Real life = Absence, sorry.
PO:
I commented that I found a lot of it pro-town in tone? :/ I openly admitted I hadn't had a scum read on you until the deadline actions. But how you've summarized what I was saying about you over the deadline actions is not what I was saying about you.
Maybe we just have a difference in vocabulary here. I never pushed a lynch on you because I said your actions were "anti-town" -- I pushed a lynch because I thought they were scummy, and I do try to make a distinction between those things.
Anti-town actions aren't necessarily scummy, but they CAN be. (And most scummy actions are anti-town by definition). Lurking can be anti-town, but if one's doing it to stay out of the limelight as a powerrole, it's not necessarily scummy. Clamming up like Hanzo did early in the thread, then Nacho later, can be anti-town, but there can also be town reasons for clamming up. Doing crazy stuff like Hanzo was doing can be anti-town, but he could honestly think that he was doing it for reasons that were good for the town.
I'm rather confused here, and I seriously don't know what you're expecting or looking for in a case. I went after you because I thought your actions came from scum motivation, not town motivation. I don't know how many more ways I can say this.
Yes, it does seem like a difference in vocabulary. What you are saying about me implies that you think I was anti-town during the deadline play (in my vocabulary) and you put suspicion on me because after Idle, everyone else has acted less anti-townish than me. To me, scummy means constant scum-slips, while anti-town means just plain bad play.
I would have called it scummy, and you scum. One can do anti-town things without being scum. Again, maybe it's just a disagreement in vocabulary here, but I still don't understand why you keep trying to say what I did was a policy lynch.
And I'm pretty sure that indeed what you are saying is a policy lynch (in my vocabulary) because basing a case on only anti-town things (things that come only from scum motivation) is pretty much a policy lynch. You could say that my pushing on muh was also a policy lynch, mainly because I didn't receive the same scum-vibes from some of Idle's slips that Nacho pointed out and of course muh was more anti-town compared to Idle. The closest you get to a case on me is:
I had a decent town read on Newbie throughout the rest of the thread, up until this, actually. Forcing a self-hammer, though, is hard for me get around. He says that it's accepted practice on the other site he plays at, though, so it IS possible there was no scummy or malicious intent in what he did. In which case (b) would be the more likely scenario, and I need to more seriously explore options other than Newbie.
Which is about the closest I got to a case on muh.
But we had no idea at the time that there even WAS a cop, and you were very specific in singling out Nacho. If he was breadcrumbing cop, he obviously had decided not to say anything about it then. If all you wanted to say was "if a cop has two innocent reads, or even just one, he should claim"-- then say it more vaguely like that, and avoid drawing attention to the person that you think might be the cop. If you wanted Nacho to give an actual reason for his reads, then simply yell at him to give his reasons. Obviously Hopp and my latching onto the matter forced it far more into the limelight -- but once you brought up the possibility of a specific player being the cop, the cat was out of the bag, so to speak, and any anonymity and choice in the matter he might have preserved was gone.
It just seemed so obvious a potential breadcrumb that I pointed it out to get other townies to see it. If I were the final scum, it would've been better for me to ask the cop to claim instead of asking for a Nacho-claim because I know that Nacho did not investigate me, so there's not any scum motivation behind that singling-out action. Not saying that me saying that would mean that I = scum because of the WIFOM argument, just saying that it is not anti-town to state the cop-read. And I'm sure that if I wanted a cop claim, I would have to be asked why, and then I have to bring up the Nacho case to support my claim anyways. So to me it felt like claiming Nacho-cop-read was justified.
I stated in that very post itself that I gave my reads because I thought it was already apparent where I stood. (And as you note later, I fuzzed the Hoppster/Nacho line).
I also wasn't 100% certain it was bad to give reads -- I was waiting on Nacho's response before I made a final call on that. Though I think my "it's already pretty evident from my posting" sentence indicates where my doubts lay, and that the following paragraph made it clear I thought there might seriously be a disadvantage to answering your questions. I even made sure to put in an "if there's no drawback" in my counter-question to you.
I was also quite wary of giving you advice, because I thought you were the most likely scum candidate if Song flipped town. For the previous reasons mentioned, but very much compounded by the fact you had asked us all for our reads, but hadn't volunteered your own. I didn't see you acting in good faith there at all. (This is also one of the reasons I went after muh early in the thread -- asking a set of questions of other people, but not answering them himself)
It is never good to give out reads unless someone requests such reads. Of course, I totally expected someone to ask for the read, but in case some people went inactive and D-3 neared deadline I would conceal my reads to myself due to a lack of interest.
It looks like your reasoning for voting for Song was ostensibly pragmatic -- you didn't think she was the scummiest, but (somehow?) thought it would best narrow down town options to lynch her? In neither scenario would Newbie (the person you said you personally thought was the scummiest) have a chance of getting lynched, however. Either Song would be scum, and we'd be done, or Song would be town, and we'd lynch Nacho. So what made you eliminate Newbie as a lynch option at that point?
The only real thing I see scummy about this is the fact that Hoppster buddies up to Nacho quite a bit. However, this is consistent with his Doc-protect of Nacho. The only real problem is that I still don't buy Hoppster's PO protect on N3. I mean, if you get town vibes from PO but basically sheep Nacho until he is wrong, won't a Nacho-protect be better? Nacho really backed down from the Song lynch during the middle of D-3, and PO and then I pushed it back up. At around the same time, you backed down from the Song lynch as well, and you weren't even on the Song wagon as Song got hammered.
If I were scum, I would never have stated a theory like this, knowing that it could possibly be turned around and used on me like this. It would have been pretty blatantly suicidal. I voiced it because, even though I saw that it could possibly implicate me as well, I thought it pointed to Newbie as scum. (If people thought it was a decent argument, but I ended up getting lynched for it instead of Newbie, I hoped people might continue it and get Newbie with a later lynch). As scum, I would have every motivation in the world to try to steer discussion away the deadline matter, and certainly to avoid naming buddy-saving as a top suspicion of mine. As town (and a powerrole-less town at that), however, I would not have motivation to avoid it, if I thought it was likely the truth. Which I did think it was, because I thought Idle was very likely scum, and as I saw no town motivation (at that point) for Newbie's actions.
Why did you not state that fact here:
At that point in the game, both Hoppster and myself were including ourselves in our lists of suspects whenever we thought our analysis and sets of options pointed to us as well as anyone else. I think we both stopped doing that later on (?), but at that point, we were still engaging in the practice. The statement you quote was the summary/conclusion of my a-b-c-d-e listing previously in the post, where I listed myself as a suspect several times. Given the listing, it would also have been strange if I'd said "grill Newbie, but not me," when I hadn't yet laid out the various ways I thought your actions and my actions differed that night. I didn't like the fact that my own conclusions pointed to me as a top suspect, but they did, and I couldn't avoid it, so thus counted on the differences coming to light and being discussed once people started examining both of us.
This is the second time you are talking about the abcde casework thing, and it seems as if you are changing your standpoint, from saying that it would be awkward to saying that it was not anti-town.
If you plan to use that as part your voting rationale, you should probably also consider this post.
Where in that post do I relate to Idle's posts? If you are saying that me saying Idle is active lurking is your analogy, you should note that I pointed that out for muh even more so and first. If you are saying that my 15 games comment, muh brought that up before I did. I only picked it up because muh said something about it.
And about the replacements thing, I don't see any relation at all.
I believe he was ripping off whatever he could find, perhaps with help from whoever his scum partner was, perhaps not. The fact that you attacked Idle's attempt at a case (with some apparent misunderstanding of it), while Newbie goes out of his way to clarify what Idle was saying and help him forward, is one of the things that makes me lean Newbie-scum over you scum. If he got any coaching in making his case, it was from Newbie. (CF the quotes references in the last part of this post).
Agree 100%.
You could still be scum, but have just decided to leave him to his own devices, I suppose -- you weren't around at deadline, and he was probably going to be the day's lynch, so I think you would have considered him already as good as lynched.
Actually, if anyone bussed Idle, it would be either Hoppster or Nacho. Hoppster's unvote of muh in post 297
I agree with Ragnarokio that, although acting scummy, IT's behaviour could just be inexperience. IT may be a better case than muh, I agree, but I firmly believe that Song should be the one to be lynched (first at least).
VOTE: Song
Is actually most of the momentum that shifted the muh wagon to the Idle wagon. Not that bussing is a huge scum-tell, because it didn't really hint to relations between Hoppster and Idle.
PREVIEW EDIT:
Trying to redo this without falling into that problem: I believe there is a case to be made that I would have very little scum motivation to propose such a theory, but quite a bit of town motivation to do so. I don't know if this avoids the WIFOM problem -- it may just disguise it in fancier words, but it's the gist of part of what I was trying to communicate.
It doesn't matter. Null-town actions are still null-town and not anti-town.
Also, forgot one thing:
(a) Idle's scum, and his buddy was making a last-ditch move to try and save him. (Newbie or me = other mafia)
(b) Idle's scum, and his buddy was sitting on the sidelines after bussing him, letting Newbie and me argue ourselves blue in the face. (Song, Nacho, Hoppster, or LordChaos = other mafia)
(c) Idle's town, and the mafia were snug in their beds, secure in a town lynch. (Song, Nacho, Hopp, Chaos = possible mafia)
(d) Idle's town, and Newbie was trying a ridiculously risky push for a role claim while his buddy slept soundly. (Newbie = mafia, everyone else but me = possible mafia. )
(e) Idle's town, and both mafia are idiots made a ridiculously risky push for a role claim. (Newbie and me = mafia)
You are saying that if I am scum, then I made a ridiculous risk for the muh roleclaim.
His was a quite methodical push for a self-hammer...trying to blame it on time constraints or pressure or whatnot would be stupid for a scum version of him. If he's town - yes, he's being honest and consistent, and saying what he really was thinking. And if he's scum, he's presenting a consistent rationalization and defense of his actions. Because blaming his actions on time constraints and pressure would be contradictory and suicidal -- based on his deadline posts it's obvious he WAS thinking through what he was doing then.
So I took a ridiculous risk, but I also knew what I was doing?
) and scum were just a bit less creative with their thought process or whatnot.
Paticularly as I still believe there's a possibility of Newbie being scum now.