Mini 520 - Triumvirate Mafia - ABANDONED

[Mizzy]

I second this sentiment. I've always found that listmaking has been more helpful for the Mafia than for the town. It helps them decide on who to kill at night (whoever turns up the most townie) and helps them decide who to push to lynch the next day (people towards the top of the list only need a nudge).

I don't think Elmo is scum. I think it was a genuine attempt to get the day to end, but I'm not participating in this arrangement.

Mafia don't always lynch who is "most townie" though. They mostly choose whoever is safest to lynch, so if the person who is "most townie" would also link a scum to them, their death would harm the mafia more than help.

I thought the list was a good idea, and I don't know if it's detrimental because we all make similar lists when we mention how we feel about who. I can see arguments both for and against it, though I'd want to discuss the target we all chose BEFORE a lynch happened. I dislike that SSF voted so quickly.

[Rishi]

I thought the list was a good idea, and I don't know if it's detrimental because we all make similar lists when we mention how we feel about who. I can see arguments both for and against it, though I'd want to discuss the target we all chose BEFORE a lynch happened. I dislike that SSF voted so quickly.

As you said, there are arguments for and against it. I think it can be helpful in a smaller game, or on a later day, but on Day 1 with twelve players? It's just rampant speculation.

I think it's a fallacy that pro-town players need to be forthright at all times. Sometimes, it's harmful to let scum know that you're on to them, especially when you think someone is scum, but don't have enough to build a case.

I don't like that SSF voted so quickly, but I've played with him before. This is not unusual behavior for him.

[Mizzy]

As you said, there are arguments for and against it. I think it can be helpful in a smaller game, or on a later day, but on Day 1 with twelve players? It's just rampant speculation.

I think it's a fallacy that pro-town players need to be forthright at all times. Sometimes, it's harmful to let scum know that you're on to them, especially when you think someone is scum, but don't have enough to build a case.

I don't like that SSF voted so quickly, but I've played with him before. This is not unusual behavior for him.

It's a bit of a catch, though, because if a pro-town ISN'T forthright at all times, and someone else finds out, they're as good as dead. So it's an interesting line to walk.

Another reason I was okay with the list idea was that even though scum can find out information from them, so can town. We have a record, for D2 and beyond, of those lists.

In other news, I'm not up for an MoS lynch and would much, much rather find a scummier target. I'm going to attempt to re-read some things, but I'll be honest in that my attention span is not what it should be and it might not be an easy thing for me to do.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

[TrustGossip]

Basic reasons for FOS:

Miztef: Originiator of the "let's generate lists" idea. It's another example of over-providing information, and it's also in a manner that isn't particularly helpful to town. Sure we have a bunch of suspicion lists, but I'd rather we go the traditional route and present reasons why we find someone suspicious and so forth. Since we have gone through two failed "global action" schemes before (the No-Lynch Period and the Massclaim Epoch), I would think someone would have more sense than to rely on something like this to jumpstart discussion.

Mizzy: Very uncomfortable with some of your low content posts. There are far too many that state in no uncertain terms that this game is "really hard" and this is justification of why you are unable to scumhunt properly or so forth. "The game is hard" is an illusion. I realize this setup is unconventional but that should not be a mental block against the basic way to play the game, which is to find scum and destroy them.

Somestrangeflea: Do not understand your accusations against Elmo at all. His two paragraphs had good points and I felt that they corresponded with his genuine feelings upon the situation at hand. Then there is your anxiety to finish Day One because it's running longer than you would like. There is also the matter of your vote against MoS supported by a sense of consensus logic "I'm going to vote for him because the general sentiment is that he's scum." That's not helpful, that's just trying to end the day.

Vote: somestrangeflea

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: Very uncomfortable with some of your low content posts. There are far too many that state in no uncertain terms that this game is "really hard" and this is justification of why you are unable to scumhunt properly or so forth. "The game is hard" is an illusion. I realize this setup is unconventional but that should not be a mental block against the basic way to play the game, which is to find scum and destroy them.

Actually, I was yelling at SSF for his whining about the game and mentioned that the game is going to be a difficult one...difficult is not a bad thing. Contrary to your words here, I HAVE done a fair amount of scumhunting, and the difficulty of the game is not what's holding me back but rather a lack of participation by others. You can't scumhunt when no one else is.

The only thing that bothers me about the difficulty of the set-up is the inevitable power claims the scum will make when we do find one, which means we won't be able to lynch them confidently by any stretch of the imagination.

As for the difficulty being an "illusion," it's anything but. What do YOU propose we do if a lynchee screams power role? Kill them anyway and potentially screw the town in more than one way?

Scumhunting is not hard when you have participation...but routing scum in

this

environment is going to be a touchy, scary thing. I'm a cautious player, and I don't do touchy-scary very well.

[TrustGossip]

Well it's kind of simple if you get your head out of the ground.

If they have been put on the lynchee podium for consistent anti-town play/reasonings and counter-intuitive logic, then we lynch them regardless. Overthinking the "what if" scenario and wringing your hands over it is obsfucating the matter at hand.

[Mizzy]

Well it's kind of simple if you get your head out of the ground.

If they have been put on the lynchee podium for consistent anti-town play/reasonings and counter-intuitive logic, then we lynch them regardless. Overthinking the "what if" scenario and wringing your hands over it is obsfucating the matter at hand.

But none of our suspects have THAT much evidence against them. If you take the game as it is now, in the whole, then there isn't much in the way of consistent anti-town play/reasonings and counter-intuitive logic.

Once we get over the lynch hump, I think we'll be okay...a night of power roles going to town (pun semi-intended) would really really help. If..of course...they go to town. Ugh ><

[Miztef]

Basic reasons for FOS:

Miztef: Originiator of the "let's generate lists" idea. It's another example of over-providing information, and it's also in a manner that isn't particularly helpful to town. Sure we have a bunch of suspicion lists, but I'd rather we go the traditional route and present reasons why we find someone suspicious and so forth. Since we have gone through two failed "global action" schemes before (the No-Lynch Period and the Massclaim Epoch), I would think someone would have more sense than to rely on something like this to jumpstart discussion.

Mizzy: Very uncomfortable with some of your low content posts. There are far too many that state in no uncertain terms that this game is "really hard" and this is justification of why you are unable to scumhunt properly or so forth. "The game is hard" is an illusion. I realize this setup is unconventional but that should not be a mental block against the basic way to play the game, which is to find scum and destroy them.

Somestrangeflea: Do not understand your accusations against Elmo at all. His two paragraphs had good points and I felt that they corresponded with his genuine feelings upon the situation at hand. Then there is your anxiety to finish Day One because it's running longer than you would like. There is also the matter of your vote against MoS supported by a sense of consensus logic "I'm going to vote for him because the general sentiment is that he's scum." That's not helpful, that's just trying to end the day.

Vote: somestrangeflea

I'm pretty sure anyone who has played a game with me would realize I try unconventional approaches regularly. I have been lynched on many occasions day 1 because of my adamant way of pushing through days.

To me, 9/10 posts are worthless in the average game, because it is just people squealing about the same stuff said 20 pages ago (I myself do so way too often), so many of my ideas are there to change the way people think about the game and throw off most conventional ways for scum to hide.

This list idea was in order to find out where everyone's position was as to who they wanted to lynch, it doesn't have to correlate with who they find suspicious or townie. This day has long ago gotten to a point where not many feel they can be helpful anymore. Most of these posts are going to be "lost in the void". I would have no problem if everyone finished their lists and we lynched the most wanted lynch (after they had a few words in their defense at least though).

I will also admit I was part of the No lynch movement and Massclaim epoch. They were both interesting ideas in this situation, and although they both turned out to be unfavorable, I don't think the average scum would know exactly how to deal with each situation.

Your whole idea that over providing information is a bad idea is flawed imo, because you seem think Townies must act completely honest at all times. While I agree that LAL is a great ideal, it's use is to stop idiotic pro-town players from acting like scum and throwing off the town. Townies can manipulate information and hide/provide what they want without ever having to lie. even list generating does not stop this ability.

You say "I'd rather go the traditional route"... well, ok, but how does that make me scummy? Because my methods are not traditional?

You say the prior 2 "global action schemes" are failures, as if that's some horrid evidence against me, however, I see it as they generated certain opinions and ideas for use at a later date. Not all ideas are just meant to be "successes" or "failures", they are there to create new obstacles for scum to trip over and to open the minds of players that think the traditional way is the only way, any other way is scum trying to screw the town.

[Cephrir]

I will also admit I was part of the No lynch movement and Massclaim epoch. They were both interesting ideas in this situation, and although they both turned out to be unfavorable, I don't think the average scum would know exactly how to deal with each situation.

Hey, I forgot about that. Also, the rest of you argument after this point is largely irrelevant because you're missing the point. You were important in starting all three movements, all three of which benefit the scum. Every time you post, lately, I want to lynch you more.

Unvote, Vote Miztef

[Miztef]

My point is that none of those things

do

help the scum. Neither of you have shown any evidence that those things did indeed help the scum and/or will help the scum. You just say "oh yea, those are bad things, obvious you are scummy since you did bad things".

Yes, in the end, we decided those actions were more hurtful to the town then the scum, however, after that point was made, I backed out of each in turn. Many other players also found those ideas worthy of looking into, are all those players scummy as well? I see nothing wrong with looking into ideas and plans on how to win this set-up. I don't believe any of us has been in a set-up exactly like it.

Also, imo, I really doubt scum would continually submit plans that benefit scum in hopes that the town will agree and give the scum advantage. In theory it looks like a good plan, but scum are usually smart enough to avoid looking ridiculously scummy.

Most of the plans focus on the desperation to keep triums alive while still being able to hunt scum. Your view seems to be that killing scum is the only point of the game, and trium death is largely irrelevant. You don't try at all to protect the triums, and would rather kill whoever looks scummy by the traditional gameplay.

The massclaim plan, for example, works well in most cases, only if the scum decide on very precise claims do they get the advantage. If I was scum planning this, I would have to desperately hope my scum buddies knew exactly what to claim. There is the added bonus to the town in this case of being able to keep away from the trium lynches as long as they want unless all three scum claimed trium. It is difficult to see all the intricacies of this plan easily, and it took many pages to convince the town it was not a good plan. I was just one of those people who couldn't see the flaws in the plan easily.

The no lynch plan works in much the same manner, protect the trium in order to gain information. Only after all the statistics are rolled out can you realize this isn't the best plan. Actually, there is a good chance this plan would actually work out to the towns advantage as well. Not enough to promote it, but enough that the average townie could be at fault in thinking it's a good plan.

If you are suggesting that I am the "mastermind" behind all these plans, then you must believe I have a good extent of analytical ability in order to figure out that each of these benefit the scum. If I am smart enough to figure out all these, then wouldn't it be reasonable to assume I'm smart enough not to stick my neck out and be caught on each of these? I would also have to be very confident in the ability of my scumbuddies to make the correct choices in the massclaim plan and the "list" plan. (Actually, I still hold that the list plan is a fairly good one at this time, but I realize you do not, and believe it's another scum helping plan)

[somestrangeflea]

Then there is your anxiety to finish Day One because it's running longer than you would like.

Two months ago, Day 1 was running longer than I would like. Now, it's length actually irritates me.

The only thing that bothers me about the difficulty of the set-up is the inevitable power claims the scum will make when we do find one, which means we won't be able to lynch them confidently by any stretch of the imagination.

People have to stop assuming that the run up to a scum lynch will result in:
Lynch-1 => Triumvirate Claim => Instant vote removal.
The point is this. If we want to make progress in this game, we're going to have to take the big risk eventually.

What do YOU propose we do if a lynchee screams power role?

Weigh up the likelihood of the lynchee being scum against the likelihood of him telling the truth, and either lynch them or not according to the results. Simple.

In other words:

Overthinking the "what if" scenario and wringing your hands over it is obsfucating the matter at hand.

this.

There is also the matter of your vote against MoS supported by a sense of consensus logic "I'm going to vote for him because the general sentiment is that he's scum."

No, I'm voting for him because Condorcet results don't generate their own votes. In taking part in the vote, I agreed that I would support the resulting lynch. I call it honour.

[Miztef]

I completely agree with SSF's last line "No, I'm voting for him because Condorcet results don't generate their own votes. In taking part in the vote, I agreed that I would support the resulting lynch. I call it honour. "

We are doing the list voting in order come up with a fair and reasonable lynch. No one wants to "take the plunge" today and risk killing a trium by a hammer. If we abide by the rules of condorcet voting, a fair candidate will be lynched, one that is most agreed upon by the entire town.

I see the problem in my voting MoS, it looks like a plan by scum to start the condorcet voting and then I'm using the opportunity to kill a townie (MoS). However, if you look at it from the townie perspective, I pretty much have to choose MoS (or someone else high on everyone's lists) or else I increase the risk of my own death, which I know cannot help the town.

Trustgossip, your brand new to this game, we've been at it for months upon months, to me at least, and from the looks of it SSF as well, it seems pointless now to continue our bickering. We just want this day to end.

I'm not saying your case against me is terrible, but I doubt I will be lynched soon by regular voting, only because regular voting has failed so many times throughout today as well. Too many people don't want to run this risk of killing a trium on day 1. I think that's a proven fact that's been shown in this game. By doing condorcet voting we can finally move this game along in a fair and organized manner. If I'm lynched from that, so be it. If you really want to, you can just do Miztef>everyone else as your list. Or is that giving away too much information as well?

[TrustGossip]

No, I'm voting for him because Condorcet results don't generate their own votes. In taking part in the vote, I agreed that I would support the resulting lynch. I call it honour.

Condorcet gives the impression of transparency when it really isn't. Say a large majority of people have MoS high on their voting lists. We carry out the "honorable deed" and MoS is strung up and turns up town. How do we carry out the Day 2 review when Condorcet has basically set up a "group headnod"? Voting order is out the window, the hammer is out the window. Where is the foothold for post-lynch analysis?

SSF, I also have honor too. I am not going to submit to the depravity of this Condorcet method.

Major FOS: Miztef

for continuing this charade.

[Mizzy]

Condorcet gives the impression of transparency when it really isn't. Say a large majority of people have MoS high on their voting lists. We carry out the "honorable deed" and MoS is strung up and turns up town. How do we carry out the Day 2 review when Condorcet has basically set up a "group headnod"? Voting order is out the window, the hammer is out the window. Where is the foothold for post-lynch analysis?

Condorcet voting still requires us to vote in the traditional method. You can still get hammers, and quite a bit of development in the order of those votes. You still find out the true alignment of that person, which going back through D1 banter would still give you a fair amount of insight.

Just because any one of us thinks than an idea or method is good or bad does not make the person who had the idea inherently town or scum. It also doesn't reflect on the alignment of anyone who agrees or disagrees with the idea or method. In a nutshell, you thinking Miz had a bad idea is perfectly fine, but that doesn't make him auto-scum and you auto-town. We're all entitled to offer out ideas to further the game, and stifling that just because you happen to think that the ideas were bad isn't helping, either.

I can see where you're coming from, but your cut-and-dry method of "my opinion is right and anyone who disagrees is clearly scum" is too tunnel-visioned. The game is not a series of strict if-then statements.

[TrustGossip]

Also, Rishi, does it really give the scum more information then it does the town?

There is no reason why the town has to be completely honest about their lists.

(I for one, don't actually believe MoS is the scummiest player or even very scummy for that manner, but my list would probably mislead the scum into thinking so).

THEN WHY ARE WE BOTHERING???

emphasis mine.

[TrustGossip]

We are doing the list voting in order come up with a fair and reasonable lynch.

No one wants to "take the plunge" today and risk killing a trium by a hammer.

If we abide by the rules of condorcet voting, a fair candidate will be lynched, one that is most agreed upon by the entire town.

This is the problem I have with Miztef's support of condorcet, Mizzy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So, according to the calculator, using the slips received so far, MoS is getting deaded.

Vote: MoS

I'll move along with the results of the voting if anyone else bothers to vote...

I think you're divesting responsibility by "going along with the majority". I came upon this problem in another game, where people tried to give their votes to other people because they were protown. This falls under the same issue. All this serves is to give people a way to cast votes they are not responsible for. If you vote me and I get lynched, after I come up town you can say you were just going along with the majority and point out that you had me somewhere in the middle of your list. It's a divestment of responsibility, and it looks pretty scummy from here.

FoS: SSF

That's only one of the problems with doing lists like this, though. Doing lists in general isn't really helpful. I think most people can agree that after the first five or so, most of the people are kinda random, and we could go either way on them. The only helpful part of these lists is finding the people you find most scummy and most innocent, which could be accomplished by asking for a top 3 or bottom 3 list. But doing an entire list only serves to help the scum find out which of them is successfully hiding under the radar, and it helps them strategize better by knowing what people think about them. This is a case of too much information.

I'll be honest about mine MoS, I only voted you first because I'm close to being picked and your also close, so even though I'm fairly neutral about you, I decided that it would be better you then me.

If people were really adamant about going after phate or some others, I would have voted that candidate first in an instant.

That's a horrible reason to put me on top. Obviously you think you are protown, so you're at the end of your list. It's assumed that you would vote anyone else in the game over yourself, because you can guarantee your own alignment. You don't have to list me first to emphasize that. You're skewing the results of this already bad exercise by putting me first just to point out that you'd vote me over yourself, which is a given already. It makes it seem like you are only concerned about self-preservation, not about voting based on your actual suspicions.

There is no reason why voting has to be reduced to a "you or me" situation. You're presenting a false dilemma to the town and to yourself by saying that if you're not going to vote yourself, you have to vote me. It doesn't work that way. No one is forcing your opinion. You can vote for whoever you find the scummiest, and that's what you should do. You shouldn't vote for someone else just because you think it'll come down to you or them. The only time you should maybe do that is if you're both at like L-1 and you think they might be scum. If you're worried about being lynched, it's better that you express your own opinions and vote accordingly because maybe, just maybe, people will listen to you and hear what you have to say. Even if they don't, they know they can trust your words more after you've been lynched, so it's best to give your true opinions before you die, not present a false dilemma between yourself and another person, when it's obvious you aren't going to vote yourself anyways.

[TrustGossip]

@ MoS: It must take an awful amount of restraint not to vote Miztef after that post of yours. It was pretty damning...

@ Elmo: I would think most of the condorcet leads on MoS are because of your vote against him. However, I really don't get the case against him, can you please explain it to me?

@ Everyone: Input on the current series of events would obviously be appreciated.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not voting Miztef because I'm not going to create a false dilemma between him and myself. It's bad that he did what he did, but I think he may have inadvertently trapped himself in his own false dilemma. I posted those comments to try and free him from his own trap, not to say that I suspected him for it. I think he may be as much of a victim as anyone else, maybe more. So I don't suspect him just for putting me at the top of his list, especially since he came clean of his own accord and admitted

why

he had me at the top of his list. If he was scum with some sort of agenda to get me killed, he wouldn't have admitted to the false dilemma.

[Mizzy]

We are doing the list voting in order come up with a fair and reasonable lynch.

No one wants to "take the plunge" today and risk killing a trium by a hammer.

If we abide by the rules of condorcet voting, a fair candidate will be lynched, one that is most agreed upon by the entire town.

This is the problem I have with Miztef's support of condorcet, Mizzy.

Yes, I do see.

SSF has been the most questionable in my eyes thus far and this from him really, really gets to me:

No, I'm voting for him because Condorcet results don't generate their own votes. In taking part in the vote, I agreed that I would support the resulting lynch. I call it honour.

Voting for someone before all the vote strings were in, and voting without discussion really bothers me. It also bothers me that he makes his actions out to be honorable. Voting an unconfirmed "winner" without talk first and giving the impression he thought we would all do the same...grr. I don't like it.

MoS has done a couple small scummy things, but in general, he's just quiet. He was on top of my list because I would have felt the least guilt for his lynch...which is not how I should be playing the game. I should vote for who I think is the scummiest.

Vote: somestrangeflea

[TrustGossip]

MoS, I would prefer for Miztef to respond before I fully digest your argument.

[Mastermind of Sin]

yea I've been quiet because I took a break from MS for like 2 weeks, so I didn't post much in any of my games. It's taken me a while to catch up, but I'm going to be V/LA again until Monday.

[Miztef]

alright, so it seems MoS is quite correct in what happened.

There is a problem with the list in that these "false dilemmas" happen. I'm not sure if this happens or not with regular voting, but it has obviously become a large problem here.

@trustgossip: The point of the lists is to choose who to lynch without causing too much trouble. The reason I originally suggested it was because of absolute lack of morale in the game, I felt there was a definite need to progress to day 2 by trying to eliminate the problems we are having in coming up with a consensus.

There is continuing talk about giving scum too much info, but you can choose exactly how much info you'd like to give with your list. So, I don't see it as all that much different then regular play. I didn't choose the lists idea because I thought it would generate loads of great info, I did it in order to swiftly and fairly end the day.

SSF seemed to have a similar impression, although took it too far in voting before all the info was in. I agree with mizzy in that regard. Not sure it constitutes a vote though, as my first impression when I saw mizzy's vote was opportunistic after MoS's suggestion.

[Mizzy]

SSF seemed to have a similar impression, although took it too far in voting before all the info was in. I agree with mizzy in that regard. Not sure it constitutes a vote though, as my first impression when I saw mizzy's vote was opportunistic after MoS's suggestion.

Well, we DO need a lynch, and he IS my #2. I'm trying to be less wishywashy, damn it.

[Rishi]

That's only one of the problems with doing lists like this, though. Doing lists in general isn't really helpful. I think most people can agree that after the first five or so, most of the people are kinda random, and we could go either way on them. The only helpful part of these lists is finding the people you find most scummy and most innocent, which could be accomplished by asking for a top 3 or bottom 3 list. But doing an entire list only serves to help the scum find out which of them is successfully hiding under the radar, and it helps them strategize better by knowing what people think about them. This is a case of too much information.

I agree with most of what MoS says, especially the quoted portion.

This is why I don't support an MoS lynch. Yes, MoS is dangerous if he's scum, but if he's town (which is 75% likely), he's a huge asset to lose.