X-Men: Age of Apocalypse (Game Over)

Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:53 am

Need a VC ASAP but I'd really like it if we can objectify

Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:59 am

I'm just saying you don't really seem to be concerned with why he's being so ardently defended in lieu of potshotting at the one person who is obvious town about this whole endeavor

whatever, I ended up not having to out anyone

Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:12 am

I'm not going to definitively know what needs to be done until a VC gets posted

But I'd like to get either the sensor or killstop (or detective at an outside third shot)

Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:20 am

Ika unvote and you can be
Hammer

Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:25 am

If we could get rogue and toog off and eek feu and me on that would be ideal

Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:25 am

Skot and ika would sandwich

Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:02 am

PV why were you not down for the MS lynch

Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:26 am

Even with the continual revising of claimed results?

Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:29 am

Not really I just want
Toog to unvote,
ika to unvote,
Eek to vote,
Feu to Vote,
me to Vote,
ika to revote

Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:33 am

Alternate title: Herding Cats Mafia

Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:36 am

In post 5414, borkjerfkin wrote:Even with the continual revising of claimed results?

Because the first thing I don't even remotely think to do under pressure when town asked to claim is "I'm going to fuck around with my results and then when called out on it give a reason for doing it that makes no sense"

Now if he's making them up, on the other hand...

Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:42 am

You're right, it's not that cut and dry, therefore you have to bring inductive reasoning into it.

Metal "Town visited S4TD last night"
Snowstorm "Actually I have strong reason to believe they commuted and here's the transcript of why"
Metal "Just kidding no one did, Snowstorm is scum (???)"

How is this legitimate to you?

Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:42 am

In post 5422, PeregrineV wrote:but they really just have to ride the backs of stupid town

This being me then?

Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:47 am

Not to mention I still have no reason to believe any town player visited nero n1

But id better not talk about that or toog will yell at me again

Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:54 am

This entire game is an exercise in the path of least resistance for about 75% of the game

Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:58 am

That's not my point. I COULD potentially see myself doing any of those things to Nero depending on the gamestate.

I just don't think anyone did due to a combination of claims I know to exist and people's attitude's toward the wagon. I'd expect that if I were the one that had visited Nero and MS correctly called that out, it would give me some amount of pause.

We also know the role wasn't protective unless you want to say that other team also has a strongman (which I guess isn't impossible)

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:07 am

In post 5431, PeregrineV wrote:ika was probably Jailkept, probably by scum to prevent his tracking, giving a no result.

Jailkeepers don't work like that

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:08 am

In post 5432, PeregrineV wrote:He is the town doing the visiting, regardless of any other town that visited. Probably.

Metal has made no statement that this is the case

And if the role does work like that it's fucking dumb

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:12 am

In post 5435, PeregrineV wrote:Sure they do. Nothing gets in, nothing gets out.

No.

Jailkeepers do not prevent actions from being done on a person, just actions taken BY that person.

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:13 am

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jailkeeper

There actually is a variant that does what you said but I've literally never seen it used

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:16 am

Good question.

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:19 am

Ninjas are immune to watching

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:21 am

You could watch them, yes

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:23 am

Anyway I have reached critical burnout on this and it doesn't particularly look like anything I am posting is affecting anyone's opinion in any meaningful way nor is it getting me any personally closer to the truth of it

So come what may

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:25 am

I'm within 10 posts of Titus now though

get hyped

Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:02 am

Guys we have a fucking hour and I'm probably gonna be in the car at deadline

Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:04 am

No plurality lynch either

Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:06 am

wouldn't be a hammer if you did

VOTE: ms

now it would

Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:07 am

if this flips town I am disappointed in literally everyone

Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:21 am

In post 5481, My Milked Eek wrote:I think I know what your claim is going to be.

Do you want to wait for feu or should I explain the situation?

We're going to have feu claim.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:30 am

any hoods have two objectives done?

Also anyone voting outside my hood till this is over is claiming scum. we're not having repeats of every other day.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:45 am

I can corroborate the first part of this. The Majiffy predict was crumbed very blatantly N1 (I picked up on it N1 and didn't wanna go 'hey guys he's claiming vig let's do that') but it came out D2 in the wake of AP's claim.

I didn't see scum telegraphing their kill in hood because they'd eventually have to answer for it. It's pretty much the entire reason I went after AP D2. We've been stalling on Feu since because we wanted to see what happened N3 with him after his claim. He claimed he can only kill the person his vote ended on.

If Feu's scum he's gotta be red with metal, and they fabricated the red killed nero thing to throw me off. In this scenario, blue killed nero, red killed majiffy.

Back to you toog.

(I want the global killstop today)

Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:46 am

Sensor is more dubious. My hood could be potentially compromised at this point (i.e. it's possible I am the only town player left in it)

Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:31 am

Oh:

ETL had a "Cloud 9 went nowhere" result for N2.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:47 am

Also I posted this in the neighborhood, but my hypothesis for the setup for the hoods is:

3 Town

,

1 Red

,

1 Blue

3 Town

,

1 Red

,

1 Blue

4 Town

,

1 Red

4 Town

,

1 Blue

I really think this is the most likely split we're going to see here. It's symmetrical which is easier to balance than anything asymmetrical.

Other, less elegant (but still symmetrical) options are:

3 Town

,

1 Red

,

1 Blue

3 Town

,

1 Red

,

1 Blue

3 Town

,

1 Red

,

1 Blue

5 Town

or

3 Town

,

2 Red

3 Town

,

2 Blue

4 Town

,

1 Red

4 Town

,

1 Blue

These both seem aesthetically clunkier than the first (although I think the second option is more likely than the third, now that I think about it)

Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:03 am

In post 5493, Feu et Vol wrote:Bork no longer wishes to use our thread. Also why the hell did you just tell the whole thread and all the scum who I can kill? I know one team knows already but the other didn't. If there is only one town person in my hood it is me. Bork, I can't even fathom why you just outed my limitation.

Why the fuck wouldn't I at this point? If you're worried about eek/me being scum then you should suspect scum already know about it anyway.

I suspect the ratio of town to scum is higher outside the hood than it is inside the hood.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:04 am

Giving ton as much info as possible is much more important to me at this point than keeping anything about your alleged shot a secret

Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:04 am

town*

Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:05 am

In post 5493, Feu et Vol wrote:I know one team knows already but the other didn't.

And....how exactly would you know that?

Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:06 am

In post 5497, My Milked Eek wrote:Stop showing stuff from our hood before Toog told us what he knows.

Fair enough.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:09 am

Pre-night 3 I was willing to keep you a secret.

I am no longer willing to do that.

This isn't that complicated.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:09 am

In post 5500, Feu et Vol wrote:I know because my kill didn't go through and the only reason for that would be for the scum to know who I was shooting.

Yes, but how would you know there's only ONE scum team represented there between me/eek?

Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:11 am

I'm not divulging anything that is going to change what Toog says if he's scum. Feu already claimed who he says he visited.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:15 am

In post 5493, Feu et Vol wrote:Bork no longer wishes to use our thread. Also why the hell did you just tell the whole thread and all the scum who I can kill? I know one team knows already but the other didn't.
If there is only one town person in my hood it is me.
Bork, I can't even fathom why you just outed my limitation.

Like let me get this straight.

You thought there was one scum in the hood (eek).

However, I outed your limitation to the thread and now you think there are two (me/eek)

Because I gave...the other...scumteam...that you think..I am on...info...via the main...thread........

Oh right that's stupid.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:17 am

There will be spilling.

There is fucking zero town motivation to keep anything about that role hidden after all this is said and done. If it checks out then that's going to be determined via putting together ALL of the pieces about it.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:56 am

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:01 am

I am just really fucking miffed that there is a possibility that neither of you is lying.

Just like yesterday.

I have no fucking idea why the hell you'd try to redirect a vig N1. That's fucking horrible.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:02 am

In post 5513, Toogeloo wrote:During Night 3, we had a claim of someone blocking Feu from action on Night 2,

What is this

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:03 am

Especially directing someone AWAY from a beloved princess claim

Like even if he's town that slot is negative utility like hell

I don't believe town you would do that

Just like I don't believe town you would fuck up the objectives D1.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:08 am

In post 5521, Toogeloo wrote:PEDIT: Snow reads town to me, and I felt that him being shot on Night 1 would have been rushed. PV and I were in agreement about Snow being town, and were both hoping that he wouldn't be shot.

Who the fuck cares?

If I'm town I'm pointing that at a scumread and redirecting to another scumread every night ad infinitum.

It would not even have occurred to me to target a vig read with that

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:09 am

In post 5522, My Milked Eek wrote:So, 2 JK in one game?

...also this.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:13 am

In post 5527, Toogeloo wrote:And you actually believe a weaker version of AP's already flipped role exists?

I don't know.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:22 am

Here's the thing about Feu being red scum who killed majiffy and got JKed N2:

Why is he making that kill over metal sonic who is a ninja and can't be tracked/watched?

He isn't.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:29 am

I can't get over that toog was willing to blow that power on a vig read who he thought was going to shoot a fucking beloved princess (cause that would've been just awwwwwwful)

Cause if he doesn't it functions like a half-cop later on (granted one that can only definitively get guilties)
AND directs a kill away from likely town.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:32 am

Well well well

The plot thickens.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:32 am

PV you are a fucking boss

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:33 am

I think we gotta go with feu today considering that evidence

But Toog's claim is giving me some major 'what the christ' moments

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:34 am

I'm about to go into herding cats mode again. Please listen to me to optimize objectives. Gotta do some stuff for work first.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:36 am

current hypothesis is that Toog and Feu are on the same (red) team, Feu killed ETL last night and did some other thing to Venmar and Toog is full of shit on his claim.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:37 am

*shrug*

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:38 am

Eek could be blue but Feu probably did this with the thought that I'd go after Eek after ETL died.

p-edit: no he fucking doesn't.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:42 am

Unless that Majiffy pick was a fluke, they're red.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:44 am

I want kill stop and detective then.

Need the following on the wagon:

C9
Rogue
BBMolla
Toog (already on, someone else from this hood can hammer)
Skot
Ika

Failure to comply is a scum claim.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:48 am

Also scum if you could start cross killing that would be fucking incredible

Especially you, feu's team

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:49 am

AP I am really sorry if you're reading this. I got fucking snowed.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:55 am

Don't think lynch will happen in the next 15

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:57 am

Despite the fact that he visited two targets last night after claiming vig?

...really?

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:57 am

^ was to Venmar

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:06 am

Not opposed to it.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:11 am

In post 5534, SnowStorm wrote:WTF Toog?!

I got a result from someone else's role last night:

Feu visited ETL and Venmar.

The ETL part makes sense given his and Toog's claim, but he said nothing about targeting Venmar, and Venny's still alive... Feu?

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:15 am

In post 5573, Venmar wrote:Hmm, that's weird. Guessing someone is an amnesiac and their result got to ETL?

I wasn't paying attention, do people with roles in this game have the ability to target more than one person? MS claimed something like that.

Yes, PV flipped Amnesiac Tracker.

Feu claimed odd-night 'limited' vig and that he attempted to target BBMolla last night. Clearly this is not the case.

We're getting outcast/gen X objectives tonight, so no need for you to be on the wagon.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:16 am

At least one scum team knows this already, but:

I'm Jubilee, VT.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:20 am

Honestly, scum probably knows a lot more about everyone's role than we think right now due to claiming in hoods / softclaim bleed in hoods

I don't think this is going to give scum very much info and it's going to give town a decent amount.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:21 am

In post 5583, Rogue wrote:
In post 5573, Venmar wrote:Hmm, that's weird. Guessing someone is an amnesiac and their result got to ETL?

I wasn't paying attention, do people with roles in this game have the ability to target more than one person? MS claimed something like that.

....

'....' is my sentiment here as well but Herding Cats Time right now.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:29 am

In post 5588, Venmar wrote:Sorry, i'm just not in a trusting mood anymore with you Bork.

If you can't tell my alignment this game you're just not doing it right

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:30 am

In post 5595, Rogue wrote:I actually want to lynch toog at the moment is that bad of me?

~R

Also for claiming I forgot who the fuck we are, but we are a VT

Not today. We have a straight up contradiction from Feu.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:36 am

In post 5599, Rogue wrote:Well

I'm not liking what I just figured out.

He could have optimized his role to benefit the hood in objs but chose not too.
I mean seriously how the fuck is that town??

~R

I don't like toog either.

But do you think Feu is going to flip anything except scum right now?

If not, please consent to my plan.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:37 am

Did he call out me as his jail target before he did it?

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:39 am

Mala

Feu was tracked visiting two targets last night.

He did not claim a thing that can do that

This is open and shut as far as I'm concerned.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:40 am

Molla needs to start using that Jail offensively. No strongman in play.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:44 am

I'm not

I think Toog and Feu were gambiting and snow's result threw their whole plan into disarray.

Gunsmith is seriously like the only thing Toog could have claimed that made Feu's role ambiguous, and the redirect explains why ETL is dead too.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:45 am

In post 5614, borkjerfkin wrote:made Feu's alignment ambiguous

what I meant to say

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:51 am

You were tracked to two targets.

One of which is venmar who is not involved in anything you either claimed to visit or toog claimed he redirected you to

herpity derpity derp

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:53 am

Scum is allowed to use ancillary PR and kill in the same night in this game too. This is good to know as it cannot be used to clear a person (e.g. I am a fruit vendor and gave fruit last night ergo I did not make a kill does not apply this game)

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:54 am

ika please vote feu.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:54 am

In post 5620, ika wrote:isnt reidecting roels consider basterdized?

Not officially, no.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:55 am

Still need:

SKOT (not hammer)
Rogue
BBMolla

Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:57 am

If we can leave him at L-2 until we can be sure both BBMolla and Rogue are around that would be swell.

p-edit: nope

Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:04 am

*salutes*

cheerio

Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:08 am

If you magically flip town we'll lynch snowstorm.

get your vote off yourself.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:13 am

Only one more hood to fuck up objective #5 for, you can do it!

Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:17 am

I'm not letting you derail this day.

We have one confirmed scum between Snowstorm and you. He claims he tracked you to two targets (via PV). You claim you didn't visit either of them.

There is no role that has ever existed that is going to turn your "I visited BBMolla" claim into "Result: Feu visited ETL and Venmar". Not even what Toog claimed.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:20 am

In post 5640, Feu et Vol wrote:>redirector

That would change a result, perhaps, yes.

Feu wrote:>a role that adds a result

...yeah. Wouldn't that just be something.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:23 am

Toog scum is not mutually exclusive with you-scum. Toog is ancillary to this discussion.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:25 am

In post 5642, Feu et Vol wrote:I'm a bit irked that you're choosing us first in light of that.

Occam's razor.

There is no 'result adding role' in the game. I've never even heard of such a thing. Nothing even remotely non-normal has flipped.

Either:
Snow is lying
You are lying

that's pretty much it.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:28 am

In post 5645, Feu et Vol wrote:Pedit: and I'm an odd night limited vig. tell me how that's normal.

Considering I don't believe you are in fact that, *shrug*

Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:44 am

You inherited a list of his prior targets?

Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:49 am

Weird. I've never heard of that happening for backups.

If Feu submitted a kill on N2 I would actually expect him to be Blue, not Red, since MS should be submitting Red kills at that point.

But that goes back to how he knew Jiffy would die then

Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:54 am

At this point I don't know.

All I know is that you were tracked to two actions, and the only common trope of that is a mafioso allowed to submit a factional kill and his own personal ability in the same night.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:56 am

There was also no third kill last night either, so for this to be legit it would have either 1) had to have collided on ETL/PV or 2) been on me since I was protected.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:59 am

I don't see scum-snow giving up his beloved princess 'better think before you lynch me' arrangement just to get caught in a demonstrable lie.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:00 am

In post 5670, Feu et Vol wrote:What proof do you have of this?

What am I supposed to be proving?

Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:07 am

In post 5675, Feu et Vol wrote:FeuVig killed ETL (confirmed because Toog redirected to obvtown, meaning Toog is scum)

YOU YOURSELF was saying there was a scum between ETL/Eek in the hood and you didn't know which it was

Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:15 am

In post 5684, Cloud Nine wrote:(Redirector)

(Feu hasn't claimed redirector)

((but yes you're right))

Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:43 am

In post 5696, Desperado wrote:No.

Ok something is fucked

Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:44 am

In post 5697, Venmar wrote:
In post 5596, borkjerfkin wrote:
In post 5588, Venmar wrote:Sorry, i'm just not in a trusting mood anymore with you Bork.

If you can't tell my alignment this game you're just not doing it right

Boohoo

When did you turn into such a dick?

Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:50 am

Unless we have a two man team out there I am really unsure of what is going on now

Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:55 am

Ok the "killed and performed other action" thing is (probably) off the table

Other options:

1) Feu is some other scum role that targets two people.
2) Someone redirected/bus drove PV's track off of Feu onto someone else.

I don't know how any of this fits with Toog's claim

Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:58 am

Don't understand the ETL/Venmar targets then

Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:59 am

If Feu flips bus driver Toog is autoscum

Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:00 am

Occam's razor still leaves me with 'Feu did not make the action he said he did'

Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:02 am

I have no idea

That is by far the weirdest part of this whole thing

Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:09 am

How do you best explain snowstorm's track, then?

Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:14 am

You two are pretty much the only ones I wanna consider right now.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:41 am

In post 5718, Venmar wrote:Not hailing you as the epitome of town makes me a dick?

I feel like you're being unnecessarily hostile toward me

Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:44 am

In post 5721, Rogue wrote:
In post 5719, My Milked Eek wrote:
In post 5681, Feu et Vol wrote:Pedit I myself said I had a townread on ETL and with her I was leaning toward no scum in the hood, reread. Some of that was marred by paranoia but if we said that I'm pretty sure Beast is the only one who's been seriously scumreading ETL.

Lies.

Page 54 of our hood thread.

lol

we're on page like 13

Yeah I have 448 posts in the hood

Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:55 am

ns how are you feeling in general about people today?

Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:04 am

In post 5718, Venmar wrote:Not hailing you as the epitome of town makes me a dick?

I'm going to try a different (nicer!) approach:

If you have a problem with my play, I would like to know what it is.
If you think I'm scum, I would want to know why.
If you think I'm detracting from the gamestate in some other way, I would like to know that too.

I am not a mind reader. Basically all I got from your attitude toward me is "I'm going to ignore what you ask me to do / say about people" for reasons that you don't feel like giving.

Say you're me: how do

you

initially react to that besides to flippantly dismiss you (which is essentially what I did)?

Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:18 am

In post 5726, Rogue wrote:You're going in teh 'why is he still alive' category, which I know is bullshit but it still bugs me

Considering how often I end up on night kill vote lists, I'm not terribly surprised I'm alive.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:20 am

In post 5726, Rogue wrote:I wasn't liking feu for ~reasons~

I think we're kinda past ~reasons~ aren't we?

Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:22 am

In post 5728, Rogue wrote:Bork

I'm pretty sure in every game we've been in together recently you die N1 when you're town

*cough Innocent Child cough*
I get taken to LyLO fairly often when I'm town.

But alas I have no defense of why I'm alive right now this game considering I have absolutely no control over the circumstances that have led to that.

p-edit: oh. different connotation than what I'm used to.

Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:25 am

I died N1 in 346, yeah. I don't recall playing any other ffery games.

Anyway I have no idea what you're expecting me to say to this. Yes I am indeed alive!

Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:28 am

molla blocked me N3
molla had no N1 block as was not yet a JK; nero blocked molla.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:05 am

Thank you for explaining (even if I don't agree with you about my play being anything but super obvtown but that's an ego thing for me and I'm going drop it). I don't want to ignore you - I want to know what you're thinking and why you're thinking it, as I have a townread on you and have had such read pretty much the whole game. I think it's pretty much impossible for you to be red scum as I explained yesterday and blue scum has already flipped in your hood.

I believe snowstorm indeed is the recipient of the track; he's taking a huge risk by claiming it if he isn't.
It's possible he's lying about what he saw, but honestly the thing he claimed [Feu visited two targets] is unnecessarily risky imo for someone who was possibly going to have momentum against him today anyway. I think it is incredibly likely he is telling the truth.

Bus driver Feu could have switched you and ETL and had his scumbuddy shoot at you - this would hit ETL and direct any protection going toward her at you instead, pretty much guaranteeing her death. That's the only conceivable reason I can think of for a bus driver targeting one of the targets as a kill target.

Otherwise, the things about Feu that don't add up to me:

Counterclaim in AP
There has never been any occurrence of deaths in a night that cannot be adequately explained by Blue + Red + AP.
The track.
The fact that I am town and there are zero scum flips in my hood so far in a game that can't have more than two in any hood.

Feu's crumb was good and it's been the only thing holding me back so far (it's also why I went after AP so hard on D2)
but there are so many mitigating factors as to something shady going on w/ Feu that it's irresponsible not to lynch him (at least eventually)

p-edit: N1: ika received "AP went to Mac n Cheese"
N2: ETL received "cloud 9 went nowhere"
N3: SnowStorm received "Feu visited ETL and Venmar"

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:05 am

In post 5755, BBmolla wrote:UNVOTE:
VOTE: Snowstorm

Interesting. Explain the change of heart?

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:08 am

Add in the fact that being wrong about snowstorm today has double penalties and I'm really really reluctant to test the possibility of a lie in this way.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:10 am

Why can't he be a busdriver who switched ETL and Venmar?

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:12 am

Venmar the other tracks are in my post to you

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:13 am

In post 5769, BBmolla wrote:Venmar you have 2 scum, 2 leaning scum, 3 nulls, and 4 town

You're basically claiming scum with that list

This makes no sense to me

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:14 am

In post 5770, BBmolla wrote:What if snowstorm is a scum beloved princess

I have never heard of such a thing, but *shrug*

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:18 am

In post 5774, My Milked Eek wrote:bork, feu isn't scum. It's actually impossible if you think about the nightkills of night 1. The only scenario they could be scum is if they nightkilled their own strongman (if blue scum) to gain some town points in a hood and I don't see that happening.

Or metal sonic was deliberately lying about their targeting nero
I mean blue scum wasn't going to CC them on that.

Otherwise you can go ahead and explain to me what the dual track means

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:19 am

And Metal Sonic didn't claim that until he knew who AP targeted.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:19 am

In post 5776, Venmar wrote:Or, hint, they're lying!

I get your position on this and that's definitely possible!
But I don't know that eek is arguing that.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:20 am

Er maybe you were agreeing with me. I'm not sure what context that was supposed to be in.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:23 am

In post 5780, My Milked Eek wrote:ULF claimed the "horsemen" killed nero. If that was a blue nightkill he pretty much would have outed himself as scum to the blue team.

He may have to get AP lynched. That's not a huge risk early game; scum aren't going to cull the other team unless they're desperate.

Also it's Metal Sonic.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:26 am

Besides, if Feu is red scum, and Metal testifies that Nero was killed by Red, that pretty much exonerates Feu. There's motivation to do it.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:28 am

Eek,

I will admit if Feu was not tracked to two targets I'd not be arguing as vehemently for this as I am

But not everything adds up here and you're dismissing this huge smoking gun that we have (or can catch snowstorm lying about) unless we have like a billion redirecting roles

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:29 am

In post 5794, My Milked Eek wrote:
In post 5791, borkjerfkin wrote:Besides, if Feu is red scum, and Metal testifies that Nero was killed by Red, that pretty much exonerates Feu. There's motivation to do it.

Who killed majiffy?

I think red killed him and metal lied.
blue killed nero.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:30 am

In post 5756, borkjerfkin wrote:Otherwise, the things about Feu that don't add up to me:

Counterclaim in AP
There has never been any occurrence of deaths in a night that cannot be adequately explained by Blue + Red + AP.
The track.
The fact that I am town and there are zero scum flips in my hood so far in a game that can't have more than two in any hood.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:33 am

I'm not letting you derail this shit onto Venmar who is trying to reconcile his prior reads with night action evidence

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:36 am

So you want to ignore all the shit we've got going on between Feu/SS/Toog in lieu of someone you're gut scumreading because they have wishy-washy reads?

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:37 am

Eek do you think one of Feu/SS is scum?

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:38 am

By "ignore" i mean "not lynch in that group"

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:40 am

Explain how it's a false dichotomy, in your opinion.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:53 am

*looks at page*

*looks at mostly my avatar*

what

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:00 am

Did you not see the part where I posited that Feu himself could be a role that naturally visits two people (such as the one Toog has claimed HE is?)

I mean yes I can just ignore evidence I get in favor of things I am relying on inductive reasoning or supposition to know (such as the metal sonic -> nero thing), but that would be fucking irresponsible?

If you assume tampering, you end up in a sea of fucking weirdness:

Toog claimed a redirect on Feu (from BBmolla to ETL) but we have Feu tracked to two people, so it wasn't natively what Toog claimed he did.

Otherwise you have to assume that PV's track result got redirected from Feu to the person that actually did visit both ETL and Venmar (which is either a lying Toogeloo or we have multiple roles that target two people) and then you have to wonder what THAT person was doing visiting ETL and Venmar.

So how do you think it went down? Honestly?

The track fucking far outweighs anything I've argued to this point where I have to assume I was just

fucking wrong

before.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:05 am

Eek, I'm not going back and forth with you on this. My thought process is pretty transparent and I think everything you're arguing is strictly less likely than everything I'm arguing.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:24 am

That's another thing, if Feu flips a role like bus driver, Toog is quicklynched next day.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:25 am

I'm trying to figure out where eek fits into this.

He's SO SURE that the most likely outcome (track is legit) just didn't happen.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:27 am

Something nonstandard. Nothing that I can think of off the top of my head.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:28 am

And no I don't think you're scum together.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:31 am

Eek I think it's pretty clear I don't know what you are.

No fucking idea how occam's razor comes into it though

p-edit: what the fuck does that have to do with the current situation and why is the onus on me to remark on it?

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:33 am

He straight up said he did.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:34 am

In post 5513, Toogeloo wrote:I am X-Man, 1-Shot Redirecting Gunsmith. I can use my power each night, but as soon as it's successful, I lose it. Each Night, I choose two targets, the second of which cannot be in my hood. If the first target has a gun and is performing a killing action that evening, I will redirect their shot to the second target.

Night 1, I tried redirecting bork to Nero. I was getting vig vibes from bork, and I didn't want him to shoot Snow, so I redirected him to Nero because I thought Nero was scum. Action didn't go through.

Night 2, I tried redirecting Rogue to ETL. Rogue made some comments I thought were kind of sketchy about how they hadn't been voted yet and that they should be the ones getting night killed because they were more town than any one else. After ETL's attempted derail of the AP lynch, I thought maybe they were doing it to earn town credit. They weren't a very vocal player slot prior to that and I never developed a strong read one way or another on the slot in general, so I thought they'd be a target for redirect. Action didn't go through again.

During Night 3, we had a claim of someone blocking Feu from action on Night 2, which got my wheels turning that him being blocked stopped one of the Night 2 Night kills. I told this person to WIFOM his JK hoping that whatever scum in my hood might relay that to Feu in order to convince him it might be worth shooting again. I targeted Feu, and once again redirected it to ETL. I got a successful result.

I'm fairly confident in the combination of Feu being blocked on Night 2 stopping the kill, and his claim now being a weaker version of AP and me just so happening to redirect a limited vig, that he is scum.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:35 am

What the fuck are you talking about?

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:35 am

Why can't he be a bus driver and toog be lying (everything about toog's claim fucking sucks balls)

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:36 am

Then he's STILL lying because he said he targeted BBMolla

(Also no, I don't think that would show both)

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:38 am

Because SKOT hasn't logged on

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:39 am

In post 5875, My Milked Eek wrote:Why would a bus driver claim vig? And how would he follow through on it (jiffy)?

If he's scum he has a team.

I will freely admit that the vig claim is the part of this that makes the least sense. I have said this many times.

But you're acting like he's confirmed town when there's a ton of shit about him that looks really fucking bad right now.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:39 am

In post 5876, borkjerfkin wrote:Because SKOT hasn't logged on

was to Rogue

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:41 am

Like in order for your scenario to make sense, Eek, there needs to be some unflipped two target role that someone has or one of the other claims is lying

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:41 am

AND someone needs to have redirected PV to that yet unnamed two target role

How fucking likely is this

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:42 am

that IS THE THING that would have happened to the tracking result

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:43 am

as in tracker got redirected TO THAT PERSON

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:45 am

Actually I was incredibly biased toward you early game.

And other things have reversed that feeling.

So it's pretty much not like that in the least.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:47 am

I'm not fucking budging on this

The first thing that happens when you see a cop guilty (which is essentially what this is) is not to fucking go 'there's probably a fucking framer'. You lynch the guilty or the cop.

unless you're in NY 161, where that's what my scumteam fed to the town

and guess what

there was no fucking framer

(hi AP)

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:49 am

He claimed in a really convincing way and possibly hoped that either he wouldn't have to deal w/ a vig or would be able to out maneuver him with the crumb and ride the towncred

Feu red synergizes with Metal's claim. Feu blue doesn't.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:53 am

I am not going to convince you that you are scum

Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:01 am

In post 5895, Feu et Vol wrote:bork you're incredibly frustrating because I'm pretty sure nothing I or anyone can say is going to change your mind.

You know what? If I'm wrong, I'll fucking eat my potatoes endgame where muffin and AP can laugh at how fucking bad I am ad infinitum. The 'weird result' is tantamount to a cop claiming a guilty and because it's just a track this is getting shrugged off.

I'm going to feel worse if I let someone I think is scum slip by because they talked themselves out of it.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:04 am

In post 5897, Feu et Vol wrote:if you and certain other people could take the "OMG WEIRD RESULT" blinders off that would be fucking fantastic and maybe we could actually get around to lynching real scum, i.e. toog who has done absolutely nothing town this whole game yet we gave him a pass up until now when it's all "OMG SAVIOR <3".

If it comes down to it, I'd probably compromise on Toog as a last resort because I think HIS claim is bunk too.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:25 pm

On phone, but how is "adjusting my read on feu instead of inventing reasons I can't begin to prove for why feu was tracked to two targets" anything but utterly rational?

you've gotten the gist of what went on in the hood, but glossed over shit like how 90% of my posts were about scumhunting other people and how I repeatedly said how unsure I was of my hood members. Like I even said there was an outside shot at feu red. I remember this vividly. I sure as fuck didn't say scum HAD to be in you or etl. Feu said that.

Your argument about my failure to mention your spat is the worst burden if proficiency argument I've ever heard. you two engaged in a pissing match. I am not pushing you today; in fact, feu's flip is going to influence my read on you considerably (due to the setup). Either way, pushing ny failure to bring it up immediately when it isn't all that relevant to today and failute to even scratch at how that betrays motivation of any kind is dishonest as fuck.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:36 pm

In post 5557, My Milked Eek wrote:So that's why feu asked not to policy lynch ulf before the game. I knew it!

Like holy shit dude
This is you upon initial reaction to the track.

Then you hard 180 and refuse to budge after a cursory analysis because feu just couldn't have fakeclaimed and lied with his team.

Paranoia about him I get. I still have a little because the claim was well executed (the evidence against him is fucking damning though) But you aren't showing any. You are barely acknowledging that it is incredibly likely he was legitimately tracked to two targets.

Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:08 pm

In post 5556, borkjerfkin wrote:I want kill stop and detective then.

Need the following on the wagon:

C9
Rogue
BBMolla
Toog (already on, someone else from this hood can hammer)
Skot
Ika

Failure to comply is a scum claim.

Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:01 am

for fuck's sake eek.

I will again outline all the possibilities as I see them, because apparently this shit doesn't get through to people.

Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:18 am

Descending order of likelihood for me:

Scenario #1: Feu is lying, Toog is lying, and Feu is a role that visited two targets, killing neither of them

Hey guess what: Eek's assertion that we 'know for a fact Feu shot someone' is not a fact at all. You know when it becomes fact? When Toog flips town. Feu could have visited two targets (not killing either of them) and if Feu is a bus driver (one of the most common two target roles AND one that would have a reason to visit ETL) someone on his team could have shot at Venmar, killing ETL and circumventing any possible protection on ETL. If Feu flips scum, Toog is demonstrably lying. None of this is remotely improbable. There are a ways Toog could have known what Feu was doing in advance - if there are two scum in my hood, and Toog is also scum, he knew about Feu's claim already, whether he was scum with or against Feu. It's wonderfully convenient this just happened on the night Feu had planned to shoot again.

Not to mention without the track, Toog and Feu's stuff is internally consistent and doesn't require anyone to necessarily be lying. This track threw a wrench into a plan.

Scenario #2: Snowstorm is lying

Nuff said here pretty much - Feu didn't visit two targets. Toog could be either alignment here. I do believe snowstorm got the track result as no one has CCed PV giving it to them (could have gone to ETL but that's a huge risk for scum to take), but it's feasible he could have made up what was in it (although thinking of two targets would not be my first inclination as scum)

Scenario #3: Someone fucked around with PV's track result, sending it to someone who did visit two people (that isn't toog)

This is, as I said, essentially equivalent to ignoring a cop guilty because 'there might be a framer'. It COULD have happened, yes. I don't see it as even close to the most likely outcome. Said person would have to know 1) PV was a tracker and 2) who he was tracking in order to make this really work. Top that with a claimed redirector that, while targeting Feu, doesn't explain the track result and now you have to posit that there is another redirector-esque role that SS got the track result from. I have asked Eek many times how he thinks this likely happened and he has yet to answer me.

Scenario #4: There is some fucking magical role that has never been seen before that can fuck with Feu to turn a visit on one person into a visit on two people

I'm not even fucking considering this, and anyone who is is trying to sell you something.

As far as Eek's 'bork obv is ignoring his 14v3v3 thing', well, no I'm fucking not. That's what I think the distribution is. I don't think Feu is a mafioso who killed and performed an ancillary action - Desp shot that down.

Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:26 am

V/LA starting tonight at 4PM CDT until late Sunday night.

Will have my phone but will not be in any position to post, probably.

Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:12 am

I'm done man. You're clearly attempting to spin this into a smear campaign on me, whereas I am sticking to the facts, and I'm not going to be baited anymore.

Enjoy the spin zone.

Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:20 am

In post 5927, My Milked Eek wrote:How is that a smear campaign? Did I tell a lie about what happened in the hood thread?

What is your N2 transcription trying to do exactly?

The unseen dot you want people to connect is 'I killed S4TD because I secret thought you might be right about their being a vig and your 4 vig theory was legitimate' when I straight up said I did not think that was true (but admitted I knew who you were talking about at the time, because I did, I just thought you were wrong.)

So what motivation are you attributing to me here?

Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:21 am

And I don't have anything to say to #5923. #5921 is my final stance on the likelihood of all the potential things that happened last night and arguing more would be repeating myself.

Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:47 am

If Feu somehow flips town we can 1v1 tomorrow to your heart's content. I refuse to believe there isn't scum in our hood at this point.

But I don't really know how to argue against your complete fucking speculative points other than saying 'actually I didn't do that thing'.

Yet the responsible thing for you to do would be to realize that I never fucking bought ETL's 4-vig thing because it was fucking silly and I mentioned that every time it was brought up, and realize it's pretty fucking likely I'm telling the truth. Which I am. But hey, spin a hypothetical with no basis in reality instead.

And oh look it's more 'things you have decided I have a responsibility to do'

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:16 am

One of Venmar and Snowstorm is scum unless Red has two in a single hood.

Any townread I had on Venmar was obliterated by the terrible way he handled the hammer yesterday.

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:16 am

Like what the fuck were you doing on that wagon when I specifically delineated who I wanted on it quite a few times

And I know you read it.

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:17 am

Toog's I think gotta be scum too.

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:22 am

Has to be 1 scum in Toog/Snowstorm since Toog's redirect doesn't match up with Snowstorm's track result

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:26 am

I am curious where kill 2 went

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:27 am

And getting the sensor is a bad idea unless you're 100% fucking sure you can keep me alive tonight

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:31 am

At this point I want the kill stop if possible since it's impossible for scum to do anything shady with that except 'not use it' and anything else is secondary.

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:38 am

Yes I'm obviously scummy for wanting to get the objectives when we had a surefire scum lynch in the wings

That sure adds the fuck up

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:42 am

You didn't 'get him lynched'. He was at L-2 with tons of day time left and you were like 'o i guess i'll vote if I haaaaave too'

Whatever my 'dick measuring' with eek was, there was a zero percent chance I was abandoning Feu.

We were waiting for BBMolla and Rogue and you KNEW that.

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:44 am

In post 5751, Venmar wrote:Like you said and acknowledged, you don't need my vote for the Feu lynch, so go me disagreeing with you shouldn't be a huge problem, so go ahead and ignore me if you want.

Here's the part where you knew that.

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:44 am

In post 5890, borkjerfkin wrote:I'm not fucking budging on this

The first thing that happens when you see a cop guilty (which is essentially what this is) is not to fucking go 'there's probably a fucking framer'. You lynch the guilty or the cop.

unless you're in NY 161, where that's what my scumteam fed to the town

and guess what

there was no fucking framer

(hi AP)

Meanwhile I'm posting stuff like this
But yeah I'm gonna abandon the Feu wagon. That was likely to happen.

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:54 am

In post 5971, Venmar wrote:and I would not have been surprised if Borks vendetta to complete an objective on the Feu wagon would have ended with giving Feu and Eek enough time to dismantle the wagon and live. No.

Lol what are you trying to accuse me of here if not 'plotting to get the Feu wagon dismantled' while shouting repeatedly to make sure the exact opposite of that happened.

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:57 am

I'm waiting for Molla's result before I put a vote anywhere

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:58 am

But I probably want Toog dead more than I want you dead.

Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:02 am

Then you think snowstorm is lying about the track?

p-edit: I'm not gonna sink to the ad-hom stuff from either side here. This game is toxic enough.

Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:03 am

I'm really over getting personally offended by an internet game

Maybe I have muffin to thank for that

Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:04 am

And where are people's town hardons for Toog coming from

Cause I seriously have no fucking idea. Even ETL thought he was town.

Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:08 am

In post 5997, Venmar wrote:Meh, I don't get personally offended, it's a shame Nat did. Truth hurts.

Also, what track from Snowstorm? Only one I know if the Feu track.

That's the one - he tracked Feu to ETL AND You.
Desp confirmed scum can't kill and use a second action in the same night unless he is the last scum. I don't think he is (otherwise you have a team of two in here and that's kinda weird given the setup)

So Feu very likely did not actually perform a killing action.
Toog's role only works on people performing a killing action.

This is a problem.

Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:12 am

Desp: hypothetical:

Player A Redirects Player B (who was going to visit player C) to player D instead.

Player E tracks Player B and is not interfered with.

What result does Player E get?

Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:15 am

It's an argument for Toog scum. It has nothing to do with you.