Mini 902: Pick your Poison 4 (Game over!)

[Porochaz]

Patrick, What would happen in a scenario where a Doctor protects a weak doc who protects scum?

[farside22]

If we are talking about hypoclaiming and one of a weak doc or masonaire exsist I think a role cop may the the path of least resistance between RB/RC.
With a RB and hypoclaiming and the fact the scum know the roles of each player they can use the hypoclaim to block infomoration.
However giving them a day rolecop gives them a shot at finding said role before the night.
idk it just makes me really wary of both roles even more now.

[Patrick]

Patrick, What would happen in a scenario where a Doctor protects a weak doc who protects scum?

The weak doctor would still die in this scenario.

[Yosarian2]

amd what type of combo might that be? a role-cop vengful or maybe a role cop Rb? Godfather is the weakest role by himself, we might not even have a cop (I am almost sure we don't have one because they are a bit too powerful). I think that right now picking the gf and then somthing else is the best "combo" right now.

They don't have to give us a cop, but they had to give us at least one of the three information roles (cop, weak doc, masonizer), and all 3 are vunlerable to a godfather.

Still, I'm leaning towards settle for godfather-rolecop, with roleblocker-rolecop being my second choice.

[farside22]

amd what type of combo might that be? a role-cop vengful or maybe a role cop Rb? Godfather is the weakest role by himself, we might not even have a cop (I am almost sure we don't have one because they are a bit too powerful). I think that right now picking the gf and then somthing else is the best "combo" right now.

They don't have to give us a cop, but they had to give us at least one of the three information roles (cop, weak doc, masonizer), and all 3 are vunlerable to a godfather.

Still, I'm leaning towards settle for godfather-rolecop, with roleblocker-rolecop being my second choice.

I cant' believe you still think rb/rc is a good thing.
the role cop is a day action.
There are 3 town power roles out there. Scum have a 3 out of 9 shout figuring out who it can be. Give them a day role cop and they can clear 3 out of 8 players from being said PR. Then give them a RB to pick from and with a chance of a mislynch (worse case scanario) 3 out 7. There chances of roleblocking the right person night 1 increases to almost 50%
No thanks.

With that said giving the a RC ensures they don't mess with any potentional PR's out there where as RB does. Having the GF messes already with potentional investigations so why give them RB/GF

Vote: Godfather
Vote: RoleCop

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I agree, farside, that's why Godfather/rolecop is now my first choice. I just really don't want to see Godfather/roleblocker, and the other two roles are just horrible.

Vote: RoleCop

[Patrick]

Votecount

Godfather (6) -- Riceballtail, CooLDoG, malpascp, chamber, Leech, farside22
Roleblocker (1) -- chamber
Rolecop (2) -- farside22, Yosarian2

12 alive, 7 to choose.

[scotmany12]

Vote: Rolecop

Don't really want to hammer godfather just yet. Have to give it some more thought.

[Leech]

With that said giving the a RC ensures they don't mess with any potentional PR's out there where as RB does. Having the GF messes already with potentional investigations so why give them RB/GF

I can agree to that. Also, if we have a masonizer, the RB would cripple that role for the rest of the game. The rolecop is far less dangerous considering it not only requires luck, but it doesn't have a crippling effect like that specific RB would.

Vote: Rolecop

[ortolan]

mmm maybe rolecop is better than roleblocker- all it really does is increase scum's chances of hitting power roles at night

Vote: rolecop

[chamber]

Ugh. I think rolecop is better(edit: stronger, worse for the town) than roleblocker primarily for 1 reason. I think their potential effect of the game is similar, but the roleblocker is really only useful after a couple days, where as the rolecop is useful right away(edit:Yes it gets weaker as the game goes on but the timing is the issue), a theoretical mason can completely play around the roleblocker if he exists by just using his ability night 1, a theoretical weak doc also has a similar benefit of being fairly sure his n1 and n2 protects are legit, and same with a cop if they decided to give us one for some reason. Anyway as I was saying, the rolecop is basically impossible for the town to play around, but we have potential to play around the roleblocker, or get him lynched, precisely because he's not valuable until the late game. If it was an infy shot roleblocker it would be different, but I doubt he's using his ability n1 given he's only got 2 shots with it.

[CooLDoG]

vote: rolecop

If they don't have a veng or a roleblocker then the only thing a role cop could give them is info. If they did had a veng or a rb then they could stop our power roles, but with only a rolecop they can only get info on who is the week doc/cop/etc. This seems to be the "best" combo of sorts.

[CooLDoG]

ewop: not that it stops the scum from hitting power roles but it stops them from using the other roles that they might have on our power roles.

[chamber]

Thats L-1 on rolecop so to speak, Id appreciate if people held off for more talk before hammers. Cool can you please answer my previous question.

[Sajin]

I really dislike how most of the rolecop voters completely ignore and do not comment on my reasons for my aversion to the rolecop role.

This being an open setup, if even 1 role survives till 3 man LY/LO town has a 50/50 shot of winning due to the open nature of this setup.

Tell me why that is not worth something?

[scotmany12]

You act as if the rolecop is powerful. It is only powerful when put together with the roleblocker. All the other roles have a far greater risk to them.

[scotmany12]

And I don't understand how a rolecop is any more dangerous than the other roles in regards to reaching that endgame scenario.

[Sajin]

Rolecop could easily get power roles wagoned and/or nightkilled.

What are the chances that they would not rolecop 2 vanillas before endgame? Much lower then random.

[Anon]

My internet went crazy and lost access. Definitely should have this thing fixed by weekend.

My personal opinion was not to have any role that could get fake confirmed and that could get a free ride to endgame. Im still not liking godfather.

Acutally, what are people's opinion on roleblocker?

Sajin, can you give us a concrete example on the power of the rolecop?

[Anon]

There are some interesting points on this thread that are making me rethink my choices.

I maintain that the janitor is a no-no.

I also agree that giving scum a free kill is very dangerous. Specially if we get near lylo when one of this mafiates still alive, that can simply go kamikaze for the win.

There are practically no arguments of why the godfather role is weak, in fact it can be devastating if power roles give him confirmed town status. I understand that it can be one of the least powerful for its passive nature, though.

Im still having a hard time understanding why the roleblocker is dangerous specially considering its only 2 shot and scum dont know if they are successful.

Finally, the rolecop. Im going back and forth with this one. At first it didnt seem that powerful but I really want to hear from Sajin or from anyone why is that powerful in case Im missing something.


.............

Random thoughts that came up while rereading:

What we have is 3 information roles that become effectivelly useless if we have a godfather hence why it is a terrible role.

Actually, if we pick godfather there are other 2 scum that are vulnerable.

Godfather is the weakest role by himself

Why?

[quote="Yosarian2]I'd agree to rolecop and godfather. Roleblocker and godfather wouldn't be the worst thing[/quote]

I'd really, really rather not give the scum both godfather and roleblocker. With the two of them together, it would really cripple town information roles.

Yosarian2, what made you change your mind of this combo?

[Anon]

fail tags are fail.

I'd agree to rolecop and godfather. Roleblocker and godfather wouldn't be the worst thing

I'd really, really rather not give the scum both godfather and roleblocker. With the two of them together, it would really cripple town information roles.

Yosarian2, what made you change your mind of this combo?


What does everyone think of a godfather/roleblocker combo?. It seems a very interesting and contradictory situation for scum since with godfather they want town power roles to target but with a roleblocker they could be preventing this advantage. What do you think?

[Leech]

I liked the idea of Godfather/Roleblocker until I realized that it would ruin the masonizer role for the entire game, if blocked. Out of all the investigative roles possible, I think that one is the most likely to be in the game. It would be luck of the draw, but being able to completely disable a role like that is a bad idea. In comparison the rolecop is less powerful.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian2, what made you change your mind of this combo?

I changed my mind all the way back here:

idk I feel a role cop for mafia is a powerful role too. Giving the mafia the ability to investigate for themselves a player to see what role that person has.........Worse is giving them rolecop with a roleblocker.

Hmm.

I don't think a scum rolecop is that big of a deal, because if the scum manage to find a power role night 2 they still wouldn't be able to kill him until night 3, by which point the power role likely would have claimed anyway. But you're right, giving rolecop and roleblocker does increase the risk a bit. is kind of a bad combination.

Perhaps rolecop and godfather instead then?

[Yosarian2]

Oh, wait, I misunderstood the question. You were asking why I'm no longer in favor of godfather/roleblocker, right?

When I made that first quote, I was mostly thinking about how bad vengeful and janitor would be, and was willing to consider any combination that didn't have them. I still am to some extent, but the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that godfather/roleblocker is worse then, say, godfather/roleco[.

[farside22]

GF already messed with any investigation role we may have received.
Cop or mason will get an innocent.
And confuse the weak doctor as well.

The RB can block an invesigation (mason and cop will know, weak doc will not)
so it really depends on what roles are out there. We have to have a least one invesigation role out there based on the set up.
Like I said earlier giving the rolecop/RB is far worse. It increases the chances of scum not only finding PR but blocking power roles.