Open 873: PYP: Anime Music & Memes - Game Over!

[Lady Lambdadelta]

sigh.

Was hoping today would last a little longer.

I guess, while we're in purgatory, give me some cliffs notes on where your head is at pre-flip

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Just so you all know. I am very anxious about this flip.

You are not the only one, but I have an anxiety disorder so

[Lady Lambdadelta]

yeah I also want a chat with you notty

[Lady Lambdadelta]

oh yeah well i want a chat with ydra

chat with me then

ydra and i share a braincell so

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD I’ll ping you when I’m home from errands

aight bet

[Lady Lambdadelta]

melo or whatever

it's elo, not melo

because it's possible scum took the 1 shot vig and can be holding onto it

so if we choose no elimination today, they can have one scum shoot the other scum vig and we lose

so we have to eliminate today.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

oh yeah well i want a chat with ydra

chat with me then

ydra and i share a braincell so

ok uh

hm

i don't know what i want to chat with you about

why do you think greyice died

honestly... it's a little weird.

If they're shooting for cops, like the Ceph kill probably was, why shoot GreyICE given we now know he had a false hypo on Dunn.

If they're shooting for reads, why not let GreyICE kill Dunn first?

My current theory is that greyICE was a cop shot and that sort of means players or teams who think GreyICE does a triple bluff there are the ones on my list but it only takes one player to think that way and I can't think of a team that can't?

Even still... if they knew enough to shoot Dunnstral anyway, it is a little weird it was GreyICE before Dunn.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Path of least resistance is FF and Red.

I don’t care for it.
This is elo yes?

Yeah I also sort of can't see Luke+Unwnd as a team from Day 1/2 interactions but I guess I should do my due dilligence and check that?

Have you looked at those interactions, Bell?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Well, path of least resistance is out the window then.
*stares up at the sky*

It’s not me.
Processing most plausible scum. Come back and see me in 3 days.

Dw, I’m invincible today because I eventually brain dump massively on win or lose days.

But also, I have an actual knife to my neck from school. So there’s going to need to be a reduction in trying. Unprecedented for me, usually I just say I won’t and then I do it anyway, but I might actually not be able to give it my all.

Sucks.

I mean do what you can.

I have questions for you about things but they can wait.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Path of least resistance is FF and Red.

I don’t care for it.
This is elo yes?

I have no interest in either of these But I’m still mid review

In EITHER?

so from your pov there is 2 scum in LLD/Ydra/Bell?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

in my pov there's 2 town in LLD/ydra/bell

Oooh, okay. Elaborate. How did you come to this conclusion?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Ask them and I’ll check for them and respond when I have time.

Okay, bet.

1) Why did scum have such accurate kills this game? We know at this point, we've seen 6 roles flip, all town and the only roles remaining are 1ShotVig and N3 Vig, neither block having any info roles. So scum picked informed, got notified about something, and unless scum got both vigs and said "nah we won't use them" the informed mod will tell them about one of those, right?

So how, despite playerslots 4/5/6/9/12/14 all being roleless by current claim, did we lose every PR in the game on consecuitive night shots, and the cop on a night 3 shot when in all honestly Dunn's play should have worked. Right? Like, claiming he didn't get cop in the way he did, it made sense.

This process also makes me wonder about Ffery's "I saw Dunn's reactions as being a PR in distress" quotes in the thread yesterday.

2) With Marci town, I can't be protecting Marci!scum by pushing STD. I could be scum protecting Marci!town but then why would I push STD out of nowhere over the town tracker or worse, letting the Town Cop die. Like, it looks to me like the scum were informed on what people to kill. Dunn was on that list. It makes sense that if I were scum I would have forced Dunn to claim at minimum but instead I noted a STD scum flip and read into it based on this game and that game and shoved him to death without a Dunn claim. This is... sort of self talk from my side I get I'm more or less town casing myself here but: To me, that points to town LLD. Do you consider me more or less likely town because of this?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

not necessarily exactly 2

but bell is town and i specifically think you and ydra are not scum together

I see.

why are you so confident bell is town here?

In my mind, Bell is one of the few suspects that makes sense as "if this player was scum, they could have picked a role that gave them info about what roles existed in the game". You're the other one. Both of your Hypos SHOULD have been defendable, maybe less yours because of the Marci claim.

Also, what make Ydra and I not S+S

[Lady Lambdadelta]

also if anyone has time to listen to and/or soothe my anxious terror about this game i'd really appreciate that

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i would be interested to know why you're feeling anxious terror

but only as a game way to read me huh?

fine

I'm someone for whom letting people down and being seen as less competent than I really am is a huge pain for me. I have a good chunk of bad brains about it.

And I'm looking at this game and it felt so simple when it was Marci/Ffery.

and now I'm concerned people are gonna go "well, LLD exists in ELO, we gotta kill her" and that would lose us the game and it's the worst way for me to lose everyone the game and it's like.

If you're town and Bell's scum you're so closed off "if he's scum I lose"

and it's wonderful you're able to have that confidence and be okay losing? i'm not?

and i just know people are going to tap into that paranoia they've been doing it all game and i

i don't want to be wrong, and i really don't want to be the losing miselimination when i had all the control in the world on day 2 and got it wrong.

Essentially i'm in a state of exiestential dread that i am resetting my reads back to 0 when i need to be confident to fight this out?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

ffery uniting you and peta and bell when you were at each others throats

i don't really remember that happening but maybe i missed it or you had a different interpretation of events

i'm also confused about this

[Lady Lambdadelta]

but if it's true

peta was obviously dying, so all it would really accomplish is get you to townread bell?

or get bell to townread you

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I plan to review that some tonight but one of her first posts post catch-up was how her entire top tier of townreads would not like working together and it was a semi believable pool

I could just be pocketed again but idk dude, looking at some shit in retrospect is weird to see as scum ffery slot (read: Luke trying to disrupt wagon on marci who we now know was town)

okay my dude but if Ffery is town you're in a weird fucking spot

because you've got bell locked away town and you have then

ydra/fire (the Unwnd Ydra pairing that sorta maybe works? actually?
ydra/me
fire/me (do you really think Unwnd and I power wolf like that day 2 when we can let greyICE do the dirty work for us? Unwnd and I cuold have stepped back and swallowed way more cred. If Firebringer was our partner, he has no reason or need to quick hammer basically ever.)

So... I just don't see where you're going here

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I only got to looking at talys comments about people so far and then I passed out but I remember feeling weird about taly interactions with lld and ydra

Well the weird thing about Taly and I is that I don't have any interactions with her, as peta pointed out.

Like literal 0. I never talk about her.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i would be interested to know why you're feeling anxious terror

but only as a game way to read me huh?

fine

I'm someone for whom letting people down and being seen as less competent than I really am is a huge pain for me. I have a good chunk of bad brains about it.

And I'm looking at this game and it felt so simple when it was Marci/Ffery.

and now I'm concerned people are gonna go "well, LLD exists in ELO, we gotta kill her" and that would lose us the game and it's the worst way for me to lose everyone the game and it's like.

If you're town and Bell's scum you're so closed off "if he's scum I lose"

and it's wonderful you're able to have that confidence and be okay losing? i'm not?

and i just know people are going to tap into that paranoia they've been doing it all game and i

i don't want to be wrong, and i really don't want to be the losing miselimination when i had all the control in the world on day 2 and got it wrong.

Essentially i'm in a state of exiestential dread that i am resetting my reads back to 0 when i need to be confident to fight this out?

if you are town and are (or later become) convinced that bell is scum then you can certainly try to convince me and i will always read and listen

what i meant by that is that based on the information i have seen so far i am not going to actively consider bell as scum. ive ruled that out for myself because it makes solving easier and because im pretty sure I'm right

it doesn't mean that i will ignore the possibility for all time forever

im not ever 100% confident on anything but i need a base to build a solve around in this type of situation and bell town is where im most comfortable starting with

the bell thing was just an example of you feeling okay to be able to lose the game if you're wrong on a read and

i can't relate to that

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I’m working on refining it but her huge townread was a big part of why I backed off peta

Also tilt

But also her

what day?

Peta was confirmed town by day 4 and the ONLY PLAYER DYING ON DAY 3 WAS FIREBRINGER, SINCE HE WAS CONFIRMED SCUM BY DUNN.

so in what way does Ffery actually get you to back off peta?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I wanna talk to Ffery because I actually had something I wanted her opinion way back when on but I don’t think I ever actually talked about it bc lol tilt

Ninja-
What’s weird is there’s a few instances where taly explicitly comments on your read on ydra

And that’s like, most of the talk they do about you

wait really

[Lady Lambdadelta]

yo lld

{Ydrasse, Taly, Bell, Lukewarm}

is there anyone in this group we shouldn't vote?

- taly/vicky

...

she's not cheeky enough to do this is she

[Lady Lambdadelta]

to just throw literally all 3 scum in a group and ask me that question?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Mix in bell for good measure while I'm scumreading bell on day 1

[Lady Lambdadelta]

But Ydra is SO town

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i get this sudden like necessity to reevaluate but i feel a lot more pressure or suspicion before than i’d expect @ me which is hm

why is it hmm?

this is ELO, I came in to today after the marci town flip expecting people to go LLD SCUM PARANOIA AHH and die and fail everyone

Why are you not execting pressure?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i don’t think notsci is a wolf because draft stuff, maybe a silly gambit but it really doesn’t seem necessary for wolves to do

fireis being tracked nowhere twice is also probably good?

that doesn't mean anything

there's no player alive right now i think i would say "yeah let's let unwnd slot make the kill instead of you" for. Especially if you've already been tracked once. Double tracking someone is such a common play.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

playing like this atm. agony

GreyICE was One shot watcher.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also double 5s is totally possible. Town got EVERY POWER ROLE this game.

EVERY SINGLE ONE, unless we think One-Shot Vig still is in the pool in which case yeah maybe they have that one but no one seemed to try and take that so that can fall to 14 easily.

i don't think that we, in ELO, can rule out the double scum 5 gambit when town got ALL the power. Literally all of it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

5 5 6 is probably not a believable draft right

can we rule out notsci/ydra

I'd totally do that.

if I was tanking my draft by picking double numbers for that advantage, I'd 100% of the time do it with another player picking a higher number.

Picking 1 there is where I would look first

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i don’t think notsci is a wolf because draft stuff, maybe a silly gambit but it really doesn’t seem necessary for wolves to do

fireis being tracked nowhere twice is also probably good?

that doesn't mean anything

there's no player alive right now i think i would say "yeah let's let unwnd slot make the kill instead of you" for. Especially if you've already been tracked once. Double tracking someone is such a common play.

does anyone expect marci to double track

Huh? What? Yes. I knew she'd do that.

She lliterally said wait till the weekend and then we didn't. What did you expect to happen, Marci would put thought into the game and try and pick someone who might submit a kill she suspects?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

looking at greyices iso he seemed pretty... awake compared to what i remember going on at the time or more than i gave him credit for

like one of the most likely to reeval and i think most likely to stop a marci elim if he was left alive earlier?

that's my husband

he's scary good.

i don't doubt that he was killed for something I just can't figure out what besides maybe "cop shooting"

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i don’t think notsci is a wolf because draft stuff, maybe a silly gambit but it really doesn’t seem necessary for wolves to do

fireis being tracked nowhere twice is also probably good?

that doesn't mean anything

there's no player alive right now i think i would say "yeah let's let unwnd slot make the kill instead of you" for. Especially if you've already been tracked once. Double tracking someone is such a common play.

does anyone expect marci to double track

Huh? What? Yes. I knew she'd do that.

She lliterally said wait till the weekend and then we didn't. What did you expect to happen, Marci would put thought into the game and try and pick someone who might submit a kill she suspects?

i thought she was a wolf stalling and drip feeding the bare amount of content

i do think that it is odd to assume she’d double track though but i don’t think i’d ever do that

town or wolf she does that 100% of the time in my mind but maybe i'm brain broke.

i just see marci as the type when disengaged from the game to go "fuck it same dude again"

because why would she put effort into anything if people suspect her

-_-

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Wasn’t a shot expecting cop

They shot hin despite knowing the cop was still out there

He was a bigger priority than the cop

???

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think llds scum

ah, so it's not the paranoia angle

it's the "LLD shoots her husband isn't that weird guys" angle

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Greyice claimed guilty dunn d2, which scum would know was wrong

GreyICE hypo'd a claim day 2, and is well within the realms of the kind of player who hypos a fake claim to hide himself if he investigated a dead player.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

also

on the list of things i NEVER DO AS SCUM

NOT LET MY WRONG AS FUCK HUSBAND RUN UP THE COP TO FORCE A CLAIM AND POSSIBLY GET HIM KILLED FOR IT

AND THEN SHOOT HIM WHEN HE'S MOSTLY TOO BUSY TO PUT PRESSURE ON ME IN THE GAME ANYWAY

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You pushing that it’s a cop hunt low on the list and after he claimed a false hypo is sketchy as fuck

then what the fuck else is it bruv

no one else here respects him enough to shoot him for being scary but me. And I don't shoot him for being scary because of that logic.

SO WHAT LOGIC IS LEFT?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You are asking me to argue from the position of a literal trap where the "obvious" answer implies something I know is not true.

So WHAT ELSE IS LEFT

[Lady Lambdadelta]

this is so fucking infuriating.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i think there's at least 2 other possible reasons

then go for it

i can't see any

scum are confirmed at this point to have no information roles so they don't know he's watcher

scum apparently knew who the cop was so he probably shouldn't be a cop shot unless they sought to divine his intentions

so what is left?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

NOT LET MY WRONG AS FUCK HUSBAND RUN UP THE COP TO FORCE A CLAIM AND POSSIBLY GET HIM KILLED FOR IT

sorry can you clarify this im not following

are you saying you would let him run up dunn as scum, and in this game you stopped him, or what?

i'm saying he claimed a guilty on dunn day 2

as scum, i never hesitate to join that wagon. he doesn't have to threaten me to join it. that was a literal thing that happened.

i let him drive that shit up, dunn claims cop, and then i vote him out THAT DAY based on him looking sketchy as shit for that.

and then I shoot dunn that ngiht and remove the chances that I'm ever investigated.

Like, here. Let's look at this for a second

why does LLD scum shoot someone she should know is not a cop

when I'm the one who is the single most likely to be investigated in the game. Period. I STILL dno't get why dunn had 0 hypo on day 3. It should have been an LLD Green check ffs.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

possible reason 1 is that they wanted people to think he was killed bc scum dunn thought the guilty was real

possible reason 2 is that they wanted people to think LLD did it bc husband/she respects him a lot as a player/etc

i don't know if either of those are super good reasons but i think they're both better than thinking he was a cop who was hardpushing a fake result

reason 1 is fragile if scum know dunn is cop. Dunn just claims and then it's gone.

reason 2 is... i guess? am i really supposed to think "scum shot the not cop over the cop JUST to frame LLD?"

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i don't see why scum would have known dunn was cop on d2

not day 2, night 2. when they shoot GreyICE.

right?

Like if the argument is "they know GreyICE isn't cop, and somehow they kill Dunn the next day DESPITE his 0 hypo claim "i picked cop didn't get it" gambit

right?

that means they knew he was cop

And so they killed GreyICE anyway.

If they didn't know dunn was cop, then it makes more sense that they greyICE kill is a cop kill than any other argument i've seen.

except maybe the framing me one but that's.... i feel like that's arrogance to even think that

[Lady Lambdadelta]

As in, fire is

so what you've decided that

Bell Ffery and Fire are all town so it's me and ydra?

there's something really fucky with that my dude.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i’m confused by the bell/ffery clears

they came out of nowhere. he's got a vision for today it seems. I've felt it since he came in. He's been posting random nonsense but it's felt like the VERY START he was zeroing in on you and I and given I know that's wrong it leads me to wonder how he became so confident in that and why he's only now pretending that "wow that thing lld is arguing is so sketch guys. I think LLD is scum".

He walked into today and said "nah not ffery not fire" and had a bell townread from nowhere yesterday so

why is he doing this charade?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Path of least resistance is FF and Red.

I don’t care for it.
This is elo yes?

I have no interest in either of these But I’m still mid review

like this is the entry post and 4 pages later he's doing "GUYS I THINK LLD MIGHT BE SCUM HERE" when he's already implied that

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i don't see why scum would have known dunn was cop on d2

not day 2, night 2. when they shoot GreyICE.

right?

Like if the argument is "they know GreyICE isn't cop, and somehow they kill Dunn the next day DESPITE his 0 hypo claim "i picked cop didn't get it" gambit

right?

that means they knew he was cop

And so they killed GreyICE anyway.

If they didn't know dunn was cop, then it makes more sense that they greyICE kill is a cop kill than any other argument i've seen.

except maybe the framing me one but that's.... i feel like that's arrogance to even think that

im still not seeing where them actually knowing dunn is cop is coming from? where did they get that knowledge and what makes you think they had it

are you saying nothing happened on day 3 that could have resulted in them having a better idea of who cop was? we literally got halfway through a massclaim, didn't we?

i feel like dunn was one of the most likely cop possibilities at that point

i'm going to fucking scream

IF DUNN WAS THE LITERAL COP OPTION THAT NIGHT WHY DIDN'T THEY KILL HIM

NO THREAT GREYICE RAISES IS WORSE THAN A COP CHECK OR CLEAR.

DOUBLE IF YOU THINK I'M SCUM BECAUSE I'M ON THE SHORT LIST OF "PEOPLE YOU CHECK AS COP".

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i just don't get it

if they know dunn is cop night 2 they should have shot dunn night 2.

so the only logic that makes sense to me is they didn't think dunn was cop night 2, and shot someone else.

why did they shoot that someone? I don't know but given a cop is in the game you have to imagine they'd be LOOKING FOR THAT COP

[Lady Lambdadelta]

how in the fuck is this hard to get or in any way suspicious to argue?

this is the ONLY logic that makes sense to me

[Lady Lambdadelta]

im so confused what you're even trying to say

i agree with that!! if they knew dunn was cop n2 then why didn't they kill him?

YES

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING TOO.

SO I'M SAYING THE LOGICAL ANSWER TO THAT IS "WHAT IF THEY DIDN'T KNOW DUNN WAS COP NIGHT 2?"

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Both “there’s no WAY he’s a cop why would I shoot him”

And “he’s the type to fake shit to last longer”

bruh

i'm literally uncertain myself

i'm trying to piece it together

it's not fucking contradictory or scummy to not know why the fuck this was done

as far as i can tell im the ONLY one trying to actually piece it together and not just going "shit's weird, must have been cause they really needed GreyICE dead and vaguing at that

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like you were just saying repeatedly that scum knew dunn was cop n2 and you were basing arguments off that

and i ask why you think that and where thats coming from

and now you yell at me that there's no way they could have known dunn was a cop n2

??

HYPOTHETICAL

THE ARGUMENT THAT YOU GUYS WERE MAKING

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i'm going to fucking bash my brains in dude

[Lady Lambdadelta]

this conversation makes me want to bash my own brains in

i'm literally playing devil's advocate to explore all options to see what is likely how is that hard to comprehend

[Lady Lambdadelta]

how the fuck is it hard to understand wanting to look at all options

they either knew dunn was cop, or they didn't

if they knew dunn was cop, why not shoot him?

if they didn't, why shoot GreyICE? What reasons exist?

I'm allowed to argue both sides to try and come to a conclusion but I haven't DRAWN ONE YET because I keep having people JUMP DOWN MY FUCKING THROAT

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My point was that greyice kill was weird

And then LLD said it was prob shooting for the cop

Which is weird, given the incorrect hypo he had the day before and his low place on the list

YEAH AND I MADE THAT POINT MYSELF

I'M TRYING TO FUCKING SOLVE IT IN MY HEAD WHYgqwjIOASDFHHL;ZS;SDFKahkoDSFJ;zo

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like my stories not straight becuase i'm arguing hypotheticals from both sides of a possible divide

in worlds where they know dunn is cop

and in worlds where they don't.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i'm not committing to one or the other being true because i don't know which one is true, but i am trying to argue from both.

and being fuckign crucified for trying to solve a problem like this because i "don't make sense" when all i'm doing is trying to state how i'm thinking is

[Lady Lambdadelta]

because you are basing other arguments on an unsupported point that as far as i can tell came out of nowhere

if it's just a trying to sort out which is which and argue both sides or whatever then why are you basing an argument for why you're town on one of the sides only

MAYBE IF I WASN'T BEING CRUCIFIED FOR IT I MIGHT HAVE MADE AN ARGUMENT FOR THE OTHER SIDE.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

how is this so clearly not a case of neither of you understanding what i'm doing and my brain not working the way neurotypical brains does

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like just answer that and then we're set

maybe it did come from me? i took it from Notty's suspicion of my initial hypothesis. like

if he thinks it's so weird for GI to be a cop shot, then i want to 1) solve for all worlds and reasons because you're giving me reasons now and 2) explain why it feels rational to me

like in my mind, Notty is operating from a world where scum knew Dunn was cop, or else why would he be so vehemently against my theory

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Can we also talk about how she’s “ydras so town” but she’s questioning every other tangible read in the game that isn’t just a vibe check from most of the game

Like I still think most of the ydra townreads are fucking vibes and shrugs but even still she’s like “but ydras so town”

She’s poster child of under the radar this game what do you even mean

my dude i'm literally re-evaluating her today

i literally looked at the fucking taly shit you wanted me to do

quoted something i thoguht was sus

was looking into a possible Ffery/Ydra world

and then i got fucking crucified for trying to solve the greyICE kill

[Lady Lambdadelta]

No, my POV as I have REPEATEDLY said- GI claimed an incorrect guilty. He is low on the draft.

Why would a shot at him be about a fucking cop shot when he was so low on the draft

my dude Dunnstral was 8, greyICE was 10. they're both low. What does Low have to do with this anymore?

and I answered this

I said that it made some sense that GreyICE might fake a guilty as town cop. It's not the MOST sensible but if scum are operating with a small list of who can be cop then...

and once I argued that you started getting into it with me

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oi, back here.

I want this fucking resolved.

I'm not going to have you skip over this GreyICE kill shit and then 2 days from now point at it vaguely as a reason to scumread me.

The actual cop was actually low. So clearly low didn't matter, the scum are confirmed not to have roles so what they picked clearly informed them somehow so

if they know Dunn is cop there's 0 kill in the world that makes any sense BESIDES dunn

so operating from a not knowing dunn is the cop world, wouldn't they still be shooting for cop? Like isn't that still the thing you have to do?

What possible advantage is gained by shooting someone who you don't think it a cop on night 2 that outweighs a cop check? Even a green check provides us an innocent today which is a lot. Red check buys us even more.

That's my point.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oi, back here.

I want this fucking resolved.

I'm not going to have you skip over this GreyICE kill shit and then 2 days from now point at it vaguely as a reason to scumread me.

The actual cop was actually low. So clearly low didn't matter, the scum are confirmed not to have roles so what they picked clearly informed them somehow so

if they know Dunn is cop there's 0 kill in the world that makes any sense BESIDES dunn

so operating from a not knowing dunn is the cop world, wouldn't they still be shooting for cop? Like isn't that still the thing you have to do?

What possible advantage is gained by shooting someone who you don't think it a cop on night 2 that outweighs a cop check? Even a green check provides us an innocent today which is a lot. Red check buys us even more.

That's my point.

this is the logic i am trying to give you. ignore the rest , since apparently going through the motions and checking all different worlds of an everett branch for validity doesn't fucntion for iether of you

this is the argument, in bold.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

And if they don't think GreyICE is cop then they're in this same situation on night 3 right?

Like

they kill greyICE because thye don't know who cop is for REASONS while thinking GreyICE isn't cop

but now they have to shoot within a cop pool on night 3 which they might miss ANYWAY

so why waste the GreyICE shot why not shoot in the cop pool? Unless Grey is IN THE COP POOL

[Lady Lambdadelta]

why does no one understand me

[Lady Lambdadelta]

is 3 / 5 / 5 a silly draft? it feels like a silly draft

again, it's a fine draft

any draft when you double up on a number is going to look silly. You need to split the double up and the third. Picking 3 is a fine choice when you are trying to get a PR since you know your partners aren't liekly to get one.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

my take is:

1) i don't think greyice would have been scum's top choice for who cop is. i think they would expect it to be pretty unlikely even if they think it's possible he was faking a result

2) if they knew who the cop was, they would shoot the cop

3) they had some better reason for shooting greyice than shooting in the pool of people who are more likely to be cops than greyice

I agree for 1 and 2. 2 100%, 1 mostly.

3 is where you get me. What POSSIBLE REASON is more valuable than an extra cop shot? If scum think GreyICE is never cop here they are conceding to at least 1 if not more unabaited cop checks.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

(i think the cop... thing is bloating the thread)

right but if people don't understand me i'm not explaining myself well

and i need to be understood at least

not even as a game thing just

i need people not to think i'm an idiot here

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i don't know what the reason would be but i think it logically follows from 1 and 2 that it must exist

even if they think greyice is possibly cop he is certainly not the most likely. so there was some reason that pushed up the value of his kill

then what's the reason

my logic flows a completely other way here

UNLESS they thought GreyICE was a cop option here, it makes 0 sense to shoot him no matter WHAT reason you give. Cop shot is the ONLY play for scum that night.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

is there anyone that feels comfortable ruling out ffery being a partner with?

Bell?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

But I confess I don't really know how to approach or read bell

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i’m kind of struggling except like... notsci? because he’s defending her a lot which maybe he would do and there’s the little comments like “nope not trusting you after this game” which feels more like meta juice and is just weird but i also think that notsci is playing a little laZy right now with his reasons to wolfread which is ? not inherently wolfy but.. strange i guess when it feels like he’s saying he’s re-evaling

Notsci is 100% a ffery partner possibilty.

Calling out how it's weird that Ffery did X or Y and trying to spare her today when she is hyper on the chopping block.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This is just how it goes

How what goes, precisely?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i don't know what the reason would be but i think it logically follows from 1 and 2 that it must exist

even if they think greyice is possibly cop he is certainly not the most likely. so there was some reason that pushed up the value of his kill

then what's the reason

my logic flows a completely other way here

UNLESS they thought GreyICE was a cop option here, it makes 0 sense to shoot him no matter WHAT reason you give. Cop shot is the ONLY play for scum that night.

Like no one can give me a good answer to this question.

No one.

that's why I went down the rabbit hole. Because there is no good answer for this question.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This is just how it goes

How what goes, precisely?

my interactinos with ffery

I see.

my head hurts dude

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This is just how it goes

How what goes, precisely?

my interactinos with ffery

i don’t know if you’re town atm frankly but,
could you lay out what you think my scum plan was this game assuming?

see this is what i'm saying

i don't get the path to winning i leave if i'm scum here by not shooting in a cop pool night 2 and leaving Dunnstral a chance to investigate me that night which he really was supposed to do

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i think it's just too hard for me to believe that scum thought he was the most likely cop option

my issue here is that your logic doesn't seem natural to me and it feels motivated to push for a conclusion that benefits you (if it's purely a cop shot, it can't be any of several other reasons, one of which would be your respect for/familiarity with him)

it's hard for me to see how you could give zero ground and insist it must be solely a cop searching shot and no other reason could have even played into it at all (this seems really unreasonable to me) unless you are intentionally trying to cut off other possibilities

which like. i guess you're motivated to do that as town too, you did say explicitly that you don't want the kill to be a reason to suspect me. but if you are twisting the logic as town to suit your needs then that is going to make it a lot harder for me to find you as town

if you're town and do genuinely believe your logic is sound, then sorry i guess? but that's hard for me to swallow

i'm not being inflexible

the reason of my respect for and familiarity with my husband who was disengaged with the game at a point i was widely townread over TRYING TO SHOOT A COP doesn't make sense.

I'm not pushing an agenda here.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like

i want to fucking cry

i'm not trying to give 0 ground.

i got fucking yelled at for trying to give ground and explore other worlds

"WELL THIS CONDRADICTS WHAT YOU BELIEVE"

so which one is it huh?

if i give ground am i being hypocritical

or if i don't give ground and i scum with an agenda

you can't have both because i literally DID BOTH TO TRY AND RESPOND TO YOU AND NOTTY

I gave you my believe hard and fast and when epople went SCOFF. WHAT A BELIEF. MSUT BE SCUM.

I walked through other worlds.

GASP! YOU'RE BACK TRACKING! HYPOCRITE!

back to my original argument

SCOFF! SO INFLEXIBLE!

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i think especially because there's been at least 3 times already today where someone has said "can we rule this out as a possibility?" as a way of narrowing the pool of options and you say absolutely not anything is possible

and your attitude is so completely opposite and different when it comes to something that someone is suggesting could be a possible reason to suspect you. when it's that, nope that isn't possible at all it must be this specific way instead

that especially is what feels like an agenda

YEAH BECAUSE THE ONLY THING I KNOW IS THAT I AM TOWN

I'M AT FULL RESET.

how is this a reason to scumread someone in lylo

you're reacting suspiciously when other people try to town bin someone in lylo but defending yourself and trying to prove your innocence?

yes that's called playing mafia, as either alignment. Specifically in this case the town flavour of tyring to solve

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like it's not an agenda to go "ehhh i dunno, but i'm town here's why"

or rather, it's not some hidden agenda.

townies declare why they are townie and suspect others for trying to lock away possible worlds in ELO. That's NORMAL.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i don't think i have or ever would criticize you for giving ground or exploring possible worlds

my confusion was over where your idea that you seemed to be pushing was coming from

and I've given it. Multiple times.

and not once have you given me a good reason why my logic is wrong. all you say is "it's weird to assume greyICE is a cop" I AGREEWITH YOU and "there must have been another reason" RIGHT BUT WHAT REASON FITS?

this is literally the sherlock holmes quote

[Lady Lambdadelta]

if you try to prove your innocence through logic that seems unreasonable to me and also seems counter to your approach when looking at other angles, then yes i will suspect you for that

alright then fuck me i guess

[Lady Lambdadelta]

But Ydra is SO town

full reset kek

yes, my dude. my prior fucking influences colour how i see shit. i'm looking into ydra, but she still feels town. it's fucking

dsfhdjksl;

why do i feel like i'm arguing with two brick walls who just want to see me dead and don't have a single good reason for it so they're just talking at me

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i haven't ruled out the other possibilities though? i gave several

yes and in what world are any of them better than shooting in a cop pool

[Lady Lambdadelta]

this world, apparently

see this is the shit that pisses me off

you just assume you're fucking right

what if you're wrong, what if they did shoot greyICE looking for a cop huh?

you think you're so beyond fucking reproach here

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like i already said i fundamentally do not see how someone could believe that greyice was the MOST LIKELY to be cop at the point of n2

possible? ok sure

most likely? no

okay but no other choice makes SENSE

NOT SHOOTING SOMEONE THAT CAN BE COP NIGHT 2 IS STICTLY WRONG FOR SCUM

[Lady Lambdadelta]

talys interactions with lld are fairly sparse but they vaguely feel like approval seeking i guess? asking lld if her limpool at the time was okay and that’s mostly it

lld strongly pushed back on dunn calling taly scum and said it was wrong though which is:<

what? when did i do that?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

im not beyond reproach at all im right in the middle of reproach-land

im stating what i believe to be most likely and supporting it with the reasons i have

i think that the belief that greyice was the most likely cop at the point of n2 is a frankly ridiculous one that needs some strong reasoning to support it, and that hasnt been provided

i'm not saying they were right to believe it

it's

how the hell am i supposed to argue for that? i don't know what the fuck the scum team thought.

i lliterally already tried to argue this and people got mad. i said "well it's in his range of thigns to do so people could ahev assumed this" and you shot it down.

i'm explicitly saying

i do not understand why GreyICE was shot over Dunn, GreyICE had lots of anti cop flag.

i do not understand why scum would shoot anyone but in a cop pool because it's strictly wrong

so between thsoe two impossibilities the one more likely to me has to be "scum chose to believe GI could be a cop" and not "scum forfeited a cop check to kill GI".

does that make sense

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like i already said i fundamentally do not see how someone could believe that greyice was the MOST LIKELY to be cop at the point of n2

possible? ok sure

most likely? no

okay but no other choice makes SENSE

NOT SHOOTING SOMEONE THAT CAN BE COP NIGHT 2 IS STICTLY WRONG FOR SCUM

shooting someone that can be cop yet isn't the most likely cop is an acceptable approach for scum

right but that's still "shooting within the cop pool" isn't it?

that's been my whole argument this WHOLE TIME

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like i think shooting greyice while not thinking he's most likely cop is maybe suboptimal? but they could do it if they had a reason they liked

same as drafting 5 5 6. is it suboptimal? absolutely. but you made sure to insist that scum could still do it if they had a reason they liked

those are two different kinds of suboptimal

one gives people reasons not to suspect you

the other provides an extra round of HARD MOD CONFIRMED INFO

they aren't equal, don't make them a false equivilence.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like "I have a power role read from GreyICE and he can be cop here even if he's not the msot likely to be, let's shoot him" is a reason I think could be made

but it still falls under "cop shot". It falls squarely under that.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

you specifically pushed back on me saying that other reasons could have contributed to them killing greyice

ive been saying the whole time that greyice is possibly in the cop pool but not the most likely one, and so therefore scum would need an additional reason to want to kill him

no i'm pushing back on reasons that don't track like "it was done because we fear him" because if that's all there is then it's worth shooting someone who is more liekly a power role.

if the reason includes "and he had cop equity" then I agree with it, most likely.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

IM SORRY BUT AAAAAAAAA PAGES AND MY LITTLE BRAIN IS MELTING

no but this is gonna get held over my head later because i was misunderstood so i want none of that shit i have to be understood

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i guess i'm supposed to drop it to not make the game unbearable or something

i just hate being misunderstood when i think now at this point i may have been making the same fucking argument as Fire

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Taly mafia because they don't stand out and other people have stronger reasons to be town, whereas I don't have any reason to think they're town

Marci mafia because their play looked different as town and I've seen mafia grab tracker/jailkeeper as first pick before. They defended KingTroll yesterday in a way that didn't make sense - they acted like they had a townread there early but then kept it up later when KingTroll hadn't made any posts. I have decided that it looked like white knighting. Their vague claim today doesn't actually mean anything - they claimed their target didn't go anywhere but didn't claim a target, yet that is the reason we didn't want to eliminate them yesterday, and now there is 0 pressure there. They don't seem to have any insights today when they are not being suspected.

Bell mafia because they don't stand out to me and I like to believe they've ranked up their mafia game from being super obvious tonal difference, meaning this is within their range for being mafia to me. They have done very little and has also received little pressure for that. Like Taly I have better reasons to townread other players so they drift to the bottom. Not sure what to think about the Hypo thing yet as I think it could be a joke but they didn't do it which is weird.

Save the Dragons mafia because they keep reaching for reasons to read me as mafia and for reasons to avoid voting for Marci and I don't see them thinking about Marci despite saying they resolve. It looks like nothing has resolved to me and we will still have to decide whether we want to eliminate marci or not. I pointed out that they voted for Marci, got the claim, then immediately unvoted, despite knowing that Marci was first in the draft, and that it felt like a planned move between the two of them to relieve pressure. Also their focus has been surprisingly narrow - What have they done today besides defend themself and push me? They aren't even interested in Marci anymore unless other people prod them for info.

Your Taly reason is strictly wrong because when Taly was active Taly did stand out and then Taly fell off the earth for days, no longer stood out, but got replaced. This reasoning is weak and sounds like you wrote it just to be able to write somehting.

Marci scum read here contains nothing but situational reads. "I've seen her grab this before" - Okay, so she knows that meta and can play with it. "Defended KT yesterday" - As did about half the town, including some who were on his wagon. The wagon was garbage. "Looked like white knighting" - need some contexts for which posts looked like white knighting, Dunn. This is the first salient point you've made, though. I could see this. "Vague claim" - They followed agreed on orders. "Claimed target...." - Followed orders to try and reduce cop check reductions and has a generally useless result if true. Reading her off her own result here is... ? "the reason we wanted to eliminate them yesterday" nope. Wanted to eliminate them yesterday because they were scummy in their defensive reactions despite multiple reach outs. "No insight today" - This is the second salient point you've made. Marci has been fucking MIA the whole day. I would have expected her to weigh in more as town with people protecting her but the fact she's not is weird.

Here's a question though. If Marci is scum, has a protective bubble of sorts, why isn't she weighing in to try and decide an elimination?

Bell: "don't stand out" Huh? Bell has been staring me in the face since day 1, including why I suspected him. There's lots of reasons to think Bell is sussy. This is not one of them. "Upped his scum game" I'd like to think so too, but people are currently assuring me he's doing the town thing that I've never learned to identify from him so. "Done little" -Very true, complained about this today "recieved no pressure" buddy I started a whole ass wagon on day 1 and tried to get Unwnd on board and had Bell not done a thing that apparently convinced unwnd and half the townies that he was super tonally obvious town, it probably would have been the lead wagon yesterday. He has received pressure, what is this pattently untrue statement?

STD: "Reads you as scum and ignores marci" are you sure this isn't a case of a genuine scumread from a player who thinks it is townie to ignore marci today see my words on marci above? could you even tell the difference at this point? The rest of this post is about 2 things. 1) More not doing anything about Marci, see above.
2) "Narrow focus" So you mean he's tunnelled on you and defending himself from being the elimination. Is.... that really scummy? Like, again, if he truly believes you're scum and Marci might be town, wouldn't "deflect from Marci, kill the scum, defend myself" be the townie move?

Overall, you have a weak scumread that makes 0 sense (taly)
a weak reason to scum read a scummy slot that could easily be explained as "townie tunnelling you" by all measures of what you wrote (STD)
a medium reason to suspect someone who is mostly cleared by the rest of town (this is the one I vibe with the most because I also still suspect bell but I know that other people read him better than me so it's hard to not discard it for now)
And a read on a player that contains some bad logic and some fallicious arguments but also has some decent salient points that also concern me. (Marci)

Overall, your reads look like they were developed and written in a short period of time to satisfy a requirement and are not a sincerely held conviction wise as I would have liked or hoped? I mean,it's possible you are just shit at writing cases or reasons but I sort of have more respect for you than that?

I'm giving you an opportunity to read through my notes and respond and elaborate where I have issues, because how you respond might indicate more about your alignment.

oh, right. When I suspected Dunn for a time.

Yeah his reasons for his reads were bad. Like... even reading them now, Taly's like... it's not a good reason.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

sorry if i’m being annoying about the cop fight but i literally don’t get it at all

no it's fine

it's a disagreement about what a very weird kill means that has morphed into two players scumreading me over it that I don't quite comprehend doubly since I don't think they can be scum together? Or, at least, Given the state of the game I don't think I can win if they're scum together because Notty just controls Bell's vote at this point.

so if those 2 are scum together i'm pretty fucked? I have to convince Ffery and Bell both to not drink Notty KoolAid and vote with me?

But yeah at least one of them is probably town misreading me which makes me feel a need t fight strongly to be understood.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i guess i'm supposed to drop it to not make the game unbearable or something

i just hate being misunderstood when i think now at this point i may have been making the same fucking argument as Fire

i understand what you're saying now im just skeptical that it's what you meant all along because i don't really see that when reading your earlier posts

i don't think anything more that you say now can change what you said earlier though so it's done. i don't really plan to focus on it or anything, it isn't that significant of a point to me

i just had about 10x more energy than i usually do for whatever reason today and ik that i will not be capable of not just folding over in a similar situation under typical circumstances and i felt it was important not to do that here while i could

bc i think if you're scum you will outargue me 99 times out of 100

i assure you that this might be a reasonable take if i were neurotypical

but literally being unable to explain myself until i talk around the point 20 times and finally make others understand is a thing i struggle with and i suspect there will be players here who can confirm this for me but

i'll also just say like, regardless of my alignment i wouldn't use my ND nature to make this argument if it weren't true. I don't feel comfy doing that.

Like I can be scum here if you want to think that way, but I'm telling you as a player this is how I talk and act. I meant this the whole time, I was trying to sort of make this argument but struggling to articulate it.

Think I'm scum for all kinds of other reasons, but not for this. Please.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

bc i think if you're scum you will outargue me 99 times out of 100

and the other side obv is that i want to try to find you town if you are town

where if i just roll over and let you win whatever point you're trying to make i don't think i get any alignment info out of that and im just left wondering

i'm not blaming you for trying to sort me

i'm just asking you to sort me based on shit that is actually alignment indicative

like the thing about shutting down other possible worlds is a fair cop. I think there's town motivation to do that, because I personally do not want to see townblocks form that don't both include me and include people I'm certain are town?

It makes me nervous?

But that at least is something reasonable.

The "didn't mean this the whole time thing" it's... yeah, just... no.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Look.

I came into today re-evaluating but let me put to you where my reads were prior to today

FireRed(Unwnd slot)
Ydra
Notty-Bell
Ffery
Marci

but now Marci is town, so I have to re-evaluate.

But my bias wants me to say it's Notty-Ffery. That enough people read bell correctly for that to be right, and that my initial reads on Unwnd and Ydra are correct.

Truthfully though, if there's one read I'm not wanting to toss it's Unwnd town.

I have had Unwnd as my #1 town read the WHOLE GAME.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

bc i think if you're scum you will outargue me 99 times out of 100

and the other side obv is that i want to try to find you town if you are town

where if i just roll over and let you win whatever point you're trying to make i don't think i get any alignment info out of that and im just left wondering

i'm not blaming you for trying to sort me

i'm just asking you to sort me based on shit that is actually alignment indicative

like the thing about shutting down other possible worlds is a fair cop. I think there's town motivation to do that, because I personally do not want to see townblocks form that don't both include me and include people I'm certain are town?

It makes me nervous?

But that at least is something reasonable.

The "didn't mean this the whole time thing" it's... yeah, just... no.

i would expect that there are times when you are scum that you do start an argument on one track and then pivot your way into a more acceptable position when called on it. i think that's something that scum do in general

but ill accept you saying that wasn't happening in this case

of all the things i have done, i don't think i've ever done that

not without a story to sell it as having been a natural progression

i wrote a whole article about scum being about telling a story and the versimilitude of you changing your ideas from A to B being important.

So I've always known what stance I was going to take and if I change stances I need a story to show why.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

so instead of going "well I am willing to risk my game on Unwnd town here!" which frankly is how i felt the rest of this game

i feel i need to do my due dilligence and leave everyone open to consideration and prevent people from being taken off the block as possible wagons/scum for today because it's dangerous to do that in ELO.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i would be fairly surprised if this was actually unwnds wolf game

i feel similarly, but it's possible.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i guess i have different approach in general

to me (>3p) elo is the time where the thread has the highest proportion of voices that you can't trust

and that makes going in solo with just your own thoughts against the thread super dangerous because you are opening yourself up to be manipulated

i like to approach the situation trying to find a town that i can lock in and trust and start to build around bc it grounds me and helps me not just get washed over by the scum voices on the thread

but that also might just be a difference in brains and be partly due to the fact that i am very influence-able lol especially if i feel im on my own

nah, I stay alone the rest of the game most often

ELO is when all my cards need to go on the table even if it makes me look less polished so people know where my brain is at

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i am also somewhat hmm about the prevalence of the marci/ffery team theory and how that resulted in defaulting to just limming marci first

ik i didn't really argue against it either, and yea she wasn't really doing much, but still

i had a similar thought yesterday about why are we defaulting to Marci first but the answer to that is very simple

Peta wanted Marci even before most of town had coalesced on Marci/Ffery. Suspecting Ffery was something I was the introducer of, I think, but Peta wanted Marci first and I don't even blame him.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

was greyice talking about watching football a watcher crumb

I...

no he was actually on the couch watching the Niners play while he posted that

i guess it doesn't preclude it being a crumb but

[Lady Lambdadelta]

that was 80% a joke

but he did say the word "watch" in 2 of his first 4 posts!

oh

i see

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Originally I wanted to compare kinda how any sort of side eye got immediately deterred by her and I feel like she’s been in this slot where she makes just thinking of voting her a bad thing

Okay, first of all.

Of course I'm going to deter any side eye I get in ELO. Of course I want to make voting me a bad thing in ELO. That's NAI. I, as a townie, don't want these things.

and I'm super paranoid about having lived to this point and being eliminated as the final town losing elim.

It would be way different if I was trying to shut down suspicions and stuff say, not in ELO. Like in Ygg. That's possibly scummier, yes, but in ELO where I lose if I'm eliminated it's NAI on all fronts.

As for the "not moving on" stuff, Notty. It's not the same. It's not REMOTELY the same. Here I didn't want to move on because I had something I was saying and I wanted to be understood at minimum because my brain was pounding. It was strategy, it was fear of being twisted and misunderstood.

In Ygg it was because Cabd was a slot who was MEANT TO BE DEAD AND CAME BACK TO LIFE and so we didn't expect to need his town read, we hinged our game on his town read and when he put us in a losing slot and people were going to just follow his reads because he was a living confirmed townie due to the mod error, I had to try and CHANGE those reads and challenge them or the team lost the game on the spot.

This is not a similar situation in the slightest.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

And also, I tell people all the time that they don't get to move on from things as town.

There was a game not long ago where I was town and I suspected Dwlee and i pushed Dwlee hard and they got upset and people tried to move it on and I went "no no no we're doing this" and people got mad at me and we were both town, Dwlee and I.

it's not as if my need to be understood and my need to finish saying all i have to say and make sure i'm understood are new things. i can do them as either alignment, particularly because they are related to my neurodivergence.

Ygg is a different situation. It was tactical there, it was clearly tactical there and I got caught. One big part of it was also Cabd was already scumreading me so throwing shit at the wall was the only way out.

Here I literally engaged it on my own. To try and have people understand my point of view. Not to get any one specific person to change their mind.

IT's way way way way different.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You gonna let me interact with the person everyone seems to be most suspecting to be aligned with, or you going to step in the lines of questioning?

Why is me defending myself such a problem for you?

I'm not stepping into your questioning line like this is day 1 or some shit. This is ELO.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Originally I wanted to compare kinda how any sort of side eye got immediately deterred by her and I feel like she’s been in this slot where she makes just thinking of voting her a bad thing

this was a big part of my original suspicion coming into the day fwiw

in what way, precisely?

Like, seriously. Beyond Bell and I yesterday in particular when did I step in and deter suspicion.

For example, GreyICE suspected me. I didn't deter that. Dunn suspected me and engaged with me on it, I engaged with that without detering it.

People spent ALL GAME calling me "town but I dunno actually, paranoia, range, hmmm" and I talked about why it bothered me but I didn't explicitly go after people until today.

The later thegame went, the more these comments concerned me, I agree. I think the only time I really did this thing you're talking about is yesterday with Bell.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Moreover I just don't get how defending yourself is scummy in any capacity because you can look at any of my games and oops there's me, defending myself from being pushed at scum.

Here, one moment.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

viewtopic.php?sid=&f=11&t=90297&user_select%5B%5D=14306

This ISO contains a recent game in which I did exactly what you're describing me doing now. Because I spent the whole game under pressure and having to defend myself.

I'll go grab HotD Day 1 too, where shea suspecting me via paranoia enough to preclude me from Council picks had me begging him to just shoot me and getting frustrated with him.

This is not a new trend. I don't like being suspected. It's -EV for me as either alignment. I avoid interfering with it in earlier days where I can but in truth I'm pretty well active in protecting myself from dying as all alignments.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

viewtopic.php?t=90102

HotD Day 1, for you.

Look I'm not gonna flood this thread with posts sufficient others can't have conversations, but this is frustrating me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

by which i mean i'm going to go make a roux for mac and cheese and maybe get high or something

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also I'm sorry

I've lost a lot of my chill today and i dont like it. It's bothering me a lot ans i want to say sorry if ive put anyone off

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I am busy this qeekend. Had so much sushiii

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Please unvote =/

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I know it takes 2 misvotes to be bad but.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It can't be ended my dude.

It's 4 votes to eliminate and 2 scum remaining.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

guys can i make this simple for you both

any universe in which you think my win path for winning this game as scum!lld runs through trying to kill a player who says things like "my reading comprehension is bad, wait that makes me town right guys?" and people just agree because there's not enough range in that player's schemes to do that as scum

does not exist.

or do you think i'm daft or something

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like, i'm here today to kill Ffery and then ffery's partner. and the only person that's definitely not for me is Bell.

because today's interactions are a lot of hocum. if i get eliminated, scum win and that's the path we're on and oh look suspiciously quiet

but if ffery goes down, and i'm going to talk assuming she's scum, there is a lot of anti-spew all over the place from that slot and frmo others towards her.

and to me personally it feels like every slot in the game scumreads ffery, but i'm the one slated to die, and whether that's Notty pushing me as Ffery's partner, or Fire/Ydra letting it happen as Ffery's partner I'm not quite sure yet.

But that's where I'm standing.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I was addressing bells comment I don’t actually think he’s going to die today

okay, then i got confused

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD, real quick.
Can you link me the game that Penguinalien miseliminated you in?

eh?

You're gonna have to be more specific than that I don't recall this off the top.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Fire’s pool is pretty narrow.
He’s announcing that it’s FF/LLD,
And if one of those is false it’s him with FF/LLD.

thats what i see right now

its more that if one of those are town then i do not know who of the other 3 i am misreading

here's my thing

I get the sense you're scum reading me based on an impression you have of me that I don't know is fully true, but combined with the fear/paranoia/respect you have for me it's hard to get off.\

I'd like the opportunity to show myself as town to you and I never really do this because it always just backfires and the person you ask just goes "well there's nothing because it's all wifom"

but

if you're town here, then I need to be able to convince you that I'm town too. so I need to have a talk with you about your hesitances on me and try to show you I'm town, try to towncase myself for you.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

when is our deadline?

can we request an extension, lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It’s in three and a half days

fuckkk dude

i wanted to case ffery and stuff this is the worstttt i've been busyyyy

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I talk from all perspectives to solve and discuss. I mean hell.

Consider this, both of you.

Scum LLD wrote a whole article about yelling a story for others to buy into. Why would scum LLD spend all her WIM today on something pointless and then flounder coming into the day without a story?.

See several people today have described me as having an agenda but I don't see what possible agenda I could have. Is it just a buzzword used to discard my words?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

*telling

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yeah I just.

I feel rudderless today.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Simple as in like

Breaking down my arguments

Not simple as in simple choice

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Its a turn of phrase.

Similar to "can I break this down for you?"

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I will note LLD that you've spent this day phase largely trying to convince everyone as if they were town that you're town and not to vote you without seemingly trying to push anyone or even using these conversations you're setting up to dig into others perspectives to see if they're scum for it.

See: Rudderless

I know what I know at this point. I know I'm town. It's hard to push when you feel like you need to defend yourself.

I could pick any 2 names and not feel confident at this point. I'm not like, perfect at this shit. Confidemce doesn't overflow my cup you know

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So did you play with PenguinAlien off site or something.

I don't know what you are talking about.

As for the game you were talking about earlier with PA. The only game i can find where I'm town with PA is Bloodstained? But i didn't die in that one?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Why is the story not “everyone is just super paranoid because of my reputation”

Because everyone is but if I says that it gets weaponized against me.

I'm snookered. If I talk about the paranoia I deepen it. If I ignore it, people settle into it as common truth.

How can I combat that?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So instead ive focused on other behaviours that don't make sense for scum me. Tried to point back to early days. Tried to show why my moves don't make sense as scum.

Tried to argue my way to showing my alignment. It feels like almost all I can manage to do.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I want the opportunity to prove myself today before we do that. I... I don't want... Mmm.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like I understand her point about that it’s tricky to combat it but it just very much feels like trying to weasel her way into our townreads

I just think it’s weird to simultaneously say there’s no plan or story when the story she’s been pushing all day is she’s slated to die thanks to paranoia, and she’s keeping her options open about who scum is based off who bites

I dunno dude. I’m actively trying to reevaluate my read on ffery and I just reread some of late unwnd, I just don’t know how to deal with the weird play from the two of them today

Ninja-
I don’t think she is dude

Like I’m trying to pocket check myself but, I just don’t know

Ninja-
Hnnnnnng

Yes. I am trying to weasel my way into your town reads.

Full stop.

If you are town, it is how we win this game. I cannot afford to be misread today.

If my methods are giving you concerns, what methods can I use that wouldn't? This is what I mean. If I approach you like this, you get this sensation. If I dont, you become resigned to status quo.

I want you to accept that town or scum LLD needs to be townread by you and instead consider how I am going about this and how I have approached this game as the method to read me instead.

Or do what you need and look at Ffery and Unwnd and Ydra. And see if you can't find scum there too. If you cant read me read around me but... Dont half ass it.

If you are town here I need you to find me town. It is game required.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

As for keeping my options open, I want to kill Ffery today. I'm settled on that. It's only the partner I don't know. I can't see a world where Ffery isn't scum here.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also grey ice had a few comments about ydra starting in 3009 that kinda are interesting

Ninja
I’ve literally been playing full cards on the table so please don’t tell me I’m half assing Shit.

Maybe that is too harsh but it has felt to me like you look at Ffery and see nothing like what I see.

And you read Luke and see town and that's... Difficult for me too.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Look you want my full breakdown by phone posting here it is

Remove all bell worlds and obviously I'm not scum.

Leaves

Ydra/Fire
Ydra/Ffery
Ydra/Notty
Fire/Ffery
Fire/Notty
Ffery/Notty

I'll post on each of them in order

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Ydra and Fire are a possible team, but it requires Ffery to be town here after the possible 1-2 of her setting up the Firebringer hammer on STD. The real selling point for me is the unwnd drunk push on Ydra that then he gets sober and undies and pushes to STD again. It's hard to see unwnd doing that to a partner.

It's a possible world but not a likely world given what must be true to make it true.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I mean I’ll read the case if it’s posted

I genuinely don’t know what is missing lmao and it’s why I’ve tried asking bell to pocket check me and I want to hear fires ydra read explanation I’m just like, in a holding pattern doing rereads of different ISOs trying to reconcile the information

I mean I'll write that if I can but the truth is since I know I'm town the easiest way to show you something is wrong is to show you I'm town.

You're saying you don't know what is missing but.... look I'll write the case in long form when I'm less tired. RN what you're getting out of me is the pair associatives I've been doing all day while feeling rudderless.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Ydra/Ffery requires that Ydra is hard bussing Ffery which given the situation is sort of true for any person except Notty. It... actually tracks pretty well. Luke and Ydra weren't really organic at each other in a re-read and their positions on the drafting board along with Taly match up too (3/5/6 as number picks, and being 9/11/12 in picks virtually guarantees the scenario where scum get no powers exists as a real possibile outcome.

in earlier days, Ydra's stances on Taly were a little weak overall and Luke's stances on Ydra feel a little partnerish too, but none of that is conclusive to me either because Ydra has, as I've said felt literally town to me the whole game. Like I still look at the Ydra ISO and see "town". It's a struggle.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Ydra/Notty isn't particularly likely. The reason for this is it would be SUPER easy for Ydra to work her way onto me as a vote here and kill me. With Bell onboarded by Notty and Fire already thinking it's Ffery+I, they only need Ydra's vote, realistically. This pair basically can't exist, from my POV.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I mean we’re both in the same boat, don’t overdo it I just like

I want to take this game to the finish line regardless of how it shakes out and if we’re all just apathetic nothing gets done but also real life first

it's important to me i don't let people down

which is hard because my energy levels aren't what i want them to be but i'm pushing and trying now to WIM for the sake of my slot

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Fire/Ffery is a really interesting pairing. Again, I townread fire which makes it sort of similar to the Ydra/Ffery pairing in which I see all these scummy Ffery moves and I'm now looking for partner tracks to see if Fire fits the bill.

The best point for this world existing is that Day 1 Unwnd literally had luke dead to rights, called Luke scum all day and from my PoV I now see Unwnd was dead on.

and then Unwnd all of a sudden backed off. I was ready to support that elimination because Unwnd had it and had the cred on prior luke reading to do it. Unwnd's sudden back off gave Luke life. It was almost like they were looking to bus but not make it look like a real death option and then when it was looking realistic, Luke made a post, Unwnd called it town and it went away.

Additionally, Fire putting me and ffery together here and pushing me as scum over Ffery does mean they'd be going for the win today.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Fire/Notty is possible along the same lines as above. Both pushing to kill me, have found ways to hard clear each other and Notty would be open wolfing today to draw in Bell+Ffery as the winning votes.

The downsides here are that this means Ffery is town which I sort of am struggling with believing but this is the strongest Ffery town world that exists in my POV.

In earlier days, I admit, I've not really had the WIM to look back at Unwnd/Notty interactions, partially because i really am convinced ffery is scum? I'll do my due dilligence on it soon, but my recollection is that notty didn't really step in the way of Unwnd as much as I thought he might if he was town here?

Actually Notty why didn't you step in the path of the STD wagon on day 2 or the KT wagon day 1?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Ffery/Notty is the sort of prima facie Ffery world where Ffery is on the block to die today and Notty shifts the target to LLD instead using his positioning as a townie during this day. Convinces town Fire, and ropes in Bell. It's everything above post describes about the LLD approach, because well, if notty is scum here this is what he is doing It's markedly more likely than Fire being scum, I'll say.

Early day interactions between Luke and Notty involved some back and forth that could very easily be scum engagement in thread (the stuff they put in spoiler tags with each others names).

[Lady Lambdadelta]

STD tilt

KT iirc I was reading marci stronger town and actually had been the first to throw a non-KT-non-marci name out despite the entire game consolidating there

Basically STD I just shrugged and KT or marci were going to die and I was much more Confident marci towb

tilt on what? Like what caused the tilt?

And Marci, you were sure Marci was town? Why not push for Ffery to die then, or did you have Ffery town even yesterday too?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Look you want my full breakdown by phone posting here it is

Remove all bell worlds and obviously I'm not scum.

Leaves

Ydra/Fire
Ydra/Ffery
Ydra/Notty
Fire/Ffery
Fire/Notty
Ffery/Notty

I'll post on each of them in order

So with Ydra/Fire not likely and Ydra/Notty basically off the table, that leaves Ydra's only partner as Ffery.

So if I thikn Ydra's scum, it's safer to kill ffery today. So I won't vote Ydra.


Ydra/Ffery
Fire/Ffery
Fire/Notty
Ffery/Notty

As a result the only NON-FFERY world that exists now is Fire/Notty. So I'm pretty well set on wanting to kill Ffery, because I think fire individually is pretty ljely to be town (Unwnd was my number 1 town read all game, there's something to be said to listenign to past me).

But I will do due diligence on Fire/Notty worlds before I commit to a Ffery elimination, and I especially want to do work on narrowing the pool of Ffery's possible partners.

Which is where I feel rudderless, because I have to prove my own innocence, have town kill ffery and not me, and then even if Ffery flips scum, I need to find the Ffery partner and eliminate them while dealing with more of the paranoia around me.

It's... just a lot to do on my own.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

that's all my cards on the table. i was hoping to have more certainty when i came to the table, so i could make a better case but i just don't. i feel somewhat certain that ffery is scum and that's approximately it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@LLD i understand what you want and i really think that if you're town the most useful thing you can do right now to show yourself and win is find me a scum besides ffery

im not going to disregard things you say just bc i think you're more likely scum i will read them and genuinely consider it

but i don't think that you primarily focusing on just getting people to think that you're town is going to do the trick for me bc there isn't anything about that which you wouldn't be doing as scum

what do you think i'm trying to do showing my hand right now

do you know what happens if you're scum or even if you're town and i show you a townie? we lose on the spot, because there exists no townie, no, no player in this game who when pushed by me in this scenario won't reciprocally push me, instead of consider my push and go "oh, well, that's possibly town"

so I get ONE shot at this. Precisely one.

So I've been going through the worlds, examining, ensuring for my own sanity that yes Ffery is pretty well always my vote here today because that's step 1. that's the due dilligence of step one. step one ends when i decide whether you+notty is a feasable world in my eyes, or whether it's always just Ffery+Another.

Then it's the matter of finding Ffery's partner, assuming I come to the conclusion I'm leaning towards. And yes, I get it, you'll have a better idea of how to read me once I lock in but also?

it scares me that you're saying the only way to find me town here is for me to lock in on someone and commit, because that's the kind of Only Sith Deal In Absolutes that scum would angle for to more or less lock away a win.

Like in the world where you are scum here, Fire, right and I know you know your alignment from your own PoV but look at mine for a second yeah?

In a world where it's Ffery/Fire (or Ffery/Notty) you pushing for this angle is a way for you to lock it away. It presumes my townread on you, and my need TO be townread is weaponized against me forcing me to lock in on someone else before I'm ready to "Earn" a town read by other measures, when by all metrics from my PoV you've said very little about what makes me scum besides "agenda" and "defends self" which can make you a townie, to be clear. I was certainly wrong enough on your slot in HotD to know that I'm not locked in on reading you, but it makes me nervous.

In short, it asks me to lock in on someone else to earn your possible townread, which if you're town... great. But as scum that's a winning move that people overlook as just "Well this is the way Fire has read the game so now they're asking LLD to prove it". It's a way to avoid you being the cross vote with me in ELO. because I think everyone and their mudder knows I'm going to be crossvoting in ELO.

I'm rambling at this point. All of this is to say that I'll make you a deal, essentially. I am, regardless of deals going to have to go back and look at everything and decide who I think it is, with you included in that pool. It will help me make my choice if you pitch something that looks to me like good faith to read my interactions with Luke/Ffery and Taly day 1 and 2, along with the rest of my play in general and show me where and how you're reading me.

Your internalized read progression is short because you're a replacement. In Ffery terms, I don't have a trajectory on you. You showing me what you're thinkign and the due dilligence of early day reads will help ME read YOU.

Because if you're town in this scenario, you do have to help me find you town as well, and you can't just rest on your laurels of the fact that I townread your slot very heavily, and just expect that to be enough.

More rambling. Deal is this. I'll show you read progression on every non-ffery player as an individual and why I stand where I stand and attempt to give you an ordered list of where I stand for the moment, between today and tomorrow and the night phase.

You show me... the same, actually. Let's just make it fully even. You do this for Notty Ydra LLD and I'll do Notty Ydra Fire. And we can compare notes.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

god, that was so long why can't i like, be concise lmfao

why do i have to talk around everything

[Lady Lambdadelta]

more later but briefly my point wasn't really that you should be hunting scum for the purposes of "earning my townread", thats not really what im saying?

my point was that i think your focus on earning townreads and etc is sort of muddying things and making it harder to get a read on your activity today because it's self-focused in a way that could be easily duplicated if you're scum or if you're town bc the motivations are exactly the same

not unlike what you're saying about me here which is probably accurate

like you say that it's something you want to do anyway. all im saying is that i want to see it and don't want you to get distracted and spend your time with towncasing yourself or whatever because i think it will be less useful

it feels like you want me to lay out exactly what you need to do in order for me to townread you so that you can do it and like... you see the issue there, right? thats not what i want your motivation to be. scum and town both want to be found as town. but scum want to yeet townies and town want to find scum. focusing on the former makes the two hard to tell apart. focusing on the latter has more of a chance at being divergent

yeah I get it. We're at a cross roads of trust and it's difficult to take the first step in that way.

That's why I said the deal of I'll write a full game exploration of Ydra/Notty/You and you do the same for Ydra/Notty/Me and we see where we align in thoughts. Fuck it, if you're willing to be patient I'll even do all mine first, which gives you a chance to copy off me I guess? I'm not that worried you'll try and mind meld me at this point so.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

then let's both do it? like

you respect and understand that my goal is to get townread and i respect and understand that your fear is to townread the wrong people so we have to find a method to let me show myself as town where you can also have judgement reserved.

i get that because i also need judgement reserved on you to sort you too so

gahhh

you get it

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because i don't actually town read bell.

I scunread bell on contact because i hate the way he plays.

I have a bias.

But people literally stopped me from killing him day 1 and these are people who know this dude.

His whole shtick is if I'm scum I die day 1 if I'm town I am townread forever.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I have been saying this for days this isn't something new.

I have been saying for days I only townread bell because too many people have the pseudo bell trust tell thing on saying he is 100% town. Too many dead flipped townies. Too many living players.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Bell exclusively works with me or ffery ONLY

And that means the other is snowed

What he said.

Unwnd interactions with bell day 1 not scum scum.

I'm never wcum with Bell.

Ydra... I dunno but honestly if it's ydra/bell I literally can't win because Ffery and Notty will never vote bell out anyway.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

A day one readslist is wishywashy?

Crazy

That's not a defense.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

A day one readslist is wishywashy?

Crazy

That's not a defense.

I’m not trying to defend it lol

Okay but you come off defensive and deflecting the argument.

Ydra is arguing you seemed cagey and unwilling to give actual info. Yes day 1 reads aren't the best reads but thar doesn't defend coming across as cagey.

I want an answer to that, if possible. Trying not to sound too lawyer mode imperial here.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i don’t expect a readslist to be firm in everything but it gives me the feeling of someone who is really... unwilling? to like say too much

This is a gross misrepresentation of the gamestate. Day one is when everyone and their mother was playing that stupid cards to the chest bullshit that was pissing me off, and yeah, I was wishywashy, but at least I put shit out so people could look back to fucking read

Everyone?

I believe there are two players still alive in this game who weren't. Okay 2 slots.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

But I do agree day 1 was cagey. So cagey that Bell rushed an elimination on KT prior to a claim.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It's not different.

These are both true statements.

If bell is scum we lose because of the bullshit trust tell nonsense that needs to die

And I don't think bell CAN be scum because of that same trust tell bullshit that needs to die.

What you are seeing dissonance wise is the internal fight between my desire to kill bell on the spot and my desire not to game throw against my better logical instincts combined with my frustration and hatred of the bell trust tell thing in general alignment neutrally.

Also, like, we are 13 people in this body so if something comes off tonally diffetent but says essentially the same thing guess what. It's the same argument with different people doing the yugioh mind shuffle.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Watch me mindshuffle again oooohhh

[Lady Lambdadelta]

We also specifically told Bell pregame it would be fine if this happened because we wanted to play with our friends. We wish to retain this promise by not taking it out overly on Bell, which becomes difficult because having to discuss the giant pillar roadblocking what would otherwise be normal play for us frustrates most if not all of us.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You recognize this is the same shit with the GreyICE death convo right.

You think you have found some cognitive dissonance only to be told that no this is how I respond

Only this time you were told by someone who scumreads me.

Like this is an NAI stance and behaviour pattern. I talk around all of a point. I wish above all wishes you would stop trying to use this as a gotcha.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Essentially that would be her town POV but I also think she’s well aware because this conversation has been had before

Mmhmm. Alignment non indicative as a stance. This is the town LLD stance that scum LLD has 0 issues replicating because it's just a nominal frustration we have we dont even need to lie or manipulate about.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

my point isn't really about how you feel about bell or his playstyle

its about how you were handling him differently at the start of the day and saying you wanted to consider everyone possible scum and had him in the middle of your reads on the same line as notscience

and then you stopped considering him at all at some point in there and i still don't know why that switch happened

Yeah I came into the day saying "let me reset my whole shit"

And then quickly realized that I could not do that with Bell. I am intrinsically biased. So I fell back to the logical aspect.

This is not inconsistent in any manner.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Sure but now you are arguing, quite literally

"In ELO you started the day saying you wanted to read bell and now when you gave your read update you have cleared him".

Yes. That's how read updates work. My reason for my read being external doesn't make this not how read progressions function. I did my due diligence. I have discussed my due diligence. I've discussed literally all sides of this FOR that due diligence.

And came to this opinion.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Literally day 3 I say "bell is town because people say he is"

Start of day 4 I say "I need to reset my reads post Marci everyone is on the table."

During the day I poke people about Bell reads and interact with bell.

Eventually I come to a conclusion and post that conclusion.

This. Is. What. Consistent. Scum. Hunting. Looks. Like.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Arguing that I somehow flipped my stance for no reason instead of discussimg something and then affirming my belief is literally the GreyICE convo again.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like your whole argument is "these two pieces dont fit together" and when I show you how they do you move the goalposts and say "no i meant this" so when I show you how that isn't realistic either you go "well i don't know if you meant that the whole time or you invented it" and then I give a sitcom look to the camera and die a little inside.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm trying my best to contain my frustration and anger to being snarky here. My apologies if you felt that last post was mischaracterizing you. It probably was. You aren't really moving the goalposts so much as being unclear and then badgering me on something again until I snap.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm gonna step back for a bit, finish my bath and then go get stabbed in the junk for surgical prep again as a way to calm down.

Wish me luck, lol?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

We have some time. We are all limited rn it feels.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like your whole argument is "these two pieces dont fit together" and when I show you how they do you move the goalposts and say "no i meant this" so when I show you how that isn't realistic either you go "well i don't know if you meant that the whole time or you invented it" and then I give a sitcom look to the camera and die a little inside.

i don't really get why im not allowed to question an inconsistency (or at the very least an unexplained/unsupported shift) in your approach and try to understand why that happened when to me it seems like a shift that makes more sense as a path towards accomplishing scum goals/priorities than one that fits town goals/priorities

im not really sure how to function here to be honest

what do you want me to say

"yes, you're right, i'm definitely playing towards scum priorities and being loose and sloppy and contradicting myself"

I'm town. You're wrong. I'm arguing against your points. This stance you are taking where you act so wounded that I'm literally defending myself and arguing against your points is really frustrating.

Remember that you asked ME. What answer did you EXPECT?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

He was on VLA

And you really can't see the value protecting a claimed Marci and forcing an elimination on another player when scum had 0 power roles and were cop hunting?

Push to claim, defend for town cred, pivot to kill another slot is like.... Textbook rolefishing scumplay

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like it concerns me more than a little that you don't see that.

That Marci was driven to claim, KT was summarily eliminated WITHOUT a claim and then Ceph was shot and ALL OF THOSE were prime cop possibles no?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

He was on VLA

And you really can't see the value protecting a claimed Marci and forcing an elimination on another player when scum had 0 power roles and were cop hunting?

Push to claim, defend for town cred, pivot to kill another slot is like.... Textbook rolefishing scumplay

STD?

Yeah I suspect that is why STD was quick hammered and Ffery enabled that by putting them to E-1 for Fire to quick hammer.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

*sniffs*

I don't get it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I’m rereading around the back half of day one.

1598 feels like a town post. I agree with the frustrations expressed and have felt that all game.

1604 looks bad in retrospect with three town in the bottom of the list but poor results doesn’t mean scum

1703 I forgot ydra was the person who recommended hypo. Unsure if this is something she’d do as scum. In the world where she’s scum it means town would be off a cliff which would mean they could narrow down easier but apparently there’s more strategy that goes into hypo than I realized so meh

1820 *twitch*

oh my god i actually said that ahahahhah

well i got proved right i guess

was this the plan all along?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If ydras town where am I wrong aaaaaa

ffery's scum mate

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Question for Notty, LLD went relatively quiet when they were voted. Why did you unvote them?

relatively quiet?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Putting up a "not voting" for the sake of elo vote logic but otherwise also ready to kill ffery

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vote: Ffery

E-1

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hi would anyone be mad at me if i voted because i know who i want to vote

Yes probably lol.

You are like 100% certain never being shaken?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm also sort of in a position where I only think it can be one person.

Do you want to discuss that with each other?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

this is awkward. erm. i kind of think it's most likely to be you based off of luke/taly/ffery's isos when i was reading in bed but im not sure, my opener was just like "heyyyy guys lol how we feeling" and i feel like i have sensible reasons to not suspect fire/notsci (the latter is the one i'm more unsure of)

It's just Notty in my mind. It's unfortunate, but the end of the day sort of proved it for me. Ffery's illness wasn't planned. Ffery was meant to come out and more or less waffle then trajectory onto me yesterday, Notty would sway Bell, and Fire suspects me and boom that's 4 votes and the game ends.

But now, Notty's got a partner who is sick with covid and can't sell that, the time ticks down, it's less than 12 hours left.... She's dying without a defense.

We get the Notty Sigh.

And that sigh speaks volumes, for me.

Notty knows what was essentially a sure win now turns into a more or less 1v1. He knows I'm not going to go down without a fight, and now he has to yell across the board at me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

and i feel like the things that i would call towny for you are probably NAI if i turn off my heart

isn't the same true in reverse though?

Like, the scummy things are more paranoia at my existence in this stage of the game than they are actually scummy things I've done.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, look.

If Fire was the scum with Ffery, Fire just grabs Notty on board and pushes me earlier.

Notty TRIED to vote me yesterday as a buffer to Ffery and no one else jumped on, and was forced to unvote or enter a weird spot.

If Fire was scum, Fire uses that scenario to his advantage there, a stated scumread on me, constantly frustrating fights with me.

It's not Fire.

And you, Ydra, you were the only one left as a result who could be partnered with Ffery, but the connections there don't add up. You also had a chance to kill me yesterday. All you had to do was flip and say you really liked Fire's world view.

there was enough pressure yesterday to kill me, easily. I felt my death coming, that's why I was struggling so much. I was a townie feeling on the death block in ELO.

But only ONE person actually pulled that trigger in an attempt to try and save their floundering (not Ffery's fault, but alas) scum partner.

It was Notty. It IS Notty.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

it was more like moments of interaction with taly/luke that weren't game related that i thought for a while probably wouldn't be s/s but i tend to put a lot of weight on those sort of more sentimental moments

what was notty's like... trajectory this game for you then, or what's the gameplan outside of yesterday's eod? his draft number and like... what feels like him not knowing what the hell is going on for this game feels townier to me atm than it did yesterday

The game plan was they picked double numbers to ride it out.

One of Taly or Notty would always die, they play without powers as shown here, the other one would be super towny and protect the last one.

But the last one dropped the fucking Ball, Ydra. WE LOST YESTERDAY. Straight up. I'm willing to just admit that. I'd have died yesterday and we were done as a town.

It was a stroke of bad luck for Notty but I'm not one who will look those gifts in the eye.

This was planned, orchastrated. The pushes to a claim, the quick hammers, ALL of it.

Imagine, why did FB need to quick hammer STD? Wasn't necessary, STD probably dies anyway.

No, but it guarantees that no STD claim saves him, like if he was a COP. AND it kills the most suspicious scum player for the next day putting Notty in a GREAT drafting spot.

Notty looks hyper clear, they find the cop by process of elimination and now Notty gets to set up his tradjectory. Kill Marci over Ffery when it's Marci/Ffery team. Then deflect off Ffery, say you'll never kill Ffery on the next day and push at a townie.

It was a WON GAME if Ffery is even remotely conscious.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like you can see that tradjectory right?

Pick up the Gambit, play a clean day 1, end day 1 with a bad elimination, shoot for cop in top 3. Day 2, probably just let Dunn die, but then Luke replaces out and Taly replaces out and RH9 tanks the Taly slot when Peta bonks him, and FB is brought in. FB's dead man walking, but has a bit of a chance on my STD pressure. Fortunate timing this time for them, given STD just flipped scum and looked similar, to me. Use Ffery to set the votes to e-1, FB hammers, clears notty by all accounts.

Get a kill at night, shoot GreyICE (this is the only part that doesn't make sense but I did read back the other day and I found something for this. Dunnstral immediately after the FB hammer went all "you know he might have been the cop!" and I wonder if FB wasn't fooled by that into thinking Dunn can't be the cop so they shot GreyICE as the cop. And it's why Notty was so against that as a possible outcome. It was the truth.

So then FB dies for free next day. they figure out oh it's just Dunn because of bad hypos(me, Bell) and Marci results (Fire). they shoot dunn.

A lot of us push Marci/Ffery but suspiciously it's Marci who dies first. I still think Peta was the main proponent of this selection, but it works out for Notty here. Kill Marci, shoot Peta as conf town.

come into next day, push LLD. Been alive too long. Paranoia built all game.

They've shot nothing but confirmed townies and PRS all game because they HAD to. Because they locked themselves into a strategy wherein they get no roles.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So when you consider late game pushing choices, who will you push?

Bell? Never happening.
Fire? Tracked to nothing twice, already on a super townie Unwnd slot.
Ydra? Townread universally the whole game. He DOES try, at the BEGINNING of the day to go after you Ydra. Remember that? He starts positing "hey why does everyone think Ydra is town when she's done nothing?" and I go "hmm" and then go "AH BUT YDRA SO TOWN THOUGH".

That was the moment he changed his strategy, Ydra. You weren't touchable, I would lean into my gut and save you. Fire was too hard as well, Bell wasn't happening, and Ffery was scum so it's easy right?

Trajectory leads itself. I'm the final miselimination. and I played into his hands by being as paranoid as I was. I really genuinely fucked up the last game day. It's a miracle I lived out of it, but now I see, my eyes are clear and I SEE.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Even when you look at the Luke/Notty and Ffery/Notty interactions, it's there. The weird awkward stilted "posting at each other in spoilers" thing they did. The way Notty tried to onboard Ffery into a 3 man boat with Bell to get a voting block to kill me.

Honestly if anyone saved this game it's Bell. Bell agreeing to vote with us on ffery even as he thought he was losing the game while doing it.

Bell was beginning to sour on Notty, and so Notty shot him last night.

I have a MUCH MUCH better shot last night if I'm scum. I shoot Fire and it frames Bell, it frames Notty. It frames you, Ydra.

Everything goes to chaos if I'm scum, because I shoot Fire.

But notty needed the person who was suspicious of me alive, Bell's a near confirmed townie so it looks like a basic shot, but it also kills Bell before he can fully flip on Notty and leaves his last will as essentially "i don't know" which is good for Notty.

Everything adds up, it all literally flows from check to check to check. This is the answer, and I recognize that it's going to be hard to get you both to see it past the way I played yesterday but that's my goal for today. To win, as a town, I have to show you why Notty is more likely to be scum here than I am. Why notty is the last scum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

(i will read and respond later not ignoring just cannot Think!)

it's fine, we have time.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm just going to be doing my best to do what I should have done yesterday now that I am set and my mind is clear and I know who my enemy is.