Newbie 682 - Mayhem in Umore - Game Over, Scum Win!

[Drench]

Okay. As for caf...

Get. In. Here.

Please.

[caf19]

Post coming up later today, sorry for the wait...

[caf19]

- dej's 'following' of the arguments against Mirth, as nureins flagged up in 462?

I assume you're speaking of Page One where dej saw nureins' meta argument and jumped on it.

I was more referring to nur's post 462 referring to dej's post 460, but it's the same sort of accusations of 'following'. I thought you might want to refer more to the arguments presented in 462 if you were building a case against dej, but I guess it's your case not mine. Still...

a) Trigger happy townie who thought they had found scum already,
b) Utter newbie who had nearly no idea what was going on, and
c) Scum trying to give the bandwagon momentum.

From the reasons and reactions that dej gave (namely, not knowing about not needing a vote (could be lie) and feeling that the meta argument was the most suspicious thing in the first 2 pages) I believe that c) is most likely, followed very closely by b), and then a).

Perhaps you're right on the possibilities, but if dej was scum trying to spin up a wagon (as you're suggesting), do you think he actually intended that Mirth case to lead to a Mirth lynch? I'm asking because I tend to see that exchange as very early on (therefore very unlikely to lead to a lynch) and not as significant as later exchanges; I find it somewhat puzzling that it forms a central part of your dej case.

I thought your (caf) first reaction was a bit subdued.

My reactions to most things tend to be subdued. It's just a trait of mine, which I guess could come in handy for games of mafia

I assume he means Days Two and Three. The accusation in regards to Caf seems not to be totally out of place. Several times during Days Two and Three you say that a Mirth lynch is your choice, but you actually never vote him. In fact, during those two days, the only vote you made was a hammer on Mirth at the end of Day Three. Other than that, your vote went to waste during that time. You seemed to just be fence-sitting.

For dej, I saw 2 votes during that period. One was a hammer and one was a L-1. Throughout the day, you seem to not be pinning down suspects. Rather, you offer opinions about people. You only voted when everyone else was going that way. This for me also seems to fit the bill where Mirth's accusation is concerned. You are tight with your vote, always waiting until the majority would agree. Looking deeper, this may be a drive to appear as innocent as you can. This just raises my suspicion more.

In conclusion, a list.

Caf = 1/10 Scumminess

Dej = 7/10 Scumminess

Not that I'm eager to complain about being 1/10 scummy, but it seems that in this extract you're accusing dej and me of fairly equal things - me of being tight and fence-sitting with my vote, and dej of being tight and opportunistic with his. Yet there's a 6-point gap between us on your ranking. I understand there are other factors that push dej up, but what makes dej the scummier in this particular case?

dej's responses to Drench's case seem to make sense to me.

With regards to analysis of Chuck's scumlist, I don't actually think much can be gained from it. Chuck wasn't voting for dej when he made the post, so it's equally likely to be scumbuddy distancing as it is to be attacking a townie. (And it's fairly Wifom-ridden to try and decipher which is the correct situation, imo). Similarly, not much can be worked out from his position on Serous. Do you two agree? Disagree?

[Drench]

I was more referring to nur's post 462 referring to dej's post 460, but it's the same sort of accusations of 'following'. I thought you might want to refer more to the arguments presented in 462 if you were building a case against dej, but I guess it's your case not mine. Still...

I'll take this opportunity to say thank you for responding, as I do't really see anything to respond to in there.

Perhaps you're right on the possibilities, but if dej was scum trying to spin up a wagon (as you're suggesting), do you think he actually intended that Mirth case to lead to a Mirth lynch? I'm asking because I tend to see that exchange as very early on (therefore very unlikely to lead to a lynch) and not as significant as later exchanges; I find it somewhat puzzling that it forms a central part of your dej case.

I think (going along the scenarios listed) that the actions dej took fit under a) or c). Now, under scenario a), dej is just a trigger happy townie, making you scum. But, you've been acting very pro-town, which strikes a blatant contradiction. Therefore, we must for now fold scenario a). Under c), dej is a murderous mafioso. At this stage, everyone has a clear motive that hasn't been muddled. The motives that can be seen from dej's L-2 are scenarios a) and c). After this, dej himself said everyone saw him as neutral. Not town, not scum, but neutral. You, on the other hand was seen as the most pro-town player of the lot. In my perspective, one of you are scum. Is it the neutral, or is it the pro-town?

Not that I'm eager to complain about being 1/10 scummy, but it seems that in this extract you're accusing dej and me of fairly equal things - me of being tight and fence-sitting with my vote, and dej of being tight and opportunistic with his. Yet there's a 6-point gap between us on your ranking. I understand there are other factors that push dej up, but what makes dej the scummier in this particular case?

Firstly, I'd like to point out there's been an update (namely 2/10 vs 5/10).

Also, from your response it seems you believe the list applies only to voting patterns. It applies to the whole game.

Caf, you appeared pro-town from the start. From the start, people were marking you helpful, concise and such. Everyone thought you were town. They still do. It just seems less scummy than the neutral dej. As for dej's high number, the reasons above pretty much outline what drove the number that high. The only motive that doesn't contradict the opinions of everyone, the neutrality of his play everywhere else, the perspective I have, it all sends the number 1 or 2 points higher.

With regards to analysis of Chuck's scumlist, I don't actually think much can be gained from it. Chuck wasn't voting for dej when he made the post, so it's equally likely to be scumbuddy distancing as it is to be attacking a townie. (And it's fairly Wifom-ridden to try and decipher which is the correct situation, imo). Similarly, not much can be worked out from his position on Serous. Do you two agree? Disagree?

I do tend to agree with what you say.As you say, it is a big bundle of WIFOM. However, even a little silver of information can be gleaned from it, even if inconsequential.

[caf19]

Inconsistencies are creeping into Drench's posts, it seems. Let's have a look:

I think (going along the scenarios listed) that the actions dej took fit under a) or c). Now, under scenario a), dej is just a trigger happy townie, making you scum. But, you've been acting very pro-town, which strikes a blatant contradiction. Therefore, we must for now fold scenario a). Under c), dej is a murderous mafioso. At this stage, everyone has a clear motive that hasn't been muddled. The motives that can be seen from dej's L-2 are scenarios a) and c). After this, dej himself said everyone saw him as neutral. Not town, not scum, but neutral. You, on the other hand was seen as the most pro-town player of the lot. In my perspective, one of you are scum. Is it the neutral, or is it the pro-town?

This logic is somewhat contradictory. Here, it's a process of elimination based on the fact that I'm pro town and can't be scum (in other words, it's a result of my actions, not dej's). Only a few posts ago however, it was to do with dej's behaviour at the time and seemingly nothing to do with me:

From the reasons and reactions that dej gave (namely, not knowing about not needing a vote (could be lie) and feeling that the meta argument was the most suspicious thing in the first 2 pages) I believe that c) is most likely, followed very closely by b), and then a).

Has that much really changed between those two posts?

Moving on, that process-of-elimination argument is also echoed here:

Caf, you appeared pro-town from the start. From the start, people were marking you helpful, concise and such. Everyone thought you were town. They still do. It just seems less scummy than the neutral dej. As for dej's high number, the reasons above pretty much outline what drove the number that high. The only motive that doesn't contradict the opinions of everyone, the neutrality of his play everywhere else, the perspective I have, it all sends the number 1 or 2 points higher.

All of which is rather contradictory to the sentiment expressed in 591:

Furthermore, I believe that this is not a case of 'who's less pro-town', but rather 'who's more scummy'.

This is in fact the exact opposite of what you've been doing, which is to suspect a neutral player over a pro-town player, entirely a 'who's less pro-town' method. I'm beginning to think that ostensibly 'pro-town' sentiments such as that one are merely empty words used to get on the good side of the other players.

Let's hear a response. Comments from dej would also be good.

[massive]

Tentative deadline is set at one week from right now. May be lifted due to the holidays.

[dejkha]

With regards to analysis of Chuck's scumlist, I don't actually think much can be gained from it. Chuck wasn't voting for dej when he made the post, so it's equally likely to be scumbuddy distancing as it is to be attacking a townie. (And it's fairly Wifom-ridden to try and decipher which is the correct situation, imo). Similarly, not much can be worked out from his position on Serous. Do you two agree? Disagree?

I agree. I didn't think much could be gained from it, but it couldn't hurt to throw it out there. You never know when someone may slip up.

Furthermore, I believe that this is not a case of 'who's less pro-town', but rather 'who's more scummy'.

This is in fact the exact opposite of what you've been doing, which is to suspect a neutral player over a pro-town player, entirely a 'who's less pro-town' method. I'm beginning to think that ostensibly 'pro-town' sentiments such as that one are merely empty words used to get on the good side of the other players.

I noticed that as well, but I wont elaborate since I'd only be restating what you already said (not much other way to put it). As for the other inconsistanties, while I do think they are a bit suspicious, they may be a change of opinion.

Dont have much to anything outside of what I quoted.

[Drench]

I'm going to concede that my opinion has changed. Conceded.

Now, we are in a deadline situation. At the moment, can you publish a suspicion list? As far as I can see, we're in LYLO, and deadline means scum win.

CAF - 2/10

DEJ - 5/10

[dejkha]

Comparing you both to each other (as opposed to everyone else that was in the game) this is how i see it:

Caf- 2/10

Drench- 6/10

[caf19]

dej - 4/10
Drench - 7/10

Dej has played the typical game that leads one to the 'neutral' zone of people's suspicion lists, being reserved and not drawing attention to himself while avoiding any glaring inconsistencies. Drench/Zeppo has been a louder player and has done scummy things (Zeppo's voting of seb yesterday, Drench's behaviour that I've flagged up already today) so it seems natural to put him higher up. I can't entirely shake feelings of suspicion relating to Dej though - staying in the background while townies get lynched is hardly atypical scum behaviour. I'll read through dej's posts again and see if there is anything concrete to support this feeling.

[caf19]

From tomorrow I'll be visiting people for Christmas, so it's unlikely I'll be around extensively until after the deadline. I've also read through, and I'm sticking with my view of dej as middling and Zeppo/Drench as scummy. With those two things in mind,

vote: Drench

Apologies if this is a bit premature, but we're deadlined for 3 days' time anyway and discussion isn't moving fast. At this point, there isn't that much that could swing me and I see this as the right thing to do. Here's hoping.

[dejkha]

Come on, no one ever thought of Caf as scummy anyway. Pretty much the most he ever had against him was the possibility of being so pro-town that he might be tricking everyone lol.

vote: drench

Okie dokie then. I guess that's game? I've definitely learned a lot through this interesting game with constant twists and turns lol. Thanks to everyone and happy holidays. =D

[Drench]

*gets back from V/LA*

Tum de ta...


...


Well. That's something.

*losing horns*

Well done to dej there, who I'm assuming was scum. I'm not that good at finding victory posts. Good game, and Merry Christmas!

[caf19]

That's not what I wanted to see. Oh well, congrats dej, you coped with Day 1 well and were always likely to get my support in the final day... ITT we learn that analysing the quieter players is hard (how ironic).

Drench, you played well, but you arrived in a difficult position and it was always going to take something special to bring me around. I did have nagging feelings about dej, but I just couldn't find much in the way of actual evidence to justify them.

[Drench]

ITT we learn that analysing the quieter players is hard (how ironic).

This. I found dej a pretty tough shell to crack. Pretty much the only thing that really cropped up was the P1 bandwagon. As you said yourself, that formed the basis of my case just because everything else was so...neutral.

[massive]

Final Vote Count

Drench (2): caf19, dejkha

As caf19 and dejkha string up Drench, caf19 breathes a sigh of relief.

"So, I guess that's over, then?"

Dejkha smiles as he points the barrel of his pistol at the back of caf19's head.

"Yes, it certainly is."

Drench, vanilla townie, lynched Day Four
caf19, vanilla townie, killed in end game

Scum win! Thanks for playing, everyone, and thanks to everyone who replaced.

[Corvuus]

dang.

I was following the game and I was convinced Zeppo(Drench) wasn't scum but I didn't know who to pick from Caf/Dej that much except I thought Caf was slightly more pro-town.

In the end, I guess 'newbieness' evened out with Chuck outing himself and then Seb fake claiming doc for no 'real' reason. If Seb hadn't fake claimed, then maybe things might be different but oh well.

Still wish town had won though .

gg.

Corvuus

[dejkha]

I thought I was screwed once Chuck outted. Thank god Seb lost his mind or something lol.

Honestly though, when I hopped on the bandwagon on page 1, I probably would've done that even if I was town. When I found out about the game, I played on another website and it was pretty much random voting the whole time. Didn't know how serious it was over here. Now I know to never that whether I'm scum or town. Definitely learned a great deal from this game though.

[Corvuus]

Although Chuck didn't do it "on purpose", Nur and Mirth did end up getting polarized against each other (i did help, bleh) and that pretty much smoke screened most of it.

Before Seb's claim, I thought Nur was town, Mirth was so-so, Zeppo was town, Seb was possible town but so-so. Caf was fairly townish for most of the game but him surviving so long did make me suspicious. I didn't like the end game with you guys ranking each other like that. It actually made me suspect you more Dej.

----

I still think I should have just remained silent and not counter-claimed but I reacted before I thought. The odds of Seb-scum fake claiming doc without being L-1... is just mind boggling. We weren't at lylo so I could have let him live and either he will get NK'ed or get killed at lylo.

Either way, the day would have most likely ended up with Mirth being lynched then the NK being either Seb or Nur and then things may have become clearer.

Why did you kill the cop on night 1!!!

Corvuus

[Mirth]

Dej, congratulations, you were great. Nothing I can really comment on except that I'm impressed with how you kept your cool with Chuck. I still say Nur should have been policy lynched, and I don't understand why you NKed him. That was weird.

[nureins]

Good game Dej...only at the very end of the game I started to think that you might be scum. Hardly I would have voted for you having Zeppo around, which means you did a fantastic job.
Congratulations !!

I can hardly understand why mirth insists on my lynch. Such a buss in day 1 would have been too much...Dej could have also NKed Caf very safely, I guess...why did you choose me ?

[Mirth]

Policy lynch because of his claim. As I have said. I don't understand why Dej NKed you though.

[dejkha]

I cant remember exactly why I NK'd Nur, but I think it was because, during Day 2, either him or Caf said who they would suspect Day 3 if it came to that. Something like that, I think. And I also thought Caf suspected me less than Drench. Nur seemed like he would be 50-50 to whoever else was left. At the end of the day the decision it worked out though.

And let me tell ya, at the beginning of Day 1, I almost cracked after all the pressure on me from hoping on the bandwagon. Thank goodness Seb came along lol.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

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