Mini 747 Over.

[PJ.]

EBWOP:

Unvote Vote:Nicolios

[Shadow Knight]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're gonna be great reasons or airtight cases on day one, but give me *something* I can look at later and go "ok, in light of what we learned on day 3, so-and-so's defense of whats-his-face is a pretty good indicator that he's townie." You know? bandwagonning to get a claim is just a way of outing power roles. at least make the scum fish for them or try harder instead of being able to post "me too" and a vote.

[PJ.]

What do you think of what I said about Nicilios? His trying to be townie and blatant buddying?

[Shadow Knight]

I'm not sure about the buddying up, but after a quick second look, his posts do seem kind of forced. The thing that jumped out at me, you already pointed out. There was no case against you, but he stated you were trying to deflect it? Its enough for me throw an

FOS nicolio

But I like my vote on theinin for now.

[Shadow Knight]

EBWODP: sorry, nicolio is a girl. my bad.

[nicoliosgotpolio]

I'm not sure about the buddying up, but after a quick second look, his posts do seem kind of forced.

Ellaborate on forced?

[nicoliosgotpolio]

Panzer, tell me how what I said was buddying.

[Shadow Knight]

I'm not sure about the buddying up, but after a quick second look, his posts do seem kind of forced.

Ellaborate on forced?

Just a vibe I'm getting that you're trying too hard to appear townie.

[xofelf]

I would like to also poke Xofelf. What are your current thoughts of the game? What do you think of geraintm telling me to stop? Do you think I should stop? And Why?

Poke me eh?

The way you're going about "getting the town to talk" isn't actually helping YOU at all. It's just making people really pissed at you and the way i see it, less likely to look at things as close as they should. I think that you're hindering the town's progress with your shenanigans.
And i really get a bad feel from your actions. You yourself said you're up to something and from what i've seen it's not in the town's best interest.
That the kind of thing you were looking for?

[Theinin]

don't worry about it.
it's only four votes, i don't think
scum will reveal themselves
by placing the 5th, 6th, and/or 7th .

This seems like a pro-town reaction to the bandwagon, but like with nicolio, the wording of this post doesn't really feel right. Not really something I can quantify though.

unvote.

I'M done with my random.

Why should I stop?

Why shouldn't ZEEnon have 4 votes?

Why do I have to be up to something?

Because its getting kinda weird.
I don't see a problem with L-3. L-1 would be pushing it.

I don't know. ARE you up to something?

I actually agree with Shadow Knight here (I'll respond to his post in a sec), the wording in this post feels real forced to me.

To me it seems like a distraction. It's pretty clear now that you aren't a cop. So, what are you doing? I believe he's trying to push a case off of himself with this. Thoughts?

Vote: Panzer

So wait. You believe that scum would, in order to push a case off themselves, claim to be a daycop, and therefore draw as much attention to them as possible? I'm not sure I understand.

theinin, why vote shadow, i don't get it?

I found some things he said rather curious, and wanted to see his reaction.Although nicolio got my attention as well, overall I found Shadow's play, considering his wording, to be a little stranger, hence a vote and not an FOS.

ShadowKnight & Hoopla- Exactly why did you take a post that begins with the words "Alright, hmm, what will get the town talking" seriously?

I wasn't sure if I should take it seriously or not, actually. After all, I could say "wow, no one is talking. I own a Ferrari F-450." Now that is probably not true, but it *could* be true and it would indeed start conversation. For a mafia tie in, I can remember reading a game in which 3 people claimed to be cops on day 1. 2 were telling the truth. 1 was scum. It got conversation started, but it also got one of the claimed cops lynched that day. (I think Mastermind of Sin started that one.)

Except that your analogy with the Ferrari is flawed simply due to the difference between the wording of your post and panzer's. With your post, the "wow, no one is talking." reads like an observation of the fact, and the "I own a Ferrari F-450" is utterly irrelevant. Now, if you had said "Hey, we'd better get discussion going. I own a Ferrari F-450." That would mean that one can rather safely assume that the Ferrari comment was to start up discussion, and it therefore should be taken with less seriousness than the comment you posted might be.

In addition, I fail to see the relevance between MoS's game and this one. (Although I haven't read it, so if I'm incorrect in my assumptions here, a link would be preferred.) In that case, scum would either claim cop to blend in, or to try and get themselves cleared. Panzer claiming would do this opposite in this situation (IE- draw attention to himself), and would in no way clear him, considering that this is a Little Italy game.

At the moment I'm not liking Panzer's erratic and outright crazy play, but I don't see it as particularly scummy. It feels like he's just making an attempt to start up conversation, and he has done so.

1. Are you seriously claiming day cop?

2. Why would you come forward so soon?

I don't really think you are a day cop (hence, not voting for khelvaster) but don't you think there are other methods for starting conversation? Starting out with a claim like that if false is dangerous on the off chance that there really *is* a day cop out there. Not sure he/she'd be dumb enough to counter claim you, but its a risk that doesn't need to be taken.

/rant

FOS Panzer

I already asked why you took Panzer's claim seriously, but why FOS him? Even if he was lying about the claim, it was rather clearly to stir up discussion, something a pro-town player is much more likely to do than a scummy one. And if it you found it scummy, or at least strange enough, to be worthy of an FOS, then why in the world would you not change your vote, when your vote for me was just a random placeholder?

I was the only one voting you, so why bother unvoting until I actually want to vote someone for real? Why are you that worried about a single vote which I clearly stated was random? Why would I FOS *and* vote him? Perhaps I should have just used IGMEOY?

A. Nowhere in that post do I express concern over you voting me. It was just rather curious because you were obviously random-voting me, as you state that we aren't out of the RVS. Yet, you seemed to have found Panzer's post scummy enough to warrant an FOS, and not a vote. Since your vote on me was obviously not because I was acting particularly scummy, I wondered why the FOS was neccesary.

Granted. And that's why I'm not voting him, but no matter how outlandish, a fake claim is not a good idea this early on.

Here is the post that Shadow was responding to.

Starting out with a claim like that if false is dangerous on the off chance that there really *is* a day cop out there.

Chances are amazingly good that that's not an issue.

I concur with this, but why in the world is this justification for not voting him?

Wait, do you want me to vote him or not vote him? I feel like you're trying to play both ends against the middle here. I didn't vote him because what he did was odd, but not necessarily scummy. I FOS'd him because what he did was odd, but not necessarily town.

Wrong. I am not trying to have it both ways, in that I don't care if you vote him or not. I personally agreed with Cephrir's post, but in response to that post you say

Granted. And that's why I'm not voting him,

but no matter how outlandish, a fake claim is not a good idea this early on.

And so I wondered why you felt that Cephrir's post outlined the reasons why you were not voting panzer.

I can't say that I'm comfortable with 4 votes on one person on page 2. Anyone want to back off of him for now?

Why? It's not like anybody has presented a case on Zee that we're all blindly following, and there's no indication that a random lynch is going to occur. Besides, bandwagons are a great way to avoid the game from stalling, which is something that scum want from the onset.

Why am I not comfortable with someone being more than halfway to lynch without a case being made against them? Just personal feelings I guess. If someone gets that high in the vote count, I want to be able to see reasons for voting. Maybe its because a bandwagon is the opposite of random voting. (I.E. once a pattern emerges, its no longer random.) I keep feeling like you're stating the obvious (bandwagons keep the game from stalling). I never said I'm against bandwagons, I said I'm against random bandwagons. Please don't misrepresent what I'm saying in the future.

You state that you are uncomfortable with four votes on somebody on Page 2. However, a bandwagon is in fact one of the best ways to begin the game as it quickly potentially puts the scum on the defensive, should they or one of their buddies be the target. Besides, it helps provide the town informations through the reactions to that wagon, which can help the town later on. To be fair, you outline later on that it was a result of the fact that these were random votes, but unless we have a suitable target, a random bandwagon is preferable to no wagon at all.

And yes, I was stating something that I personally felt was rather obvious. However, you objected to the bandwagon, outright wanting people to unvote, when you yourself admit both of these premises.

A. Bandwagons keep the game from stalling.

B. That you, at least, didn't have anything legitimately scummy to work with "before my post."

Therefore, by objecting to a bandwagon, how were you not encouraging the game to stall?

It makes me uncomfortable because we're still random voting. I realize that we're going to end up bandwagonning someone, but there is usually some reason for it. I'm not happy about a flimsy bandwagon, but I'm downright leery of a bandwagon that consists entirely of random votes.

If you're leery of us still random voting, then present a case against someone. Provide a good reason to hop onto the already-building bandwagon on me. It feels like you're complaining and providing nothing in return. Oh, in addition, if you are as scared about a wagon that consists of random votes as you claim, why are you still random-voting me, and not unvoting until something of substance emerges?

[Again, please stop misrepresenting me. I *never* said I'm leery of random voting in general. I said I'm leery of a bandwagon based on nothing but random votes. In fact, I just got done telling Xofelf that we weren't out of the random voting stage, and that if she wanted to progress beyond it, she would have to post an actual case against someone.

Shadow Knight, meet Shadow Knight.

It makes me uncomfortable because we're still random voting. I realize that we're going to end up bandwagonning someone, but there is usually some reason for it.

This means that you wish for the random voting, and random wagon to stop, no? For that to happen, content would have to be provided, something that it didn't feel that you were particularly helping to do by complaining about us still random voting.

And i really get a bad feel from your actions. You yourself said you're up to something and from what i've seen it's not in the town's best interest.

Exactly why do you get a bad feeling, and why do you feel that what panzer has done thus far this game has not been in the best interest of the town?

[PJ.]

Panzer, tell me how what I said was buddying.

By answering a question not directed at you. That is giving possible scum an out. It is also protecting Geraintm from having to answer his own questions. Thus is buddying. Also Nicolios, what case was on me and how did I deflect it?

@Shadowknight: That is some serious cognitive dissonance but I'm guilty of that same thing occasionally whether I'm town or scum.

FoS:Shadowknight

@elf, I don't see anyone being mad at me beside Geraintm, who needs to answer my questions.

[Cephrir]

I'll catch up on this game today or tomorrow.

[Khelvaster]

I'm still waiting for some sort of substance from:

Erratus Apathos
J Assassin

[Khelvaster]

EBWODP:

Zeenon

I'd like to hear what these three guys have to think about panzer/theinon/nicol before we keep going on. It's not good for people to get behind in games.

[geraintm]

don't worry about it.
it's only four votes, i don't think
scum will reveal themselves
by placing the 5th, 6th, and/or 7th .

This seems like a pro-town reaction to the bandwagon, but like with nicolio, the wording of this post doesn't really feel right. Not really something I can quantify though.

i can say exactly the sam as you, your post there is a weird buddying up to him, but at teh same time casting doubt...

[Shadow Knight]

*banging head on desk*

I am not against random votes. I am against a bandwagon made entirely of random votes. Reason being that it gives everyone an easy answer as to why they're voting as they are. "*shrug* it was random" Even if you're going to vote someone and say "nothing concrete, just a bad vibe" that's a *reason*. Its a bad reason, and I'll probably ask you to try and be specific about what gives you the bad vibe, but its something that we can discuss.

Yes, once someone gets over halfway to lynch, I would like for the people who cited "random" as their reason for voting to unvote or give a reason why they're keeping their vote where it is. Even I said previously, that I was only keeping my vote on you because you were in no danger of a lynch. Then later, when I felt I had a case (whether it was good, bad, airtight, or paper thin) I posted my thoughts and confirmed the vote.

Then you post a "defense" which essentially just attacks me using crap logic and more misrepresentation. You post two quotes that I still stand by and attempt to use them against me. Both quotes mean the same thing. I am leery of bandwagons comprised entirely of reasonless votes. The don't provide the town with anything except a claim, which benefits scum more than us. Bandwagons are only worth the possible outing of a power role if you can then use the voting record and reasons for voting to deduce who wanted the claim for good reasons and who wanted it for bad reasons.

The crap logic comes in where you try and accuse me of wanting the game to stall, when the very thing I'm pushing for (giving actual reasons for votes) would promote discussion and give us something concrete to work with. This was blatant misrep and crap logic on your part, two HUGE scumtells as far as I'm concerned.

[PJ.]

It's all about pressure Shadow Knight. And i'm still saying those quotes were not the same, unless he spin doctored it. They seemed like major cognitive dissonance.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Count Numero Dos: (As of Post 53)
ZEEnon- (2) - Cephir, geraintm,
Theinin- (2) - Shadow Knight, Hoopla
Panzerjager - (2) - xofelf, nicoliosgotpolio
nicoliosgotpolio- (2) - Khelvaster, Panzerjager
Shadow Knight- (1) - Theinin
Erratus Apathos - (1) - ZEEnon
Chephir- (1)- Erratus Apathos

Not Voting: J Assassin

With 12 alive, 7 will lynch.

Deadline is March 14 at 2:05 PM EST.

[Kmd4390]

Prodded J Assassin. Everyone else has posted at least once within the last 72 hours. I appreciate the activity so far. Also the fact that I didn't have to replace anyone in confirmations.

[Shadow Knight]

Why are you uncomfortable with what are essentially random votes, even if there are four of them? I think we're sensible enough not to mislynch randomly.

It makes me uncomfortable because we're still random voting. I realize that we're going to end up bandwagonning someone, but there is usually some reason for it. I'm not happy about a flimsy bandwagon, but I'm downright leery of a bandwagon that consists entirely of random votes. At least a flimsy case he can argue against and then we can make observations based on what he and his accusers say. What's the defense against random votes? (Not sure I explained my thoughts well enough, but that's my basic thinking on it.)

This is my entire post regarding that question. My entire point was that I didn't like the bandwagon because it was based entirely on random votes and I explained why. Nowhere in there did I say I was against bandwagons in general. So yeah, I'd say he was spin doctoring my words, or at least taking them severly out of context.

[nicoliosgotpolio]

By answering a question not directed at you. That is giving possible scum an out. It is also protecting Geraintm from having to answer his own questions. Thus is buddying. Also Nicolios, what case was on me and how did I deflect it?

Sorry. Let's ask Geraintm to answer the questions as well.

I don't know yet, I haven't figured that out.

/sick, busy.

out for the weekend.

[xofelf]

I don't know exactly what Panzy is planning but i just can't see that it's helping anybody at all. But I've been doing some thinking and i don't think he's covering by claiming day cop as scum, but that he's really totally powerless and is vanilla. I don't think he's playing the best TOWN he can, but i was looking over some of his past games and this seems to be the case. so for now,

Unvote PanzyPants

If something else jumps out at me when it's not midnight, i'll let you know tomorrow.

[ZEEnon]

First of all, since it seems the random voting stage is soon to be completed,

Unvote: Erratus Apathos

.

I'd like to hear what these three guys have to think about panzer/theinon/nicol before we keep going on. It's not good for people to get behind in games.

Nobody was addressing me, which makes me feel kind of left out. I'm quite active on the site, but if nobody brings me into conversation, or I don't find anything meaningful to post, i'm not going to post.

---

Panzerjager

: He is probably bored with his role so he is making it a little more interesting.
That might not be the case, but for me, it's innocent until

proven

guilty.

---

nicoliosgotpolio

:

unvote.

Because its getting kinda weird.
I don't see a problem with L-3. L-1 would be pushing it.
I don't know. ARE you up to something?
To me it seems like a distraction. It's pretty clear now that you aren't a cop. So, what are you doing? I believe he's trying to push a case off of himself with this. Thoughts?

Vote: Panzer

This looks like a confused mafia member. She could be wondering why someone would bring so much attention themselves, yet happy that it gives her a reason to vote for Panzerjager. For future reference, I said it

looks

like a confused mafiosa, not that it gives me solid proof to base any vote on.

---

theinin

: I read through his (i think it was a male) posts and I don't believe I seen any reasons I should be suspecting him as of yet.

---

[Erratus Apathos]

But if you're going to investigate me, I should warn you that I'm totally a miller or something! [/obvscum]

hi obvscum

Unvote
Vote: Cephrir

argh, stop it. just everyone stop it. page 3, and joke votes should have stopped by now.

Joke vote? Hahaha... no. This vote is quite serious, thanks.

Nicoliosgotpolio: How can you tell that Panzerjager is pushing a case away from himself but not tell which case that is?

[Kmd4390]

J Assassin has requested replacement. I will contact the first person on my replacement list.