortable with you withholding your hydra-makeup.
1. What do you have to hide? it tingles at me.
2. I signed up for a game where everyone has played at least 1 non-newbie. To me that is both for experience, and for meta. I don't search meta much, but some people do, and you are deliberately hiding yours. DO not like.
It seems like if you wanted to be anonymous, you should have had to start with a newbie-open game like everyone else. But meh.

more later. I need coffee.

[camn]

Actually... let me throw this up before my day sweeps me away..

VOTE : HELLLOOONEWMAN

I think scum-acro's 'random' vote was not so random.
I also just Iso'd newman... this is how it looks to me:

/newman catches a vote.
/I chainsaw newman on diceroll grounds
newman makes joke, says nothing.
newman posts lol, says nothing.
/newmans partner is quicklynched, newman stares with mouth agape.
newman CONGRATULATES US, says nothing.
newman sheeps Zang.

Is that about right?

[HellloooNewman]

@Sir Ricardo: I too am leary of the fact that you won't let us know who you are. Meta is an important part of the game. Do you have discernable "town tells", or "scum tells" that you are trying to hide?

@camn: Sorry for not adding too much to the game so far. You guys quick lynched while I was offline. When today started, I was at work, and couldn't write much more than what I did.

Re: Scum on Acro's wagon. Judging by the speed that the lynch happened, it is unlikely (in my mind) that any more than 1 scummer made it on. That would likely be one of the first 3 votes (again, in my mind). That means I am looking at Camn, Zang and Ooba. Following that train of thought, the following players were NOT on the wagon. Sir Ricardo Montalbán, DTMaster, HellloooNewman, Reya Cookiebringer. I know that I'm town, so that leaves the three in my crosshairs.

Ooba is dead. So far, I have town reads on Ricardo (even though I hate that he won't reveal his hydra) and Camn.

FOS Scum Team - DTMaster, Zang and Reya

.

Other than that, nothing else is standing out to me at the moment. The talk just seems to be your basic early game talk, which isn't too productive until later.

[bobsnox]

OK, what about the rest of the names I listed? What is your opinion on them?

And you say camn is town off of post #27. What changed your mind? Also, what WAS giving you scum vibes on him in the first place?

Give me a min (or a couple hours...about to leave). Camn's reaction to the diceroll method of RVS seemed overly serious and fabricated. But I don't think camn is scum based on her acro vote. Her scumminess was only scummy before it caught scum, if that makes sense. I don't think it was a bus because of the way she voted acro.

@Bob
1. I'm sorry but I was curious. Pre-hammer why you called Acro the easy target. Was Acro pre-flip townie? Scummy? Or did you just have a null read on him. I want to follow your train of thought here since I don't get this argument.

I had a null read on acro at that point. I just thought camn was making a ridiculous accusation that acro was scum for the RVS vote. I thought she seemed like opportunistic scum.

[Tanarin]

Hmm, Sounds about right camn.

@DTM: Glad you could make it. As for your points on me.

1)OK, understood. My fault for not looking.

2) I have a good reason as to why town would want to fake claim their name. In fact I have a reason to think that this game is gonna stick to the flavor pretty closely. Not only given the flips we have had so far, (All the flips are well within the realm of what I would have expected,) but my own role as well. Given those facts I could see a DAMN GOOD reason for a townie to fake claim their own name. As camn and others have said though, name claiming now is practically useless now. As far as my focus on substrike's posting behavior, yes that was a bad move on my part. I was not trying to focus on that part as much as clarify in my mind about HOW he posts. He just seems like the type to post a big block and write it as he sees it looking back at the post more. As far as commenting on his reads, well not much else to say, the big read was catching arch. I think my vote says it all.

@Ricardo: I think this question still applies though:

Hello. First things first, this account is a hydra...

... overestimates the ease of connecting a character to a specific role. There are quite a few characters in BSG, more than enough to populate a game of 13 without running into extras ...

What is more concerning to me is the way that Tanarin was smokescreening the nameclaim from the first moment. In post #29, he allowed the possibility, but pushed it to the end of the day. Now by post #41, he claims that it will out townies, somehow. I fail to see why, short of provided fake claims, that a nameclaim would out the town and not the scum. Besides that, I feel like roles that are effectively Millers should out themselves as soon as possible, as Millers should. I don't want to have someone claim a really suspicious role in endgame and lose for it. This stuff should be out now.

Acronach wants not to nameclaim because he wouldn't be able to fakeclaim properly. I have no problem with people being unable to fakeclaim. It looks scummy, really.

Bobsnox voting camn for being serious when he could have commented on the nameclaim doesn't give me a good feeling either. The same goes for Newman. This is why being arbitrary can be scummy. Because then they don't have to comment on valid discussion.

First bit: Who are you a hydra of?

Second bit: I disagree. While I agree with you that it might be hard to pin certain abilities to certain people, at this point it is a disadvantage to assume that the power roles are that cleverly guised. It would make sense for the majority of the town's power roles to be concentrated on characters central to the series; therefore, I wouldn't want to risk outing them this early.

Third bit: I don't follow, other than the bit of "smokescreening", which I find kind of weak given Arco's current state.

Fourth bit: Yea so why isn't your vote there? Distancing from your scum buddy without busing him on D1?

Fifth bit: I follow your bit on Bobsnox but disagree with you on Newman. So far newman is trolling and that's about it. Annoying, slightly; scummy, not really.

Bolded the relevant part. If it was so scummy, why NOT vote him instead of just sitting there commenting on it being scummy? Seems a bit like distancing to me, ricardo.

[bobsnox]

OK, what about the rest of the names I listed? What is your opinion on them?

myself, Ricardo, camn, bobsnox, valren

Tanarin - I see nothing scummy in your posts but I need to read through more of the thread to keep context in mind. I like that you're asking for analysis of yourself as well.

Ricardo - I like his two content posts. I like how he was thinking about the nameclaim idea. He is right that a nameclaim would be less valuable today.

camn - see above

bobsnox - yep I'm town

valern - post moar. scummiest out of your list. I addressed this

Terrible vote/reasoning on camn. Terrible. What motivation do scum have to push us into serious scumhunting early?

but have not received a response. The only reason I'm not voting him right now is because he voiced support for the acro wagon which camn was on. At first I thought valern was defending his scumbuddy camn but that doesn't make as much sense given yesterday's flip.

I have null or town reads on all of those people.

[Substrike22]

VOTE: Tanarin

Gut feeling, will place that gut feeling into words later. He's trying to make mountains out of molehills, which always scores major scum points from me. He comes on, he asks questions that mainly pertain to how other players feel about certain other players. Trying to look popular without contributing his own reads. He's scum.

I do agree with him above, though, I would like Ricardo to answer my question. Though the above is also an example of him making a big deal out of someone else's post, when Ricardo easily could have just not seen my question. Ima lol if he's bussing Ricardo right there. Cause they're scummy-scum-scum on my reads right now.

p-edit ninja'd by Bobsnox

[Tanarin]

VOTE: Tanarin

Gut feeling, will place that gut feeling into words later. He's trying to make mountains out of molehills, which always scores major scum points from me. He comes on, he asks questions that mainly pertain to how other players feel about certain other players. Trying to look popular without contributing his own reads. He's scum.

Fair enough, I can see why it can be seen as making a mountain out of a molehill. I know I was not trying to do that on my post about you. I just feel as if I don't at least defend my actions, that is even scummier than at least addressing them. As far as not making my own reads, I am trying to gather more info on how others feel and get their reactions on how they feel before I go and make any definitive reads. I have always found that you can gain a lot of insight just based on their answers about other players, especially if you see them back tracking and they can't provide a good reason as to WHY they changed theirmind.That is how I have always played the game.

What is worrying me is the whole Ricardo not saying who his two halves are. I understand they have their reasons as to not wanting to reveal, but not having any sort of meta at all to look back on is gonna make this harder to analyze any differences in behavior. At least with reya, I know where to look to get info on him (FYI: He plays mafia on MTGSalvation. I know he is pretty prolific on there.)

[bobsnox]

Trying to look popular without contributing his own reads.

I can see that. hmm

[Substrike22]

camn, so serious so soon, huh?

Anyway, if you really want to go there, I would say because random.org said so falls under the shitty reasons clause. Also, why not go after substrike, he did not give a reason at all? Wouldn't that by your logic also fall under the "avoid giving the town any insight into your thoughts" part of your statement?

Trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. Doesn't help that he was going after town-as-fuck Camn.

Well from what I am gathering from the flavor, if you can get up to say episode 12 of the next season ooba, you should be fine for this game. Also will do on the avatar.

I quote the above because he looks like he knows quite a bit about the flavor before we all do.

I think it could be risky given the flavor of this game. We are not dealing with pure cylons here. Instead we are dealing with the Demand Peace movement. I am assuming you have not seen BSG here, therefore would not be familiar with the group. It is a group of humans that wanted to end the fighting between humans and cylons. They eventually took on a Number Six model cylon in their group, (Unknowingly to the rest of the group, mind you.) Therefore names alone COULD out scum, it also gives us a possible timeline to look for characters who WOULD or WOULD NOT be in the setup. Also, there are a few characters we could EASILY tie to role, for example if Doc Cottle is in the setup, (Which given the nature of mafia in general I have no reason to believe he isn't,) we would not want to out the doc as well, and forcing him to basically fakeclaim D1 could get him lynched. I do agree millers SHOULD out themselves ASAP though.

Edited by Substrike: Again, Wayyyy to much goddamned knowledge of the flavor... how did he know cylons were on both sides, at this point?

@substrike22 regarding post #51 Why vote twice in the same post? I assume you are basically writing stuff in the order it was posted, but why unvote/vote twice in the same post? Wouldn't a FoS on Camn suffice.

Also:

Unvote
Vote: Acronach

I would REALLY, REALLY like him to lead off any name claims we may do, though by his actions we may be getting a claim off of him real soon anyway.

Answering the question: Because as you said, it was written in a train-of-thought type post and voting and unvoting documents my movement of suspicion just as easily, if not better, than an FoS. Plus I no longer suspected Camn given the events that were unfolding. I had a problem with her wording and motive for attack, but then I saw Acro's blatent-I'm-scum-lynch-me-please post and decided Camn was town and forced Acro to slip.

Also your reasons for voting Tan are suspect. You had 2 (small, but 2) posts between when Acro slipped and when Bob and I called out Arco on the obvi slip. Then your argument for voting him is to hop on the wagon, subtly at the end of your post, putting him at L-1 without warning us, then allowing Bob to come in and hammer for a quick day 1 exit strategy. While I agree with the general town analysis that Bob's hammer was a mistake, your putting him at L-1 in this manner was not. (Ironic since you actually pointed out that we needed to look at people that posted during this time frame.)

Furthermore;
The first thing you do on Day 2 is point out the obvious-fucking-thing of the two players who didn't post on Day 1. We could all see that DTMaster and Reya hadn't said anything. Normally, pointing this out wouldn't score scum points, but you used the first post of the day, and posted no other worthwhile content in that post, to do it. Therefore it warrants scum points.

Reya you're full of shit too based on your first post, too. Step it up.

Top of P. 4, your first FoS/Vote of the day is for DT for lurking? Really? With so many other qualified scum candidates around and DT's Town-as-fuck post above? <---- scummmyyyy. especially since you haven't changed it since then.

^^^ Full Tana read ^^^

p-edit, Ninja'd by Bob and Tanarain

[Substrike22]

edit: 4th para from bottom, should say your reasons for voting Acro, not reasons for voting tan, that would be silly if he voted himself.

[Tanarin]

@bobsnox: You call out Val but not Reya? Why are you basically ignoring him? He has contributed even less than Val has

Damn day 1 was 2 days wtf? We don't have alot of info like tanarin said so a name claim is fine with me.

That is IT for reya. Why is Valhigher on your scum list then given what you have said?

@Substrike: I did not know I had to un-FoS a person

1)OK, understood. My fault for not looking.

Figured that would be enough to state that it was an honest mistake about now knowing he was V/LA.

As for the L-1 thing, yes that was my fault, I SHOULD have counted the votes before I voted myself. I did not though and we got lucky to hit scum. I should have counted, just like bob should have looked before he hammered. I am also not following how it is ironic that we needed to look at people who posted during the gap between arch's post and your catch when I was the one who not only suggested that, but put MYSELF first on the list.

As for "going after" camn, how is asking about why he voted the dice using random voter over the one who gave no reason what so ever person "going after" him. Asking for the logic is a perfectly valid question IMO.

[Substrike22]

It's that you haven't voted. You sent an FoS after a lurker and haven't pushed anyone who's actually playing. You'd rather talk about people who aren't playing then people who are playing poorly. I agree lurkers should be mentioned: particularly Reya at this point since we're still waiting for any meaningful contribution. But your focus has been on lurkers and bad scum reads.

You putting yourself on that list doesn't alleviate you of the responsibility of being on the list in the first place. It just creates WIFOM on why you would or wouldn't put your name on the list. The difference between you and Bob is you had an extended post discussing different things, Bob just popped on and voted. It was the manner in which you did it.

I don't have a problem with you asking. I have a problem in the manner you went around it. As I said. You made a mountain out of a molehill, and you've done it several times now. You're blowing up little problems because you're afraid people will notice the big problem: you're scum.

Also, following your current tactic of forcing people who haven't contributed to contribute, if you were really hunting lurkers, then you would've switched your vote/FoS from DTM to Reya in one of the 3 posts you've had since DTM came in and laid down his post.

[Tanarin]

The reason why I have not gone after reya is because I have not SEEN him on since he last posted. If I have and he did not say anything, damn straight I would call him on it. Notice both times I called out lurkers it was after i said I have seen them on multiple times and not said anything. As far as knowing the flavor, well if you have seen the series you can make a pretty reasonable guess as to what is going on here. I am still failing to see how I made a mountain out of a molehill asking camn on his reasoning of voting one way or another. Again,I think it was a relevent question and if it WAS an issue, I would have followed up with it more. Seems you are making a bigger issue out of it than I am. I obviously dropped it after she answered my question.

[bobsnox]

Tan - I haven't ISOd everyone and Reya wasn't on your list...

[Tanarin]

Which list? The one about who to look at between the arch slip and the spotting of the slip? If so, that is because reya did not post between that time.

[bobsnox]

You asked why I called out valern and not reya... That's why. Will ISO more when not on my phone

[Tanarin]

Ahh, OK. Now I understand what you meant.

[Substrike22]

Tana there are just too many things in that flavor paragraph that point out that you know way too much about who was in the mafia group. If you had just watched the series and guessed, like you said, you might've just as easily come to the conclusion that ALL of the resistance was Human, with no outed cylons. The fact that you listed the exact model that happened to be in the set up as a mafia-member is sketchy as hell to me. But I'm going to let that one slide cause there are alternative theories for that, now that I think about it. Plus you might've just watched the episodes or something. I do want to know what everyone else thinks on this point, though. That being said:

I still find your vote from yesterday to be the sketchiest of the group so my vote is staying on you unless I get a better scum read from someone else.

Ricardo is close. So is Newman if he continues to not contribute, saying that early game is useless until later. The funny thing about the whole "early game is useless til later" is then later rolls around and the active lurker is still not contributing, making us usually decide between a town player who's been contributing but said a few scummy things and an active lurker who hasn't said anything scummy but hasn't said anything really pro town either. So, please up that vote count. Reya, come back and play with us.

FOS: Newman, Ricardo, Reya

DT don't go back to the shadows I value your opinion highly. Assuming of course that you're not scum.

[camn]

I am not really bothered by Newman not contributing much day 1.. It was a quick day.
I am bothered by Newman totally dodging the commentary revolving abound a scummy vote ON HIM.
certainly, if he were town, he would have weighed in on that so-called diceroll right?

It's a small thing.. But small things are big sometimes.

In other news.. I am not following this case on Tanarin.
I guess I should say.. I am following, kind of, but I don't see how any of it is really that scummy.
Making big things out of small things is what we do 4 pages in. I think of that as more pro-town than scummy. It is pro-discussion and pushes the game, that's for sure.

And I await Ricardo's response to some pretty valid points about them concealing thier meta.

[Reya Cookiebringer]

I actually think a name claim would help us. Of coarse I stated an opinion and those are never allowed in mafia silly me. We have very little info. Tana looks like town to me. Newman is really the scummiest one to me at this point not that I really have anything on him atm. Theres your pile of shit sub.