Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[DavidParker]

/bandwagon case that I like

Vote: Noc

[havingfitz]

I suspect Nocmen as well but I'm not going to put him at L-1 just a few hours into D3. Would at least like to hear thoughts from our two new players. Maybe have D3 last a bit to refine reads for today as well as tomorrow+.

I'm v/LA until this weekend

(when I am also typically v/LA) due to holiday/work commitments.

[Grump]

So by the time I received my PM and got here, it was night already! Major disappointment.
Anyways, replacing in a game is slightly disorienting for a moment. Quick questions are in order to get my bearings straight!

@Noc: What was with the sudden vote change to singer, without any reasoning behind it? #511
@Rhinox: Why do you want to see Corvuus dead? Any reads I didn't catch on my read of the thread?
@DP: In your ISO, I saw you were going after Anti but couldn't find any reason. Gut feeling or was there something behind it?

Just give me a few pages at most and I'll start contributing quite a bit more hopefully.

[Fishythefish]

Day 3, Votecount 1

Nocmen (3) - Rhinox, Empking, DavidParker

Not Voting (6) - Corvuus, neko2086, Nocmen, Mr Wright, Grump, havingfitz

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

havingfitz's V/LA is noted.

[Fishythefish]

Because of a combination of my access and the festive period, you get a Christmas present of a longer deadline today. Deadline will fall on

Monday 27th December

at

11:00pm GMT

.

[neko2086]

DP, would you mind humoring us with some sort of reasoning? The way you continue to escape any scrutiny by the others really amazes me.

If Noc is going to be put under pressure for swinging to a mislynch wagon for no reason (which he should), DP should as well, as he was the one to tie the wagons up again with no reason given whatsoever. I preferred a DP lynch yesterday, and I'd really like to revisit this case.

It's end-of-semester time, and I'm sure I'm not the only one here swamped with work, but I'll have to put together a neater case later. I need to think this over more anyway, rather than go strictly by gut, but at any rate, he can't keep going unnoticed.

Vote: DavidParker

What I'd like most from you, right now, is some insight into your recent voting choices.

[Mr Wright]

Hello everyone.

I'm still in the process of reading the game and will post my thoughts tomorrow. Please don't do anything too hasty regarding the Nocmen wagon. I'd like to post my opinion on the matter and I think Nocmen should be given a chance to explain himself.

[Nocmen]

Wait, I'm scum because I've gone against the people who aren't contributing and are the most likely to hurt the town? Look at singers posts, it was active lurking at it's finest.
And look at where we were at at the end of the day, I needed to ensure that we didn't have another no lynch. Am I really supposed to trust that people would hammer if needed to when they didnt Day 1?

Moving on now, to the next scum:

Vote: Corvuus

[Corvuus]

I guess I should have hammered myself when I had the chance.

--

Noc: i think the main problem isn't so much DP/day was going to be no lynch but Singer was/did vote for me, so you could have still lynched me. You still haven't answered the majority of what people have asked you about.

EMP: Why would Noc's flip be reflective of me?

I'm still open for a EMP/Rhinox lynch... and while part of me still thinks DP is crazy town.... he probably should be lynched just to be safe.

DP: Why did you switch your vote and what are you actually thinking?

vote DP

mod: I'll be VLA-ish Dec 11th to Dec25th ish area. Still able to post, login though.

Corv

[Mr Wright]

I think Corvuus is the most suspicious player in this game so far. Especially his 'self-hammer' statements rub me the wrong way. Corvuus, it was you versus Singersigner yesterday. In your last serious post of that day, post 499, you make some minor accusations towards Singersigner. If you were a little bit suspicious of her, why didn't you vote her? If your only goal was to prevent a no lynch, then every lynch should have been acceptable to you. Voting for a person you're even a very tiny bit suspicious of makes more sense than waiting for a selfhammer, since you know that you're town (if you're town) but you don't know Singersigner's role.
Today, you post 'I should have hammered myself when I had the chance'. Why is that? Your goal was to prevent a no lynch. There was a lynch after all, so what's wrong?
All this 'selfhammer' stuff seems like one big appeal to emotion to me.

I also don't like his most recent vote on DavidParker. He hasn't mentioned DavidParker-scum at all before today. Yet now he suddenly hops on the wagon with the question 'why did you change your vote?'. This makes no sense. Corvuus, DavidParker is under suspicion now because he switched his vote from you to Singersigner. If you're town, you shouldn't have any problems with DavidParker switching his vote from a townie to another townie.

Vote: Corvuus

vote: Nocmen

As much as it pains me that corvuus is STILL not dead, I think nocmen surpassed corvuus on my scum list due to a few comments at the end of the day

1) voting corvuus and being ok with his lynch d2 by parroting reasons I gave d1 and weren't enough for nocmen to lynch him then.
2) then switching to the singer mislynch

Vote: Noc

Its pretty clear that he's scum with Cor but he has a vote and Cor doesn't.

/bandwagon case that I like

Vote: Noc

If Noc is going to be put under pressure for swinging to a mislynch wagon for no reason (which he should), DP should as well, as he was the one to tie the wagons up again with no reason given whatsoever. I preferred a DP lynch yesterday, and I'd really like to revisit this case.

People, you are all voting on the assumption that Corvuus is scum. If we lynch Nocmen/DavidParker and they flip town, the very suspicious Corvuus is still here. But if we lynch Corvuus and he flips town, we know Nocmen/DavidParker could not have switched their votes to save their 'scumbuddy'. If you believe in a Nocmen/Corvuus or DavidParker/Corvuus scumteam, lynching Corvuus is the logical first step.

While I think Corvuus is scum, I don't think we have suddenly found

three

scum in this voteswapping incident. Nocmen's explanation that he wanted to prevent a no lynch makes perfect sense. However, DavidParker does not have such an excuse. Take a look at post 489.

I realize this is post deadline, and as it stands there are 2 prominent wagons the singer and Coorvus wagon so I'll move my vote to try make sure a nolynch doesnt happen. ANtihero gets off today!

Vote: Coorvus

DavidParker explicitly states that he votes Corvuus to prevent a no lynch. Then at post 501, he swaps to Singersigner, making it 4-4 even. What happened to 'making sure a no lynch doesn't happen'?

[Corvuus]

Was re-reading. Ad most likely would have used his ability on EMP given day 1, which should be block/protect. While it could be that EMP was scum and submitting the nightkill... it isn't that likely. so I'll accept an EMP-town for now. but if he lives too long he should die.

Mr. Wright: You are amusing in that you answer your own question.

I didn't think singer was scum at that point (and given my view on voting to lynch Rhinox as opposed to singer, it should be clear that i was not willing to lynch another person who was likely town over someone who is likely scum) so lynching him is not optimal since I, as you state, am still a very suspicious person to most people here. Me voting to lynch singer (who i was uncertain of, but felt more town than not) versus a lynch of myself is not optimal for town since, if I lived, which i am right now, then my mislynch will simply happen later and on the off-chance of singer being town, it just isn't worth it since singer mislynch will be followed by a corv mislynch... which is what you are trying to do right now. I should have hammered myself since singer-alive is better than Corv-alive for town DESPITE both singer and I both being town.

So you can accuse me of being disingenuous and bemoan the fact that i am still alive, but I think the main issue is DP and, despite everyone saying it, my lynch will not give the info you think it will since info is already there just by me being alive. Especially if you think Noc and DP are scum independent of me.

and per your argument, You think that I should vote Noc to prevent my own wagon/mislynch today as well right? Despite DP's action being much worse than Noc's?

---

I'd still like Rhinox to be dead.
Corvuus

[havingfitz]

I guess I should have hammered myself when I had the chance.

I'm still open for a EMP/Rhinox lynch... and while part of me still thinks DP is crazy town.... he probably should be lynched just to be safe.

Don't like either of the comments above. Based on the two large competing wagons at the end of yesterday I'll give the alternative wagon to yesterday's mislynch a chance. "Just to be safe" -Corv????" Terrible.

VOTE: Corvuus

[Fishythefish]

Day 3, Votecount 2

Nocmen (3) - Rhinox, Empking, DavidParker
Corvuus (3) - Nocmen, Mr Wright, havingfitz
DavidParker (2) - neko2086, Corvuus

Not Voting (1) - Grump

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Corv

[neko2086]

Some comments:

If you're town, you shouldn't have any problems with DavidParker switching his vote from a townie to another townie.

Really? Even if there’s no reason for it? I think what you’re missing is that it’s not just

who

is getting the vote that matters, but the how and the why of that vote. I have a problem with Corv’s vote on DP, myself, which I’ll get to, but you’re misrepresenting me by placing me in the group you address here:

People, you are all voting on the assumption that Corvuus is scum.

Wrong. I’ll explain my case soon.

If we lynch Nocmen/DavidParker and they flip town, the very suspicious Corvuus is still here. But if we lynch Corvuus and he flips town, we know Nocmen/DavidParker could not have switched their votes to save their 'scumbuddy'. If you believe in a Nocmen/Corvuus or DavidParker/Corvuus scumteam, lynching Corvuus is the logical first step.

This is true. If a case is going to be drawn on connections of this sort, Corv really should go first, and with the second quote HF highlighted, I’m feeling much more comfortable with a Corv-lynch today. I’m going to quote it again, because HF missed something:

I'm still open for a EMP/Rhinox lynch... and while part of me still thinks DP is crazy town.... he probably should be lynched just to be safe.

Not only is this a terrible reason to vote somebody, but it does look fairly opportunistic. Corv made a last-ditch effort yesterday to start a completely new Rhinox wagon (which I felt had more of a townie motivation), but now, at the start of a new day when such an effort would be much more feasible, and when he says himself he’d still be open for a Rhinox lynch (or Emp, but then retracts that with nonsensical night choice speculation—why would AD protect emp?), he votes DP, I imagine because the wagon has already been started.

Because of this, and because the situation we’re in really makes most sense with Corv being scum, I actually prefer a Corv-lynch today. I do, however, still want to get a case on DP in before the day is over, and there’s plenty of daytime left, so there’s no sense in putting Corv at L-1 right now.

FOS: Corv

A DP case is forthcoming.

[neko2086]

OK, I see emp has now put Corv at L-1. It's no surprise you're voting him, but what's the rush?

[Empking]

OK, I see emp has now put Corv at L-1. It's no surprise you're voting him, but what's the rush?

No rush, just no delay.

[neko2086]

OK, though you were happy to delay his lynch with a Noc lynch because that’s where the bandwagon was? And there was only one vote on Noc.

Anyway, before anyone hammers Corvuus, I want to get out a case on DP. Obviously, if Corv is scum, it is all the more likely that he or Noc (or both) is his partner. My case on DP really just has to do with his own play, however.

Day 1: DP attracted negative attention early on got a few votes, but then people were happy to chalk him up to being an innocent VI once emp and FA got more attention. DP votes AD through speculation that emp is town, and leaves that vote for the rest of the day. In post 213 he now speculates that singer and noc are scumbuddies, with no justification, even when it’s requested by Noc (who never follows up on this).

Now this is a key post that still bothers me. In 247 he reasserts that he thinks noc and/or singer are scum (still no reasoning), but he also says the FA wagon is the only one with a scummy case attached to it (no real reasoning for this), and yet his vote is still on AD, with a deadline looming. No explanation for why AD is a better vote than any of the other three he mentioned. Suddenly, in post 270, Noc is no longer singer’s scumbuddy (no reason given). Nobody seems to care. At this point, he’s really able to say anything and not have to explain it, and I think he’s starting to take advantage of it.

D1 deadline hits, no lynch, DP says he didn’t know deadline was coming so quickly and he should have voted FA. He later says, in 316 and again in post 393

I simply left my vote there rather than unvoting and moving it to an "actual" wagon because I was still analysing the game to see which lynch I wanted to push of the wagons that were there. I had no idea deadline was upon us, no one was acting with any sense of urgency and there was no real mention of it, so I was happy to see how the game progressed before moving my vote.

I am not sure that I buy this. After post 247, there were 3 posts by Fishy giving a 2 day, 19.5 hr, and 5hr deadline warning. Incognito states that the deadline is fast approaching in 256. There was plenty of warning. Also of note, Noc asks DP why he isn’t going after FA and gets no response (and again, doesn’t follow up. Coaching?).

D2: 306-307DP votes Rhinox, no explanation (much later, he says it’s because he saw a scum slip)
358, says he is Ok with Corv (no reasoning), still wants a Rhinox lynch (no reasoning), and would be ok with a cruelty lynch based on lurking.
373, votes cruelty
Over the course of pages 16-18, DP absolutely refuses to say what he thinks of AD and Nocmen and why he no longer suspects them.
340, votes singer and says antihero is onto something, but doesn’t say what.
Once Rhinox votes antihero, DP votes antihero as well saying he didn’t realize anti replaced cruelty, then moves his vote back to singer because of the deadline, but then moves it back to antihero for no reason(452).

Then, when the wagons are tied between Corvuus and Singer, he votes Corvuus because of the deadline, even though he stated earlier he preferred singer over corvuus. He states that he doesn’t find a singer lynch as likely as a corv lynch, but then he ends up switching his vote to singer, tying up the wagons and leaving the town in a no-lynch position, which he seemed to be wanting to avoid. Suddenly, it’s not up to him who gets lynched, but rather the next person who votes, who happens to be Noc.

His voting on D2 is an absolute mess. I don’t buy that he was ever concerned about deadline, or else he wouldn’t have tied up the wagons again. I think he was concerned with putting himself in the best position at the end of the day. If DP and Corv are both scum, DP may have thought for a moment he would need to bus his partner, then realize that he could potentially save him with a shift to singer’s wagon. If Corv is town, it didn’t really matter where DP had his vote, and he may have simply wanted someone else to have to make the decision. I’m not convinced of this latter scenario, however, so I would still prefer a Corv lynch and have DP reexamined once Corv flips.

Still, there is plenty of discussion to be had. Anyone still think DP is a harmless VI, for example?

[havingfitz]

UNVOTE:
Not liking what I remember seeing from Corv end of yesterday and today but L-1 seems a bit quick. And with two others I strongly suspect atm on the wagon with me I feel a bit dirty. Time to think a bit and see what happens next.

[Nocmen]

So another quick wagon forming up.

Neko: Something I need to look into is DP's interaction with singer. I've been suspicious of him a lot before, but I feel like DP is less likely to be scum now that singer isn't scum. That's what confuses me so far, DP's actions seemed quite like one I'd see from a scum pair, but his actions make that much less sense if singer was town. With the vote switching between singer and corv at the end of the day, I think that it's possible for a Corv/DP pairing, but I need to look more into that.

[Fishythefish]

Day 3, Votecount 3

Corvuus (3) - Nocmen, Mr Wright, Empking
Nocmen (2) - Rhinox, DavidParker
DavidParker (2) - neko2086, Corvuus

Not Voting (2) - Grump, havingfitz

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[DavidParker]

buggah fucking shit

[neko2086]

OK... anything else?

[DavidParker]

Umm, I was completely trashed last night. My apologies.

I realize I switched my vote *nearish* to deadline day 2, but that's because there was still time for a different lynch (ie: singer over Corv) and I felt singer was a better lynch at the time. I knew people would be around for deadline this time as it had been explicitly stated multiple times unlike day 1 where it just came upon us.

Umm as for some of those things u pointed out, I think you'll find you're exaggerating the case a Lot. Such as when I voted rhinox "without explanation", it was just after someone pointed out a scum slip, I believed it was a scum slip too so I voted him, obviously implying I agreed with the previous post.

Your case points are constantly about "he did this, but didn't explain why" or "he said this, but didn't explain why well enough"

You also seem to attack me for changing my mind (ie: in regards to singer vs Corv), as the game goes my opinions and reads change.

[Corvuus]

i dont get why you guys are all calling what i do disingenuous, opportunistic etc. I'm being honest and i don't see how voting DP is opportunistic when Noc L-1, etc. is much more opportunistic and Noc is less guilty for yesterday than DP is. So.... how about all of you voting Noc are opportunistic?

DP as scum isn't the most likely prospect to me but DP-town is extremely bad that despite there being an 80% chance of Rhinox scum and only 30% DP scum, DP should die since he is either a). scum or b). town that is going to vote in lylo for no reason and lose the game just for giggles. So yes, just to be safe, he should die. That and despite what I say and do, you guys aren't going to lynch EMP and Rhinox before you lynch me (and then see a Corv-town flip). My only concern now is for optimizing end-game for town and that involves lynching scum (if DP-scum) or removing horrible town (DP-town). If DP is town, and you mislynch both of us (Corv-town) then it is very likely lylo with a most likely 3 scum team remaining.

I already explained why I should have hammered myself. You can take it or leave it.

----

Jailkeeper is a roleblock + protect. Ad choosing EMP is based on Ad wanting to roleblock EMP, not exactly wanting to protect him. However, I would have expected Ad to want to lynch EMP yet Ad/Scott seemed to think EMP was town. Maybe Ad thought roleblock, Scott thought it protected? Either way, re-reading Ad/Scott doesn't say who he might have targeted but since i am still of the opinion that EMP looks way too scummy for EVERYONE to magically say he is town, then I'll go with my conspiracy theory that scum targeted EMP and know it was blocked/protected. Otherwise this 'confirmation-town-bias' crap makes no sense at all.

------

I highly dislike EVERYONE who has posted saying that they are looking at 'possible buddy'/'scum-interaction' without my flip or reasoning on the person being examined/suspected buddying. Seriously, if you have a problem with DP, then it most likely has NOTHING to do with my alignment. So FoS: everyone who is talking about info via flip/interaction after flip instead of you know, actually scum-hunting. I'm an easy target cause i'm an easy target, and if you are hoping to get info or linkage, it is going to fail miserably since i am town.

Yesterday, you wanted Corv lynch to get info on Noc, DP. Today, you want Corv lynch to get info on Noc, DP. Do you consider the lynch on Noc, DP to get info on Corvuus? No, you don't and it is incredibly scummy for you guys to say and do this and say that it is scummy for me to vote DP when him switching his vote is the entire basis for me still being alive and, since i am town, the only reason DP could have for keeping me alive an extra day (if he is thinking strategy on this) is that scum want to keep me around as an easy mislynch for later. Extra-FoS on those who want to use my alignment (town-flip) as info on Noc and DP since this doesn't make sense since me being town will not alleviate DP of his guilt in flip-flopping, etc.

Ugh, there is so much that I dislike but frankly, you can't all be scum right? Either way, stop trying to play mindgames over my eventual lynch (since i am town, most of it won't matter) and focus on what people are actually doing that is scummy.

EMP is coasting and needs to die. Same with Rhinox. Since none of you want to do anything about obvious scum (and yes, i tried for Rhinox before deadline but you all universely said 'screw you' so i don't see why it would be different now when nothing has really changed and Rhinox hasnt said anything new) and DP's answer, reasoning and what he actually literally did... sucks.

I actually don't understand why you guys are wagon/vote happy on Noc instead of DP when DP caused the problem and Noc is either left holding the bag, or made a very unusual move. I'm inclined towards a Noc-town still at this point and .... not that anyone really cares what I think, I'm still for a EMP-scum, Rhinox-scum, HF-town, Noc-town, DP-jesteriffic. I dislike Neko's recent points, but still inclined towards town. Mr. Wright and Grump... eh. No opinion but depends on what DP really is.


Corv
P.S. may not be able to post for a full real life day or so.