Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Mafia - Game Over

[AGar]

I regret nothing about the post game banter, Beli's reaction at the end sealed my fate for a vengekill.

WP Kanye.

[Tammy]

Oh yeah, thanks for running it kdub!

[kanyeknowsbest]

lmao the dead qt is so fuckin sick

[kanyeknowsbest]

I regret nothing about the post game banter, Beli's reaction at the end sealed my fate for a vengekill.

WP Kanye.

yah the vengekill is what i was referring to when i said that there wasnt anything you could have posted or not posted to save the game.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Oh yeah, thanks for running it kdub!

+1 to this. game was mad frustrating but i liked the setup and the game was enjoyable @ the end of the day. as always looking 4ward to whatever you run next : ]

[AGar]

I regret nothing about the post game banter, Beli's reaction at the end sealed my fate for a vengekill.

WP Kanye.

yah the vengekill is what i was referring to when i said that there wasnt anything you could have posted or not posted to save the game.

I didn't even get that at the time, honestly.

Well done Kdub, awesome job all around.

[mastin2]

Opinions on {DV, Sven, pie, Kalimar, AGar}?

Not a chance in hell I catch all five scum on D1, so at least one name is town.

...But I did manage to catch 3/4 scum and the serial killer! (And, yes, there was exactly one name town: Sven.)

(Okay, admittedly, I dropped AGar by the time I had died.)

I really

was

daykilled for a damn-good reason.
(I likely woulda figured Nacho out, too--he was working his way progressively down on my townlist if memory serves, because he wasn't being the town Nacho I was thinking he'd be. But admittedly, I likely would have simply switched not-catching-Nacho to not-catching-AGar.)

[Sakura Hana]

Oh hey mastin, any words for me?

[Kdub]

My thoughts on the game (tl;dr warning):

First, I want to thank Amrun and Antihero for reviewing this game. Their suggestions greatly improved the setup, and overall, I'm reasonably happy with the game balance (more on that later).

I'll start out by talking about the setup itself and some of the design decisions I made. Since the premise of almost all Gundam series is that these mobile suits are huge, powerful war machines, I knew that they needed to be distinguished in some way within the setup. My first thought was just that all the mobile suit pilots would have power roles and non-pilots would just be VTs. Unfortunately, that tends to reward knowledge of the source material more than anything else. I decided to compromise by having most PRs be tied to mobile suits, but still having some regular abilities sprinkled in. The limited-reveal system of only revealing mobile suit powers but revealing them in their entirely was just an added twist to set apart the mobile suits. There were other ways I could have done it, and if I were designing this setup again, maybe I would have gone to a more standard reveal system. Maybe having a role description (e.g. "cop", "jailkeeper", "VT") attached to both the character and the suit would have been better, but I think it worked out fine.

My initial setup idea was just to have a single mafia faction (no SK) which would include Rau, Dearka, Yzak, Nicol, and maybe Athrun, but that left out a large number of potential antagonists. I tried to think about a setup with this faction plus what ended up being the Blue Cosmos faction, but that would have required a larger setup to balance the numbers and I was quickly running out of enough protagonists to cover the town plus safeclaims. I finally settled on the 4 mafia + SK setup, which still makes flavor sense and is balanced in terms of numbers. I think having 5 mafia would have been too much,and probably would have needed to make this a 23-24 player game to account for that.

I'm quite happy with the design of the SK role. The entire point of the mental link with Mu (besides being perfect in terms of the source material) was to give the town a way to "catch" the SK since he was immune to regular investigation results. I designed the mental link so that it wouldn't necessarily be a guilty result (since it could be triggered in multiple ways). I think this type of ability in general could be used in future games as sort of a nerfed cop role - someone who gets a guilty if any of those things occur, which wouldn't be as blunt as a straight cop, but would narrow down possibilities quite a bit.

The Blue Cosmos faction was designed with slightly weak powers, but that could help them in the day game if used properly. Both Azrael's courier ability and Orga's day kill should have, in principle, been used to gain town credit, although that didn't really happen this game. I put in the condition that they had to sacrifice their night kill if they used the day kill just so they couldn't hold it until lylo or use it as a free kill if Orga was going to be lynched. I'm still not sure if this was a good balance move or not, but it reduces swing, and they knew up front what the restrictions were. Clotho and Shani's roles were fairly standard, and I made them non-consecutive because I thought it would be more balanced with the rest of the setup.

The town's power was spread out quite a bit, which was by design since they would have both an SK and the mafia going after them. Most of the main investigative roles were limited (either one-shot or non-consecutive). I think the Kira role probably could have been designed better in retrospect. I knew I wanted to make him a JOAT, but the abilities were sort of a random collection of different powers rather than anything with a coherent focus. I guess that's not terrible, but I probably could have come up with abilities that fit in with the rest of the seutp better. The triggering of his SEED ability being caused by Flay's death was done purely for flavor reasons, but there was probably a better way to design that as well. Cagalli's salvage ability was a bit of a stretch flavor-wise, but it served as a semi-universal backup that was essentially non-consecutive due to the way it functioned. There were some abilities (the killing ones) that were too powerful to let her recover, so she would just get nothing from those suits, and Amrun convinced me that the watcher was too powerful as well, so it was nerfed to a voyeur if salvaged. Now that I think about it, Yzak's vengeful ability could have been designed better (I should have forced him to post it publicly in his first post after the lynch), but it ended up not mattering as kanye already knew AGar was scum when Beli didn't hammer, and he pre-submitted his kill anyway. I made Mu a one-shot bulletproof bodyguard instead of a regular doctor to reduce swing a bit. Since he was the only PR for the town that could find the SK, I didn't really want him to die early on. I was a bit nervous about making the Astray abilities one-shot and then giving one of the three to the mafia as a safeclaim since they could have messed it up if they deviated from the claim, but it worked out OK. The neighborhood was probably one of the least active I've ever seen, considering how long both neighbors lasted into the game. I don't think any roles were particularly overpowered, so I'm pretty happy with the overall game balance, even if some roles could have been designed better.

Now, onto the game itself...

The main focus was (and probably will continue to be) the issue of lynching vs. leashing a caught SK. I personally don't think there is a clear answer (as evidenced by the heated debate) and see decent arguments for both. Personally, I think I would have leaned toward lynching pie. It was D1, lynching the SK probably puts you ahead in the numbers game, assuming the game was balanced to start. As Natirasha said, it's a high-risk, high-reward move. On D1, I would just take the almost certainly positive move of lynching scum as opposed to going for a high-risk play. If pie had been caught later with the town already down a few members, I'd probably support leashing him. As it played out, I think the town was actually quite lucky that leashing pie turned out the way it did. With three shots, he hit one mafia and two townies. The two townies he hit were both pure VTs (quite lucky considering how few VTs there were), and were players who were potential mislynches. I think leashing him did in fact help the town win this, but if ArcAngel and wayne had been two of the important power roles instead of VTs, it could have easily swung the other way.

I was initially upset with pie when he claimed SK because I thought he wasn't playing to win, but after that, I do think he played as well as he could to stay alive as long as possible. There was actually a chance on D4 where, if he could have forced a mislynch, he had the potential to get into endgame by stoking paranoia that there were five mafia. He ended up getting lynched, but he impressed me with his play after getting caught, and I really changed my view of him as a player. FTR, this is the second time I've run a setup with an SK, and both times, the SK has gotten caught/lynched D1. That throws a huge wrench in how I envisioned the game playing out, but it was still interesting to watch.

I also was very frustrated with the amount of replace-out threats that went on in this game. I had to talk multiple people out of qutting (I don't even remember the exact number). I get that things can get heated and people get upset, but threatening to quit if you don't get your way just isn't cool. It's not in trust-tell territory, but it's very much an external influence. I didn't want to levy any punishments in game because I think that would have hurt the game more than the original infractions would have, but zoraster is aware of what was going on and was planning to discuss things with the other list mods. If you are legitimately getting angry and ragequitting, but this only happens as one alignment, that ruins games and needs to stop.

I think both the town and mafia made some missteps this game. AGar played quite well and avoided suspicion for most of the game. He really had very little chance of winning once his buddies were killed and it was all up to him. I think maybe he could have realized kanye's claim was fake (PGO that only activates on kill attempts with no town vigs = super overpowered), but since he was the last remaining scum, he probably couldn't have risked killing him even if he suspected as much. Titus had some good moments too, but I still think the anytime vig claim was a bad idea. Nacho and DV were caught through their own day play.

Town nearly imploded on itself due to the lynch/leash debate, and I certainly can't say it was an entire team effort, but there were some notable performances. Majiffy was almost solely responsible for catching pie on D1, and his reads were otherwise pretty good as well. kanye had some misreads early on, but was deadly accurate after pie was lynched. His PGO claim was smart as well. Pyro/Tammy also played well, protecting three night kills (though she was blocked on one of the attempts). Natirasha and Beli played a solid game too. It's difficult for me to say which team "deserved" to win, as both town and mafia had good and not so good play, but it came down to 3-player lylo and, if not for kanye, could have easily gone in either direction, so I guess the result reflects how close it was.

Ragequtting threats aside, I had a fun time designing and modding this setup, and I hope everyone had fun playing. In case you were wondering, I do not have any plans to run a Gundam SEED Destiny game, mostly because I hated GSD, even though it might actually make for a cool setup. If I ever did, I'd probably run it with no flavor. I haven't decided what I'll do next. I have a few ideas that might be better suited for micros, but I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks everyone for playing!

[AGar]

I think maybe he could have realized kanye's claim was fake (PGO that only activates on kill attempts with no town vigs = super overpowered), but since he was the last remaining scum, he probably couldn't have risked killing him even if he suspected as much.

I saw no chance I could justifiably make that shot on a hunch (because it read as gambit to me, but I'm notoriously bad at picking up on roletells), and then I saw some opportunity in keeping him around when the suspicion started cropping up about his claim a bit.

The Levi shot was probably the worst shot I could've taken. In retrospect, I should've killed Kanye knowing that he had been valuable enough to protect the night before. But I didn't see a Levi lynch going through with the knowledge that the 1v1 kept cropping up and Nacho had just flipped scum.

For those interested, I have a tendency to vomit my thoughts as scum into a QT after all of my partners die

by my hand for the most part

. This game wasn't as much "planning" as it was paranoid freakouts, though.

[AGar]

And G Gundam, please and thanks.

[Sakura Hana]

I really apologize for replacing out tho, and im working on improving both in not being so overly emotional and overreactive and also in handling situations like the one presented here as well.

[Belisarius]

beli you can at least say you were right about clotho : ]

Oh, I've been ready for that:



I wish I hadn't looked at vote counts, though

[Kdub]

And G Gundam, please and thanks.

Haven't seen it. I'm only familiar with SEED, Destiny, Wing, and 00. And it's been so long since Wing that I probably would need to watch it again before thinking about making a setup based on it.

[Sakura Hana]

Wing

^
Would totes love that.

[talah]

Thanks heaps for the game Kdub.
You didn't miss a beat and the flavour/design was immensely enjoyable (and confusing heh); lots of fun to think about.

Props to AGar, for making it to endgame and notably not being lynched.

Full credit to kanye for the win. Amazing, incredible, etc etc.
You LEGEND YOU!

Thanks to all players as well. Including everyone I butted heads with. Bound to happen from time to time.

Ego's a hell of a drug.

[pieguyn]

Oh yeah, thanks for running it kdub!

+1 to this. game was mad frustrating but i liked the setup and the game was enjoyable @ the end of the day. as always looking 4ward to whatever you run next : ]

+1
thanks for the game Kdub <3

I was initially upset with pie when he claimed SK because I thought he wasn't playing to win, but after that, I do think he played as well as he could to stay alive as long as possible. There was actually a chance on D4 where, if he could have forced a mislynch, he had the potential to get into endgame by stoking paranoia that there were five mafia. He ended up getting lynched, but he impressed me with his play after getting caught, and I really changed my view of him as a player. FTR, this is the second time I've run a setup with an SK, and both times, the SK has gotten caught/lynched D1. That throws a huge wrench in how I envisioned the game playing out, but it was still interesting to watch.

I'm still butthurt at being caught D1. my entire play D2/D3 consisted of taking cheap potshots at people and hiding

also I legitimately thought there were 4 mafia left. the playing up paranoia about 4 mafia was so random and spur of the moment lmao

[Belisarius]

And G Gundam, please and thanks.

Haven't seen it. I'm only familiar with SEED, Destiny, Wing, and 00. And it's been so long since Wing that I probably would need to watch it again before thinking about making a setup based on it.

So no UC series at all?

I'm sorry.

I'm so, so sorry.

[Kdub]

Wing

^
Would totes love that.

Like I said, I'd probably need to watch it again. I barely remember anything about the plot other than the five main characters/suits.

So no UC series at all?

I'm sorry.

I'm so, so sorry.

I keep wanting to watch MSG/Zeta/ZZ, but it's just such a huge time sink and I don't want to watch one, then come back months later. I want to watch them all back to back eventually.

[Belisarius]

You can skip ZZ, it's shite.

But not 0083 or 08th MS Team.

[AGar]

Props to AGar, for making it to endgame and notably not being lynched.

Gratzi.

[Nachomamma8]

god damn AGar
you're the shit man

[AGar]

god damn AGar
you're the shit man

But I didn't win.

[Titus]

This was the funnest scum game I have had to date. I encouraged shooting majiffy and then arguing scum were framing me. Nacho wanted to kill Kanye. I should have listened to Nacho. Beyond that, I was thrilled with this game. I really enjoyed it. I expected to be dead much sooner than I was. Keeping Pie alive and stroking the leash versus lynch debate really helped. Wake and Wayne were both very emotional players. By patronizing them and scumreading them, I could fuel the debate about leash versus lynch. They'd have to comply and trust me in order to actually get Pie lynched but that wasn't going to happen since I was playing Arrogant Professor or Scumfuckery Titus. I was laughing so hard at some points.

I do realize that this was heated though, so if anyone has any problems with what I did, let me know.

[Nachomamma8]

leviathan93 - Tolle Koenig, killed Night 6
Kise Svenskt Stål StefanB TiphaineDeath - Kojiro Murdoch, lynched Day 7
Natirasha - Lacus Clyne, killed Night 7
PeregrineV - Cagalli Yula Athha, pilot of the Strike Rouge Gundam, lynched Day 8
Sakura Hana EspeciallyTheLies - Miriallia Haw, killed Night 8
kanyeknowsbest - Yzak Joule, pilot of the Duel Gundam, lynched Day 9

AGar, all of these townies are the townies you killed.
You got the three mislynches we needed for the win and only lost because of vengeful LyLo shenanigans, which counts as a win for us in my heart.
Keep in mind you did this with zero help from me in setting things up; the only lynch I vetted for you was leviathan and you didn't even need that one.