Mafia 58: Ready Salted - Game over!

[IH]

I'm sorry guys. I haven't reread yet. I won't do a pbp, but I will reread. getting on it now.

[Lowell]

Welcome IH. Help get me out of this mess.

[Lowell]

Eh Twito doesn't feel right either. Back to where I was.

unvote, vote Amb

I want the case against me summed up a little better too. Saying that I "vote hop" isn't much of an accusation. I am, however, a bit ditressed that I seem to have derailed a game otherwise moving in the right direction. Think this trough again, please.

[IH]

I couldn't resist. Amb has just been... so... SCUMMY.

Vote Twito for swearing. THere is no need to use poor language in this game. Twito is lucky I didn't draw a Vig role.

Scumscumscum. How does swearing make Twito scum? It doesn't.

Livingod clearly needs to die. He posted after DoS made the semi-scummy post without saying anything about it, then after Sham notices he votes along.

SCUM

SCUM = VOTE

UNVOTE VOTE: livingod

This is clearly a counterwagon. Livingod was at three. DoS was at 4.

Umm.... I assume that is a claim in humour.... Because that's a suicidal post either way? If you continue to survive in this game after the doctors are presumed all dead, then we will be forced to presume that you are alive as a scum team member. Because the mafia will need to get rid of night killing roles, they will target you on the chance that you are telling the truth.

More scummy behavior from Amb. I don't like the blatant fishing and drawing attention to Twito's statements about killing amb.

FoS:Amb

@Amb, from what i know of Twito (he's in nearly all my games), he is not the sort of player who will claim in the first round, whilst miles from a lynch.

errr, no, I don't think so....

FoS:Blackmage

No Lynch is not never good. Its actually a very good play on day 1 when a deadline is looming and no particular player appears scummier than others. There is no point in risking outing town roles or lynching poorly in that situation. Of course it has to be a last ditch thing, not the first point of call.

Once we get a vote count, I'll reconsider my vote.

FoS:Amb

Count 2.

By page 7 I think between Amb or Battle Mage, one is scum.

Post 180 makes me suspicious of Theopor. Dismissing a serial killer all together is dangerous because of only one night kill.

Post 195, i'm suspicious of Amb. Way to much BM defense. Way to much wifom. Way to uncommital.

Post 206, Yellow Bounder is accusing someone of... being to active on a bandwagon. He also in the same post admits it's a good argument. WTF!?!

FoS:Yellowbounder

I doubt the scum are likely to have defended their GF on day 1. It would be a huge risk to them when he dies, because they would come under cop scrutiny at night and pressure during the day. Anyone defending a position of not wanting to vote LG yesterday can be left for later. Blaise players who arent one way or another make for interesting targets as well. At the moment I wouldnt be upset by a Scotmany bandwagon.

It might be good to look at the first votes cast as some scum do vote themselves early on as a tell. I have a feeling Livingod may have that tell too, but thats to be checked out.

I want to go back and find out who commented on Livingod's bandwagon being slow because he might be scum. It was a great observation at the time, but i'm wondering if a scumboy said it because they knew the reason was true?

Look at all this wifomy goodness! Instead of being suspicious of those late on a bandwagon, he's suspicious of the ones on there earlier! Hey, didn't Cheesefan just shoot down an argument from Battle Mage that some he said were on last were actually on early?

I'm saying this is CRAPLOGIC.

Vote Twito for "The wagon on livingod lacking speed just proves that it's on scum."
1. Potentially sounds like inside knowledge
2. He was late on the bandwagon himself. Does his statement apply equally to him?
3. Besideswhich there wasn't evidence of any description. Someone had to be lynched and we got lucky. The lack of speed on any bandwagon can be attributed to 'Town' players who don't honestly know if the target is scum.

What about kelly? She said the same thing. I think this is not a very good argument....

Theopor is full of omgusy goodness in post 222.

I know OMGUS isn't a scumtell, I am mostly refering to the fact that the time was taken to state that no more discussion is needed on it. That sentance feels not right to me somehow. Also his quote of her entire post just to OMGUS her seems strange to me as well. I guess that really the OMGUS doesn't have to do with my vote, but I feel it is strange that he OMGUSed the way he did.

I'd say an omgus to unsubstantiate an argument, as Theo's was, is scummy.

Scot just kinda repeated the general opinion in post 232

Theo is probably scum, since he just unsubstantiates the wagon, but nothing that actually refutes the arguments that Kelly set out.

Post 249 is full of more omgusy goodness from BM.

People need some thicker skin. (post 270 or so)

If I was mafia (Which I'm not) I wouldn't of been the last one to jump onto the bandwagon, I was suspicious of him for 1. Gut instincts, and 2. Because he hopped on a bandwagon himself and then when the bandwagon was on him he started pointing fingers at the people on his bandwagon claiming them scum because they bandwagoned. This was pretty clear to me, so I went ahead and voted for me. If I need to clarify more, let me know

Wifomy goodness. "If I was scum, I wouldn't be last on!"

FoS:Twito

First he says he wants to lynch DoS. Then he backpedals after Kelly brings up the reason. Then he says he could still get behind a lynch for him.

I don't see the point of voting for Chibo because he's a newbie who lurks....

Good lord, he thinks theres 6 or 7 scum!?!? I doubt it!

of course it counts, but that is not the only reason.
You, and 2 others (cant remember names atm) have been acting increasingly like you are in-cahoots.
I reckon ive stumbled on a scum trio, and you are the leader.

Battle mage confirms he thinks Cheesefan is scummy for attacking his bad logic. This is clearly not a valid reason. Not only that, Cheesefan and "2 others" whose name he can't remember are acting like they are in cahoots together. How about the livingod lynch as the godfather? Seriously, saying people are connected doesn't MEAN they are connected. Give us some proof man.

Panzer is not reading apparently in post 359.

Dont like how Riverwind encourages wagoning in post 368.

Riverwind needs to QUIT WAGONING. (post 381)


Battle mage is not a more experienced player than Kscope.

The case on kscope looks stupid...

Notice how Amb hops on for no reason in post 394

His explanation in post 404 is not very good at all. He voted for someone elses post. Scummy excuse.

Theo is still unsubstantiating the bandwagon on him for no really good reason in post 415.

I don't see a case on KC or Twito either.

KaleiDoscope your poor attempt to defend yourself are noted. It's also nice to get atleast something out of you after you lurking back the beginning of the game. Sadly we caught you, you are scum and about to be lynched.

Errr, there's really nothing for him to defend against....

Twito, could you put forth a clear and concise post on WHY Kscope is scum?

FoS:Twito

A lot of people following Twito does not make him scum. There's only a set amount of scum....clearly not 10....

I hate Theo's post 485.

Not sure about the Panzer/Twito exchange....

alright guys. While it is true that Lowell's been lurking and vote hopping, he has also given relatively good reasons... At the moment I personally think that he's more on the protown

I DEMAND MORE DoS CONTRIBUTION! After suspicion on him died down, he just dissapeared.

LoS

Amb
BM
Possibly DoS

Townish

kelly
Lowell

Everyone else is more on the neutral side at the moment. Twito is a little scummier than some though....

Vote:Amb

[Twito]

Lacking Twito in the townish makes you scum. Unless you concentrated too much on my game at the beginning of day 2 which wasn't oh so beautiful as usually cuz I kinda forgot the game and my suspects.
Still happy with either Lowell or Amb lynch today.

[Kelly Chen]

Quick question

Livingod clearly needs to die. He posted after DoS made the semi-scummy post without saying anything about it, then after Sham notices he votes along.

SCUM

SCUM = VOTE

UNVOTE VOTE: livingod

This is clearly a counterwagon. Livingod was at three. DoS was at 4.

I'm not sure what you're getting at or commenting on here.

[DragonsofSummer]

I DEMAND MORE DoS CONTRIBUTION! After suspicion on him died down, he just dissapeared.

I didn't dissappear. I just don't post unless I have something to add or am commented on in a way that I need to post. This is the way I play. I don't like to needlessly spam threads just to show I am still here. If there is anything in specific you would like me to comment on just ask.

[Amb]

I couldn't resist. Amb has just been... so... SCUMMY.

Vote Twito for swearing. THere is no need to use poor language in this game. Twito is lucky I didn't draw a Vig role.

Scumscumscum. How does swearing make Twito scum? It doesn't.

First of all it is day 1. Given that there was completely nothing to go on, it was a good chance to get rid of a disrespectful player. I have no doubt Twito can play mafia, I simply object to personal insults and needless swearing in a game that is meant to be fun.

Umm.... I assume that is a claim in humour.... Because that's a suicidal post either way? If you continue to survive in this game after the doctors are presumed all dead, then we will be forced to presume that you are alive as a scum team member. Because the mafia will need to get rid of night killing roles, they will target you on the chance that you are telling the truth.

More scummy behavior from Amb. I don't like the blatant fishing and drawing attention to Twito's statements about killing amb.

Excuse me? I did not ask Twito to claim anything. He reacted back in an unexpected fashion - It was out and out dumb play - he either had just claimed vig (and thus was now doomed) or was jesting (and had sown enough doubt that he is probably doomed).

No Lynch is not never good. Its actually a very good play on day 1 when a deadline is looming and no particular player appears scummier than others. There is no point in risking outing town roles or lynching poorly in that situation. Of course it has to be a last ditch thing, not the first point of call.

Once we get a vote count, I'll reconsider my vote.

My attitude towards no lynch is fairly well documented both on GL and Mafiascum. I believe No Lynch to be more tactical than most people make out. A no lynch when you are scum is exceptionally bad except when its your team member on the firing line. (I was posting as ambic previously if you care to check that out). I dont see the point in discussing it here, we didnt No Lynch, and Im certainly not trying to push it.

Post 195, i'm suspicious of Amb. Way to much BM defense. Way to much wifom. Way to uncommital.

1. Defending a player who has a poorly based bandwagon is NOT inherently bad. Town can do it as much as Scum. The BM defense was after the day 1 randomness in which I could excuse a poor bandwagon (Because no-one knows anything)
2. You can apply the WIFOM to almost any argument in mafia.

"I might be telling the truth, I might be lying"

- and because I am doing that too often I must be lying????
3. Uncommital. Got a problem with that? What if you voted a doctor later in the game? Would you then be lynched for being too committed? Besides which, my campaign against particular players has been committed. Not getting followers doesn't make me less convinced about particular players scumminess.

I doubt the scum are likely to have defended their GF on day 1. It would be a huge risk to them when he dies, because they would come under cop scrutiny at night and pressure during the day. Anyone defending a position of not wanting to vote LG yesterday can be left for later. Blaise players who arent one way or another make for interesting targets as well. At the moment I wouldnt be upset by a Scotmany bandwagon.

It might be good to look at the first votes cast as some scum do vote themselves early on as a tell. I have a feeling Livingod may have that tell too, but thats to be checked out.

I want to go back and find out who commented on Livingod's bandwagon being slow because he might be scum. It was a great observation at the time, but i'm wondering if a scumboy said it because they knew the reason was true?

Look at all this wifomy goodness! Instead of being suspicious of those late on a bandwagon, he's suspicious of the ones on there earlier! Hey, didn't Cheesefan just shoot down an argument from Battle Mage that some he said were on last were actually on early?

I'm saying this is CRAPLOGIC.

How is saying someone who said "...who commented on Livingod's bandwagon being slow because he might be scum" using Crap Logic? It's the type of disguising statement that scum would use so that it stays under the radar when the scum is lynched. Fact is that anyone on that bandwagon could be scum, and anyone NOT on that bandwagon could be scum. It's completely inconclusive to say exactly where scum are, but far far better to read through the posts and find someone who appears to be scum.

Vote Twito for "The wagon on livingod lacking speed just proves that it's on scum."
1. Potentially sounds like inside knowledge
2. He was late on the bandwagon himself. Does his statement apply equally to him?
3. Besideswhich there wasn't evidence of any description. Someone had to be lynched and we got lucky. The lack of speed on any bandwagon can be attributed to 'Town' players who don't honestly know if the target is scum.

What about kelly? She said the same thing. I think this is not a very good argument....

Perhaps not a great argument based on the number of following votes I got (Which is to say very few). But its better than anything else I have seen to date. (Save Yellowbounders post in which I thought he was onto something)

Notice how Amb hops on for no reason in post 394

I regularly do this when I think the reasons for my vote are obvious. And also when I have nothing else to add. I see now point in paraphrasing all the posts above when making votes, it just adds to the shrapnel in the game. I'll only add something to a vote if needed.

But notice this: When I attacked Twito and gave reasons for why I think he was scum - I got FOS'd. When I followed on another players post, I got FOS'd. Its somewhat pointless Fossing "Notice how Amb hops on for no reason" when I am also being Fossed for doing the exact opposite as well. Damned if you do, and damned if you dont.

[Battle Mage]

err, IH, please dont spell my name completely wrong. I mean wth is Black Mage?
If you continue, i will have to spell your name wrong as well.....




HI! :p

[scotmany12]

Well, I read through everything that I missed. I am set on my vote for amb. I find him to be the scummiest. Nothing will really change my mind, and thus my vote will stay on amb for the rest of the day, unless he claims doc or cop or something. Lowell, eh, might be scum, but amb jumps out more to me.

[PJ.]

I don't like how IH said Lowell was townish without giving reasons. I also don't like how he put Lowell under the most protown player in the game. Seems like shoddy scum propaganda to me.

[IH]

@Kelly-It looked like a counterwagon as I was rereading. I forgot about that, but as I was rereading, it just looked more like he was keeping a wagon equal with whoever was up with Livingod.

It's a little moot now that Livingod is confirmed scum.

First of all it is day 1. Given that there was completely nothing to go on, it was a good chance to get rid of a disrespectful player. I have no doubt Twito can play mafia, I simply object to personal insults and needless swearing in a game that is meant to be fun.

Errrrr, no? It is not acceptable to lynch/kill someone because they are disrespectful. That's the same reason for lynching someone on a stupid meta, or because you just don't like them.

Excuse me? I did not ask Twito to claim anything. He reacted back in an unexpected fashion - It was out and out dumb play - he either had just claimed vig (and thus was now doomed) or was jesting (and had sown enough doubt that he is probably doomed).

Well you were intentionally drawing out a generally ignored statement that could have stayed buried, possibly unearthing a protown role. This is antitown, no?

My attitude towards no lynch is fairly well documented both on GL and Mafiascum. I believe No Lynch to be more tactical than most people make out. A no lynch when you are scum is exceptionally bad except when its your team member on the firing line. (I was posting as ambic previously if you care to check that out). I dont see the point in discussing it here, we didnt No Lynch, and Im certainly not trying to push it.

Well it is a fairly bad stance, even if it is documented. It's just not smart on day 1. There's no reason for it, even with a deadline looming. Like osmeone said earlier, it's only if you can get an extra day out with 1 scum left and an even number of players.

1. Defending a player who has a poorly based bandwagon is NOT inherently bad. Town can do it as much as Scum. The BM defense was after the day 1 randomness in which I could excuse a poor bandwagon (Because no-one knows anything)
2. You can apply the WIFOM to almost any argument in mafia. "I might be telling the truth, I might be lying" - and because I am doing that too often I must be lying????
3. Uncommital. Got a problem with that? What if you voted a doctor later in the game? Would you then be lynched for being too committed? Besides which, my campaign against particular players has been committed. Not getting followers doesn't make me less convinced about particular players scumminess.

1.I'm pretty sure it was not a bad wagon, mostly because BM has used/probably will again use so much bad logic.
2.I simply found this scummy. When I have more time I will go back and quote the specific post.
3.I believe this solidifies my belief you are scum. Being uncomittal is scummy for the main reason, that no matter WHAT that players alignment, you look clean. It is not something I find protown players to do.

How is saying someone who said "...who commented on Livingod's bandwagon being slow because he might be scum" using Crap Logic? It's the type of disguising statement that scum would use so that it stays under the radar when the scum is lynched. Fact is that anyone on that bandwagon could be scum, and anyone NOT on that bandwagon could be scum. It's completely inconclusive to say exactly where scum are, but far far better to read through the posts and find someone who appears to be scum.

Err, it was because you were trying to accuse people who were on the livingod wagon as something scummy. This is stupid IMO, and craplogic, as I stated. not only that, it seemed like you were trying to continue BattleMage's argument, just the page before, about people on the livingod wagon. He said they were on late, but Cheesefan said they were on earlier.

After that, you come and say "hey, lets take a closer look at those who were on earlier. The scum probably won't be the late ones on the wagon, because that looks like they're defending him too much. Then they'd get investigated by a cop!"

Does anyone see WHY the above is not a very well thought out argument? Or am I just crazy?

But notice this: When I attacked Twito and gave reasons for why I think he was scum - I got FOS'd. When I followed on another players post, I got FOS'd. Its somewhat pointless Fossing "Notice how Amb hops on for no reason" when I am also being Fossed for doing the exact opposite as well. Damned if you do, and damned if you dont.

It's not just the actions Amb, by hopping on a wagon, and hopping off one. There's a scummy way to do both. I thought you should know that.

Dearest Panzer Jagger. Please read.

alright guys. While it is true that Lowell's been lurking and vote hopping, he has also given relatively good reasons... At the moment I personally think that he's more on the protown

[ChannelDelibird]

#12 Vote Count:

Lowell- 5 (Twito, theopor_COD, Rand Althor, DragonsofSummer, panzerjager)
Amb- 5 (scotmany12, Kelly Chen, OverTheUnder, Lowell, IH)

KaleiÐoscøpe- 2 (yellowbounder, Cheesefan)
Battle Mage- 2 (Riverwind23, KaleiÐoscøpe)
Riverwind23- 1 (Battle Mage)
yellowbounder- 1 (mole)
OverTheUnder- 1 (~N9V~)

Not voting (1): Amb

10 to lynch.

[Twito]

First of all it is day 1. Given that there was completely nothing to go on, it was a good chance to get rid of a disrespectful player. I have no doubt Twito can play mafia, I simply object to personal insults and needless swearing in a game that is meant to be fun.

How does saying "Oh fuck" for example reduse the fun in the games? Notice that we do not have a system to ban swearing as swearing isn't actually sucking fun out of games.
Determine needfull swearing.

I don't like how IH said Lowell was townish without giving reasons. I also don't like how he put Lowell under the most protown player in the game. Seems like shoddy scum propaganda to me.

he made up some reasons but looks like shoddy scum propaganda to me too.

IH is giving kinda scummy wibe actually. I would prefer Lowell lynch atm.

[PJ.]

I read both of his post 3 times. I see no reason that makes Lowell less scum just a buncha of crap saying "Amb is a dirty scum and I need to save Lowell cause we are buddies" Not to mention did anyone notice Lowell asking to be saved by IH. This is another reason I think they are buddies Lowell said "rescue me cause I am playing scummy" and IH is like "Alright, let make a bunch of craplogic points and never get to the fact that you are not scummy but let's distract them by saying Amb is scummy."

Unvote,Vote:IH

[PJ.]

EBWOP: To reply to that part about Lowell having reasons to vote hop. Yeah they were bad reasons all trying to comply with the town. Did you notice everyone he voted was the only band wagon larger or relativly close to the size his own bandwagon. He hasn't been voting for scum, he was been trying to redirect attention from him to the next best wagon. When it didn't work he voted Twito to try to "unsubstantiate" the arguement with OMGUS. Please enlighten me IH, why is this not scummy behavior and why shouldn't we send you to be lynched for defending him(with bad reasoning and shoddy propaganda).

[Amb]

As much as I don't like the logic IH is using to incriminate me, I would be surprised if it is coming from a scum player. To me it reads like a genuine town attempt at finding scum.

[IH]

Ok Panzer. I am staunchly defending a scumbuddy. So instead of you voting for who you think is scum, you're voting for someone who you think is defending scum. very nice.

May I also state, that I find Lowell to be playing all... lowell-ee.

They did not look like him "trying to comply with the town" during my reread, or through the filter.

I don't get how his vote hopping has been distracting from his wagon the whole time, as you seem to state in you EBWOP. There hasn't been a giant lowell wagon the whole game. It's relatively exclusive to the last few pages. Kthx.

Please stop calling it "shoddy propoganda" because that is a retarded term.

Panzer you are not exactly using good reasoning to counter my "bad reasoning"

[Kelly Chen]

I also had the thought that Lowell might be playing lowelly.

I've only played with him in Switch Mafia, where I'm pretty sure I would've thought he was scum if I hadn't been scum myself.

[PJ.]

Yeah he only replaced someone in the last few pages, Kthnx. He only started vote hoping due to people applying pressure and starting a wagon on him. And you arn't using any reasoning to defend yourself from my reasoning. All your are saying is Lowell is Lowell so he can play like scum and be town. If he acts like scum, talks like scum, and feels like scum chances are Loweel is scum. Please learn how to spell "propaganda."

Unvote, Vote:Lowell, FoS:IH

[PJ.]

EBWOP: The reason I voted you isn't because you are defending scum. It is because you are defending scum without any reasoning. When a town defends scum, he tends to have actual evidence, not a sentence saying "I don't feel Lowell is scum" and ten later say he is just playing like him. Scum please bus your buddy.

[IH]

Quit trying to be Twito btw, you can't pull it off.

[PJ.]

I'm not Twito, I know this. It just makes sense. Scum should bus Lowell.

[Twito]

IH do you mind if I ask, are you scum? Please answer honestly they won't believe you if you say you are scum and if you say you are town they are just gonna think you are liying. Tell me truth.

[Lowell]

EBWOP: To reply to that part about Lowell having reasons to vote hop. Yeah they were bad reasons all trying to comply with the town. Did you notice everyone he voted was the only band wagon larger or relativly close to the size his own bandwagon. He hasn't been voting for scum, he was been trying to redirect attention from him to the next best wagon. When it didn't work he voted Twito to try to "unsubstantiate" the arguement with OMGUS. Please enlighten me IH, why is this not scummy behavior and why shouldn't we send you to be lynched for defending him(with bad reasoning and shoddy propaganda).

You're starting to tick me off. I vote-hopped because no one was close to lynch and I just joined the game. And, FTR, IH has me in his "pro-town" list because I'm pro-town. I don't think that fact should exonerate him, but it'll be worth noting down the road.

Your unwillingness to seriously consider another option is NOT good for the town. Critique my vote-hopping if you will, but at least I'm tyring to get people involved. You're either willingly or unwittingly allowing scum to hide a lot easier thanks to your crusade on me. Look around again, please.

Also, if you think ANYTHING I've done has "drawn attention from me" you're crazy. If anyhting I've gone out of my way to court that attention. Call that WIFOM and vote me if you want, but at least get your reasons straight.