Mini 392: Jungle Republic - Game over!

[Yosarian2]

Either of you have any actual reason for that?

Yes. My original reasons and the fact that you're pretending Cadre wasn't scummy.

Zind's vote is however making me reconsider as I'd still rather lynch Zind.

Well, as I know Cadre wasn't scum, perhaps I have a different perspective, but I don't think he was especally scummy. He had completly rational reasons for his early day 1 vote, as even Spontiac admitted. After that, he basically stopped posting content; he had a few brief posts that said very little, followed by complete inactivity and having to be replaced. Lurking can be a scum tell, sure, but when someone just basically stops playing it's usually more of a sign that real life things are interfering.

[Zindaras]

Note: the above is my main reason. There are many smaller ones, among those the Day 1 lynch and such.

[Yosarian2]

I do believe I've outlined my reasons for finding you scummy before. Sprontie recapped it pretty well, in my opinion:

My question is...why have you done to try and find scum? All you've done is throw a couple of fos'es then follow it up with a post or 2. After that you leave is and just start pointing out other people's ideas and thowing in a bit of your own. I have no problem with strategy discussions, but fact is that's all you're doing (besides defending yourself). You've hardly made any effort to finding scum.

(shrug) If I think I've found scum, I usually try to keep the focus on that person to the exclusion of all else, which is what I did on day 2 and day 3. And I'm absolutly convinced I've found another scum today in Spontiac. Just forget everything I've said and go back and read through his posts, and I'm sure you'll see why, if you're not actually his scum partner.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Dude, Yos, Cadre made up some crap about gut and then rode it to SL's lynch, even though his early vote was mostly based on his own inability to recognize sarcasm.

[Yosarian2]

Dude, Yos, Cadre made up some crap about gut and then rode it to SL's lynch, even though his early vote was mostly based on his own inability to recognize sarcasm.

...

There's so many things wrong with that, I don't even know where to begin. Did you read ANY of my posts?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Yeah, yeah, it's an oversimplification and he also had some semi-rational reasons, but it's basically true.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, yeah, it's an oversimplification and he also had some semi-rational reasons, but it's basically true.

He had rational reasons, certanly as rational as one would expect during that part of day 1, and I don't know why you insist on calling SL's origional comment "sarcasm".

SL never said that it was just "sarcasm", and while he was probably partly joking, it was also one of those "hey, let's poke at this player with a quasi-attack and see if he reacts in order to get the game going" type of posts. It's a somewhat subtle tactic, and I wouldn't really expect a newbie like Cadre to be able to tell the difference between that an and actual attack, especally as no one, not even SL, ever bothered to explain it to him.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Nai said it was sarcasm, so it was explained to him.

Those reasons were decent enough for that time of Day, but not much more than that and he stuck to his guns and to his "gut" and rode it to a lynch.

[Yosarian2]

Nai said it was sarcasm, so it was explained to him.

Um, but it wasn't sarcasm, and some third person jumping in to try to explain the comments of SL for him wouldn't make me less suspicious of him anyway.

Those reasons were decent enough for that time of Day, but not much more than that and he stuck to his guns and to his "gut" and rode it to a lynch.

So, again; his vote was fine, but you think I'm scum simply because a semi-lurking newbie didn't unvote when you think he should have during a day 1 bandwagon? And that's the best thing you guys have to go on on day 4?

Other people who were on the SL bandwagon:

Thestatusquo: scummy pointless hammer drop
friday-13th (now Norinel): Never gave a real reason at all
Lucresia (now you, CES):Never gave a good reason for his SL vote other then "erratic behavior" and bad language.
Kingpin: Voted mostly because of his "flippant play" and his "errant antics"

So out of everyone who was on the wagon who is still alive, I think Cadre's reasons were better then any one else's reasons; at least they were directly game-related and were actual scumtells. So, really, why am I the one getting run up for this crap?

[sprontalic]

You already did agree that his reasons for voting were rational. The only debating ground you've got left to stand on is some kind of artifical division you're trying to create between "good enough to vote for" and "good enough to not unvote as the bandwagon looks like it might head towards a lynch", which is a rather flimsy distintion to try to make on day 1.

There is a clear distinction between good enough to vote and good enough to lynch. Good enough to vote = voting someone then pressure them for further evidence. Good enough to lynch = good enough to say they are scum. Just because it's day one doesn't mean you should do a half-assed job and lynch someone whose done something the slightest bit scummy. What SL did was worthy of a beginning day 1 vote because it was something where there was nothing. But that wagon generated lots of discussion, hence by the end of it it was no longer a valid reason to vote or even lynch him with. By sticking to a half-assed reason (which was that he placed a second vote and made one suspicious post) and carrying it through to the lynch shows that he throw his vote into the pot, then sat around and waited till the lynch happened without doing anything to try and stop it. This is lurking at it's worst.

That is true; I didn't feel like i had a good idea of who the islamists were at the start of this day, and I wasn't going to go tearing off half-cocked in some random direction a lynch or lose. In this kind of situation, the scum usually give themselves away by acting differently then town would in a lynch or lose, and that's what I was waiting for before I made my move.

So you're going to catch scum by lurking? What a useful strategy! Theres no need to vote for someone to try and catch scum. Look at what CES has been doing, look at what Zindaras has been doing, look at what I've been doing. We've been rereading past post, looking for links and questioning people over past actions.

That

is scum hunting, not sitting around and waiting for something to happen.

Well, I'm sure that some of the FOS's you made were attempts to distance yourself from your scum partners; usually when a scum atttacks large numbers of people like that they're not all good guys. However, I suspect that the majority of your attacks were attempts to spread suspicion as widely as possible. etc

So you're speculating. Well you continue doing that because I can't exactly defend against dellusion.

Scum often defend townies to try to look more townie-ish, and to "make a friend". You defending one person who was townie, while attacking everyone else in the town, does not prove anything.

I'm not trying to say that it proves my innocence. I'm using it to prove that I'm not "planting suspicion, then jumping on when the wagon has gained momentum".

In both cases, you had attacked the person early and spread suspicion about them, but didn't join the bandwagon until it was clear that they were going to be lynched.

Ummm no. I never voted for LB hence technically I never "joined" the wagon. As for germy notice how I finished day 2 with a vote on him. Technically I was on the wagon before day 3 even started, hence one of the first. And I'm sorry that I didn't wake up at 3am in the morning just so I can be the first to vote germy.

as no one, not even SL, ever bothered to explain it to him.

As for the idea that he must have been either losing interest or was busy or something like that; well, something like that must have happened, as he needed to be replaced. That seems obveous.

I made a brief explanation of why I saw it as sarcasm (post 78 or something). If Cadre didn't agree he should've said something. He had posted 4 contentless posts between then and the lynch, two of which were posts saying "I'm here but I have nothing to say". This is not what you say when you're losing interest/busy hence I don't buy these two excuses.

Other people who were on the SL bandwagon:

As I've said, I believe 5/7 on the SL wagon were scum. Friday, Lucresia and Cadre for being the first 3 to hop onto the wagon in quick succession. TSQ for his hammer, and LB. Then we have the two misled townies germy and Kingpin.

Everyone who was on that wagon had bad reasoning to join it, hence I believe a pattern is the more reliable thing to look for here, leading me to believe that the first three are the islamists.

[Yosarian2]

There is a clear distinction between good enough to vote and good enough to lynch. Good enough to vote = voting someone then pressure them for further evidence. Good enough to lynch = good enough to say they are scum. Just because it's day one doesn't mean you should do a half-assed job and lynch someone whose done something the slightest bit scummy. What SL did was worthy of a beginning day 1 vote because it was something where there was nothing. But that wagon generated lots of discussion, hence by the end of it it was no longer a valid reason to vote or even lynch him with. By sticking to a half-assed reason (which was that he placed a second vote and made one suspicious post) and carrying it through to the lynch shows that he throw his vote into the pot, then sat around and waited till the lynch happened without doing anything to try and stop it. This is lurking at it's worst.

Like I said, at worst he was guilty of lurking. Which is why he was eventually replaced. I think he was the least scummy person ON the bandwagon, and it's just stupid to go after me, now, because of that.

So you're going to catch scum by lurking? What a useful strategy!

BS. When have I ever lurked?

Theres no need to vote for someone to try and catch scum. Look at what CES has been doing, look at what Zindaras has been doing, look at what I've been doing. We've been rereading past post, looking for links and questioning people over past actions.

That

is scum hunting, not sitting around and waiting for something to happen.

Yes, I am looking at what you, CES, and Zinderas are doing. I am also convinced that 2 out of the 3 of you are islamist scum, so that dosn't prove much.

Well, I'm sure that some of the FOS's you made were attempts to distance yourself from your scum partners; usually when a scum atttacks large numbers of people like that they're not all good guys. However, I suspect that the majority of your attacks were attempts to spread suspicion as widely as possible. etc

So you're speculating. Well you continue doing that because I can't exactly defend against dellusion.

Heh. I'm taking a look at your behavior, and yes, I'm speculating on your motives based on that. Your behavior now, in a lynch or lose situation, is a hell of a lot more useful to me in figuring out scum then trying to read the mind of a newbie who got replaced way back on day 1.

I'm not trying to say that it proves my innocence. I'm using it to prove that I'm not "planting suspicion, then jumping on when the wagon has gained momentum".

Um, but that's exactally what you have been doing. Defending one townie on day 1 dosn't undue any of that.

[quote="sprontalic"
Ummm no. I never voted for LB hence technically I never "joined" the wagon.[/quote]

Umm yes, you did vote for lying brian. You voted for him after I did. You later left the bandwagon, perhaps knowing it would go to a lynch and not wanting to be on it when that happened? I'm not sure your motives, but you DID vote for lying brian, you DID join that bandwagon, and you are now lying about it.

As for germy notice how I finished day 2 with a vote on him. Technically I was on the wagon before day 3 even started, hence one of the first. And I'm sorry that I didn't wake up at 3am in the morning just so I can be the first to vote germy.

Right; you started going after germy on day 2, based on his links to lying brian. Which again dosn't make a lot of sense; if you think person A is scum, and you think person B is linked to person A, you lynch person A first. Unless you are trying to plant suspicion and set up lynches in advance.

I made a brief explanation of why I saw it as sarcasm (post 78 or something). If Cadre didn't agree he should've said something. He had posted 4 contentless posts between then and the lynch, two of which were posts saying "I'm here but I have nothing to say". This is not what you say when you're losing interest/busy hence I don't buy these two excuses.

Well, whatever. He was a lurking newbie. If you can really get the town to lynch me because I replaced a lurking newbie three days ago, then I suppose the town probably deserves to lose.

As I've said, I believe 5/7 on the SL wagon were scum. Friday, Lucresia and Cadre for being the first 3 to hop onto the wagon in quick succession. TSQ for his hammer, and LB. Then we have the two misled townies germy and Kingpin.

Everyone who was on that wagon had bad reasoning to join it, hence I believe a pattern is the more reliable thing to look for here, leading me to believe that the first three are the islamists.

So...why not vote for one of the more suspicious people on the bandwagon? Perhaps you're some kind of psychic who knows with certainty exactly who are scum and who are not scum, but most normal townies would actually go after the person who is MOST suspicious first. I think your attacks on me, as opposed to one of the other, more scummy looking people on the bandwagon, or one of the other people you've FOS'd, are pure scummy opportunism; you're attacking me because you think you can get me lynched, no more and no less.

[sprontalic]

BS. When have I ever lurked?

Sitting on the sidelines and not providing any input is as bad as lurking.

Yes, I am looking at what you, CES, and Zinderas are doing. I am also convinced that 2 out of the 3 of you are islamist scum, so that dosn't prove much.

Why didn't you provide your input before?

Umm yes, you did vote for lying brian. You voted for him after I did. You later left the bandwagon, perhaps knowing it would go to a lynch and not wanting to be on it when that happened? I'm not sure your motives, but you DID vote for lying brian, you DID join that bandwagon, and you are now lying about it.

Yes I voted for him once...in fact I voted for him twice throughout the course of the game. But the point is I wasn't on the wagon when he was lynched. Also the only people I really attacked prior to day 3 was Lyingbrian, TSQ and germy. Your theory doesn't even fit in with that time frame.

Right; you started going after germy on day 2, based on his links to lying brian. Which again dosn't make a lot of sense; if you think person A is scum, and you think person B is linked to person A, you lynch person A first. Unless you are trying to plant suspicion and set up lynches in advance.

By the time I started going after germy, Lyingbrian = dead anyway. I don't believe in wasting time so I moved onto my next suspicion. And it wasn't just his link to Lyingbrian, it was also that he support Lyingbrian right up until he claimed/was counterclaimed when his position changed completely.

So...why not vote for one of the more suspicious people on the bandwagon? Perhaps you're some kind of psychic who knows with certainty exactly who are scum and who are not scum, but most normal townies would actually go after the person who is MOST suspicious first. I think your attacks on me, as opposed to one of the other, more scummy looking people on the bandwagon, or one of the other people you've FOS'd, are pure scummy opportunism; you're attacking me because you think you can get me lynched, no more and no less.

TSQ is the next most suspicious person, but I think he's a commie so lynching him would be a mistake. So it's between you, friday (Norinel) and Lucresia (CES). As far as I'm concerned Friday and Lucresia were both terrible lurkers that didn't do much. Cadre also lurked later in the game so they're all just as scummy on the account. However It's Cadre's poor reasoning that is making me go for you as opposed to anyone. But as I said multiple times today, I don't care which one of you gets lynch, as long as one of you is lynched today I'm happy. So yes I am going for you because it'd be easier for you to be lynched. As for as I'm concerned though, the outcome will be the same.

[Yosarian2]

Why didn't you provide your input before?

Because I hadn't realized what you were doing until you voted in a lynch or lose situation for an easy target with a really bad reason. How many times do I have to say that

Yes I voted for him once...in fact I voted for him twice throughout the course of the game. But the point is I wasn't on the wagon when he was lynched. Also the only people I really attacked prior to day 3 was Lyingbrian, TSQ and germy. Your theory doesn't even fit in with that time frame.

You were prepared, from the very start of the game, to lynch multiple people. You laid the groundwork for the lying brian lynch and for the germy lynch. Then you went after kingpin. After that, you went after Zinderas. After that, you went after me, and said you were willing to lynch either, CES, Norinel, or me.

Whenever you went after a bad lynch, like the germy lynch or the vote against me, your defense afterwords was "Well, i had been going after that person for days!" You've been going after almost everyone for days, probably to set you up so you could go after anyone today.


At the start of the day today, this was your feeling towards me.

I've had suspicious feelings towards Cadre from the start, though not much from Yosarian2, but since many found him suspicious, it's probably not unreasonable to say he's scum. I'm thinking that he's not commie though, so I'm willing to tip that he's an islamist.

...

I'm tip that Kingpin and Zindaras are townies. I'm getting townie vibes from both of them so based on hunch I'm going to go with Norinel and Lucresia as the other two islamists.

You had "suspicious feelings towards cadre", and "some other people" found me suspicious, so you thought it was "not unreasonable" to say I was scum. And you had "hunches" about Norniel and Lucresia.

And yet, you're willing to go from that to being willing to lynch any of the three of us in a lynch or lose situation? You're attacking Cadre for voting based on "gut', but I've got to say that his reasons for his day 1 vote were much stronger then the logic behind all of your suspicions today.

TSQ is the next most suspicious person, but I think he's a commie so lynching him would be a mistake. So it's between you, friday (Norinel) and Lucresia (CES). As far as I'm concerned Friday and Lucresia were both terrible lurkers that didn't do much. Cadre also lurked later in the game so they're all just as scummy on the account. However It's Cadre's poor reasoning that is making me go for you as opposed to anyone. But as I said multiple times today, I don't care which one of you gets lynch, as long as one of you is lynched today I'm happy. So yes I am going for you because it'd be easier for you to be lynched. As for as I'm concerned though, the outcome will be the same.

I'm sure the outcome would be the same "as far as you're concerned".

[sprontalic]

Because I hadn't realized what you were doing until you voted in a lynch or lose situation for an easy target with a really bad reason. How many times do I have to say that

I'm not talking about that. You said you found Zindaras and I scummy...why say it now but not before? Don't tell me one post made you change your perpsective all of a sudden.

You were prepared, from the very start of the game, to lynch multiple people. You laid the groundwork for the lying brian lynch and for the germy lynch. Then you went after kingpin. After that, you went after Zinderas. After that, you went after me, and said you were willing to lynch either, CES, Norinel, or me.

I attacked Kingpin for about 1 post, since then I'd abandoned that train of thought. I attacked Zindaras for a while but have since abandoned that too. If I really wanted to just kill anyone surely I'd hop onto the Zindaras wagon, which had been going on for a while. Just like the SL wagon I could just hop on and not be suspected of a thing. Also I have already affirmed that my stance is pretty much established when I posted the list. If I were going to do such a clusterbomb method, don't you think it'd be more likely that I'd make my position more vague than I did.

Whenever you went after a bad lynch, like the germy lynch or the vote against me, your defense afterwords was "Well, i had been going after that person for days!" You've been going after almost everyone for days, probably to set you up so you could go after anyone today.

I never said I was after you for ages. I only started looking your way in the middle of today (well seriously anyway).

You had "suspicious feelings towards cadre", and "some other people" found me suspicious, so you thought it was "not unreasonable" to say I was scum. And you had "hunches" about Norniel and Lucresia.

And yet, you're willing to go from that to being willing to lynch any of the three of us in a lynch or lose situation? You're attacking Cadre for voting based on "gut', but I've got to say that his reasons for his day 1 vote were much stronger then the logic behind all of your suspicions today.

Nothing the three of you has said today has challenged my feelings. In fact it has reaffirmed them. Hence I'm more happy then ever to have any of you lynched today.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

So, again; his vote was fine, but you think I'm scum simply because a semi-lurking newbie didn't unvote when you think he should have during a day 1 bandwagon? And that's the best thing you guys have to go on on day 4?

His vote wasn't fine, it was acceptable. Don't twist my words, Yossyboy. And I'm not really suspicious of you because of Cadre's play, but rather the fact that you're pretending there was nothing wrong with it.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Unvote, vote: Yosarian2

, that last episode of word-twisting sealed it for me.

*hopes he's not wrong*

[Yosarian2]

Crap, crap, crap. That's 3 votes, right?

Fine. You caught me.

I'M THE COMMUNIST

.

As soon as I joined the game, I decided that I was going to have to bus Lying Brian, as he was clearly going to be lynched anyway, but I made sure that the cop was outed first before we lynched him.

Now, can we get those votes off me and lynch an islamist today? I did a no-kill last night because I really thought we'd have a good chance at lynching an islamist today, and because the numbers worked out better that way for me. But if we lynch a non-islamist today (me), we all lose. If one of the three people voting for me is not an islamist, could you PLEASE get your vote off of me before the third islamist logs on?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Unvote

Explain to me how you can still win.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

(Also, I love it when scum confess(even if Yos might be lying), it's awesome)

[Zindaras]

Unvote

[Kelly Chen]

Vote Count

1 - Yosarian2 (sprontalic)
1 - sprontalic (Yosarian2)

not voting: Thestatusquo, Apeiron, Norinel, Cogito Ergo Sum, Zindaras

With 7 alive it is 4 to lynch!

Note: If the next player lost is not an Islamist, the Islamists win.

Deadline for

Thursday Feb 1

at this time. If no one has been lynched by this point, we will have a night.

[Yosarian2]

Unvote

Explain to me how you can still win.

Simple. The town lynches an islamist today. Tonight, I try to kill a townie. If I manage to do that, then tommorow, there will be 5 people; me, 2 townies, and 2 islamists. The town again is forced to lynch an islamist in order to not lose. I attempt to kill another townie that night, and if I manage to do that, that puts in in an endgame with me (the communist), 1 islamist, and 1 townie. At which point, if I manage to do all that, the last townie is basically the kingmaker; he can lynch me and let the islamist win, lynch the communist and let me win, or no lynch and then I win if I kill the islamist or lose if I kill the townie.

That's how I could still win. That's why I didn't kill last night, to try keep the town in a numerical situation where they would be forced to lynch an islamist every single day. Of course, it only works if I manage to figure out who all the islamists are; if I kill an islamist at night by mistake, the town lynches me the next day and probably wins; or if we lynch a townie (or me) during the day then the islamists win.

In any case, though, if we don't lynch an islamist today then both me and the town lose on the spot. If we do, then everyone is still in the game.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Nah, that sounds unlikely.

Anyhow, what about a no lynch today? If Yosarian2 is the Communist, he can kill Zislamist for us and if he's not, the real Communist can kill Yosarian2 for us. Right?

[Zindaras]

Nah, that sounds unlikely.

Anyhow, what about a no lynch today? If Yosarian2 is the Communist, he can kill Zislamist for us and if he's not, the real Communist can kill Yosarian2 for us. Right?

1) Even if Yommunist would agree to something like this, he'd probably be killing sprontalic, if anyone, looking at his suspicion list. Regardless, you're pushing me for a lynch, while there is no real support for this.

2) It would be suicidal of Yommunist to agree with this.

[Zindaras]

The correct play now is to No Lynch. If Yommunist is smart, he won't kill anyone. If he's lying, the real Communist can kill him.