667: Random C9 (Game Over!)

[charter]

Four days to deadline.

charter, kuribo, Sotty7. Now would be a good time to discuss who among JDodge and myself you'll vote for. Questions are welcome.

You didn't discuss who you would vote for for like ten days before deadline.

Did we all die in the crash or are we just waiting for something to happen?

we're all just stubborn

Are you happy keeping your vote on charter now? Or will you be swtiching to one of JDodge or Vi?

And Vi, you keep saying you will look back over chater v Kuribo... I for one would really like to know where you stand on that issue.

That would have been an important one to answer I think.

And my asking you over and over why the GF would counterclaim (oh wait, he didn't, did he kuribo?)

And I thought I had made it abundantly clear, repeatedly, that I thought Vi was scum?

I didn't that's who you thought was scum.

[kuribo]

That would have been an important one to answer I think.

Can't answer questions while I'm at work, buckwheat.

[kuribo]

And stop with the "ten days before deadline" crap, since I've reminded you that the site was down for a considerable period during that ten days.

[kuribo]

As for why the GF would counter-claim, you're basically using a disagreement in mafia theory, salted with some WIFOM to try and paint me as scum, which is a pretty piss-poor case to begin with. "The GF wouldn't counter-claim" is so WIFOM laden because you DON'T KNOW what the Godfather would do. (well, YOU would)

So now you're saying, "It would make no sense for the GF to counter-claim, and he didn't." So why DIDN'T you counter-claim? Oh right, you said it would make no sense.*


* I'm pointing out how stupid the whole "Godfather wouldn't counter-claim" argument is.

[charter]

So the site was only down for this thread? Not the other ones?

[kuribo]

So the site was only down for this thread? Not the other ones?

that's not what I said, what I said is that you keep pointing to "lolololol 10 days," when you yourself were gone from this thread for 8.

What's the difference between 8 and 10 days? (and "2" is not the correct answer)

[charter]

Well you were happily posting in other threads after site downtime. I posted in this one when I got back from vacation. Once again, you're trying to say that me going on vacation is scummy rather than trying to find actions within this game that make me scum. Besides, I posted plenty in this thread in the few days before deadline.

[kuribo]

Well you were happily posting in other threads after site downtime. I posted in this one when I got back from vacation. Once again, you're trying to say that me going on vacation is scummy rather than trying to find actions within this game that make me scum. Besides, I posted plenty in this thread in the few days before deadline.

But, I already posted the actions that made you scum, and if I recall correctly, you had no satisfying answer for those questions.

[charter]

Can we get a prod on sotty please

[Sotty7]

Sorry. I am here, but I just need to set aside some time to sort through and chose between you two.

I thought that I would be happliy voting charter at this point, but kuribo's lurking and his general attitude today has really put a spanner in that plan. Expect something more substantial from me tomorrow when I have some free time to devote to the game and a re-read.

[Sotty7]

Okay, I've been reading and I'm almost done with the game up to page 22. Right now I'm tried and if I keep going I don't think I will be making sense of anything. So I am going to step away and finish up tomorrow. But before I go, I wanted to ask kuribo a couple of questions about a post I just read.

Vi- Having looked over things, I still don't like Vi, but it's entirely possible that I'm biased because I didn't like him on my first readthrough, either. I've already laid out why I think he's Mafia. Although, more recently, I think he's approaching the setup with a more open mind than JDodge.

I don't like the case he laid out about why the cop claim shouldn't be valid. Of course it's valid.

JDodge- I don't like the idea that he wants to lynch either charter or myself today. Considering we have two claimed docs, and that neither setup allows this, it's clear that one of them is lying, and almost certainly scum. So he'd rather take a chance on lynching two of the unknowns? I don't like it.

charter- Some of his behavior of late has disturbed me. He seems to have flip flopped back and forth a bit about Sche, and there have been other concerns raised by others.

I'm leaning town for charter, but also because there's no point in lynching anyone besides one of the claimed docs.

Sche- Alot of his behavior pre-claim is disturbing, but that's why he was forced to claim.

I mostly believe him at this point

, but of course I know that if we make the right lynch today, there's always time to return to Sche tomorrow.

So basically, I'm torn between the two obvious choices. I haven't decided yet if Vi's recent behavior is actually scummy to me, or if I'm biased because I found so much of his behavior before to be scummy.

They're both also speculating about who the other scum is.

Keep in mind that one of them actually is scum.

(because we make the assumption that only the world's most retarded townie would lie about being a doc in LYLO)

There are a couple of things that bug me here.

The first is you 180 on Vi because in post 494 you say you don't like Vi's attempts to sort the game out. Now he's the open minded one. You also state that you don't like how Vi questions the cop claim going as far as to say it's a valid claim.

When you talk about charter you mention how he has been scummy but then you say you are leaning town on him. This really does not add up if you believe the cop claim to be valid.

Talking about Sche you say you believe him for now, but leave room to return to him if needs be.... So how is there room for charter to be town at this point? The only way is if you believed JDodge and Vi are scum together pulling off a crazy gambit...

But you never even entertain that idea. You say

one

of them must be scum.

So if you believe Sche's cop claim.
And yet are leaning towards charter being town...
Why didn't you put out the thought that Vi and JDodge are scum? Because that's the only way this can all work, without you being scum.

Out of all the posts I have read so far this truly is the most damning in my eyes at this point. To me it looks like you where the one that over played his hand at this point. I will say that you where going back and forth about the cop claim like crazy. However in this post you state that you believe the claim at least twice. So what gives?

I'll be back tomorrow with more.

[charter]

When you talk about charter you mention how he has been scummy but then you say you are leaning town on him. This really does not add up if you believe the cop claim to be valid.

Talking about Sche you say you believe him for now, but leave room to return to him if needs be.... So how is there room for charter to be town at this point? The only way is if you believed JDodge and Vi are scum together pulling off a crazy gambit...

But you never even entertain that idea. You say

one

of them must be scum.

So if you believe Sche's cop claim.
And yet are leaning towards charter being town...
Why didn't you put out the thought that Vi and JDodge are scum? Because that's the only way this can all work, without you being scum.

Heh. That's a pretty good catch Sotty. That was right after jdodge countered. I know I didn't immediately assume that both doctors weren't scum, it took me a LONG time before I was ready to make the assumption that you were cop and that only one of those doctors was scum. Here kuribo slips that he knows it isn't a scum gambit and that just one is scum.

[kuribo]

Okay, I've been reading and I'm almost done with the game up to page 22. Right now I'm tried and if I keep going I don't think I will be making sense of anything. So I am going to step away and finish up tomorrow. But before I go, I wanted to ask kuribo a couple of questions about a post I just read.

Vi- Having looked over things, I still don't like Vi, but it's entirely possible that I'm biased because I didn't like him on my first readthrough, either. I've already laid out why I think he's Mafia. Although, more recently, I think he's approaching the setup with a more open mind than JDodge.

I don't like the case he laid out about why the cop claim shouldn't be valid. Of course it's valid.

JDodge- I don't like the idea that he wants to lynch either charter or myself today. Considering we have two claimed docs, and that neither setup allows this, it's clear that one of them is lying, and almost certainly scum. So he'd rather take a chance on lynching two of the unknowns? I don't like it.

charter- Some of his behavior of late has disturbed me. He seems to have flip flopped back and forth a bit about Sche, and there have been other concerns raised by others.

I'm leaning town for charter, but also because there's no point in lynching anyone besides one of the claimed docs.

Sche- Alot of his behavior pre-claim is disturbing, but that's why he was forced to claim.

I mostly believe him at this point

, but of course I know that if we make the right lynch today, there's always time to return to Sche tomorrow.

So basically, I'm torn between the two obvious choices. I haven't decided yet if Vi's recent behavior is actually scummy to me, or if I'm biased because I found so much of his behavior before to be scummy.

They're both also speculating about who the other scum is.

Keep in mind that one of them actually is scum.

(because we make the assumption that only the world's most retarded townie would lie about being a doc in LYLO)

There are a couple of things that bug me here.

The first is you 180 on Vi because in post 494 you say you don't like Vi's attempts to sort the game out. Now he's the open minded one. You also state that you don't like how Vi questions the cop claim going as far as to say it's a valid claim.

When you talk about charter you mention how he has been scummy but then you say you are leaning town on him. This really does not add up if you believe the cop claim to be valid.

Talking about Sche you say you believe him for now, but leave room to return to him if needs be.... So how is there room for charter to be town at this point? The only way is if you believed JDodge and Vi are scum together pulling off a crazy gambit...

But you never even entertain that idea. You say

one

of them must be scum.

So if you believe Sche's cop claim.
And yet are leaning towards charter being town...
Why didn't you put out the thought that Vi and JDodge are scum? Because that's the only way this can all work, without you being scum.

Out of all the posts I have read so far this truly is the most damning in my eyes at this point. To me it looks like you where the one that over played his hand at this point. I will say that you where going back and forth about the cop claim like crazy. However in this post you state that you believe the claim at least twice. So what gives?

I'll be back tomorrow with more.

I said I MOSTLY believed it. I said that I also was leaning town on charter partly because I didn't see any point in lynching anyone besides either JDodge or Vi.

Heh. That's a pretty good catch Sotty. That was right after jdodge countered. I know I didn't immediately assume that both doctors weren't scum, it took me a LONG time before I was ready to make the assumption that you were cop and that only one of those doctors was scum. Here kuribo slips that he knows it isn't a scum gambit and that just one is scum.

It's not a good catch. I knew that as a Vanilla Townie, I couldn't possibly be a doctor. I also point out--- IN THE VERY POST QUOTED--- that in my view, it would have been retarded for a vanilla to claim doc at LYLO. I don't consider retarded options. So my conclusion was that one of them really was a doc, and one was scum. It's not that hard to noodle out.

See, Sotty, charter thinks he can get away with agreeing with you on stuff like this because he's played with me: he knows that I seldom think about who might be who's partners until scum is actually lynched. I don't go for that whole "X and Y are scum together," until we find out the alignment of one of them first.

[charter]

No kuribo. How did you already know that only one of them was the doc? How did you know that they both weren't scum? You are completely avoiding her question.

When have I played a game with you? I don't remember ever being in a game with you before, what game was it? So no, I don't know that you seldom think about partners until scum are lynched.

[Sotty7]

The issue really is your leaning towards charter being town more than anything else. With everything else you say in that post, you couldn't possibly be leaning towards charter being town, because there just isn't room for him if you truly are a townie.

You say you mostly believe the cop claim. You talk about it being valid. This means at this point you mostly believe Sche/myself to be the cop and therefor town.

You then say you are “leaning town” for charter. The follow up point about not lynching the two docs is correct, but really should have no effect on how you feel about charter. In fact his alignment seems to be pretty independent to that whole issue.

These two statements just don't fit at all. We had five players left. Yourself, charter, JDodge, Vi and myself. Two of which are scum. So going off your words. You think that Sche is likely town. You think charter is likely town. If we are to believe you are town then right there is the three townies.

This means logically you should at least moderately suspect that JDodge and Vi are the scum team. Even if you pitched it as a crazy idea, then this post might make sense. But you didn't. In fact you went as far as stating that only one of the claimed docs is scum.

That would make 4 townies. Which is impossible.

So the problem I have with post kurio is the fact there is just too many “likely” townies.

But yeah, I'm going to have some lunch then watch “Lie to me” before finishing my re-read. I have been taking some notes and I will see about sorting them out to be more readable so you can both see my train of thought.

[kuribo]

No kuribo. How did you already know that only one of them was the doc? How did you know that they both weren't scum? You are completely avoiding her question.

I'm not avoiding the question, I'm adhering to common sense which says it would be stupid for both scum to claim doc against one another.

[kuribo]

When have I played a game with you? I don't remember ever being in a game with you before, what game was it? So no, I don't know that you seldom think about partners until scum are lynched.

Are you quite sure? I could swear we have.

[kuribo]

Ah wait, I see now:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6958

That's the game I was thinking of, you replaced out of it.

[charter]

No kuribo. How did you already know that only one of them was the doc? How did you know that they both weren't scum? You are completely avoiding her question.

I'm not avoiding the question, I'm adhering to common sense which says it would be stupid for both scum to claim doc against one another.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!
How can you apply common sense now but not with the GF countering scenario? Plus, both scum claiming doc would not be stupid. Say Jdodge/Vi were the scum team. They both claim, no one else claims, we lynch one of them. Then Sotty would investigate me at night, and I'd die. It would be between lynching you with an innocent on your or a doc. There is no way that that scenario is stupid.

I also note how you don't bother responding to Sotty but just continually throw terrible logic around trying to paint me as scum. It's ironic because I know you're scum, so you arguing with me isn't going to do anything. You're not even trying to defend good arguments being brought up against you by someone who isn't convinced you are scum.

[kuribo]

I didn't respond to Sotty, because I already explained the reason for "so many likely townies," in that I scumhunt one scum at a time.

[Sotty7]

Okay I'm finished. I could post my PBPA on both you guys and have you bicker over it for a little while I ponder my vote, but that really doesn't sound much like fun to me. Really shouldn't you guys be the one's making the cases? Ah well.

In a nutshell. The case against charter:

-Softly defends JDodge mostly by going after his attackers (posts 35, 39, 52, 72, 99, 222, 313)

-Constantly doubting the cop claim (152, 176, 259)

-JDodge defended him (466, 469)

-Didn't think afatchic was scum at all day one. Was happy to lynch him however because it would have been “informative” (230, 259, 317)

-His day 2 reason that JDodge was scum is gut. Ick (521, 541, 614, 616)

In a nutshell the case against afatchic/kuribo

-Softly defends JDodge (41, 72, 470)

-His late reaction to the Moo claim. (61, 66, 110)

-JDodge's vote/case on him feeling very much like a opportunistic bus considering the town feel at the time and the quickness of JDodge's unvote once kuribo replaces in (117, 155, 258, 303, 304, 364)

-Parrots JDodge on breadcrumbing (159)

-Come day 2, doesn't attempt to discuss with JDodge despite being named as Vi's likely partner (496, 497)

-Post 510! Too many townies, plus the fact he never questions the doc claim or counterclaim. This is pretty strange seeing as he was all over Vi about being scummy, I would have thought it would have drew out a bigger reaction from him than what we got. It seems that every time I read post 510 I find another strange thing.

-Voting for charter despite saying that we shouldn't lynch outside the two claimed docs (510, 544, 546, 548)

-Trying to claim the site was down for a number of days. It was down for two and half, 3 at the most. Looking at his posting history from the 8th of Jan when the site came back, till the 11th when we lynched JDodge and he had a total of 29 posts. Posting in a total of 5 games as well as in mafia and general discussion. Only 1 non content post in this game which was at deadline. Also tries to use other varying reasons for why he didn't post so close to the deadline. (636, 638, 643, 646, 647, 651, 652, 655)

-Tries to make charter look scummy for being on vacation (639, 655)

So real when I lay it out simply like this, I have to....

Vote: kuribo

Time to cross my fingers and close my eyes....

[kuribo]

gg scum

[kuribo]

nono, i'm kidding, just wanted to scare you Sotty

gg town

[Sotty7]

You did a good job, I almost had a heart attack

[charter]

Sweet. Good work Sotty.